While I agree that industrial production of meat is a massive problem, we wouldn't have livestock at all if there weren't really good reasons: Prior to the steam engine, male cattle were one of...
While I agree that industrial production of meat is a massive problem, we wouldn't have livestock at all if there weren't really good reasons:
Prior to the steam engine, male cattle were one of the best creatures for tilling soil and transporting goods. From there, all other products that came from cows (leather, milk, etc) came naturally as a result of reducing waste and insuring a stead supply of oxen for labor.
All farm animals help contribute to pest control and fertilizing soil. They were meant to eat leaves/roots/bugs, not corn and soy.
I'm 100% behind eliminating industrial meat farms. But I am also 100% in favor of returning to local farming using modern science with more traditional crop rotation, inter cropping, natural fertilizers, and beekeeping.
Meat doesn't need to be removed from our diets. Reduced, yes, but that is largely true of most other foods in the USA as well. But the entire agricultural system needs to be reworked to be more sustainable, and re-incorporating livestock as part of growing crops is a major part of that.
Thanks for making this point. The author makes a lot of unreasonable leaps to support their bias. Eating meat the way we do right now, with factory farms and everything that goes with them, is...
Thanks for making this point. The author makes a lot of unreasonable leaps to support their bias.
Eating meat the way we do right now, with factory farms and everything that goes with them, is undeniably bad for the environment.
That's it, that's all you can irrefutably say based on the evidence. You can't get from there to "the end of meat" using logic.
The rational takeaway, imo, is this: We need to primarily eat local meat grown on sustainable farms. We should also eat less meat overall (particularly beef).
We also need to accept that factory farming is bad for the environment when they're growing corn too. We can make a much bigger impact by buying local whenever possible than we can by debating veganism.
Keep in mind that meat in the west doesnt get wasted. The more in your face parts (heh) just get moved down the line for processed meat, everything from quality sausage or pâté down to the...
Keep in mind that meat in the west doesnt get wasted. The more in your face parts (heh) just get moved down the line for processed meat, everything from quality sausage or pâté down to the cheapest ready meal "meat". After any scrap of human quality meat is removed they keep processing it for dog/cat food and after that farm animal feed sludge. Then bone and hoof type things are used for fertiliser or other industrial uses.
There are a myriad of problems with how we treat industrial animals but industry is very, very effective about getting every penny our of their corpse.
I'm not going to be pleased until we have vat grown possibilities. I've yet to have a vegetable substitute that ranks higher than "tasty, but different." Edit: Because I want meat grown from vats,...
I'm not going to be pleased until we have vat grown possibilities. I've yet to have a vegetable substitute that ranks higher than "tasty, but different."
Edit: Because I want meat grown from vats, not bats
And if it's that taste that you want, then that's great. But frankly, if I'm in the mood for a cheeseburger, I don't want "close to" a cheeseburger. I'd rather have a pizza than an almost-burger....
And if it's that taste that you want, then that's great. But frankly, if I'm in the mood for a cheeseburger, I don't want "close to" a cheeseburger. I'd rather have a pizza than an almost-burger. Which is why vat-grown (which I am on record as wanting) is so exciting. It's actual meat but with no suffering.
It's not about the taste that I want, it's about the taste that does not require people to commit atrocities on my behalf. Literally what would it take for you to look at your cheeseburger and say...
It's not about the taste that I want, it's about the taste that does not require people to commit atrocities on my behalf.
Literally what would it take for you to look at your cheeseburger and say "You know, maybe it's not worth it..."?
I don't think this is a totally fair assessment. To be clear, I probably wouldn't have started this conversation the way @bloup did; more likely I wouldn't have started it at all, because it's an...
Exemplary
I don't think this is a totally fair assessment. To be clear, I probably wouldn't have started this conversation the way @bloup did; more likely I wouldn't have started it at all, because it's an extremely rare and specific setting that actually provides an opportunity to change someone's mind on the ethics of eating meat, and this clearly wasn't it. In fact, it's not even entirely clear to me that @Thrabalen is saying that they aren't vegan, only that they wish the vegan alternatives were better.
That said, I think there's an opportunity here to have some empathy and assume good faith on the part of @bloup. Imagine that you did, actually and truly, believe that animal suffering was of a similar quality to the human kind, and that you had internalized that notion to the point where seeing a video of a cow being slaughtered, or a deer being shot, was nearly as viscerally upsetting as watching an execution of an innocent person.
Imagine now that every single time this idea was mentioned, you had to suffer through dozens to thousands of callous comments about how the flavor of animal flesh justified this regular, constant mass slaughter that makes you so upset and uncomfortable that you just don't think about it if you can help it.
There's something to be said about taking the right tact to attempt to change minds at any given moment. But I think there's also something to consider about the emotional burden we expect others to take on when we ask them to completely remove their feelings from a conversation about something that they have such strong feelings about.
I also want to take a closer look at the quotes you took from @bloup's comments, because I think they might not actually be as militant as you might have interpreted them.
“Tasty, but different” sounds like a great alternative to killing something that can suffer, imo.
I don't see anything militant about this statement. It is pointed and maybe even slightly combative, but I don't think anyone is arguing that farm animals are incapable of suffering (@Thrabalen actually mentions it in their own comment), or that consuming animal products doesn't involve killing those animals. And it seems perfectly reasonable to me, and I assume probably to you as well, to feel that a small difference in flavor is a great alternative to those agreed upon preconditions, whether or not your feel that way yourself. Nowhere in this comment was anyone attacked, or called names, or even shamed or bullied. Instead, a perfectly reasonable point was made that, to @bloup, the complaint that "it doesn't quite taste the same" doesn't outweigh the suffering.
It's not about the taste that I want, it's about the taste that does not require people to commit atrocities on my behalf.
I fully understand that this is strong language that has embedded within it the assumption that animal slaughter, and the associated treatment of livestock, is an atrocity. I don't think it requires much of a stretch to see how, starting from the assumption that farm animals are capable of suffering, one could view the horrendous living conditions and regular mass slaughter of these animals as atrocious. I'm not saying that I specifically expect you, or anyone else in particular, to agree with that assessment. I'm only suggesting that we assume that @bloup, and other vegan advocates, are in fact acting in good faith when they use these words, and are not using them only for shock factor or "militancy".
Literally what would it take for you to look at your cheeseburger and say "You know, maybe it's not worth it..."?
This is the same point as the first quote, and I won't belabor it.
I try to restrain myself from having conversations about veganism unless I'm specifically asked, or have reason to assume that the audience will be receptive, which almost always amounts to simply saying nothing almost every time it comes up. Almost any time a vegan advocate voices anything even remotely relating to their emotional response to the meat industry, it's dismissed and attacked for being militant, or overly aggressive, or excessive. Almost always, the underlying assumption seems to be that vegans aren't acting in good faith; that they're simply using big scary words because they think it will bring them more attention or create a stronger emotional reaction. I don't think that's fair.
Sorry for the gigantic essay, clearly I had a lot bottled up here. I hope this doesn't read as an attack on you or @Thabalen, it's not meant to be one.
I have to agree. I get that people like meat and all, but it's just a bad trade from an economic perspective, an ethical perspective, and an environmental perspective. It's just not that good....
I have to agree. I get that people like meat and all, but it's just a bad trade from an economic perspective, an ethical perspective, and an environmental perspective. It's just not that good. It's what you're used to, and it's hard to change / admit that you've been doing something that's pretty much unquestionably wrong, especially when public opinion is (for now) on your side... But yeah. It just doesn't seem at all worth it to me when it's such a marginal comfort at such a high cost.
Ok ok ok so I wanna introduce you to a product by a company called "Anamma" (awesome name if you know Swedish) - I'm married to a vegetarian (or pescaterian I guess but it gets weird when these...
Ok ok ok so I wanna introduce you to a product by a company called "Anamma" (awesome name if you know Swedish) - I'm married to a vegetarian (or pescaterian I guess but it gets weird when these terms gets thrown in, he doesn't eat red meat, pork or chicken), and since I grew up in a household where meat was expected but never abundant it sort of works. I love cooking, but only when there's not just me, as then I can just eat cheese sandwiches and be done with it, so most of everything I make these days are vegetarian.
(I don't care because I'm not 12 btw. I don't have HAVE to have a certain ingredient in everything)
The thing with this is that its scary close to minced meat. There is one thats "shapeable" for meatballs etc, and I don't even know what black magic is in that stuff to make it be like that (I am sort of wondering if its like "human flesh" at this point because its a bit too good).
IF you, for some absurd reason, don't live in the Nordic countries and can't get Anamma - there is a pretty good method to get the fake veggo mince to taste similar: Butter, a tad bit of cinnamon, salt,0 green and rose pepper, and if you feel odd liquid smoke (just a teeny tiny bit) and maybe some dry thyme or similar depending on the dish you're making. Fry up some garlic or onions with the spices and chuck in the veggo mince and if you feel frisky, add a splash of beer or whisky. Meat is more or less just umami, salt and fat so if you got a mix of those flavours you're good to go.
I once had a friend punch my husbands fork out of his hand as he was going to eat a fake bean-mine stew thinking I'd made it with meat and wanted to stop my husband from eating it. So I know it works tricking people used to meat into thinking its the real thing.
The title is ill-reflective of the piece, which is more a survey of the bad that comes with meat high consumption and industrial production (including its connection to how COVID-19 has played out...
The title is ill-reflective of the piece, which is more a survey of the bad that comes with meat high consumption and industrial production (including its connection to how COVID-19 has played out in the US).
While I agree that industrial production of meat is a massive problem, we wouldn't have livestock at all if there weren't really good reasons:
Prior to the steam engine, male cattle were one of the best creatures for tilling soil and transporting goods. From there, all other products that came from cows (leather, milk, etc) came naturally as a result of reducing waste and insuring a stead supply of oxen for labor.
All farm animals help contribute to pest control and fertilizing soil. They were meant to eat leaves/roots/bugs, not corn and soy.
I'm 100% behind eliminating industrial meat farms. But I am also 100% in favor of returning to local farming using modern science with more traditional crop rotation, inter cropping, natural fertilizers, and beekeeping.
Meat doesn't need to be removed from our diets. Reduced, yes, but that is largely true of most other foods in the USA as well. But the entire agricultural system needs to be reworked to be more sustainable, and re-incorporating livestock as part of growing crops is a major part of that.
Thanks for making this point. The author makes a lot of unreasonable leaps to support their bias.
Eating meat the way we do right now, with factory farms and everything that goes with them, is undeniably bad for the environment.
That's it, that's all you can irrefutably say based on the evidence. You can't get from there to "the end of meat" using logic.
The rational takeaway, imo, is this: We need to primarily eat local meat grown on sustainable farms. We should also eat less meat overall (particularly beef).
We also need to accept that factory farming is bad for the environment when they're growing corn too. We can make a much bigger impact by buying local whenever possible than we can by debating veganism.
Keep in mind that meat in the west doesnt get wasted. The more in your face parts (heh) just get moved down the line for processed meat, everything from quality sausage or pâté down to the cheapest ready meal "meat". After any scrap of human quality meat is removed they keep processing it for dog/cat food and after that farm animal feed sludge. Then bone and hoof type things are used for fertiliser or other industrial uses.
There are a myriad of problems with how we treat industrial animals but industry is very, very effective about getting every penny our of their corpse.
This is wishful thinking at best. Meat substitutes as selling well, but there is a long way to go.
I'm not going to be pleased until we have vat grown possibilities. I've yet to have a vegetable substitute that ranks higher than "tasty, but different."
Edit: Because I want meat grown from vats, not bats
“Tasty, but different” sounds like a great alternative to killing something that can suffer, imo.
And if it's that taste that you want, then that's great. But frankly, if I'm in the mood for a cheeseburger, I don't want "close to" a cheeseburger. I'd rather have a pizza than an almost-burger. Which is why vat-grown (which I am on record as wanting) is so exciting. It's actual meat but with no suffering.
It's not about the taste that I want, it's about the taste that does not require people to commit atrocities on my behalf.
Literally what would it take for you to look at your cheeseburger and say "You know, maybe it's not worth it..."?
I don't think this is a totally fair assessment. To be clear, I probably wouldn't have started this conversation the way @bloup did; more likely I wouldn't have started it at all, because it's an extremely rare and specific setting that actually provides an opportunity to change someone's mind on the ethics of eating meat, and this clearly wasn't it. In fact, it's not even entirely clear to me that @Thrabalen is saying that they aren't vegan, only that they wish the vegan alternatives were better.
That said, I think there's an opportunity here to have some empathy and assume good faith on the part of @bloup. Imagine that you did, actually and truly, believe that animal suffering was of a similar quality to the human kind, and that you had internalized that notion to the point where seeing a video of a cow being slaughtered, or a deer being shot, was nearly as viscerally upsetting as watching an execution of an innocent person.
Imagine now that every single time this idea was mentioned, you had to suffer through dozens to thousands of callous comments about how the flavor of animal flesh justified this regular, constant mass slaughter that makes you so upset and uncomfortable that you just don't think about it if you can help it.
There's something to be said about taking the right tact to attempt to change minds at any given moment. But I think there's also something to consider about the emotional burden we expect others to take on when we ask them to completely remove their feelings from a conversation about something that they have such strong feelings about.
I also want to take a closer look at the quotes you took from @bloup's comments, because I think they might not actually be as militant as you might have interpreted them.
I don't see anything militant about this statement. It is pointed and maybe even slightly combative, but I don't think anyone is arguing that farm animals are incapable of suffering (@Thrabalen actually mentions it in their own comment), or that consuming animal products doesn't involve killing those animals. And it seems perfectly reasonable to me, and I assume probably to you as well, to feel that a small difference in flavor is a great alternative to those agreed upon preconditions, whether or not your feel that way yourself. Nowhere in this comment was anyone attacked, or called names, or even shamed or bullied. Instead, a perfectly reasonable point was made that, to @bloup, the complaint that "it doesn't quite taste the same" doesn't outweigh the suffering.
I fully understand that this is strong language that has embedded within it the assumption that animal slaughter, and the associated treatment of livestock, is an atrocity. I don't think it requires much of a stretch to see how, starting from the assumption that farm animals are capable of suffering, one could view the horrendous living conditions and regular mass slaughter of these animals as atrocious. I'm not saying that I specifically expect you, or anyone else in particular, to agree with that assessment. I'm only suggesting that we assume that @bloup, and other vegan advocates, are in fact acting in good faith when they use these words, and are not using them only for shock factor or "militancy".
This is the same point as the first quote, and I won't belabor it.
I try to restrain myself from having conversations about veganism unless I'm specifically asked, or have reason to assume that the audience will be receptive, which almost always amounts to simply saying nothing almost every time it comes up. Almost any time a vegan advocate voices anything even remotely relating to their emotional response to the meat industry, it's dismissed and attacked for being militant, or overly aggressive, or excessive. Almost always, the underlying assumption seems to be that vegans aren't acting in good faith; that they're simply using big scary words because they think it will bring them more attention or create a stronger emotional reaction. I don't think that's fair.
Sorry for the gigantic essay, clearly I had a lot bottled up here. I hope this doesn't read as an attack on you or @Thabalen, it's not meant to be one.
Honestly, this conversation isn't worth it. If I wanted bullying, I'd be having a Reddit conversation right now.
Have a wonderful night.
I have to agree. I get that people like meat and all, but it's just a bad trade from an economic perspective, an ethical perspective, and an environmental perspective. It's just not that good. It's what you're used to, and it's hard to change / admit that you've been doing something that's pretty much unquestionably wrong, especially when public opinion is (for now) on your side... But yeah. It just doesn't seem at all worth it to me when it's such a marginal comfort at such a high cost.
Ok ok ok so I wanna introduce you to a product by a company called "Anamma" (awesome name if you know Swedish) - I'm married to a vegetarian (or pescaterian I guess but it gets weird when these terms gets thrown in, he doesn't eat red meat, pork or chicken), and since I grew up in a household where meat was expected but never abundant it sort of works. I love cooking, but only when there's not just me, as then I can just eat cheese sandwiches and be done with it, so most of everything I make these days are vegetarian.
(I don't care because I'm not 12 btw. I don't have HAVE to have a certain ingredient in everything)
The thing with this is that its scary close to minced meat. There is one thats "shapeable" for meatballs etc, and I don't even know what black magic is in that stuff to make it be like that (I am sort of wondering if its like "human flesh" at this point because its a bit too good).
IF you, for some absurd reason, don't live in the Nordic countries and can't get Anamma - there is a pretty good method to get the fake veggo mince to taste similar: Butter, a tad bit of cinnamon, salt,0 green and rose pepper, and if you feel odd liquid smoke (just a teeny tiny bit) and maybe some dry thyme or similar depending on the dish you're making. Fry up some garlic or onions with the spices and chuck in the veggo mince and if you feel frisky, add a splash of beer or whisky. Meat is more or less just umami, salt and fat so if you got a mix of those flavours you're good to go.
I once had a friend punch my husbands fork out of his hand as he was going to eat a fake bean-mine stew thinking I'd made it with meat and wanted to stop my husband from eating it. So I know it works tricking people used to meat into thinking its the real thing.
The title is ill-reflective of the piece, which is more a survey of the bad that comes with meat high consumption and industrial production (including its connection to how COVID-19 has played out in the US).