Their dream of a perpetual game with an ever-changing ruleset is a recipe for confusion for players. It is incredibly frustrating to me that I can own multiple books that I bought first hand when...
Their dream of a perpetual game with an ever-changing ruleset is a recipe for confusion for players.
It is incredibly frustrating to me that I can own multiple books that I bought first hand when they were released, and I cannot use any of the content on their tools because it is listed as legacy that requires a subscription of some sort to use.
They are going to get more and more legacy stuff as rules change, pieces will not fit together, and they will have to explain "no no, this book was published in 2024 so it can't work with this book published in 2025. The 2022 book is still available to buy for now but in two months it will be rereleased with different rules and you can buy it again then if you want."
As soon as my current campaign is over I am leaving them far behind.
Their goal is to sell as many assets as they can. New rulesets help by pushing folks to rebuy all their books. Don't forget that Wizards of the Coast is owned by Hasbro.
Their goal is to sell as many assets as they can. New rulesets help by pushing folks to rebuy all their books.
Don't forget that Wizards of the Coast is owned by Hasbro.
It's a framework that works for video games, where the meta changing over time is part of what keeps it interesting, but for an TTRPG you want predictable, familiar rules so that you can get...
It's a framework that works for video games, where the meta changing over time is part of what keeps it interesting, but for an TTRPG you want predictable, familiar rules so that you can get through the mechanics and into the experience. I miss AD&D 2e. The mechanics were clunky (hello THACO) but there was ao much content you could use within that single framework.
Me too! I really just want a modernized 2e. I know there’s Scruffy Grognard’s 3e work, but I haven’t tested it or know how well it works or how compatible it is with 2e material.
Me too! I really just want a modernized 2e. I know there’s Scruffy Grognard’s 3e work, but I haven’t tested it or know how well it works or how compatible it is with 2e material.
Are you looking for the slightly fleshed out rules of 2e or the swords-and-sorcery of older editions? OSR (old school rules) systems have had a renaissance in the past few years, so you'd be...
Are you looking for the slightly fleshed out rules of 2e or the swords-and-sorcery of older editions? OSR (old school rules) systems have had a renaissance in the past few years, so you'd be spoiled for choice either way.
I’m heavily into the OSR (currently running Dolmenwood), but looking for the modularity of 2e with a grittier feel. 5e’s fine for what it does, but it doesn’t easily let you tone down the power level.
I’m heavily into the OSR (currently running Dolmenwood), but looking for the modularity of 2e with a grittier feel. 5e’s fine for what it does, but it doesn’t easily let you tone down the power level.
Personally the balance there is adding subclasses/minor changes or even occasional new class, but that don’t change the base game but add enough variety to keep it fresh. Such as Tasha’s cauldron...
Personally the balance there is adding subclasses/minor changes or even occasional new class, but that don’t change the base game but add enough variety to keep it fresh. Such as Tasha’s cauldron of everything.
That in general is a fair point, but you can ban overpowered builds, or intentionally introduce flaws to characters to even it out. I play an artificer which is definitely not over powered! I...
That in general is a fair point, but you can ban overpowered builds, or intentionally introduce flaws to characters to even it out. I play an artificer which is definitely not over powered!
I haven’t played much else, but I think it’s generally good for players for there to be multiple different systems, albeit at the price of fragmentation.
Yeah, after the whole OGL debacle, I was effectively done with DnD and Wizards. While they walked it back, it killed the only part I felt DnD was still king: awesome Homebrew and third party...
Yeah, after the whole OGL debacle, I was effectively done with DnD and Wizards. While they walked it back, it killed the only part I felt DnD was still king: awesome Homebrew and third party content. Now it has this stench hanging over it that they'll try it again later. No thanks. Your system was janky as is.
It remains janky, and the reason for playing it remains that it is the "default" TTRPG experience. I am glad that my group is on board with trying a new system after the current campaign because I...
It remains janky, and the reason for playing it remains that it is the "default" TTRPG experience. I am glad that my group is on board with trying a new system after the current campaign because I feel like I would probably rather just give up on TTRPGs rather than try to find a new group and new system from scratch.
While it's not for every group, I think I'd struggle to go back to DnD 5e after my year or so of running PF2e. The level of character customisation is a lot more satisfying. And while it does have...
While it's not for every group, I think I'd struggle to go back to DnD 5e after my year or so of running PF2e.
The level of character customisation is a lot more satisfying. And while it does have some more rules compared to 5e this also translates into a lot more guidance for the GM in how to run things fairly without needing to be a game designer on the side.
No, keep a set of rules for a given timeframe and when enough things have been found worthy of a change then make a new iteration entirely. However, leave the previous iteration available for...
No, keep a set of rules for a given timeframe and when enough things have been found worthy of a change then make a new iteration entirely. However, leave the previous iteration available for those that want to play it.
I mean, that's kinda a given when we're talking about physical books. I don't really see the benefit over what they did here. 5e had some serious warts and the 2024 edition was meaningfully...
However, leave the previous iteration available for those that want to play it.
I mean, that's kinda a given when we're talking about physical books.
I don't really see the benefit over what they did here. 5e had some serious warts and the 2024 edition was meaningfully improved. In practice, any campaign material from base 5e is very easy to adapt; regardless of whether or not they say it's compatible, people would still use old source books, like they always do. It's only PC options where adapting old material gets harder, since there's different standards of balance in 5e and now 5.5e.
It's not like this is WotC's first rodeo doing this; 3.5e was a thing, after all, and much celebrated at that.
That's not at all what they are (or at least were) doing here though. They were explicitly stating they wanted to make a video-gamey "living DnD" ruleset instead of a new iteration like they've...
That's not at all what they are (or at least were) doing here though. They were explicitly stating they wanted to make a video-gamey "living DnD" ruleset instead of a new iteration like they've been doing. That's why this 5.5e announce is news. They've acknowledged that trying to make DnD a video game is stupid.
I've liked the idea of SW but haven't really been able to get into it. Are you using it for fantasy RP or one of the other genres? Is there a particular mix of books/supplements you'd recommend?...
I've liked the idea of SW but haven't really been able to get into it. Are you using it for fantasy RP or one of the other genres? Is there a particular mix of books/supplements you'd recommend? It seemed a bit overwhelming when I looked into it a few years back.
We use the Fantasy and Core book to run games in Eberron. The easiest introduction is to pick a setting and grab the appropriate book. Deadlands is their signature setting, and the Pathfinder core...
We use the Fantasy and Core book to run games in Eberron.
The easiest introduction is to pick a setting and grab the appropriate book. Deadlands is their signature setting, and the Pathfinder core is also well supported with full adventure books.
If you're not running one of the prebuilt settings (Deadlands, Pathfinder, Rifts, East Texas University, etc), you'll need the core SWADE book. Because it's a system, it's easiest to choose a direction then optionally pick up the relevant companion. The companion books are: Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Horror, and Super Powers.
I'm happy to help explain if you have any questions!
Are core rules laid out in the different setting books as well, or is it a Core+Setting situation? I don't have a ton of experience with generic systems so it's always seemed a little hard to...
Are core rules laid out in the different setting books as well, or is it a Core+Setting situation? I don't have a ton of experience with generic systems so it's always seemed a little hard to figure out what all is needed.
The core rules are completely sufficient! You don't need any other books to run games with Savage Worlds. It has all of the basic tools to run any genre you fancy. If you primarily run a specific...
The core rules are completely sufficient! You don't need any other books to run games with Savage Worlds. It has all of the basic tools to run any genre you fancy.
If you primarily run a specific genre, the companions give you more tools and options specific to that genre. For example, the core book has a list of powers which could be used for anything from Jedi force powers to occult magic or classic fantasy spells. The Fantasy book extends the list of powers and arcane backgrounds to help you make druids, witches, etc. It's not necessary, but it is helpful.
For settings, the most important tools are setting rules. These are optional bits you're intended to turn off or on as appropriate for your setting. Are you playing in a fantasy world inspired by Game of Thrones? Use the Betrayal setting rule so sneak attacks are extra deadly!
Very cool, thank you! No idea if I'll be able to persuade my group to give it a shot. I may have to ponder what settings/genres are available and see if I can come up with something that might...
Very cool, thank you! No idea if I'll be able to persuade my group to give it a shot. I may have to ponder what settings/genres are available and see if I can come up with something that might hook them.
I will say IME it works really well for "main character" types - in that PCs are a step above your average person, even if only for plot reasons. That works for fantasy "adventurers" or...
I will say IME it works really well for "main character" types - in that PCs are a step above your average person, even if only for plot reasons. That works for fantasy "adventurers" or superheroes or even just again like "this is the crew and therefore they are particularly skilled"
I've wanted to run a "monster of the week", supernatural style campaign for a while, so maybe SW would be the way to go for that. I have run Monster of the Week, which I think is a decent example...
I've wanted to run a "monster of the week", supernatural style campaign for a while, so maybe SW would be the way to go for that. I have run Monster of the Week, which I think is a decent example of PbtA but I've never really found those games to work all that well for extended campaigns, they're best for shorter campaigns imo.
I'd agree that SW could work, I haven't had a really good table for a PbtA. The three things that I recall as standouts to me are the way skills get different dice assigned to them rather than...
I'd agree that SW could work, I haven't had a really good table for a PbtA.
The three things that I recall as standouts to me are the way skills get different dice assigned to them rather than different bonuses on a d20, that PCs and bigger bads always roll a d6 alongside their assigned die so you basically always roll with some type of advantage (sometimes that d6 is bigger than your d4 and sometimes it's smaller than your d12), and that dice explode, so if you roll a max value you reroll and add to your results.
Dimension 20 has been playing with some modifications to Kids with Bikes that do some similar things too that I'd love to find a group to play with.
I've had some of my best sessions in PbtA games, along with some of my absolute worst. They definitely require a certain mindset that sometimes veteran tabletop players struggle with, especially...
I've had some of my best sessions in PbtA games, along with some of my absolute worst. They definitely require a certain mindset that sometimes veteran tabletop players struggle with, especially more munchkin-leaning players. Folks sometimes bounce off the concept of fictional triggers and and playing in fiction and just want to be able to say "I do the thing it says I can do on my sheet", which is fair, tbh. But PbtA games really don't want you to do that, and they shine when players are just playing their character in fiction and the moves are flowing from that. But I've never played a PbtA game that had satisfying progression across lots of sessions, so the typical rewards for play feel absent for folks used to leveling up instead of leveling sideways or whatever.
Savage Worlds has satisfying progression across sessions, and it strikes the perfect balance for me between tactics and cinematic gameplay. If someone wants to disarm the bad guy, that's a called...
Savage Worlds has satisfying progression across sessions, and it strikes the perfect balance for me between tactics and cinematic gameplay.
If someone wants to disarm the bad guy, that's a called shot to the arm, hand, or weapon. If someone wants to distract the dragon, that could be a test with the taunt skill. If someone just wants to shoot it? Well they just need to roll shooting then damage if they hit.
How many books do you need to pick up a savage worlds game? Despite being a pretty heavy TTRPG vet, I haven't heard much about it before and your summary makes it sound like I'd need maybe... An...
How many books do you need to pick up a savage worlds game? Despite being a pretty heavy TTRPG vet, I haven't heard much about it before and your summary makes it sound like I'd need maybe... An old core book plus also an unknown amount of supplements?
You need exactly one core book to play Savage Worlds. This book contains all of the essential rules, character options, GM advice, enemy stat blocks, etc:...
The companion books are optional companions to the core book. They are not necessary to play Savage Worlds. The companions provide additional genre-specific options. If you wanted to run a horror game, you could easily build a werewolf or vampire player character using only the core book's system for custom races. Alternatively, the horror companion has prebuilt monstrous races like werewolves and vampires and provides additional character options (amongst other things): https://peginc.com/product/horror-companion-swade/
Instead of buying the setting-agnostic SWADE core book (and optional companion books), there is an alternative core book called Pathfinder for Savage Worlds which contains all of the rules, races, classes, and monsters you'd need to run Pathfinder for Savage Worlds: https://peginc.com/product/pathfinder-for-savage-worlds-core-rules/
Other settings like Rifts, Flash Gordon, and East Texas University have supplemental setting books which require one core book: https://peginc.com/savage-settings/
Thank you for the detailed breakdown with links! From my googling before this, I was very confused by the massive amount of supplementary books out there. This steers me much more clearly to what...
Thank you for the detailed breakdown with links! From my googling before this, I was very confused by the massive amount of supplementary books out there. This steers me much more clearly to what I actually need.
TL;DR: Buy the Core SWADE book, everything else is optional/supplementary. Side note, their PDFs are actually great and super handy for sharing with players! I always buy the book+PDF bundle...
TL;DR: Buy the Core SWADE book, everything else is optional/supplementary.
Side note, their PDFs are actually great and super handy for sharing with players! I always buy the book+PDF bundle straight from PEG.
I really like the style of SW but haven't ran it, just enjoyed playing it a few times when I was pretty new to ttrpgs (I was seeing someone who wrote a SW book, mistakes were made there). And I...
I really like the style of SW but haven't ran it, just enjoyed playing it a few times when I was pretty new to ttrpgs (I was seeing someone who wrote a SW book, mistakes were made there). And I really love the wild card aspect.
Their dream of a perpetual game with an ever-changing ruleset is a recipe for confusion for players.
It is incredibly frustrating to me that I can own multiple books that I bought first hand when they were released, and I cannot use any of the content on their tools because it is listed as legacy that requires a subscription of some sort to use.
They are going to get more and more legacy stuff as rules change, pieces will not fit together, and they will have to explain "no no, this book was published in 2024 so it can't work with this book published in 2025. The 2022 book is still available to buy for now but in two months it will be rereleased with different rules and you can buy it again then if you want."
As soon as my current campaign is over I am leaving them far behind.
Their goal is to sell as many assets as they can. New rulesets help by pushing folks to rebuy all their books.
Don't forget that Wizards of the Coast is owned by Hasbro.
It's a framework that works for video games, where the meta changing over time is part of what keeps it interesting, but for an TTRPG you want predictable, familiar rules so that you can get through the mechanics and into the experience. I miss AD&D 2e. The mechanics were clunky (hello THACO) but there was ao much content you could use within that single framework.
Me too! I really just want a modernized 2e. I know there’s Scruffy Grognard’s 3e work, but I haven’t tested it or know how well it works or how compatible it is with 2e material.
Are you looking for the slightly fleshed out rules of 2e or the swords-and-sorcery of older editions? OSR (old school rules) systems have had a renaissance in the past few years, so you'd be spoiled for choice either way.
I’m heavily into the OSR (currently running Dolmenwood), but looking for the modularity of 2e with a grittier feel. 5e’s fine for what it does, but it doesn’t easily let you tone down the power level.
Personally the balance there is adding subclasses/minor changes or even occasional new class, but that don’t change the base game but add enough variety to keep it fresh. Such as Tasha’s cauldron of everything.
The problem is how do you add variety that isn't too samey? The power creep is real.
There are a lot of reasons I've entirely left DND behind.
That in general is a fair point, but you can ban overpowered builds, or intentionally introduce flaws to characters to even it out. I play an artificer which is definitely not over powered!
I haven’t played much else, but I think it’s generally good for players for there to be multiple different systems, albeit at the price of fragmentation.
Yeah, after the whole OGL debacle, I was effectively done with DnD and Wizards. While they walked it back, it killed the only part I felt DnD was still king: awesome Homebrew and third party content. Now it has this stench hanging over it that they'll try it again later. No thanks. Your system was janky as is.
It remains janky, and the reason for playing it remains that it is the "default" TTRPG experience. I am glad that my group is on board with trying a new system after the current campaign because I feel like I would probably rather just give up on TTRPGs rather than try to find a new group and new system from scratch.
What systems do you think you're going to go for?
PF2E I would guess at least for a quick run to see how it feels
While it's not for every group, I think I'd struggle to go back to DnD 5e after my year or so of running PF2e.
The level of character customisation is a lot more satisfying. And while it does have some more rules compared to 5e this also translates into a lot more guidance for the GM in how to run things fairly without needing to be a game designer on the side.
PF2E ended up being “too” balanced for my group, so ended that campaign at a natural stopping point and running an OSR game now.
Depending on what kinds of games you play, you might also consider Pathfinder for Savage Worlds or Daggerheart.
Would you prefer for them to just make fully backwards incompatible rules?
No, keep a set of rules for a given timeframe and when enough things have been found worthy of a change then make a new iteration entirely. However, leave the previous iteration available for those that want to play it.
I mean, that's kinda a given when we're talking about physical books.
I don't really see the benefit over what they did here. 5e had some serious warts and the 2024 edition was meaningfully improved. In practice, any campaign material from base 5e is very easy to adapt; regardless of whether or not they say it's compatible, people would still use old source books, like they always do. It's only PC options where adapting old material gets harder, since there's different standards of balance in 5e and now 5.5e.
It's not like this is WotC's first rodeo doing this; 3.5e was a thing, after all, and much celebrated at that.
That's not at all what they are (or at least were) doing here though. They were explicitly stating they wanted to make a video-gamey "living DnD" ruleset instead of a new iteration like they've been doing. That's why this 5.5e announce is news. They've acknowledged that trying to make DnD a video game is stupid.
I've moved on to Savage Worlds and love it far more than DND, but I'm glad they're finally using a sensible name. "2024 rules" was a mouthful.
I've liked the idea of SW but haven't really been able to get into it. Are you using it for fantasy RP or one of the other genres? Is there a particular mix of books/supplements you'd recommend? It seemed a bit overwhelming when I looked into it a few years back.
We use the Fantasy and Core book to run games in Eberron.
The easiest introduction is to pick a setting and grab the appropriate book. Deadlands is their signature setting, and the Pathfinder core is also well supported with full adventure books.
If you're not running one of the prebuilt settings (Deadlands, Pathfinder, Rifts, East Texas University, etc), you'll need the core SWADE book. Because it's a system, it's easiest to choose a direction then optionally pick up the relevant companion. The companion books are: Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Horror, and Super Powers.
I'm happy to help explain if you have any questions!
Are core rules laid out in the different setting books as well, or is it a Core+Setting situation? I don't have a ton of experience with generic systems so it's always seemed a little hard to figure out what all is needed.
The core rules are completely sufficient! You don't need any other books to run games with Savage Worlds. It has all of the basic tools to run any genre you fancy.
If you primarily run a specific genre, the companions give you more tools and options specific to that genre. For example, the core book has a list of powers which could be used for anything from Jedi force powers to occult magic or classic fantasy spells. The Fantasy book extends the list of powers and arcane backgrounds to help you make druids, witches, etc. It's not necessary, but it is helpful.
For settings, the most important tools are setting rules. These are optional bits you're intended to turn off or on as appropriate for your setting. Are you playing in a fantasy world inspired by Game of Thrones? Use the Betrayal setting rule so sneak attacks are extra deadly!
Very cool, thank you! No idea if I'll be able to persuade my group to give it a shot. I may have to ponder what settings/genres are available and see if I can come up with something that might hook them.
I will say IME it works really well for "main character" types - in that PCs are a step above your average person, even if only for plot reasons. That works for fantasy "adventurers" or superheroes or even just again like "this is the crew and therefore they are particularly skilled"
I've wanted to run a "monster of the week", supernatural style campaign for a while, so maybe SW would be the way to go for that. I have run Monster of the Week, which I think is a decent example of PbtA but I've never really found those games to work all that well for extended campaigns, they're best for shorter campaigns imo.
I'd agree that SW could work, I haven't had a really good table for a PbtA.
The three things that I recall as standouts to me are the way skills get different dice assigned to them rather than different bonuses on a d20, that PCs and bigger bads always roll a d6 alongside their assigned die so you basically always roll with some type of advantage (sometimes that d6 is bigger than your d4 and sometimes it's smaller than your d12), and that dice explode, so if you roll a max value you reroll and add to your results.
Dimension 20 has been playing with some modifications to Kids with Bikes that do some similar things too that I'd love to find a group to play with.
I've had some of my best sessions in PbtA games, along with some of my absolute worst. They definitely require a certain mindset that sometimes veteran tabletop players struggle with, especially more munchkin-leaning players. Folks sometimes bounce off the concept of fictional triggers and and playing in fiction and just want to be able to say "I do the thing it says I can do on my sheet", which is fair, tbh. But PbtA games really don't want you to do that, and they shine when players are just playing their character in fiction and the moves are flowing from that. But I've never played a PbtA game that had satisfying progression across lots of sessions, so the typical rewards for play feel absent for folks used to leveling up instead of leveling sideways or whatever.
Savage Worlds has satisfying progression across sessions, and it strikes the perfect balance for me between tactics and cinematic gameplay.
If someone wants to disarm the bad guy, that's a called shot to the arm, hand, or weapon. If someone wants to distract the dragon, that could be a test with the taunt skill. If someone just wants to shoot it? Well they just need to roll shooting then damage if they hit.
It's not exactly rules light, but it is crunch-lite with simple math (your target number is usually 4). This two-page comic gives a good rules overview: https://www.uptofourplayers.com/ready-to-roll/savage-worlds-rules/
How many books do you need to pick up a savage worlds game? Despite being a pretty heavy TTRPG vet, I haven't heard much about it before and your summary makes it sound like I'd need maybe... An old core book plus also an unknown amount of supplements?
You need exactly one core book to play Savage Worlds. This book contains all of the essential rules, character options, GM advice, enemy stat blocks, etc: https://peginc.com/product/savage-worlds-adventure-edition-core-rules-pdf-swade/
The companion books are optional companions to the core book. They are not necessary to play Savage Worlds. The companions provide additional genre-specific options. If you wanted to run a horror game, you could easily build a werewolf or vampire player character using only the core book's system for custom races. Alternatively, the horror companion has prebuilt monstrous races like werewolves and vampires and provides additional character options (amongst other things): https://peginc.com/product/horror-companion-swade/
Instead of buying the setting-agnostic SWADE core book (and optional companion books), there is an alternative core book called Pathfinder for Savage Worlds which contains all of the rules, races, classes, and monsters you'd need to run Pathfinder for Savage Worlds: https://peginc.com/product/pathfinder-for-savage-worlds-core-rules/
Other settings like Rifts, Flash Gordon, and East Texas University have supplemental setting books which require one core book: https://peginc.com/savage-settings/
Thank you for the detailed breakdown with links! From my googling before this, I was very confused by the massive amount of supplementary books out there. This steers me much more clearly to what I actually need.
TL;DR: Buy the Core SWADE book, everything else is optional/supplementary.
Side note, their PDFs are actually great and super handy for sharing with players! I always buy the book+PDF bundle straight from PEG.
I really like the style of SW but haven't ran it, just enjoyed playing it a few times when I was pretty new to ttrpgs (I was seeing someone who wrote a SW book, mistakes were made there). And I really love the wild card aspect.
I hope you get a chance to run something!