You're so right. Honestly, that is mostly fine. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The problem lies with the stupid parents who give raw milk to their children who have no idea. Bunch of morons...
You're so right. Honestly, that is mostly fine. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The problem lies with the stupid parents who give raw milk to their children who have no idea. Bunch of morons who probably shouldn't be procreating in the first place.
I get the frustation and have given up on a number of people making bad choices, but can't agree with that. A lot of people making bad choices were at some point failed by their upbringing,...
Honestly, that is mostly fine
I get the frustation and have given up on a number of people making bad choices, but can't agree with that.
A lot of people making bad choices were at some point failed by their upbringing, whether family or society.
They may have people who care about them who now have to choose between taking on that burden and having a loved one suffer. Or it may become society's problem in other ways, like a loss of productivity from someone no longer able to work or strain on healthcare/insurance when preventable issues become serious problems.
And any profit coming from successfully bilking those playing stupid games goes right back into the advertising budget of folks like Mercola, until otherwise intelligent and educated people are getting convinced of harmful fads.
Intelligent regulation is what I think makes sense. Experts informed on a topic should be empowered to regulate or otherwise call things out as bullshit on the behalf of people without that expertise.
Complicating factor: Exxon Mobil et al have been paying to attack science and cast doubts on experts for decades. Complicit policy makers have spread doubt on science and attacked schools for...
Complicating factor: Exxon Mobil et al have been paying to attack science and cast doubts on experts for decades. Complicit policy makers have spread doubt on science and attacked schools for social ills for decades as well. The people becoming doubtful and dumb isn't an entirely natural event of even failing of the education system.
That's fair, but in this day and age, I have seen people disregard those same regulations. I live in Wisconsin and the dairy industry has a lot of pull. The law here says raw milk sales are...
That's fair, but in this day and age, I have seen people disregard those same regulations. I live in Wisconsin and the dairy industry has a lot of pull. The law here says raw milk sales are illegal. BUT, there is also a loophole for "incidental sales", which is basically a load of hooey. Supposedly you can 'sell' raw milk on the farm where it's milked, but not as a 'regular business'. So of course there are facebooks groups promoting where to get it.
Cognitive dissonance is real. Unfortunately people will continue to play stupid games until such regulations and laws are passed, and then they will continue to deliberately break those laws. This goes for many more behaviors than just raw dairy.
I've been on this earth long enough to understand you sometimes just need to let a trend play out. Eventually it will die. Hopefully not to many people have their lives turned around by bad decisions. But as the pandemic has taught us, that's a tough battle. I don't have the answers, but considering I had a neighbor who believes in the raw dairy nonsense, the false dichotomy is a hard fallacy to argue against, and I am no longer going to try to disabuse her (or anyone else) of those beliefs.
Correct, Jessie. None of the possible benefits are worth the risks. That is why we pasteurize milk, Jessie. Those calculations have already been done. Tell all your friends. It makes me so sad...
Jessie McGee, 35, [...] said she had read about supposed health benefits of raw milk online and started drinking Raw Farm products and feeding them to her daughter and her 2-year-old twins. All three children and McGee fell ill, she said, but her older daughter's symptoms of high fever and stomach cramps were most severe.
After the ordeal, McGee said she'll no longer drink unpasteurized milk.
“None of the possible benefits you could maybe get from the milk is worth any of that,” she said.
Correct, Jessie. None of the possible benefits are worth the risks. That is why we pasteurize milk, Jessie. Those calculations have already been done. Tell all your friends. It makes me so sad when people feel the need to learn things like this the hard way.
I understand people in the States have to sue for medical things, and I kind of place some responsibility on the farm....but on the other hand, she "did her research" and chose unpasteurized milk....
Jessie McGee, 35, of San Pedro, California, said she plans to sue Raw Farm because her 6-year-old daughter was hospitalized in October with a confirmed infection tied to the outbreak.
I understand people in the States have to sue for medical things, and I kind of place some responsibility on the farm....but on the other hand, she "did her research" and chose unpasteurized milk. Milk was sold to her as unpasteurized, as requested. And on the third hand, animals poop and animals don't wash their hands after pooping and animals sit down on dirt with their udders in the dirt. How is she not capable of putting two and two together and say, oh you know what, milk is going to have bacteria in it.
There's signs at restaurants warning about raw eggs, raw fish, raw meat, raw shellfish etc when people order them. If the farm has one of these signs, are they adequately protected from lawsuits? Could they argue that the product is sold labelled correctly and they the assumption is people make their own decisions and if they wanted to pasteurize at home they could?
At least she seems to be giving up on it. There are some who continue to dig in, unable to face the shame and guilt of choosing harm to their children. So there's that. It's really unfair and...
At least she seems to be giving up on it. There are some who continue to dig in, unable to face the shame and guilt of choosing harm to their children. So there's that. It's really unfair and unfortunate for her kids, but hopefully this is their family wake up call, and the little ones will recover and gain the benefits of science sooner rather than never.
As someone whose mother is exactly this kind of person, I feel this so hard. It’s so frustrating how parents can just make brain dead decisions like this that go against commonly accepted logic...
As someone whose mother is exactly this kind of person, I feel this so hard. It’s so frustrating how parents can just make brain dead decisions like this that go against commonly accepted logic and harm their children. The worst part is these kinds of people never learn unless something goes seriously wrong.
There is just so much disinformation, bordering on outright fraud in the world of “health”, specifically within skeptical and alternative medicine type communities. The only way to clamp down on this is to just start banning things we can prove to be harmful or bunk. Because otherwise, gullible parents like this will never learn.
I feel huge sadness for those children. Salmonella infection is incredibly serious, not just for the short term effects, but because it opens them up to long term consequences too. Raw milk...
I feel huge sadness for those children. Salmonella infection is incredibly serious, not just for the short term effects, but because it opens them up to long term consequences too.
Raw milk consumption is pretty uncommon, but people who drink raw milk are, unsurprisingly, massively over-represented in the data for food poisoning.
In the United States, outbreaks associated with dairy consumption cause, on average, 760 illnesses/year and 22 hospitalizations/year, mostly from Salmonella spp. and Campylobacter spp. Unpasteurized milk, consumed by only 3.2% of the population, and cheese, consumed by only 1.6% of the population, caused 96% of illnesses caused by contaminated dairy products. Unpasteurized dairy products thus cause 840 (95% CrI 611–1,158) times more illnesses and 45 (95% CrI 34–59) times more hospitalizations than pasteurized products.
What a capacitous adult chooses to do with their body is up to them, even if they're making a stupid choice. But it's really concerning that adults are causing harm to their children because they've chosen to ignore the clear warnings.
I think the problem is that people are being actively lied to and are primed to believe the government is lying to them instead. I honestly think that some of it has got to rise to criminal...
I think the problem is that people are being actively lied to and are primed to believe the government is lying to them instead. I honestly think that some of it has got to rise to criminal levels. But I also understand how someone ends up believing they're making the "right" choice for their family by buying raw milk.
People don't understand the risks involved in transporting and storing milk. I have drunk raw milk fresh from the cow but even a couple of hours delay can allow bacteria to grow to dangerous levels.
People don't understand the risks involved in transporting and storing milk. I have drunk raw milk fresh from the cow but even a couple of hours delay can allow bacteria to grow to dangerous levels.
Anyone who's had a kid should be well versed in these risks. The guidelines for usage and storage of breastmilk (and formula) are incredibly strict. And while they're not law, they're certainly...
Anyone who's had a kid should be well versed in these risks. The guidelines for usage and storage of breastmilk (and formula) are incredibly strict. And while they're not law, they're certainly there for a reason. On a couple occasions I find myself thinking "it's only 30 minutes past the deadline, how bad could it be?", but I'm not willing to risk it. Based on my limited knowledge of biology and the strictness of government regulations, it is probably fine, but I have no way of knowing how much wiggle room they've given people in their guidelines, and how much is them trying to avoid any chance of liability.
Not everyone breastfeeds, not everyone assumes that the standards for storage are similar or equivalent between cows and humans, even when a child is breastfed, not every parent of that child is...
Not everyone breastfeeds, not everyone assumes that the standards for storage are similar or equivalent between cows and humans, even when a child is breastfed, not every parent of that child is in the loop on what needs doing, unfortunately.
I don't even know that raw milk straight from the cow is particularly safe, even without the hour delay given that the bacteria can transfer off the udders or the hands of the milkers (or machine), or bucket, etc. If it's your cow, you at least know the cleanliness of those parts of the process. I'm definitely just someone that believes in pasteurization not an expert on the whole process.
But I do see how easily misinformation spreads and how little education is given to some folks, even in hospitals.
May legal consequences fall on every one who let those children down, and swift ruinous litigation on the companies selling this biohazard to people. I would think "selling unsanitary milk" is...
Nearly 40% of illnesses were reported in children younger than 5, officials said. Twenty people were hospitalized.
May legal consequences fall on every one who let those children down, and swift ruinous litigation on the companies selling this biohazard to people. I would think "selling unsanitary milk" is clearly not a sustainable business model but apparently it wasn't clear enough.
"We have consumed a product not treated for bacteria and now we have bacteria."
Absolute morons.
Another reminder that “natural” doesn’t magically mean good. A large amount of “nature” wants you dead.
You're so right. Honestly, that is mostly fine. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The problem lies with the stupid parents who give raw milk to their children who have no idea. Bunch of morons who probably shouldn't be procreating in the first place.
I get the frustation and have given up on a number of people making bad choices, but can't agree with that.
A lot of people making bad choices were at some point failed by their upbringing, whether family or society.
They may have people who care about them who now have to choose between taking on that burden and having a loved one suffer. Or it may become society's problem in other ways, like a loss of productivity from someone no longer able to work or strain on healthcare/insurance when preventable issues become serious problems.
And any profit coming from successfully bilking those playing stupid games goes right back into the advertising budget of folks like Mercola, until otherwise intelligent and educated people are getting convinced of harmful fads.
Intelligent regulation is what I think makes sense. Experts informed on a topic should be empowered to regulate or otherwise call things out as bullshit on the behalf of people without that expertise.
Complicating factor: Exxon Mobil et al have been paying to attack science and cast doubts on experts for decades. Complicit policy makers have spread doubt on science and attacked schools for social ills for decades as well. The people becoming doubtful and dumb isn't an entirely natural event of even failing of the education system.
That's fair, but in this day and age, I have seen people disregard those same regulations. I live in Wisconsin and the dairy industry has a lot of pull. The law here says raw milk sales are illegal. BUT, there is also a loophole for "incidental sales", which is basically a load of hooey. Supposedly you can 'sell' raw milk on the farm where it's milked, but not as a 'regular business'. So of course there are facebooks groups promoting where to get it.
Cognitive dissonance is real. Unfortunately people will continue to play stupid games until such regulations and laws are passed, and then they will continue to deliberately break those laws. This goes for many more behaviors than just raw dairy.
I've been on this earth long enough to understand you sometimes just need to let a trend play out. Eventually it will die. Hopefully not to many people have their lives turned around by bad decisions. But as the pandemic has taught us, that's a tough battle. I don't have the answers, but considering I had a neighbor who believes in the raw dairy nonsense, the false dichotomy is a hard fallacy to argue against, and I am no longer going to try to disabuse her (or anyone else) of those beliefs.
Correct, Jessie. None of the possible benefits are worth the risks. That is why we pasteurize milk, Jessie. Those calculations have already been done. Tell all your friends. It makes me so sad when people feel the need to learn things like this the hard way.
I understand people in the States have to sue for medical things, and I kind of place some responsibility on the farm....but on the other hand, she "did her research" and chose unpasteurized milk. Milk was sold to her as unpasteurized, as requested. And on the third hand, animals poop and animals don't wash their hands after pooping and animals sit down on dirt with their udders in the dirt. How is she not capable of putting two and two together and say, oh you know what, milk is going to have bacteria in it.
There's signs at restaurants warning about raw eggs, raw fish, raw meat, raw shellfish etc when people order them. If the farm has one of these signs, are they adequately protected from lawsuits? Could they argue that the product is sold labelled correctly and they the assumption is people make their own decisions and if they wanted to pasteurize at home they could?
Too bad her kids didn't get to choose.
At least she seems to be giving up on it. There are some who continue to dig in, unable to face the shame and guilt of choosing harm to their children. So there's that. It's really unfair and unfortunate for her kids, but hopefully this is their family wake up call, and the little ones will recover and gain the benefits of science sooner rather than never.
As someone whose mother is exactly this kind of person, I feel this so hard. It’s so frustrating how parents can just make brain dead decisions like this that go against commonly accepted logic and harm their children. The worst part is these kinds of people never learn unless something goes seriously wrong.
There is just so much disinformation, bordering on outright fraud in the world of “health”, specifically within skeptical and alternative medicine type communities. The only way to clamp down on this is to just start banning things we can prove to be harmful or bunk. Because otherwise, gullible parents like this will never learn.
I feel huge sadness for those children. Salmonella infection is incredibly serious, not just for the short term effects, but because it opens them up to long term consequences too.
Raw milk consumption is pretty uncommon, but people who drink raw milk are, unsurprisingly, massively over-represented in the data for food poisoning.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5443421/
What a capacitous adult chooses to do with their body is up to them, even if they're making a stupid choice. But it's really concerning that adults are causing harm to their children because they've chosen to ignore the clear warnings.
I think the problem is that people are being actively lied to and are primed to believe the government is lying to them instead. I honestly think that some of it has got to rise to criminal levels. But I also understand how someone ends up believing they're making the "right" choice for their family by buying raw milk.
People don't understand the risks involved in transporting and storing milk. I have drunk raw milk fresh from the cow but even a couple of hours delay can allow bacteria to grow to dangerous levels.
Anyone who's had a kid should be well versed in these risks. The guidelines for usage and storage of breastmilk (and formula) are incredibly strict. And while they're not law, they're certainly there for a reason. On a couple occasions I find myself thinking "it's only 30 minutes past the deadline, how bad could it be?", but I'm not willing to risk it. Based on my limited knowledge of biology and the strictness of government regulations, it is probably fine, but I have no way of knowing how much wiggle room they've given people in their guidelines, and how much is them trying to avoid any chance of liability.
Not everyone breastfeeds, not everyone assumes that the standards for storage are similar or equivalent between cows and humans, even when a child is breastfed, not every parent of that child is in the loop on what needs doing, unfortunately.
I don't even know that raw milk straight from the cow is particularly safe, even without the hour delay given that the bacteria can transfer off the udders or the hands of the milkers (or machine), or bucket, etc. If it's your cow, you at least know the cleanliness of those parts of the process. I'm definitely just someone that believes in pasteurization not an expert on the whole process.
But I do see how easily misinformation spreads and how little education is given to some folks, even in hospitals.
May legal consequences fall on every one who let those children down, and swift ruinous litigation on the companies selling this biohazard to people. I would think "selling unsanitary milk" is clearly not a sustainable business model but apparently it wasn't clear enough.