9 votes

Weekly coronavirus-related chat, questions, and minor updates - week of March 15

This thread is posted weekly, and is intended as a place for more-casual discussion of the coronavirus and questions/updates that may not warrant their own dedicated topics. Tell us about what the situation is like where you live!

19 comments

  1. [5]
    eladnarra
    Link
    I got my first Pfizer shot Friday at a FEMA location! It went pretty well, aside from someone being initially skeptical of my vulnerability form. (My doctor emailed it to me so it looked like "a...

    I got my first Pfizer shot Friday at a FEMA location! It went pretty well, aside from someone being initially skeptical of my vulnerability form. (My doctor emailed it to me so it looked like "a photocopy" which was... Suspicious? Not sure why; it all matched my ID.)

    Aside from the intense arm pain whenever I moved it for the first day, it's hard to say what were side effects and what was just chronic illness symptoms due to getting up early, going out, and being stressed. I lay around the first day feeling tired, and I drank massive amounts of water. The second day I felt amazing, better than I have in months. Weird~

    13 votes
    1. [2]
      kfwyre
      Link Parent
      I’m so happy you were finally able to get it! Congrats!

      I’m so happy you were finally able to get it! Congrats!

      6 votes
      1. eladnarra
        Link Parent
        Thank you! It's heartening to see so many other people I know also getting appointments.

        Thank you! It's heartening to see so many other people I know also getting appointments.

        1 vote
    2. [2]
      viborgu
      Link Parent
      That's great, good for you! I don't want to downplay your medical issues, it sounds tough. But could part of it be some sense of relief that you have immune protection now? I'm waiting on a job...

      That's great, good for you!

      The second day I felt amazing, better than I have in months. Weird~

      I don't want to downplay your medical issues, it sounds tough. But could part of it be some sense of relief that you have immune protection now?

      I'm waiting on a job abroad, if I don't get vaccinated by early may I'll have to do a 14 day very strict quarantine.

      2 votes
      1. eladnarra
        Link Parent
        Stress does make my symptoms worse, so starting on my way to being vaccinated could definitely help me handle them better. I think it was probably a combination of relief, taking time off work...

        Stress does make my symptoms worse, so starting on my way to being vaccinated could definitely help me handle them better.

        I think it was probably a combination of relief, taking time off work (which exhausts me), and drinking more (one of the things that helps POTS).

        I hope you're able to get vaccinated soon! Or that the quarantine isn't too rough.

        2 votes
  2. skybrian
    Link
    The COVID Tracking Project is shutting down, and they published an article about some lessons learned: We're still thinking about pandemic data in the wrong ways. [...] [...] [...] [...] [...]

    The COVID Tracking Project is shutting down, and they published an article about some lessons learned:

    We're still thinking about pandemic data in the wrong ways.

    1. All data are created; data never simply exist.

    Before March 2020, the country had no shortage of pandemic-preparation plans. Many stressed the importance of data-driven decision making. Yet these plans largely assumed that detailed and reliable data would simply … exist. They were less concerned with how those data would actually be made.

    [...]

    2. Data are a photograph, not a window.

    [...]

    The charts seem authoritative, comprehensive. Yet the work of producing these data has taught us that every metric represents a different moment in time. You aren’t really looking at the present when you look at these charts—you’re looking at four different snapshots of the past.

    [...]

    3. Data are just another type of information.

    [...]

    Data are just a bunch of qualitative conclusions arranged in a countable way. Data-driven thinking isn’t necessarily more accurate than other forms of reasoning, and if you do not understand how data are made, their seams and scars, they might even be more likely to mislead you.

    [...]

    [...] it wasn’t that the pandemic in those states had gotten worse in February, but that the peak straddling December and January had been even more damaging than we knew at the time. Public-health officials continue to believe that the data in front of them can be interpreted without sufficient consideration of the data-production process.

    7 votes
  3. Adys
    Link
    Belgium starts vaccinating genpop today....

    Belgium starts vaccinating genpop today. https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/159996/belgium-starts-vaccinating-general-population-today-how-reserve-lists-will-work-over-65s-flanders-interfederal-leftover-vaccine-doses/

    Don't let that title fool you: Genpop doesn't mean all priority groups have been vaccinated. No. It means "anyone who isn't resident or staff of an elder care home, or medical staff or volunteer in charge of COVID patient".

    That is the entirety of what it means. We're starting the second phase. Starting with 65+.

    People can only sign up within their own group on the registration list: first the over-65s, then people with underlying health conditions, followed by people working in essential professions (these are only police officers who do interventions), then the rest of the adult population.

    What a slow nightmare.


    In more personal news, I'm fully recovered from my first shot. As a data nerd I of course tracked the entire thing. Timeline was:

    • Injection given at 10:30.
    • Something started feeling wrong around 20:00.
    • Temperature starting to rise around 22:00.
    • Fever starting around 23:30 (>38C), peaked around 03:30 at 39C
    • Fever went gradually back down afterwards, reaching 38C around 10:00. I took a paracetamol around this point after clearing it with the staff.
    • Temperature stayed higher than normal throughout the day, with a mild fever still ongoing at 23:00 and some chills.
    • First normal temperature reading at 10:30, exactly 48 hours after injection. No more symptoms since that time.

    So, that's CureVac, and it lines up pretty well with most other vaccine side effects. It was pretty mild overall, especially considering I didn't medicate until the worst had passed. A friend who got the Pfizer vaccine had a pretty harrowing 48 hours after her first injection, and they told her that she most likely had caught COVID in the past as the side effects are stronger for those who had it before.

    The brain fog was real though. Jeez. I tried to work a bit once my chills and fever had cleared up but kept missing obvious issues, typos etc. The whole thing worsened my insomnia (which started before the injection) quite a lot as well and last night was my first restful night in almost an entire week.

    5 votes
  4. eladnarra
    Link
    The Medical System Should Have Been Prepared for Long COVID A good article that talks about how medicine isn't prepared for long COVID... But it should have been, because we've seen this before...

    The Medical System Should Have Been Prepared for Long COVID

    A good article that talks about how medicine isn't prepared for long COVID... But it should have been, because we've seen this before countless times, both during epidemics and on the individual level with things like ME/CFS.

    --

    I had a personal revelation this morning about why "kids are fine" makes me rage and why this article about going on vacation with kids upsets me so much.

    I got sick with a mild cough when I was 15. It wasn't bad enough to miss school (although obviously in retrospect I should have taken time off to avoid exposing other kids). But after three days the cough went away and I was left with unrelenting fatigue and a bunch of other symptoms. I was home sick for 3 weeks and then tried to go back to school. I made it half a day, struggling to go up the stairs and unable to remember my own locker combination. I ended up in the nurse's office, lying on a bench and feeling my heart pound in my chest as if I'd run a marathon. My mum picked me up and I never went to high school again.

    Some kids will get long COVID. There's no way to predict which ones; I was perfectly healthy until that mild cough, as far as anyone knew. They, like me, will lose the ability to do the things they love. Many will have to drop out of school. And no one seems to care.

    There was no way to predict my illness, but we're already seeing studies confirming kids with long term symptoms from COVID. And yet everyone seems perfectly willing to sacrifice some number of kids to potentially life long disability so that all the other kids can get back to their lives faster. And this morning I finally cried about it.

    5 votes
  5. [2]
    Adys
    Link
    Separate post for this which is absolutely enraging: https://twitter.com/Mikepeeljourno/status/1370686985359261701 https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1371031598351716353...

    Separate post for this which is absolutely enraging:

    https://twitter.com/Mikepeeljourno/status/1370686985359261701
    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1371031598351716353
    https://www.ft.com/content/8e2e994e-9750-4de1-9cbc-31becd2ae0a8

    more than six months after AstraZeneca signed its contract with the EU, the Halix factory is not one of the three facilities approved by the European Medicines Agency to make vaccine drug substance. The Halix factory hasn’t been approved because AZ hasn’t submitted all the necessary data to the European Medicines Agency regulator, according to EU officials.

    A Commission spokesman has today confirmed AZ has not requested to authorise the Netherlands plant for EU supply. As for why, "you'd have to ask the company. It's the company that has to submit the necessary information to allow the medicines agency to conduct this assessment"

    AstraZeneca's willful negligence is slowly approaching conspiracy levels of intentional sabotage. Little French me is itching to get the guillotine out once we find out exactly who the fuck is responsible for this massive a fuckup.

    4 votes
    1. vektor
      Link Parent
      I'd keep the guillotine on the shelf for now. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Best to wait until we know what's going on. I'm not even seeing any notable news publications that would warrant...

      I'd keep the guillotine on the shelf for now. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Best to wait until we know what's going on. I'm not even seeing any notable news publications that would warrant conclusions anywhere close to what you allege.

      4 votes
  6. skybrian
    Link
    U.S. to send 4 million doses of AstraZeneca vaccine to Mexico, Canada in loan deal: official [...]

    U.S. to send 4 million doses of AstraZeneca vaccine to Mexico, Canada in loan deal: official

    The United States plans to send roughly 4 million doses of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine that it is not using to Mexico and Canada in loan deals with the two countries, an administration official told Reuters on Thursday.

    Mexico will receive 2.5 million doses of the vaccine and Canada is to receive 1.5 million doses, the official said.

    [...]

    The deal to share the vaccine, which is still being finalized, does not affect President Joe Biden's plans to have vaccine available for all adults in the United States by the end of May, the official said. It does not reduce the supply of available vaccine in the United States.

    The deal is likely to be announced publicly in the coming days.

    4 votes
  7. [6]
    skybrian
    Link
    What is Going on With the AstraZeneca/Oxford Vaccine? [...] [...]

    What is Going on With the AstraZeneca/Oxford Vaccine?

    I have not been the biggest fan of the vaccine, because its
    initial rollout was (frankly) botched. It was difficult to figure
    out how efficacious it was, and that confusion persisted after
    further attempts to clear things up. The last figure I’ve seen is
    that the European Medicines Agency estimates the vaccine to be about
    60% effective, and at the same time the EMA does not see safety
    concerns with it. But there are many member states of the EU who
    apparently disagree, citing reports of blood clotting problems
    and/or thrombocytopenia after dosing.

    I think that there are several distinct levels to this problem.
    The first, obviously, is medical. The big question is, are the
    reports of vascular problems greater than one would expect in the
    vaccinated population as a whole? It’s not clear to me what the
    answer is, and it may very well be “No, they aren’t”.
    That CNBC link above quotes Michael Head at Southampton as saying
    that the data so far look like the problems show up at at least the
    same levels, and may even be lower in the vaccinated group.
    AstraZeneca has said that they’re aware of 15 events of deep vein
    thrombosis and 22 events pulmonary embolisms, but that’s in 17
    million people who have had at least one shot – and they say that is
    indeed “much lower than would be expected to occur naturally in a
    general population of this size“. It also appears to be similar to
    what’s been seen with the other coronavirus vaccines, which rather
    than meaning “they’re all bad” looks like they’re all showing the
    same baseline signal of such events across a broad population,
    without adding to it.

    [...]

    But many European countries are definitely seeing another wave of
    infections, and the EU case numbers as a whole are going in the
    opposite direction to the US ones. There are surely a lot of reasons
    for this, with new viral variants being one, slow vaccine rollouts
    being another, and now complete vaccination halts set to add even
    more. Put as bluntly as possible, even if the AZ/Oxford vaccine has
    these side effects (which again, I don’t see any evidence for yet),
    you are still very likely to kill more people by not giving it.

    [...]

    Reports are that the US trial of the vaccine has reached its
    events threshold, so we’ll be seeing completely new clinical
    efficacy numbers for this vaccine soon.

    1 vote
    1. [5]
      vektor
      Link Parent
      I disagree. Germany has observed 7 cases in 1.7M vaccinated people. We have started vaccinating with AZ 1.5 months ago. If we plug in the incidence of this specific disease of once per 100k person...

      That CNBC link above quotes Michael Head at Southampton as saying
      that the data so far look like the problems show up at at least the
      same levels, and may even be lower in the vaccinated group.

      I disagree. Germany has observed 7 cases in 1.7M vaccinated people. We have started vaccinating with AZ 1.5 months ago. If we plug in the incidence of this specific disease of once per 100k person years we can expect 2.2 cases - we have 7. For some reason we have different numbers than britain who have seen 3 cases in 11 million doses given (possible 5.5 or 11 million people).

      This does not at all smell to me like a nothing burger. There is something here, or at least there is sufficient evidence to assume so. The question is at this point not "are there safety concerns?" but rather "do the safety concerns outweigh the benefits?".

      3 votes
      1. [4]
        MonkeyPants
        Link Parent
        I am sorry to say I disagree with your statistical analysis. Germany has seen 7 cases and you would expect 2.2? 2.2? Out of 1.7M? Statistically, you don't expect 2.2. A Monte Carlo simulation...

        I am sorry to say I disagree with your statistical analysis.

        Germany has seen 7 cases and you would expect 2.2?

        2.2? Out of 1.7M?

        Statistically, you don't expect 2.2. A Monte Carlo simulation might show you the expected range is 0 to about 10 with a log normal distribution centering on 2.2.

        The UK has seen 3 out of 5.5m. A Monte Carlo simulation might show you the expected range is 0 to about 25 with a log normal distribution centering on 7.

        If this were a concern, you would expect to see the problem replicated in statistically independent samples.

        If you analyze the unvaccinated people, by country, by cause of death, you are going to find at least one country which has a statistically abnormal cause of death per capita.

        Our minds are very good at finding patterns. Sometimes we see patterns where they don't exist.

        3 votes
        1. [3]
          vektor
          Link Parent
          A few other countries have seen similar numbers to germany. I can not tell you what's going on in britain. Let me refine my assumptions a bit: The events actually happened within a 4-16 day window...

          A few other countries have seen similar numbers to germany. I can not tell you what's going on in britain. Let me refine my assumptions a bit: The events actually happened within a 4-16 day window after vaccination. Let's call that 2 weeks. With that, our expectation actually drops to something like 0.6 and our baseline probability of seeing 7 cases is stupid low.

          That said, you are right that seeing 7 cases given the previous assumptions is not super unlikely. My simulation gave my 8% for >= 7.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            I don’t know enough statistics to do the calculations for this, but I think part of the issue here might be what’s called a multiple comparisons problem. If you do a lot of studies, some of them...

            I don’t know enough statistics to do the calculations for this, but I think part of the issue here might be what’s called a multiple comparisons problem. If you do a lot of studies, some of them are going to have outliers, so then you have to decide if the number of outliers is more than average. There is an xkcd comic.

            What does “multiple comparisons” mean in this case and how do you account for it? One way you can get multiple comparisons is by looking at multiple countries, but another way is by looking at multiple causes of death. They aren’t statistically independent though, so I don’t know what to say other than maybe we should see if someone who really knows statistics has studied this?

            1 vote
            1. vektor
              Link Parent
              Oh, absolutely, that's a problem. If you run 20 tests for effects, then on avg. one of them will yell "here's a thing, and it's only 5% likely to be by chance". The thing is that with the update...

              Oh, absolutely, that's a problem. If you run 20 tests for effects, then on avg. one of them will yell "here's a thing, and it's only 5% likely to be by chance". The thing is that with the update to 2 weeks instead of 1.5 months, there's a very high probability this is not just pure chance, even if you test for a lot of causes of death or illness in a lot of countries.

              Add to all this that there is plausible mechanism here: As far as I understood, we know that covid can cause thrombosis, and we know that lack-of-platelets events are often caused by autoimmune interactions.

              Here's the result of my monte carlo simulation, since I'm to lazy to model this as a distribution. Not a single sample of even 5 cases in 5000 samples. You're not getting to 7 by just testing for a lot of different things, you'd need truly enormous amounts of samples.

              1 vote
  8. mrbig
    Link
    Starting Monday the curfew in my city goes from 18h to 05h. I think I'll lose my mind.

    Starting Monday the curfew in my city goes from 18h to 05h. I think I'll lose my mind.

    1 vote
  9. skybrian
    Link
    Washington State: Inslee Says All School Districts Must Offer In-Person Instruction [...]

    Washington State: Inslee Says All School Districts Must Offer In-Person Instruction

    Washington Governor Jay Inslee says school districts must now offer in-person options for children to attend school.

    “By April 5, all students in kindergarten-through-six must have the opportunity to engage in an onsite, hybrid model of instruction. By April 19, all other K-through-12 students must be offered a hybrid model of instruction," Inslee said on Friday.

    [...]

    Reykdal says 270 Washington districts have filed state-mandated plans for teaching students in-person and, as a result, are now collecting federal checks from the last round of stimulus payments. He says 35 districts, including Seattle, have not filed plans and are not receiving stimulus money.