I just realized, while posting at too great a length in the above link in response to @Dustfinger's questions, that there's probably an interested community here. I'll share that I've been a cook...
I just realized, while posting at too great a length in the above link in response to @Dustfinger's questions, that there's probably an interested community here.
I'll share that I've been a cook and gardener for many years. Permaculture is one route to using our car-dependent suburban spaces more efficiently (why are we paving and putting houses on good farmland?), improving human heath and nutrition, shortening supply chains, reducing carbon impact and chemical inputs to agriculture.
Permaculture won't necessarily provide everything you need to eat, but it can be a cost- and labor-efficient way to supplement an otherwise industrialized diet with fresh, better-tasting, natural foods.
My spouse and I were privileged to get a plot that a previous family had started planting with a few fruiting trees, and that had old farmstead leftovers - old mulberries, wild raspberries, and wild strawberries. We're trying to turn it into a year-round garden that feeds people, shelters animals and insects, and fosters native plant diversity. Always keeping in mind that it's an effort for the future as well as the present.
Please share your questions, permaculture plans, climate, gardening tips, sources, or anything else you care to write about permaculture philosophy and reasoning here.
[Note to other mods - I have no idea if this belongs in ~hobbies or ~food. I'll look to others' judgment.]
I've bookmarked this thread and I'm hoping you will bump it often with random thing of the day or week things about it! I'm very new at it, and I used to live where @dustfinger's YouTuber,...
I've bookmarked this thread and I'm hoping you will bump it often with random thing of the day or week things about it!
I'm very new at it, and I used to live where @dustfinger's YouTuber, Redditor suuperdad (two u's) lives. He's a super awesome guy and gave me a ton of Jerusalem artichokes! Due to unfortunate circumstances I couldn't take any of them during my last move. Much sad.
But I wholeheartedly recommend his channel! Engineers make the best gardeners imho :)
I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, so thanks for opening up a discussion on it! I think a ~hobbies.growing or .plants might be appropriate, or ~food.agriculture might work. Depends on how much...
I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, so thanks for opening up a discussion on it! I think a ~hobbies.growing or .plants might be appropriate, or ~food.agriculture might work. Depends on how much interest there is.
In your comment your reply to me in the other thread you mentioned a lot of fruit and berries, do you have any plans to include nut trees into your design? They can take time to produce, but store well and are high in protein. Also you sound like you'd be in a good location to grow peppercorns, which I've been fascinated by since I looked into them.
I'm unfortunately limited by lack of land access, and living in Japan that challenge is even further heightened. I'm doing a sustainable agriculture program online at the moment, and are the wife and I are thinking about moving further into the countryside. Hopefully then I can find a plot of land to work with.
I really like Canadian Permaculture Legacy on YouTube as inspiration, as well as Self-sufficient Me. Really having sources in a similar climate to one's own is quite important I think, but certain techniques like swaling are universally useful.
Thank you for the YouTube links! We've mulled the nut tree question, and haven't come to conclusions yet. When we bought the property, we were unaware that all of the ash trees in the surrounding...
Thank you for the YouTube links!
We've mulled the nut tree question, and haven't come to conclusions yet. When we bought the property, we were unaware that all of the ash trees in the surrounding woods were dead or dying from emerald ash borer. Maple, beech, elm, oak, and pine trees remain, along with a new growth of ash seedlings we're leaving alone in hope that some will survive.
The woods are sparser and non-native weed shrubs like honeysuckle and autumn olive are filling the gaps as quickly as we can uproot them. We've been trying to replant with other native trees and shrubs from the local conservation district. The native understory shrubs we've planted include elderberry, serviceberry, and hazelnuts (filberts).
No one I've spoken with has ever beaten the deer and squirrels to harvest any hazelnuts, and they're still years from bearing. The soil and elevation aren't ideal for walnut trees. However, hickory is among the conservation district's recommendations for climate change adaptation. [There's a project to encourage planting natives from the southern part of the state in the north, basically filling in more heat-tolerant varieties and encouraging diversification due to diseases and pests that are destroying the forests here.] Hickory nuts are delicious, if hard to shell in quantity. It's a slow-growing tree - we're unlikely to live long enough to see any nuts, but they'll be around for whoever comes after us.
American chestnut would be ideal. It's still difficult and expensive to source the disease-resistant variety, though. We might give in and plant Chinese chestnut or pecans. As to peppercorns, I'd love to try growing them but don't want to risk introducing another non-native invasive species.
The next experiment is going to be shiitake mushroom farming on all that dead ash wood... We also discovered a fortuitous growth of morels this past spring in a delivery of wood chips we're putting down for weed suppression and erosion control, so that's a bonus if they establish themselves.
I've had success with Shiitake :D they are indeed not picky about the kind of wood. We also use wind fallen trees. You want logs that are still pretty moist and preferably not during spring...
I've had success with Shiitake :D they are indeed not picky about the kind of wood. We also use wind fallen trees. You want logs that are still pretty moist and preferably not during spring sprouting season. Then it's about how humid you can keep it and if you can harvest before slugs and potato bugs
Thanks for starting the thread. I'll put some random stuff here about mine and my wife's setup here, to fill up the thread a bit. We have about 150m² under cultivation in our backyard (although...
Thanks for starting the thread. I'll put some random stuff here about mine and my wife's setup here, to fill up the thread a bit. We have about 150m² under cultivation in our backyard (although 1/3 is lawn), south-facing in a climate zone equivalent to US 6. We have a small greenhouse, a small polytunnel, and a sunroom attached to the house. We have focused on fruit perennials (15 kinds!) and leafy greens.
Input is sun, rainwater (and muni water for the plants under roof), wood ash from the winter fireplace burning, urine, and food waste compost. The main output is all the leafy greens we can eat, and herbs, fruits and berries for 3-4 months of the year. We also get a smattering of roots, tubers, and other edible plants like potatoes, asparagus, and sugar snap peas.
Some things we have found in our garden:
Currant bushes are extremely productive. We got > 30 kg of redcurrant from 4 medium bushes this year! We make jam, cordial, and fruit wine from them. The wine is actually really good, I prefer it to most grape wines I've tasted.
Biggest quality difference in home grown vs. store bought are sugar snap peas, strawberries, cherries, and asparagus. For things that store well, like carrots, potatoes, and apples, the store bought produce might well be as good as what we grow.
The previous owner left us a magic apple tree that grows large amounts of nice, crispy apples every year that work for both eating and cider. I wish I knew what variety it was. I've tried to graft it twice, without success.
Plums are super temperamental. We can have 5 years of getting like 1 fruit per tree, and then one year where the trees are so laden that the branches break. And then all the fruits are colonized by some bug.
Cherry trees grow quickly and yield consistently, much to the delight of the local magpies. Putting nets on tall cherry trees is a PITA.
Purslane is the best salad green, but requires greenhouse space. Outside is too cold.
Orach is the easiest leafy green to grow. It yields well and is little bothered by bugs. Just sow it once and let a few plants go to seed, and you're set forever. Same with amaranth.
You can't have cilantro fully grown and not bolted when you actually need it. You just can't.
It's impossible to grow onions. They're actually made in a factory in Nassogne. Just grow onion greens like chives instead.
Ivar's Red Berry is the tomato variety that grows best in our garden. I want to grow more San Marzano, but it very easily gets blossom end rot. Need to improve my tomato skills.
Sunchokes grow really well, and spread like a weed.
Thank you so much for sharing your garden - it sounds lovely! It also sounds like we've got very similar climate, soil, and pests! Asparagus is a weed here, to my utter delight. I've let it take...
Thank you so much for sharing your garden - it sounds lovely!
It also sounds like we've got very similar climate, soil, and pests!
Asparagus is a weed here, to my utter delight. I've let it take over one partially shaded raised bed that's not ideal for anything else, and it's thriving.
We have one magic apple tree, and one that seems to produce nothing but caterpillars. We'll give it all the BT, horticultural oil, and insecticidal soap we can next year and see what happens.
We're trimming the cherry trees aggressively enough that we should be able to net them and get small crops next year. We've also got a couple of Nanking cherry shrubs that might be established enough to bear next year - they're planted next to the house since they're ornamental, and that might deter the birds and deer.
We can't eat all the kale, gai lan, bok choy, and mixed salad lettuces. Not only are we getting multiple crops until July/August, I've harvested kale at Thanksgiving, and we've got one perennial kale that was leafing out in March.
Cilantro is easier to grow in partial shade. It's coexisting happily with the asparagus and we're still harvesting leaves in July. I'm about to replant seeds for another crop in early-mid autumn.
I don't know what I'm doing right with tomatoes, other than starting them early indoors. The beds just get a couple of inches of 50/50 compost+composted cow manure in spring, and a tablespoon of bone meal goes in the hole with each seedling. I've bordered this year's beds with basil plants, and they do seem to be better together - no hornworms. A single 4' x 8' bed is good for 50+ lbs. of tomatoes. Cherry tomatoes do produce more. Best varieties so far have been Brad's Atomic Grape, Black Cherry, Sungold, Ukrainian Purple, Thorburn's Terracotta, and San Marzano II.
Onions do fine in our loose sandy loam soil, but it's not worth devoting scarce home garden space to them when local store-bought organic is relatively inexpensive. Shallots, on the other hand, have been productive, tastier than anything available elsewhere, and far cheaper. We're in good territory for garlic, it's just a matter of finding a spot among other competing experiments.
We haven't done much with root vegetables - again, the local organic farmers with lots of space have been outproducing anything we could hope to accomplish.
Rhubarb is doing so well that we're going to have to start treating it as invasive. Also, spiced rhubarb compote is good with everything, from cheesecake to pork tenderloin.
You're going to have to share the secrets of currant wine. One of my best childhood memories is my mother's red currant jelly - it's really a lovely fruit that I'm sorry to see abandoned by commercial agriculture. [Admittedly, currants were banned for a while as a host species for rust diseases.] Presumably, currants and other heirloom fruits like gooseberries are too fragile and seasonal to be worth cultivating and selling for anything but preserves. One of the things I enjoy most about permaculture gardening is that I can grow "lost" varieties that just aren't available in stores.
I think our issue with onions is that they require a lot of sun, but in a small permaculture-inspired lot like ours, there will typically be many levels of taller plants that take some of the sun....
I think our issue with onions is that they require a lot of sun, but in a small permaculture-inspired lot like ours, there will typically be many levels of taller plants that take some of the sun. Bizarrely, onions are cheaper than potatoes here, so we're not too motivated to dedicate the garden space. I think I will try shallots next year. Thanks for the idea.
Do you remember the variety name for the perennial kale? I'm trying to find one that can survive our winters. A local lady claims to have accidentally bred one in her garden, and have offered to give out seeds in the fall. I hope she remembers us :-)
The variety was just called "Russian Red Kale". Unfortunately, it looks like it didn't survive this spring's unseasonable heat and drought. This fall, I'm planting "Homesteaders Rainbow Perennial...
The variety was just called "Russian Red Kale". Unfortunately, it looks like it didn't survive this spring's unseasonable heat and drought. This fall, I'm planting "Homesteaders Rainbow Perennial Kale Grex" from Experimental Farm Network, so we'll see what happens.
The secret to redcurrant wine us to use only redcurrant. No water (unlike most fruit wine). I've read that redcurrants are the most similar fruit to grapes for wine-making. Before fermentation...
The secret to redcurrant wine us to use only redcurrant. No water (unlike most fruit wine). I've read that redcurrants are the most similar fruit to grapes for wine-making.
Before fermentation gets going, you'll need enough juice/must to take a gravity reading. Make a note of it. SG of about 1.035 is typical.
Initial fermentation lasts maybe a week or so. After that, you should squeeze the juice out of the berries, and separate the remains from the fermenting must. We put the berries in a brewing bag, and just lift it out of the must.
(Using frozen berries, and adding pectic enzyme in the beginning, helps with extracting must from the berries.)
Now you know the volume of must, and can use a chaptalization calculator (like this one: https://www.vinolab.hr/calculator/chaptalisation-additions-en38 ) with the gravity reading you took earlier to figure out how much sugar to add. We shoot for about 12-13% ABV.
When fermentation slows down a bit, you can transfer to secondary, and wait until the CO2 is gone. Then lower the acidity using eg. Calcium Carbonate. Most of the acidity in currants comes from citric acid, which is a bit harsh, and should be reduced.
Thank you for taking the time to write this up! For all that I love grape wines, I'd never looked deeply into home winemaking as yet. [It seemed like another space- and money-consuming hobby I...
Thank you for taking the time to write this up! For all that I love grape wines, I'd never looked deeply into home winemaking as yet. [It seemed like another space- and money-consuming hobby I wouldn't have time for, and I've got a couple of those already.]
I'm assuming the closest grape wine equivalent would be Pinot or Gamay Noir? Do you ferment the sugars to near dryness, or leave some residual sugar? Does the currant wine have any effervescence?
I haven't tried Gamai Noir I think. Pinot, yes, I can see that. We ferment completely dry, and let the wine stand in secondary until there's no effervescence. I feel there's enough sweetness from...
I haven't tried Gamai Noir I think. Pinot, yes, I can see that. We ferment completely dry, and let the wine stand in secondary until there's no effervescence. I feel there's enough sweetness from fruit esters and other substances after fermentation. Also dry wine is easier to handle, I don't have to worry about re-fermentation in the bottle.
Don't tell anybody I said this, but you can mix table sugar in the wine before serving if you want a sweeter/more desert type wine.
Anyway, that's just what we do these days, in fruit wine there's unlimited room for experimenting with styles and flavors.
Man this is awesome! Sounds like you have a super productive system, if certain kinds of foods have been frustrating you. I'm curious about what system you have for urine reclamation. I've heard a...
Man this is awesome! Sounds like you have a super productive system, if certain kinds of foods have been frustrating you.
I'm curious about what system you have for urine reclamation. I've heard a lot about this recently, quite suddenly it seems. Both the No-Till Growers Podcast and Gastropod did episodes with the Rich Earth Instutue last month, and I've heard about pilot projects for in-home reclamation systems. Can you share what your setup there is and how you process what you get?
Oh, no system. We just pee in the garden (if the neighbors aren't out). Or, in a watering pot like this: https://www.guldkannan.se/ , which we then use in the garden. It's recommended that you...
Oh, no system. We just pee in the garden (if the neighbors aren't out). Or, in a watering pot like this: https://www.guldkannan.se/ , which we then use in the garden. It's recommended that you don't use urine on plants that will be eaten within a week or two.
Most of the urine fertilizer mentions I've seen suggested keeping it in jugs for months to let it ferment so that it doesn't burn the plants. That always struck me as excessive, since human urine...
Most of the urine fertilizer mentions I've seen suggested keeping it in jugs for months to let it ferment so that it doesn't burn the plants. That always struck me as excessive, since human urine is relatively sterile and dilute by comparison with other animals.
And yes, the spouse has watered the garden directly on occasion, especially when we're trying to scare off rabbits or other critters that don't fancy carnivore pee.
The Rich Earth Institute has been pushing for feces reclamation as well, which you absolutely need to compost first. Urine I'm not so sure, I know my wife wouldn't eat anything if she knew we'd...
The Rich Earth Institute has been pushing for feces reclamation as well, which you absolutely need to compost first. Urine I'm not so sure, I know my wife wouldn't eat anything if she knew we'd been "watering it personally." I really hope to have some kind of system in the future to streamline and maximize nutrient reclamation.
I wish I liked purslane. It's ....slimy? Bitter? :( it grows so well I wish we could eat it too I also have never read success with cilantro.... If anyone knows the secret please share.
I wish I liked purslane. It's ....slimy? Bitter? :( it grows so well I wish we could eat it too
I'll chime in mostly just to say that I'm 100% on-board the Permaculture "train" even though I'm still pretty much a beginner on the topic. My mind needs a "learn-as-I-go" method to grow in this...
I'll chime in mostly just to say that I'm 100% on-board the Permaculture "train" even though I'm still pretty much a beginner on the topic. My mind needs a "learn-as-I-go" method to grow in this way rather than periods of intense study and then application of that knowledge.
Anyway, I don't have much to add other than to say that I'm very interested in reading Permaculture content. I still visit /r/Permaculture, but it doesn't feel the same, maybe just because I'm sour on Reddit as a whole. And I've always found the Permies.com layout super confusing and awkward to use. I'm mostly a lurker just because my time is taken up with other things. But to get me to stop rambling (think of all the text I've deleted from this comment box!), I'll share the two things I'm proud of from this year in my Permaculture adventures: my chicken coop/storage shed in-progress and my air prune boxes full of trees.
The chicken coop will be 16' x 20', with one 16' x 10' section (closest to the camera) being a storage shed for all of the stuff I keep outside and in the garage. It'll free up a ton of space in the garage, give my tools some protection from the elements, and let me get organized. The section furthest from the camera will of course be for chickens. They'll step out of that into what is currently my compost area but which will soon also be their 100' x 125' chicken yard. I've been slow to work on the building, but I'm getting excited, especially now that the hardest parts (cutting down a 11" wide tree, the first tree I've ever cut down that was scary large, and putting in the four corner posts) are done. I'm modeling this whole chicken yard/compost area after Edible Acres'.
The air prune boxes are full mostly of black oaks, but I also have a few shagbark hickories that have popped up and some pawpaw seeds that I'm still waiting on. I'm not giving up on either of the latter two yet, as I know both of them are slow to start. Once again, I'm sort of trying to follow in Edible Acres' footsteps in selling plants. I feel a bit of trepidation about the "selling" part because I have so little experience with that, but I feel good that the trees look very nice. I hope their root systems look just as nice and that their quality is helpful in finding them homes. And I do have some connections that will help move that along. I may just be giving a bunch away as a way to repay some folks and build better connections, and while I'd like to at least recoup the cost of the air prune boxes, if I can finally repay some folks that I owe, I'll be happy about that.
I love Edible Acres videos! I'm a little envious of your chicken coop plans. We asked the previous property owners to remove their chicken coop before we purchased the place. I'd just gotten some...
I love Edible Acres videos! I'm a little envious of your chicken coop plans. We asked the previous property owners to remove their chicken coop before we purchased the place. I'd just gotten some bad medical news and wasn't thinking I'd be able to take care of live animals for quite a while, if at all. The space has now been given over to perennial flowers, and there's nothing like well worked-in chicken manure for plant growth...
Goose poop covered straw/hay is also very good fertilizer + mulch combo :) But yes live animals are for people who don't want to travel ever again -..- it's okay you can always trade with a...
Goose poop covered straw/hay is also very good fertilizer + mulch combo :)
But yes live animals are for people who don't want to travel ever again -..- it's okay you can always trade with a neighbor who raised backyard chickens
Hi permies! I would love a dedicated community for this on Tildes! Here’s my first question. I need to find some flowers / berries that do well on a woods edge - so mostly/partial shade -...
Hi permies! I would love a dedicated community for this on Tildes!
Here’s my first question. I need to find some flowers / berries that do well on a woods edge - so mostly/partial shade - preferably not thorny ones. I’m in Zone 5/6. Any ideas??
Ooh, have I got answers! You're in good climate for elderberry cultivation. They'll do okay in shade, but produce less fruit than in full sun. Elderberries normally fruit copiously, so this may...
Ooh, have I got answers! You're in good climate for elderberry cultivation. They'll do okay in shade, but produce less fruit than in full sun. Elderberries normally fruit copiously, so this may not be much of a problem. The fruit is edible with cooking and sweetening, it's a common medicinal, and the wine is notorious. Elderberry foliage and flowers can be elegantly ornamental. It's a native plant in much of the U.S. and Canada.
There are thornless commercial raspberry varieties. These can be expensive and may not be as flavorful as the wild thorny types. We're working with the thorny ones in hedges to steer deer away from more delicate plantings. With practice, you can harvest from thorny raspberry thickets without getting too badly scratched.
Amelanchier (serviceberry, Juneberry, Saskatoon) is another North American native valued for fruit and flowers. It does well at partially shaded woods margins, but you'll have to hurry to beat birds and critters to the fruit.
Sumac is a pretty (if weedy) shrub at forest margins in much of North America. The foliage turns brilliant colors in autumn, and the seeds make a tasty citric tea or seasoning.
Gooseberries, currants, Jostaberries (less thorny gooseberry/currant hybrid) all tolerate some shade.
Gooseberries are green (not showy), extremely sour and super pokey. I do not recommend except as deer defense. Currants are sour too but at least they're super pretty. Thanks for the...
Gooseberries are green (not showy), extremely sour and super pokey. I do not recommend except as deer defense.
Currants are sour too but at least they're super pretty.
Thanks for the recommendations! (Not op just happy to see your answer)
Sour berries make great preserves (and sorbets) with enough sweetening. And they're very good for you. There's some evidence that foods bred for sweetness or other commercially valuable traits...
Sour berries make great preserves (and sorbets) with enough sweetening. And they're verygood for you. There's some evidence that foods bred for sweetness or other commercially valuable traits aren't quite as nutritious as what our ancestors ate, and I think it's beneficial to incorporate a wide range of heirloom foods in my diet.
If you wait until they're completely ripe, gooseberries become fairly sweet. They'll still poke you, though. And you'll have to eat them all within like 3 days :)
If you wait until they're completely ripe, gooseberries become fairly sweet. They'll still poke you, though. And you'll have to eat them all within like 3 days :)
Oh....today I learned I've never eaten a ripe one Do they turn all the way purple? I've eaten sour ones that are slightly purple I thought that's that....maybe birds have eaten all the ripe ones...
Oh....today I learned I've never eaten a ripe one
Do they turn all the way purple? I've eaten sour ones that are slightly purple I thought that's that....maybe birds have eaten all the ripe ones and I've never even seen it lol
Most varieties of gooseberries blush pink or turn purple when they're ready to eat. Green gooseberries are notoriously sour, but they contain high levels of pectin, the jelling agent that...
Most varieties of gooseberries blush pink or turn purple when they're ready to eat. Green gooseberries are notoriously sour, but they contain high levels of pectin, the jelling agent that solidifies jams and jellies. So you can mix them in with other sweeter fruits to get better preserves.
One that I would like to get going in my MI 5/6 is PawPaw. An understory tree that’s very happy in mottled sun, and has a very tasty fruit that you can’t get in stores (doesn’t store basically at...
One that I would like to get going in my MI 5/6 is PawPaw. An understory tree that’s very happy in mottled sun, and has a very tasty fruit that you can’t get in stores (doesn’t store basically at all).
Now I need suggestions for keeping deer away...😠🤬 I got up this morning and found they'd gotten into the netted enclosure for my raised beds. They ate the leaves off all the beans, grazed the hot...
Now I need suggestions for keeping deer away...😠🤬
I got up this morning and found they'd gotten into the netted enclosure for my raised beds. They ate the leaves off all the beans, grazed the hot pepper plants down to 6" tall, and made a dent in the tomatoes.
Short of building an 8' tall wooden stockade or metal fence, which is really, really inconvenient given the layout, I'm hoping for something that doesn't require daily reapplication during the rainy season.
I don't have experience chasing off deer, but if the place smells heavily of predators that might do the trick. A really active cat or dog with strong prey drive could suffice. Even just to let...
I don't have experience chasing off deer, but if the place smells heavily of predators that might do the trick. A really active cat or dog with strong prey drive could suffice. Even just to let them pee along the perimeter might be good. Others likely have more hands-on experience with the subject and can give you better insight though.
Anyone tried setting up keyhole gardens? Any build plans you'd recommend, specific materials that worked well for you, or general cost-saving tips on materials? This summer has been exceptionally...
Anyone tried setting up keyhole gardens?
Any build plans you'd recommend, specific materials that worked well for you, or general cost-saving tips on materials?
This summer has been exceptionally brutal down in Texas, so I'm interested in building one out for next spring to test out for drought resistance and shade benefits.
I’m not sure how a keyhole garden will help with drought or shade - raised beds generally increase drainage. I’m still a fan for beds for most environments because you can control the soil,...
I’m not sure how a keyhole garden will help with drought or shade - raised beds generally increase drainage. I’m still a fan for beds for most environments because you can control the soil, increase drainage, and they’re just easier to work in.
I was in San Antonio for 5 years, and had mixed success gardening, mostly maintaining perennials that were already established. I would look into shade cloth and irrigation. Drip irrigation, wicking beds, or Olla pots might fit your need.
AIUI, apart from controlling the soil, the drought-friendly benefits come from the fact that the walls are typically heavily insulated (cinderblock, brick, builders' stone), the geometry minimizes...
AIUI, apart from controlling the soil, the drought-friendly benefits come from the fact that the walls are typically heavily insulated (cinderblock, brick, builders' stone), the geometry minimizes the soil-wall-contact surface area, and probably most importantly, people tend to put a dense layer of cardboard/paper waste at the bottom which takes a few years to decay and acts as a sponge-like base that captures runoff drainage. Long-term, the central compost is supposed to act as a funnel to keep the soil organic-matter rich and keep the water retention high after the cardboard breaks down.
I definitely plan to combine with shade netting and irrigation as well, but the million dollar question in my book whether or not the higher construction cost and "bonus features" described above are worth it compared to conventional raised beds with shade netting and irrigation alone.
I just realized, while posting at too great a length in the above link in response to @Dustfinger's questions, that there's probably an interested community here.
I'll share that I've been a cook and gardener for many years. Permaculture is one route to using our car-dependent suburban spaces more efficiently (why are we paving and putting houses on good farmland?), improving human heath and nutrition, shortening supply chains, reducing carbon impact and chemical inputs to agriculture.
Permaculture won't necessarily provide everything you need to eat, but it can be a cost- and labor-efficient way to supplement an otherwise industrialized diet with fresh, better-tasting, natural foods.
My spouse and I were privileged to get a plot that a previous family had started planting with a few fruiting trees, and that had old farmstead leftovers - old mulberries, wild raspberries, and wild strawberries. We're trying to turn it into a year-round garden that feeds people, shelters animals and insects, and fosters native plant diversity. Always keeping in mind that it's an effort for the future as well as the present.
Please share your questions, permaculture plans, climate, gardening tips, sources, or anything else you care to write about permaculture philosophy and reasoning here.
[Note to other mods - I have no idea if this belongs in ~hobbies or ~food. I'll look to others' judgment.]
I've bookmarked this thread and I'm hoping you will bump it often with random thing of the day or week things about it!
I'm very new at it, and I used to live where @dustfinger's YouTuber, Redditor suuperdad (two u's) lives. He's a super awesome guy and gave me a ton of Jerusalem artichokes! Due to unfortunate circumstances I couldn't take any of them during my last move. Much sad.
But I wholeheartedly recommend his channel! Engineers make the best gardeners imho :)
I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, so thanks for opening up a discussion on it! I think a ~hobbies.growing or .plants might be appropriate, or ~food.agriculture might work. Depends on how much interest there is.
In your comment your reply to me in the other thread you mentioned a lot of fruit and berries, do you have any plans to include nut trees into your design? They can take time to produce, but store well and are high in protein. Also you sound like you'd be in a good location to grow peppercorns, which I've been fascinated by since I looked into them.
I'm unfortunately limited by lack of land access, and living in Japan that challenge is even further heightened. I'm doing a sustainable agriculture program online at the moment, and are the wife and I are thinking about moving further into the countryside. Hopefully then I can find a plot of land to work with.
I really like Canadian Permaculture Legacy on YouTube as inspiration, as well as Self-sufficient Me. Really having sources in a similar climate to one's own is quite important I think, but certain techniques like swaling are universally useful.
Thank you for the YouTube links!
We've mulled the nut tree question, and haven't come to conclusions yet. When we bought the property, we were unaware that all of the ash trees in the surrounding woods were dead or dying from emerald ash borer. Maple, beech, elm, oak, and pine trees remain, along with a new growth of ash seedlings we're leaving alone in hope that some will survive.
The woods are sparser and non-native weed shrubs like honeysuckle and autumn olive are filling the gaps as quickly as we can uproot them. We've been trying to replant with other native trees and shrubs from the local conservation district. The native understory shrubs we've planted include elderberry, serviceberry, and hazelnuts (filberts).
No one I've spoken with has ever beaten the deer and squirrels to harvest any hazelnuts, and they're still years from bearing. The soil and elevation aren't ideal for walnut trees. However, hickory is among the conservation district's recommendations for climate change adaptation. [There's a project to encourage planting natives from the southern part of the state in the north, basically filling in more heat-tolerant varieties and encouraging diversification due to diseases and pests that are destroying the forests here.] Hickory nuts are delicious, if hard to shell in quantity. It's a slow-growing tree - we're unlikely to live long enough to see any nuts, but they'll be around for whoever comes after us.
American chestnut would be ideal. It's still difficult and expensive to source the disease-resistant variety, though. We might give in and plant Chinese chestnut or pecans. As to peppercorns, I'd love to try growing them but don't want to risk introducing another non-native invasive species.
The next experiment is going to be shiitake mushroom farming on all that dead ash wood... We also discovered a fortuitous growth of morels this past spring in a delivery of wood chips we're putting down for weed suppression and erosion control, so that's a bonus if they establish themselves.
I've had success with Shiitake :D they are indeed not picky about the kind of wood. We also use wind fallen trees. You want logs that are still pretty moist and preferably not during spring sprouting season. Then it's about how humid you can keep it and if you can harvest before slugs and potato bugs
That's great news about the shiitakes - everything I'd seen suggested ash isn't good for many other wood-loving mushrooms.
Thanks for starting the thread. I'll put some random stuff here about mine and my wife's setup here, to fill up the thread a bit. We have about 150m² under cultivation in our backyard (although 1/3 is lawn), south-facing in a climate zone equivalent to US 6. We have a small greenhouse, a small polytunnel, and a sunroom attached to the house. We have focused on fruit perennials (15 kinds!) and leafy greens.
Input is sun, rainwater (and muni water for the plants under roof), wood ash from the winter fireplace burning, urine, and food waste compost. The main output is all the leafy greens we can eat, and herbs, fruits and berries for 3-4 months of the year. We also get a smattering of roots, tubers, and other edible plants like potatoes, asparagus, and sugar snap peas.
Some things we have found in our garden:
Currant bushes are extremely productive. We got > 30 kg of redcurrant from 4 medium bushes this year! We make jam, cordial, and fruit wine from them. The wine is actually really good, I prefer it to most grape wines I've tasted.
Biggest quality difference in home grown vs. store bought are sugar snap peas, strawberries, cherries, and asparagus. For things that store well, like carrots, potatoes, and apples, the store bought produce might well be as good as what we grow.
The previous owner left us a magic apple tree that grows large amounts of nice, crispy apples every year that work for both eating and cider. I wish I knew what variety it was. I've tried to graft it twice, without success.
Plums are super temperamental. We can have 5 years of getting like 1 fruit per tree, and then one year where the trees are so laden that the branches break. And then all the fruits are colonized by some bug.
Cherry trees grow quickly and yield consistently, much to the delight of the local magpies. Putting nets on tall cherry trees is a PITA.
Purslane is the best salad green, but requires greenhouse space. Outside is too cold.
Orach is the easiest leafy green to grow. It yields well and is little bothered by bugs. Just sow it once and let a few plants go to seed, and you're set forever. Same with amaranth.
You can't have cilantro fully grown and not bolted when you actually need it. You just can't.
It's impossible to grow onions. They're actually made in a factory in Nassogne. Just grow onion greens like chives instead.
Ivar's Red Berry is the tomato variety that grows best in our garden. I want to grow more San Marzano, but it very easily gets blossom end rot. Need to improve my tomato skills.
Sunchokes grow really well, and spread like a weed.
Thank you so much for sharing your garden - it sounds lovely!
It also sounds like we've got very similar climate, soil, and pests!
You're going to have to share the secrets of currant wine. One of my best childhood memories is my mother's red currant jelly - it's really a lovely fruit that I'm sorry to see abandoned by commercial agriculture. [Admittedly, currants were banned for a while as a host species for rust diseases.] Presumably, currants and other heirloom fruits like gooseberries are too fragile and seasonal to be worth cultivating and selling for anything but preserves. One of the things I enjoy most about permaculture gardening is that I can grow "lost" varieties that just aren't available in stores.
I think our issue with onions is that they require a lot of sun, but in a small permaculture-inspired lot like ours, there will typically be many levels of taller plants that take some of the sun. Bizarrely, onions are cheaper than potatoes here, so we're not too motivated to dedicate the garden space. I think I will try shallots next year. Thanks for the idea.
Do you remember the variety name for the perennial kale? I'm trying to find one that can survive our winters. A local lady claims to have accidentally bred one in her garden, and have offered to give out seeds in the fall. I hope she remembers us :-)
The variety was just called "Russian Red Kale". Unfortunately, it looks like it didn't survive this spring's unseasonable heat and drought. This fall, I'm planting "Homesteaders Rainbow Perennial Kale Grex" from Experimental Farm Network, so we'll see what happens.
The secret to redcurrant wine us to use only redcurrant. No water (unlike most fruit wine). I've read that redcurrants are the most similar fruit to grapes for wine-making.
Before fermentation gets going, you'll need enough juice/must to take a gravity reading. Make a note of it. SG of about 1.035 is typical.
Initial fermentation lasts maybe a week or so. After that, you should squeeze the juice out of the berries, and separate the remains from the fermenting must. We put the berries in a brewing bag, and just lift it out of the must.
(Using frozen berries, and adding pectic enzyme in the beginning, helps with extracting must from the berries.)
Now you know the volume of must, and can use a chaptalization calculator (like this one: https://www.vinolab.hr/calculator/chaptalisation-additions-en38 ) with the gravity reading you took earlier to figure out how much sugar to add. We shoot for about 12-13% ABV.
When fermentation slows down a bit, you can transfer to secondary, and wait until the CO2 is gone. Then lower the acidity using eg. Calcium Carbonate. Most of the acidity in currants comes from citric acid, which is a bit harsh, and should be reduced.
Thank you for taking the time to write this up! For all that I love grape wines, I'd never looked deeply into home winemaking as yet. [It seemed like another space- and money-consuming hobby I wouldn't have time for, and I've got a couple of those already.]
I'm assuming the closest grape wine equivalent would be Pinot or Gamay Noir? Do you ferment the sugars to near dryness, or leave some residual sugar? Does the currant wine have any effervescence?
I haven't tried Gamai Noir I think. Pinot, yes, I can see that. We ferment completely dry, and let the wine stand in secondary until there's no effervescence. I feel there's enough sweetness from fruit esters and other substances after fermentation. Also dry wine is easier to handle, I don't have to worry about re-fermentation in the bottle.
Don't tell anybody I said this, but you can mix table sugar in the wine before serving if you want a sweeter/more desert type wine.
Anyway, that's just what we do these days, in fruit wine there's unlimited room for experimenting with styles and flavors.
Man this is awesome! Sounds like you have a super productive system, if certain kinds of foods have been frustrating you.
I'm curious about what system you have for urine reclamation. I've heard a lot about this recently, quite suddenly it seems. Both the No-Till Growers Podcast and Gastropod did episodes with the Rich Earth Instutue last month, and I've heard about pilot projects for in-home reclamation systems. Can you share what your setup there is and how you process what you get?
Oh, no system. We just pee in the garden (if the neighbors aren't out). Or, in a watering pot like this: https://www.guldkannan.se/ , which we then use in the garden. It's recommended that you don't use urine on plants that will be eaten within a week or two.
Most of the urine fertilizer mentions I've seen suggested keeping it in jugs for months to let it ferment so that it doesn't burn the plants. That always struck me as excessive, since human urine is relatively sterile and dilute by comparison with other animals.
And yes, the spouse has watered the garden directly on occasion, especially when we're trying to scare off rabbits or other critters that don't fancy carnivore pee.
The Rich Earth Institute has been pushing for feces reclamation as well, which you absolutely need to compost first. Urine I'm not so sure, I know my wife wouldn't eat anything if she knew we'd been "watering it personally." I really hope to have some kind of system in the future to streamline and maximize nutrient reclamation.
You might find The Humanure Handbook of interest. I'm not going to go out and replace our flush toilets without more innovation, though.
It gets really pungent after a day or two so it's best to use it fresh :-) We've never burnt any plants with it.
I wish I liked purslane. It's ....slimy? Bitter? :( it grows so well I wish we could eat it too
I also have never read success with cilantro....
If anyone knows the secret please share.
I'll chime in mostly just to say that I'm 100% on-board the Permaculture "train" even though I'm still pretty much a beginner on the topic. My mind needs a "learn-as-I-go" method to grow in this way rather than periods of intense study and then application of that knowledge.
Anyway, I don't have much to add other than to say that I'm very interested in reading Permaculture content. I still visit /r/Permaculture, but it doesn't feel the same, maybe just because I'm sour on Reddit as a whole. And I've always found the Permies.com layout super confusing and awkward to use. I'm mostly a lurker just because my time is taken up with other things. But to get me to stop rambling (think of all the text I've deleted from this comment box!), I'll share the two things I'm proud of from this year in my Permaculture adventures: my chicken coop/storage shed in-progress and my air prune boxes full of trees.
The chicken coop will be 16' x 20', with one 16' x 10' section (closest to the camera) being a storage shed for all of the stuff I keep outside and in the garage. It'll free up a ton of space in the garage, give my tools some protection from the elements, and let me get organized. The section furthest from the camera will of course be for chickens. They'll step out of that into what is currently my compost area but which will soon also be their 100' x 125' chicken yard. I've been slow to work on the building, but I'm getting excited, especially now that the hardest parts (cutting down a 11" wide tree, the first tree I've ever cut down that was scary large, and putting in the four corner posts) are done. I'm modeling this whole chicken yard/compost area after Edible Acres'.
The air prune boxes are full mostly of black oaks, but I also have a few shagbark hickories that have popped up and some pawpaw seeds that I'm still waiting on. I'm not giving up on either of the latter two yet, as I know both of them are slow to start. Once again, I'm sort of trying to follow in Edible Acres' footsteps in selling plants. I feel a bit of trepidation about the "selling" part because I have so little experience with that, but I feel good that the trees look very nice. I hope their root systems look just as nice and that their quality is helpful in finding them homes. And I do have some connections that will help move that along. I may just be giving a bunch away as a way to repay some folks and build better connections, and while I'd like to at least recoup the cost of the air prune boxes, if I can finally repay some folks that I owe, I'll be happy about that.
I love Edible Acres videos! I'm a little envious of your chicken coop plans. We asked the previous property owners to remove their chicken coop before we purchased the place. I'd just gotten some bad medical news and wasn't thinking I'd be able to take care of live animals for quite a while, if at all. The space has now been given over to perennial flowers, and there's nothing like well worked-in chicken manure for plant growth...
Goose poop covered straw/hay is also very good fertilizer + mulch combo :)
But yes live animals are for people who don't want to travel ever again -..- it's okay you can always trade with a neighbor who raised backyard chickens
Hi permies! I would love a dedicated community for this on Tildes!
Here’s my first question. I need to find some flowers / berries that do well on a woods edge - so mostly/partial shade - preferably not thorny ones. I’m in Zone 5/6. Any ideas??
Ooh, have I got answers! You're in good climate for elderberry cultivation. They'll do okay in shade, but produce less fruit than in full sun. Elderberries normally fruit copiously, so this may not be much of a problem. The fruit is edible with cooking and sweetening, it's a common medicinal, and the wine is notorious. Elderberry foliage and flowers can be elegantly ornamental. It's a native plant in much of the U.S. and Canada.
There are thornless commercial raspberry varieties. These can be expensive and may not be as flavorful as the wild thorny types. We're working with the thorny ones in hedges to steer deer away from more delicate plantings. With practice, you can harvest from thorny raspberry thickets without getting too badly scratched.
Amelanchier (serviceberry, Juneberry, Saskatoon) is another North American native valued for fruit and flowers. It does well at partially shaded woods margins, but you'll have to hurry to beat birds and critters to the fruit.
Sumac is a pretty (if weedy) shrub at forest margins in much of North America. The foliage turns brilliant colors in autumn, and the seeds make a tasty citric tea or seasoning.
Gooseberries, currants, Jostaberries (less thorny gooseberry/currant hybrid) all tolerate some shade.
Gooseberries are green (not showy), extremely sour and super pokey. I do not recommend except as deer defense.
Currants are sour too but at least they're super pretty.
Thanks for the recommendations! (Not op just happy to see your answer)
Sour berries make great preserves (and sorbets) with enough sweetening. And they're very good for you. There's some evidence that foods bred for sweetness or other commercially valuable traits aren't quite as nutritious as what our ancestors ate, and I think it's beneficial to incorporate a wide range of heirloom foods in my diet.
If you wait until they're completely ripe, gooseberries become fairly sweet. They'll still poke you, though. And you'll have to eat them all within like 3 days :)
Oh....today I learned I've never eaten a ripe one
Do they turn all the way purple? I've eaten sour ones that are slightly purple I thought that's that....maybe birds have eaten all the ripe ones and I've never even seen it lol
Most varieties of gooseberries blush pink or turn purple when they're ready to eat. Green gooseberries are notoriously sour, but they contain high levels of pectin, the jelling agent that solidifies jams and jellies. So you can mix them in with other sweeter fruits to get better preserves.
We have two kinds in our garden, a green one that turns slightly yellow when ripe, and one that goes from light to dark purple.
One that I would like to get going in my MI 5/6 is PawPaw. An understory tree that’s very happy in mottled sun, and has a very tasty fruit that you can’t get in stores (doesn’t store basically at all).
Now I need suggestions for keeping deer away...😠🤬
I got up this morning and found they'd gotten into the netted enclosure for my raised beds. They ate the leaves off all the beans, grazed the hot pepper plants down to 6" tall, and made a dent in the tomatoes.
Short of building an 8' tall wooden stockade or metal fence, which is really, really inconvenient given the layout, I'm hoping for something that doesn't require daily reapplication during the rainy season.
I don't have experience chasing off deer, but if the place smells heavily of predators that might do the trick. A really active cat or dog with strong prey drive could suffice. Even just to let them pee along the perimeter might be good. Others likely have more hands-on experience with the subject and can give you better insight though.
Anyone tried setting up keyhole gardens?
Any build plans you'd recommend, specific materials that worked well for you, or general cost-saving tips on materials?
This summer has been exceptionally brutal down in Texas, so I'm interested in building one out for next spring to test out for drought resistance and shade benefits.
I’m not sure how a keyhole garden will help with drought or shade - raised beds generally increase drainage. I’m still a fan for beds for most environments because you can control the soil, increase drainage, and they’re just easier to work in.
I was in San Antonio for 5 years, and had mixed success gardening, mostly maintaining perennials that were already established. I would look into shade cloth and irrigation. Drip irrigation, wicking beds, or Olla pots might fit your need.
AIUI, apart from controlling the soil, the drought-friendly benefits come from the fact that the walls are typically heavily insulated (cinderblock, brick, builders' stone), the geometry minimizes the soil-wall-contact surface area, and probably most importantly, people tend to put a dense layer of cardboard/paper waste at the bottom which takes a few years to decay and acts as a sponge-like base that captures runoff drainage. Long-term, the central compost is supposed to act as a funnel to keep the soil organic-matter rich and keep the water retention high after the cardboard breaks down.
I definitely plan to combine with shade netting and irrigation as well, but the million dollar question in my book whether or not the higher construction cost and "bonus features" described above are worth it compared to conventional raised beds with shade netting and irrigation alone.
Those are great points. My raised beds have been thinner wood and metal, so didn’t think of the bed construction as insulative.