I remember my therapist talking to me about Queer Time when I first came out to him, and talked about how I felt that it was impacting my ability to following the traditional script of life. The...
I remember my therapist talking to me about Queer Time when I first came out to him, and talked about how I felt that it was impacting my ability to following the traditional script of life. The idea stuck with me for a while, and it cropped up on my Mastodon feed today, so I thought I'd share it here.
As someone who isn't queer, but who has friends and family who are, I'm curious to understand a little better. Would you say that you understand the use of the term queer time to be a summary of...
As someone who isn't queer, but who has friends and family who are, I'm curious to understand a little better. Would you say that you understand the use of the term queer time to be a summary of all the things that cause someone who is queer to live their life on a cadence or schedule that is out of step with conventional norms?
(Whatever conventional means anyway, but basically the assumed life progression and age milestones from the nuclear family era?)
Would it be used in a liberating way, as in, acknowledging that you aren't living life "wrong," "behind," or "out of order" but rather to your own nature? Giving yourself permission to be you?
Do you think that the some of the larger changes in norms, such as marrying later, deferring or not having children, etc, has made being queer feel less "conspicuous" if that makes sense?
Apologies for the questions! I do try to keep up on the current thinking on these things, but don't have much direct exposure on a daily basis.
The article talks about five life events (completing education, entering the labour force, becoming financially independent, getting married, and becoming a parent) which traditionally mark the...
Exemplary
The article talks about five life events (completing education, entering the labour force, becoming financially independent, getting married, and becoming a parent) which traditionally mark the entrance into adulthood. For queer people these events , if they happen at all, tend not to mark becoming adults in the same way. Often because we have a lot of other, unresolved things in our lives relating to our identities if we have not yet, or only just come out. Trauma from an upbringing where we couldn't be ourselves, the breakdown of a long-term relationship because of our gender or sexuality, the long process of transitioning. All of these and more impact on one's ability to focus on those 5 things, to the point where they can get put on the back burner, where they're even achievable at all. For queer people in certain places, parenthood might be off the table forever, for instance.
I have certainly found Queer Time a helpful lens through which to view my life so far. It helps me to not feel like a failure when my younger sister is overtaking me in some of those 5 events; when I don't have as much to show for my 31 years on this earth as others do. My life so far has been marked and shaped by dysphoria and trauma, which I have only recently come to discover. The outsized effects of those, and all of the associated depression and anxiety they caused have held me back in a lot of ways, and it's of great benefit to feel like I'm not the only person who's been fucked up by growing up queer but not realising it at the time. It is liberating in a sense to know that there are a community of people (and not just queers, either, I should add!) now rejecting those events as the markers of adulthood, and instead letting things like overcoming an addiction, or healing trauma be their guideposts for when they have become adults.
I do think that a lot of the changing views towards marriage and having children are helping those parts of being queer not seem unusual to others. Whether or not they have helped me or any of my friends feel less conspicuous is another question, and one that I don't think I have an answer to (for one thing not all of us want to be inconspicuous!). Perhaps it's down to the fact that liberation from the "script" of non-queer life is sort of like choosing to have a second adolescence. You get to feel young and vital. You don't have to have all the answers, you can make mistakes, you can still be figuring out who you are, and the queer community accepts you regardless. It's a heady feeling, and one that makes you look at the rest of the aspects of society you have rejected by being queer and think "well hang on then, I don't have to be straight or cis to be happy. What else don't I have to do to be fulfilled in my life?"
Thank you, I found your answers very insightful! I particularly appreciate your comment about being conspicuous, because it made me realize an assumption I baked into my question. I'm reminded of...
Thank you, I found your answers very insightful! I particularly appreciate your comment about being conspicuous, because it made me realize an assumption I baked into my question.
I'm reminded of what a bubble I live in socially. My brother is gay and married, I have friends and colleagues that are queer and trans. But my closest family and friends generally tend towards having eschewed many of these life events as being required milestones. Of my 10 closest family and friends four are married (the rest likely never will), two have kids (one might look at adoption later), it's fifty fifty on who was a traditional student or not, etc.
It's good to be reminded of the challenges folks face from social pressures and assumptions outside of my own little bubble.
I've always thought that "adulting" was a rather childish thing to worry about. Being an adult is being mature and accepting responsibility, not having responsibility thrust upon you. I've seen...
I've always thought that "adulting" was a rather childish thing to worry about. Being an adult is being mature and accepting responsibility, not having responsibility thrust upon you. I've seen many teenaged parents, and I can tell you that having a kid absolutely does not make you grow up - although I do think that many people will not grow up if they are not forced to do so in one way or another. I grew up at a young age because of my poor home situation. As a result I find it difficult to avoid dismissing the "adulting"-using crowd as sheltered, well-off people who grew up with too many safety nets to understand what failure really means.
But perhaps the strongest reason why I'm not a fan of "adulting" is simply because I never really felt the need to compare my life to others. Who knows? Maybe this is one way I'm uniquely broken, because it seems that most people around me care very, very much. It never really made sense for me because I've always had a shitty life compared to everyone else from growing up poor. And what exactly would I tell them to help them? Change the perspectives you've built your life on since before you were a toddler?
Regardless of queer interpretations of time and adulthood, "adulting" has always been overrated. As someone who doesn't really remember a time when I wasn't "old", I can tell you that it has always. Being the buzzkill who chokes out all the fires of youth will make people hate you. It doesn't even matter if you're giving them the space to do things their way; your very presence will feel like a judgement to them. I'm thinking of all the times it sucked when I was a kid, but it still sucks today; I'm in my 30s and even though I try to be generally easygoing and permissive in general, my disinterest in so many things people find fun combined with my prematurely balding head is making me feel positively ancient.
I generally am of the opinion that people shouldn't worry too much about others perceptions or social pressures, and focus on pursuing your own happiness. That said, I think it is easier for...
I generally am of the opinion that people shouldn't worry too much about others perceptions or social pressures, and focus on pursuing your own happiness.
That said, I think it is easier for someone who is part of the normative majority to discard those concerns. When you already feel different because of who you are, I suspect you feel the weight of those expectations more greatly, and feel pressure to achieve the expected milestones.
In a way, being different without consequence is a privilege afforded most to those who are the same. And I say this as a white man who is as straight laced as they come. No one looks at me doing my own thing and judges all men or white people or straight people because of my own eccentricity.
IME Adulting has never really meant "fitting in" or measuring against others exactly. It's definitely been more about feeling incapable of managing what seem like "easy" life tasks. Keeping on top...
IME Adulting has never really meant "fitting in" or measuring against others exactly. It's definitely been more about feeling incapable of managing what seem like "easy" life tasks. Keeping on top of bills, getting laundry both washed and actually put away, vacuuming ever, etc. So yes there's a nebulous norm we're comparing ourselves to, but it's mostly I think, based on perceptions of our parents when we were young, and some comparisons to our older workplace peers. Maybe some folks are also being hit by influencers but I don't watch lifestyle social media outside of "Got ADHD? Here's some tips" sorts of things.
Nevermind that we didn't see all the mistakes or the times the oil didn't get changed or that while the laundry was put away, a dozen other tasks went postponed or undone especially when raising children. And we still don't see the home life of most of our peers.
I don't care if Gen Z finds "adulting" cringe these days. They feel the same pressure to perform. And they've been really appreciative of the perspective that we're all sort of making it up as we go. Same concepts, different word.
In the context of the article, I think they are using the term somewhat differently. I think a challenge in communication is that there are so many communities, that develop so many meanings for...
In the context of the article, I think they are using the term somewhat differently. I think a challenge in communication is that there are so many communities, that develop so many meanings for shared terms, in addition to developing their own unique terminology.
I try to adapt to the usage of the community I happen to be engaging with. In this case, or at least in the context of this article, it appears they are using the term more in the context of comparing major life milestones.
I do see why the term might mean something different in ADHD communities, just like I'm familiar with the term in a nonspecific case like "I'm tired and don't adulting for the day."
To be clearer, the term "adulting" among my peers was not ADHD specific, it was mostly about "doing things adults do" whether because you failed "to adult" that day or struggled with "adulting" or...
To be clearer, the term "adulting" among my peers was not ADHD specific, it was mostly about "doing things adults do" whether because you failed "to adult" that day or struggled with "adulting" or congratulated yourself for successfully adulting or whatever.
The ADHD aspect is more in reference to influencers possibly impacting peoples' concepts of "adulting".
My conversations with college students lead me to believe that whether they use the term or not, they still struggle with the feeling that they "should" be able to manage these things and they seem to appreciate that all of us are just making it up as we go.
Yeah most of the content I've seen around "adulting" were aimed at people who either didn't know how to do or were otherwise struggling with common household and bureaucratic tasks, often because...
Yeah most of the content I've seen around "adulting" were aimed at people who either didn't know how to do or were otherwise struggling with common household and bureaucratic tasks, often because they only recently started living away from their parents/other caregivers. But I come to it from a very similar perspective to you, as this type of content helped funnel me into the "ADHD coping tips" sphere, so maybe there's some other use of it on the internet that I wasn't exposed to, idk.
I'm turning 30 next month. I've lived under my (grand)parents' roof nearly my entire life, excluding two years which I spent going to college out of state, which I dropped out of and am still...
I'm turning 30 next month. I've lived under my (grand)parents' roof nearly my entire life, excluding two years which I spent going to college out of state, which I dropped out of and am still paying off loans for. I have never had a long internal discussion about my sexual identity because it just didn't feel like something I could afford to "waste time" on, when I didn't have any financial security or long-term career prospects. And you're right, I shouldn't compare myself to others who I perceive to have their shit together. But I hope it's not strange to hear that I look at myself and say, "I'm failing at adulting". It's not too different from the classic internet insult of someone living out of their parents' basement. (Also for what it's worth, I do comsider myself one of those sheltered kids!)
I'm glad that, when it comes to the milestones of "adulting" as written in the article, I've never felt the pressure to have children, or marry. I will admit that I do relate to this strange feeling of inadequacy, though. My family will talk about my old classmates or distant family members my age who have gotten married, purchased homes, etc. as if those facts speak for themselves - that they've "made it". I know that I should be the final decider on what achievements define me, but as far as some in the family are concerned, I'll never get to step "raise children" and am therefore irrelevant. Or at least worrisome.
Silva found that her respondents had constructed new markers for coming of age based on “self realization gleaned from denouncing a painful past and reconstructing an independent, complete self”—by overcoming addiction, say, or reframing trauma as leading to empowerment. It’s these personal milestones—and having their stories listened to and validated—that allowed Silva’s subjects to claim the “dignity and respect due adults.”
Queer scholar Jack Halberstam’s 2005 book In a Queer Time and Place argues that “queer uses of time and space develop… in opposition to the institutions of family, heterosexuality, and reproduction.” Queerness itself is “an outcome of strange temporalities, imaginative life schedules, and eccentric economic practices.” It is inflected by time-warping experiences as diverse as coming out, gender transitions, and generation-defining tragedies such as the AIDS epidemic. That is, queerness is constituted by its difference from conventional imperatives of time.
Rather than strive toward the five “objective life events,” Taylor’s respondents continue to participate in conventionally perceived “irresponsible and thus less respectable” scene-related activities such as “organizing or attending dance parties and other music-related events, playing and dancing to music, sexual promiscuity, [and] recreational drug use.” Rather than offer self-conscious commentary about to what extent they were or weren’t “adulting,” they suggested that the yardstick of age-appropriate behavior was irrelevant in their social lives.
I recently re-read Oscar Wilde’s The Picture of Dorian Gray, and I was struck by how Dorian’s inability to physically age and his commitment to youthful hedonism might be read as an expression of queer time. Dorian is certainly not “adulting.” The literature scholar Elana Gomel notes that as time passes, his “frantic pursuit of sensation is accompanied by a progressive emotional and physical anesthesia. The more Dorian strives to experience anything at all, the less he is capable of it: ‘But I seem to have lost the passion, and forgotten the desire.’ ” Does Dorian wish somewhere in him to be allowed to be not necessarily “adult” or to physically age, but still be understood as older?
I'm sure this article rings true for a lot of LGBTQ people. For me it doesn't, and I do often wonder if I missed a part of the queer experience. I'm gay so I definitely felt like my childhood and...
I'm sure this article rings true for a lot of LGBTQ people. For me it doesn't, and I do often wonder if I missed a part of the queer experience.
I'm gay so I definitely felt like my childhood and teenage years were weird and not typical.
However I came out at 18, was privileged enough to have an education and lucked into a job immediately (by a hair even, my company stopped hiring unexperienced workers shortly after I was onboarded), then I got into a relationship with a person that's just as chill as I am, so naturally we were inclined to settle down in our own home.
We can't get married and we don't want kids, but otherwise we tick all the boxes that a cishet person would be "expected" to tick. I personally feel like I'm "adulting", and I'm happy with it, although there's still a part of me that would have enjoyed a different life.
I forgot what the point of this comment was, besides sharing my anecdotal life story. I guess it's important to always remember that everyone's lives are different and what you think is the perfect life might not fit other people.
A formal education + a job + a family can be a good filter for well-adjusted people, but there are tons of people who satisfy those conditions while being as clueless as ever. At the same time there are people without a college degree who excel in their fields. There are people who lead fulfilling lives without a partner and/or children, and there are people who don't want to work or cannot work but can still provide value to society and are wanted and loved by their peers. Each life is different, so treating everyone with the same level of respect goes a long way.
I think as more and more queer youth come out when they're younger and not later when it can really topple the "expected" pathways of life, it'll be interesting to see how experiences change. I...
I think as more and more queer youth come out when they're younger and not later when it can really topple the "expected" pathways of life, it'll be interesting to see how experiences change. I didn't come out til much later and my first queer relationships definitely had some regression to more immature/teenage type decision making at first.
But there's still a fundamental rejection of the status quo that can go along with queerness, and that's very much where I am at 40. My life does not look like many other people's lives and that is ok if I'm happy with it. Questioning monogamy, the role of platonic friendships, whether to start an alpaca ranch in rural Colorado, etc. are all just aspects of that.
But there's no "right" way to be queer either. So don't feel like you've missed something or done something wrong by not having those shared experiences.
I remember my therapist talking to me about Queer Time when I first came out to him, and talked about how I felt that it was impacting my ability to following the traditional script of life. The idea stuck with me for a while, and it cropped up on my Mastodon feed today, so I thought I'd share it here.
As someone who isn't queer, but who has friends and family who are, I'm curious to understand a little better. Would you say that you understand the use of the term queer time to be a summary of all the things that cause someone who is queer to live their life on a cadence or schedule that is out of step with conventional norms?
(Whatever conventional means anyway, but basically the assumed life progression and age milestones from the nuclear family era?)
Would it be used in a liberating way, as in, acknowledging that you aren't living life "wrong," "behind," or "out of order" but rather to your own nature? Giving yourself permission to be you?
Do you think that the some of the larger changes in norms, such as marrying later, deferring or not having children, etc, has made being queer feel less "conspicuous" if that makes sense?
Apologies for the questions! I do try to keep up on the current thinking on these things, but don't have much direct exposure on a daily basis.
Have a great day!
The article talks about five life events (completing education, entering the labour force, becoming financially independent, getting married, and becoming a parent) which traditionally mark the entrance into adulthood. For queer people these events , if they happen at all, tend not to mark becoming adults in the same way. Often because we have a lot of other, unresolved things in our lives relating to our identities if we have not yet, or only just come out. Trauma from an upbringing where we couldn't be ourselves, the breakdown of a long-term relationship because of our gender or sexuality, the long process of transitioning. All of these and more impact on one's ability to focus on those 5 things, to the point where they can get put on the back burner, where they're even achievable at all. For queer people in certain places, parenthood might be off the table forever, for instance.
I have certainly found Queer Time a helpful lens through which to view my life so far. It helps me to not feel like a failure when my younger sister is overtaking me in some of those 5 events; when I don't have as much to show for my 31 years on this earth as others do. My life so far has been marked and shaped by dysphoria and trauma, which I have only recently come to discover. The outsized effects of those, and all of the associated depression and anxiety they caused have held me back in a lot of ways, and it's of great benefit to feel like I'm not the only person who's been fucked up by growing up queer but not realising it at the time. It is liberating in a sense to know that there are a community of people (and not just queers, either, I should add!) now rejecting those events as the markers of adulthood, and instead letting things like overcoming an addiction, or healing trauma be their guideposts for when they have become adults.
I do think that a lot of the changing views towards marriage and having children are helping those parts of being queer not seem unusual to others. Whether or not they have helped me or any of my friends feel less conspicuous is another question, and one that I don't think I have an answer to (for one thing not all of us want to be inconspicuous!). Perhaps it's down to the fact that liberation from the "script" of non-queer life is sort of like choosing to have a second adolescence. You get to feel young and vital. You don't have to have all the answers, you can make mistakes, you can still be figuring out who you are, and the queer community accepts you regardless. It's a heady feeling, and one that makes you look at the rest of the aspects of society you have rejected by being queer and think "well hang on then, I don't have to be straight or cis to be happy. What else don't I have to do to be fulfilled in my life?"
Thank you, I found your answers very insightful! I particularly appreciate your comment about being conspicuous, because it made me realize an assumption I baked into my question.
I'm reminded of what a bubble I live in socially. My brother is gay and married, I have friends and colleagues that are queer and trans. But my closest family and friends generally tend towards having eschewed many of these life events as being required milestones. Of my 10 closest family and friends four are married (the rest likely never will), two have kids (one might look at adoption later), it's fifty fifty on who was a traditional student or not, etc.
It's good to be reminded of the challenges folks face from social pressures and assumptions outside of my own little bubble.
Have a great day!
I've always thought that "adulting" was a rather childish thing to worry about. Being an adult is being mature and accepting responsibility, not having responsibility thrust upon you. I've seen many teenaged parents, and I can tell you that having a kid absolutely does not make you grow up - although I do think that many people will not grow up if they are not forced to do so in one way or another. I grew up at a young age because of my poor home situation. As a result I find it difficult to avoid dismissing the "adulting"-using crowd as sheltered, well-off people who grew up with too many safety nets to understand what failure really means.
But perhaps the strongest reason why I'm not a fan of "adulting" is simply because I never really felt the need to compare my life to others. Who knows? Maybe this is one way I'm uniquely broken, because it seems that most people around me care very, very much. It never really made sense for me because I've always had a shitty life compared to everyone else from growing up poor. And what exactly would I tell them to help them? Change the perspectives you've built your life on since before you were a toddler?
Regardless of queer interpretations of time and adulthood, "adulting" has always been overrated. As someone who doesn't really remember a time when I wasn't "old", I can tell you that it has always. Being the buzzkill who chokes out all the fires of youth will make people hate you. It doesn't even matter if you're giving them the space to do things their way; your very presence will feel like a judgement to them. I'm thinking of all the times it sucked when I was a kid, but it still sucks today; I'm in my 30s and even though I try to be generally easygoing and permissive in general, my disinterest in so many things people find fun combined with my prematurely balding head is making me feel positively ancient.
I generally am of the opinion that people shouldn't worry too much about others perceptions or social pressures, and focus on pursuing your own happiness.
That said, I think it is easier for someone who is part of the normative majority to discard those concerns. When you already feel different because of who you are, I suspect you feel the weight of those expectations more greatly, and feel pressure to achieve the expected milestones.
In a way, being different without consequence is a privilege afforded most to those who are the same. And I say this as a white man who is as straight laced as they come. No one looks at me doing my own thing and judges all men or white people or straight people because of my own eccentricity.
IME Adulting has never really meant "fitting in" or measuring against others exactly. It's definitely been more about feeling incapable of managing what seem like "easy" life tasks. Keeping on top of bills, getting laundry both washed and actually put away, vacuuming ever, etc. So yes there's a nebulous norm we're comparing ourselves to, but it's mostly I think, based on perceptions of our parents when we were young, and some comparisons to our older workplace peers. Maybe some folks are also being hit by influencers but I don't watch lifestyle social media outside of "Got ADHD? Here's some tips" sorts of things.
Nevermind that we didn't see all the mistakes or the times the oil didn't get changed or that while the laundry was put away, a dozen other tasks went postponed or undone especially when raising children. And we still don't see the home life of most of our peers.
I don't care if Gen Z finds "adulting" cringe these days. They feel the same pressure to perform. And they've been really appreciative of the perspective that we're all sort of making it up as we go. Same concepts, different word.
In the context of the article, I think they are using the term somewhat differently. I think a challenge in communication is that there are so many communities, that develop so many meanings for shared terms, in addition to developing their own unique terminology.
I try to adapt to the usage of the community I happen to be engaging with. In this case, or at least in the context of this article, it appears they are using the term more in the context of comparing major life milestones.
I do see why the term might mean something different in ADHD communities, just like I'm familiar with the term in a nonspecific case like "I'm tired and don't adulting for the day."
But, when in Rome as the saying goes.
To be clearer, the term "adulting" among my peers was not ADHD specific, it was mostly about "doing things adults do" whether because you failed "to adult" that day or struggled with "adulting" or congratulated yourself for successfully adulting or whatever.
The ADHD aspect is more in reference to influencers possibly impacting peoples' concepts of "adulting".
My conversations with college students lead me to believe that whether they use the term or not, they still struggle with the feeling that they "should" be able to manage these things and they seem to appreciate that all of us are just making it up as we go.
Yeah most of the content I've seen around "adulting" were aimed at people who either didn't know how to do or were otherwise struggling with common household and bureaucratic tasks, often because they only recently started living away from their parents/other caregivers. But I come to it from a very similar perspective to you, as this type of content helped funnel me into the "ADHD coping tips" sphere, so maybe there's some other use of it on the internet that I wasn't exposed to, idk.
I'm turning 30 next month. I've lived under my (grand)parents' roof nearly my entire life, excluding two years which I spent going to college out of state, which I dropped out of and am still paying off loans for. I have never had a long internal discussion about my sexual identity because it just didn't feel like something I could afford to "waste time" on, when I didn't have any financial security or long-term career prospects. And you're right, I shouldn't compare myself to others who I perceive to have their shit together. But I hope it's not strange to hear that I look at myself and say, "I'm failing at adulting". It's not too different from the classic internet insult of someone living out of their parents' basement. (Also for what it's worth, I do comsider myself one of those sheltered kids!)
I'm glad that, when it comes to the milestones of "adulting" as written in the article, I've never felt the pressure to have children, or marry. I will admit that I do relate to this strange feeling of inadequacy, though. My family will talk about my old classmates or distant family members my age who have gotten married, purchased homes, etc. as if those facts speak for themselves - that they've "made it". I know that I should be the final decider on what achievements define me, but as far as some in the family are concerned, I'll never get to step "raise children" and am therefore irrelevant. Or at least worrisome.
I'm sure this article rings true for a lot of LGBTQ people. For me it doesn't, and I do often wonder if I missed a part of the queer experience.
I'm gay so I definitely felt like my childhood and teenage years were weird and not typical.
However I came out at 18, was privileged enough to have an education and lucked into a job immediately (by a hair even, my company stopped hiring unexperienced workers shortly after I was onboarded), then I got into a relationship with a person that's just as chill as I am, so naturally we were inclined to settle down in our own home.
We can't get married and we don't want kids, but otherwise we tick all the boxes that a cishet person would be "expected" to tick. I personally feel like I'm "adulting", and I'm happy with it, although there's still a part of me that would have enjoyed a different life.
I forgot what the point of this comment was, besides sharing my anecdotal life story. I guess it's important to always remember that everyone's lives are different and what you think is the perfect life might not fit other people.
A formal education + a job + a family can be a good filter for well-adjusted people, but there are tons of people who satisfy those conditions while being as clueless as ever. At the same time there are people without a college degree who excel in their fields. There are people who lead fulfilling lives without a partner and/or children, and there are people who don't want to work or cannot work but can still provide value to society and are wanted and loved by their peers. Each life is different, so treating everyone with the same level of respect goes a long way.
I think as more and more queer youth come out when they're younger and not later when it can really topple the "expected" pathways of life, it'll be interesting to see how experiences change. I didn't come out til much later and my first queer relationships definitely had some regression to more immature/teenage type decision making at first.
But there's still a fundamental rejection of the status quo that can go along with queerness, and that's very much where I am at 40. My life does not look like many other people's lives and that is ok if I'm happy with it. Questioning monogamy, the role of platonic friendships, whether to start an alpaca ranch in rural Colorado, etc. are all just aspects of that.
But there's no "right" way to be queer either. So don't feel like you've missed something or done something wrong by not having those shared experiences.