21 votes

‘T4T’ isn’t just about dating, it’s about community care

22 comments

  1. [8]
    supergauntlet
    Link
    I love this article but the part that's left unsaid here is that this is a practice born out of necessity. It touches on it briefly, just like it briefly touches on how t4t is oftentimes...

    I love this article but the part that's left unsaid here is that this is a practice born out of necessity. It touches on it briefly, just like it briefly touches on how t4t is oftentimes trauma4trauma. but the simple reality is that even of the cis people who claim to be supportive, very few actually will even so much as lift a finger in solidarity.

    With 'allies' like these is it any wonder trans people are prioritizing looking out for one another? The cis people I know that are decent are rad as hell. but the simple fact of the matter is our energy is finite and we can only keep so many relationships alive. Why pour my energy into a relationship with a cis person that, when push comes to shove, is much more likely than a trans person to bail with no further support? When the stakes are what they are, in many cases t4t is simple survival.

    15 votes
    1. [7]
      GenuinelyCrooked
      Link Parent
      If you, or any other trans people, have any examples that you feel comfortable offering of what I can do as a cis person to be a better ally, I'm always looking to learn more. I understand that...

      If you, or any other trans people, have any examples that you feel comfortable offering of what I can do as a cis person to be a better ally, I'm always looking to learn more. I understand that it's my job to educate myself and that the best thing to do is listen to the trans people in my life and support them as individuals and members of the community, so if you'd rather not say anything, that's cool too.

      20 votes
      1. [2]
        Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        In the context of the article, I think a lot of what is being brought up is the fact that trans people are going to understand trans people better, because they intimately know the trans...
        • Exemplary

        In the context of the article, I think a lot of what is being brought up is the fact that trans people are going to understand trans people better, because they intimately know the trans experience. They give a few examples, such as understanding how misgendering feels (albeit their description of their reaction to misgendering seems a lot stronger than my own).

        What I think they fail to touch upon, however, is the general vibe of understanding and acceptance around gender that trans folks tend to have. One example of something that I typically discuss with folks is what kind of compliments they like to receive - if I feel like I want to compliment someone's look/vibe/outfit I typically ask first what words feel right for them. I've found many people will have words they like more than others, being drawn towards beautiful, cute, hot, sexy, handsome, rugged, or other words and often having trauma or a dislike around one or a few words in particular. I've never had a cis person ask me this, except when double checking a word they just used (wow you're really cute today!... wait is it okay to call you cute?), and when that happens it is usually a reflection of someone's nervousness and inexperience with trans folks than it is born out of experience. When it's the latter it feels natural, but when it's the former it can at times be slightly emotionally taxing because I need to essentially reassure the person that they aren't fucking up despite the fact that they usually double check on a word which matches my current gender presentation and often their assumptions about my gender, rather than checking on words which might not.

        With regards to how you can be a better ally, I believe a lot of the generic responses to this question apply here as well. The number one thing you can do is to be more active in your allyship. This could be volunteering your time or other resources to help out folks of the minority group. It could be advocating for the group politically or within your work environment or other spaces. You could read books on minorities and allyship to ensure you have tools at your disposal to know how to learn more, to not put an educational burden on minorities, or to ultimately help other folks become better allies. While there are many unique issues that come with being trans, being an ally is ultimately issue agnostic - it's about how you interface with the minority group and how you help the world treat the minority group with more respect.

        Since you asked, however, and because I'm sure there are folks reading this who are interested in what things they can do to support trans people specifically, here's a few thoughts on the matter:

        • Sometimes cis people get really upset about accidentally misgendering to the point that the person who was misgendered needs to console them. If you ever see someone apologize profusely or really take up space when apologizing, take them aside in the future and explain to them that an apology should be quick and to the point and that by making it a huge deal they're making things worse.
        • If you see that someone is misgendered, go talk to the person who did the misgendering and help them understand that it's important, maybe even offer to help them practice or whatever is needed to change the behavior.
        • Advocate on behalf of things that benefit trans folks, such as pronoun training, gender neutral bathrooms, ability to choose what name is on badges, emails, how they are referred to, etc.
        • Ask the specific trans people you know in your life if there's anything you can do to be a better ally or anything they could use help on or things that they wish were better.
        • Send a letter, email, or call your local representative and let them know that you care about trans issues. Chide them if they don't share your value.
        • Educate yourself! A personal recent favorite of mine is Kenji Yoshino's Say the Right Thing. While this book is focused on allyship in the corporate environment, it presents a lot of really useful much more generic tools for approaching allyship such as understanding Susan Silk's Ring Theory.
        • Check with local trans organizations to see what they're up to and how you can volunteer or help out. Many trans organizations will run clothing swaps so that people can get access to gender affirming clothing, if you have clothes that aren't worn out but you just don't wear them anymore because your style changed or you just don't like the piece of clothing you can see if they'll take donations.
        17 votes
        1. GenuinelyCrooked
          Link Parent
          Thank you so much for typing all of this out. I really appreciate the time that went into it!

          Thank you so much for typing all of this out. I really appreciate the time that went into it!

          3 votes
      2. [2]
        supergauntlet
        Link Parent
        This is a little zine pamphlet I saw a while back that I generally agree with: https://www.indigenousaction.org/accomplices-not-allies-abolishing-the-ally-industrial-complex/ To simplify, the term...

        This is a little zine pamphlet I saw a while back that I generally agree with: https://www.indigenousaction.org/accomplices-not-allies-abolishing-the-ally-industrial-complex/

        To simplify, the term 'ally' has been co-opted by capital to the point of meaninglessness. What good is 'allyship' from a company that will fire all its LGBTQ staff for "performance" reasons the instant interest rates go up 25 basis points? I want good allies to provide material support to the queer people they know. Rides to work/clinics/etc for those without cars/that can't drive, needle/syringe donations, but even just more basic things like wingmanning them to maybe-less-than-supportive events and death-staring bigots. I want cis gymrats to have solidarity with transmascs, so that when our government fails us and makes medically prescribed testosterone difficult or impossible to get, we have supply chains in place. I want chemistry nerds to be the ordering proxy for getting estradiol raws from China to DIY synthesize EEn.

        The world is unjust, often incredibly so. We need accomplices to fight back by any means necessary.

        13 votes
        1. GenuinelyCrooked
          Link Parent
          I love the idea of being an accomplice instead of an ally. Thank you so much for sharing! I promise to aid and abet trans people to the best of my ability. :)

          I love the idea of being an accomplice instead of an ally. Thank you so much for sharing! I promise to aid and abet trans people to the best of my ability. :)

          1 vote
      3. [2]
        Evie
        Link Parent
        I really do appreciate this sentiment! Personally, though, I think that this type of question is what trans people mean when they use it to justify t4t. So, like, look. I'm happy to befriend cis...

        I really do appreciate this sentiment! Personally, though, I think that this type of question is what trans people mean when they use it to justify t4t. So, like, look. I'm happy to befriend cis people, answer their questions, be vulnerable to them, etc. Because I'm in control of the interaction; I can withdraw at any time; if I'm not feeling it, I can just... not engage. Relationships are different. There's an element, I think, to being trans in our modern society that is almost inherently traumatic, that leaves you with often unhealthy coping strategies, that makes you frayed and ragged and often messy. And in a relationship, am I gonna trust a cis person who doesn't really have a concept of that trauma to be able to handle it well without me having to explain or justify it? When I have an emotional meltdown over an uncomfortable interaction at the post office two days after it happens, I can trust that my trans partners will just get it, immediately, and intuitively. With a cis woman, meanwhile, no matter how compassionate she is, I feel like have to explain my complex feelings about my own gender, and the cracks in my presentation, and how that relates to society, and the kind of microaggressions I deal with, and what metastability is, and I have to trust that all this messiness won't be icky or a turnoff for her -- not just once, but throughout our relationship, as I continue to struggle to navigate this world.

        I don't want to give the wrong impression, that trans people are all these fragile traumatized things that you need to treat like antique glassware. But certainly being with a trans person -- in a relationship, or just in community, gives you the freedom to comfortably be fragile, for a while, if you need to be; to trust that if you fall apart your partner will know how to put you back together because they've shared some of the same collective trauma.

        6 votes
        1. supergauntlet
          Link Parent
          I wrote something rather more depressing that's spoilered below, but a less depressing genuine suggestion for cis people who want to support trans people by simply being their friends (and we...

          I wrote something rather more depressing that's spoilered below, but a less depressing genuine suggestion for cis people who want to support trans people by simply being their friends (and we would love this! it's a running joke with transfems that we love and cherish cis guys that get it for example; this is the essence of 'the grungler' meme) would be to read Whipping Girl (this is transfem focused and I don't want to speak for others, this is just a very good explainer of what navigating society as a transfeminine person is like) and probably Who's Afraid of Gender? if you're a book-reading type. Serano and Butler are great writers and the latter is probably one of the most accessible entrypoints to gender theory I've seen. And most of all be patient. Please be patient. We're trying our best in a society that constantly tells us it will never be enough. Show us some grace.

          Depressing personal anecdote on the difficulty of life in a transphobic society Let me put it this way. Whenever I ask a trans friend 'if they remember x/y/z trans person they used to know' the first thing that pops into their head is not 'oh yeah! how are they doing?' it's always 'oh god another dead tranny'.

          Without fail.

          There is a collective trauma here on the level of the AIDS epidemic in the 80s. Every single trans person has lost people, oftentimes many people. There is a reason the trans people that interact broadly with cis society are always called brave and strong. It's selection bias, because the ones that aren't either die or stay indoors. And withdrawal from society is its own kind of death.

          9 votes
  2. DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    Yeah I think this makes sense. I've also been generally happier in relationships with other queer people. Particularly when I've dated queer men vs straight men. But my current primary partner is...

    Yeah I think this makes sense. I've also been generally happier in relationships with other queer people. Particularly when I've dated queer men vs straight men. But my current primary partner is straight and a man so it's not hard and fast.

    10 votes
  3. [3]
    sparksbet
    Link
    I'm not against dating cis people in principle... in practice, I either am great at accidentally sniffing out eggs, or my genitalia is converting them. So I've technically only dated transfems lol...

    I'm not against dating cis people in principle... in practice, I either am great at accidentally sniffing out eggs, or my genitalia is converting them. So I've technically only dated transfems lol

    More seriously, it's important for us to look out for each other within the trans community. We are each others' best allies and should work to make sure we're supporting and taking care of each other.

    10 votes
    1. [2]
      DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Look as someone who didn't figure out this nonbinary thing for a long time I thought I was good at clocking eggs. Not that good apparently. Magic egg cracking genitalia is a selling point though....

      in practice, I either am great at accidentally sniffing out eggs, or my genitalia is converting them. So I've technically only dated transfems lol

      Look as someone who didn't figure out this nonbinary thing for a long time I thought I was good at clocking eggs. Not that good apparently. Magic egg cracking genitalia is a selling point though. If you ever need a Tinder profile headline make it that! (May you not need one unless you want to, I forget people are monogamous)

      7 votes
      1. sparksbet
        Link Parent
        We're not strictly monogamous, so no worries anyway!

        We're not strictly monogamous, so no worries anyway!

        4 votes
  4. [10]
    JCPhoenix
    Link
    Is there some kind of debate or controversy within the Trans community about T4T versus dating Cis people as well? I'm not Trans, so just wondering. To me, it's not surprising that people seek out...

    Is there some kind of debate or controversy within the Trans community about T4T versus dating Cis people as well? I'm not Trans, so just wondering.

    To me, it's not surprising that people seek out those who are similar to themselves or have had similar life experiences. It's said "opposites attract." Yeah, if you're a magnet, but I don't think that's really true for people, especially with those facets that are on a deeper level.

    10 votes
    1. [9]
      Evie
      Link Parent
      I think in general most trans people do respect each other's choices and despite being pretty plugged in I've never seen meaningful discourse or disagreement about trans people's dating...

      I think in general most trans people do respect each other's choices and despite being pretty plugged in I've never seen meaningful discourse or disagreement about trans people's dating preferences (except the occasionally reactionary ragebait, which is irrelevant here). But certainly T4T dating is implicitly tied up in the central philosophical debate in the trans community; that of assimilation vs liberation. I don't want to get to into this debate, really, on tildes.net, but let it suffice to say that trans people generally fall on a spectrum where one end is "living in the midwest, please god i just want to pass, went to therapy for six months to get my hrt recommendation letter, dating a cis person of the opposite gender, trying to have a relationship with my parents, most of my friends aren't queer, working a desk job" and the other end is "part of the portland polyamorous cluster, if you don't like my gender expression fuck off, getting a cardboard box of pills from Vanuatu every six months, none of my friends are cishet, haven't talked to my family in six years, I make my living selling porn on furaffinity."

      Obviously these are slightly extreme stereotypes and most people fall somewhere on the middle of this distribution but there's a lot of disagreement in certain circles about which approach is better, safer, more joyful. As the article in the OP says T4T as an ethos is pretty tied up in the second, liberatory side of the spectrum, where the focus is building a community of radical acceptance; a support network where your happiness is no longer contingent on appeasing the cissexist standards promoted by modern society. It's not just about dating people who are similar to you, for a lot of people who identify as T4T. It's about keeping each other safe, and expressing trans love, and being a source of stability when others need it, or being held, when you need it. But in general I think people who are more interested in assimilation tend to find this approach more enviable than objectionable; ultimately, being able to live this way is kind of a privilege you only get in very progressive, or nonconfrontational, areas with high population density.

      11 votes
      1. [6]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        Your stereotypes are wonderful and I know people who fit into both as well as many in between. There is peace in fitting in if that's what you seek and there's peace in being fully authentically...

        Your stereotypes are wonderful and I know people who fit into both as well as many in between.

        There is peace in fitting in if that's what you seek and there's peace in being fully authentically yourself with zero fucks about what everyone else thinks if that is what you seek.

        And I think cis people could relate to this in many ways, especially if they took the time to actively think about their gender and their gender presentation/expression/etc. In my case it made me realize I am demi-gender and a non-binary woman, but I think I could have gone the fitting in route and never stepped out of the boxes and been "ok" too.

        I wish everyone would poke their gender with a stick now and then and see what falls out.

        (⁠*⁠❛⁠‿⁠❛⁠)⁠→------ Gender

        8 votes
        1. [3]
          Minori
          Link Parent
          This may not even be a dichotomy. There are plenty of people whose authentic self is a basic white bitch that looks forward to pumpkin spice season every year. Most people are average and they...

          There is peace in fitting in if that's what you seek and there's peace in being fully authentically yourself with zero fucks about what everyone else thinks if that is what you seek.

          This may not even be a dichotomy. There are plenty of people whose authentic self is a basic white bitch that looks forward to pumpkin spice season every year. Most people are average and they just kinda blend in. In my experience, trans people, on average, aren't very different from cis people. At least after they finish transitioning.

          11 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Yeah, this is an "and" statement for a reason!

            Yeah, this is an "and" statement for a reason!

            6 votes
          2. supergauntlet
            Link Parent
            Yeah, I would have been irritating about gender regardless, because I am an academic feminism type. But that does not describe the majority of trans people I know, most of us just want to hang out...

            Yeah, I would have been irritating about gender regardless, because I am an academic feminism type. But that does not describe the majority of trans people I know, most of us just want to hang out and exist as pretty 'normal' assimilationist people. Both are totally fine ways to live, we need solidarity for everyone.

            5 votes
        2. [2]
          supergauntlet
          Link Parent
          https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2015/01/28/cis-by-default/

          I think I could have gone the fitting in route and never stepped out of the boxes and been "ok" too.

          https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2015/01/28/cis-by-default/

          9 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Yeah that's why demi-gender fits me so well. I think there's a scale of "strength of feeling" or maybe attachment is a better word, to ones gender. I absolutely could have never poked at this and...

            Yeah that's why demi-gender fits me so well. I think there's a scale of "strength of feeling" or maybe attachment is a better word, to ones gender.

            I absolutely could have never poked at this and still struggled with "womanhood" at a societal level. It's what I did for decades. But having a shaved head and wearing almost exclusively pants and polos at work (I have two gender presentations "don't perceive me" and "Woodland Nymph at a Ren Faire") works fine in my current environment and my partner doesn't give a damn.

            I'm not fully agender, I'm definitely still leaning "woman" but im very lightly attached to it..and if I didn't have to deal with a uterus and stuff I'd probably be even less attached

            8 votes
      2. [2]
        krellor
        Link Parent
        I remember what must be close to 30 years ago seeing similar thoughts play out in the gay community in progressive pockets of more rural areas. Many folks would like to have been more open about...

        I remember what must be close to 30 years ago seeing similar thoughts play out in the gay community in progressive pockets of more rural areas. Many folks would like to have been more open about who they are, but it just wasn't safe, or they didn't feel safe doing that where they lived, and it isn't always easy to move. People built a lot of couch communities where it was safe to go and crash while also generally not advertising their identity in their day-to-day lives or outside of certain circles. A lot of the people I knew were in that middle ground where they wanted to be to be open about who they are, but aren't crusaders on a mission. From what I've seen as an outsider, trans folks have a harder time because it can be more difficult to blend in. I remember helping someone transition back in the 90's, driving them to appointments, going to social outings with them, etc. It's a tough road to hoe. It's sad to see another, younger generation going through it, though at least more bastions exist now then there used to.

        8 votes
        1. supergauntlet
          Link Parent
          The bigots do this not because they are strong, but because they are weak. Make no mistake - this is the dying gasp of a failed ideology that has brought our world nothing but pain. Never let...

          The bigots do this not because they are strong, but because they are weak. Make no mistake - this is the dying gasp of a failed ideology that has brought our world nothing but pain. Never let modern social conservatives use their nostalgia for "a better time" fool you, gender variation has always and will always exist. They see their past failures with the civil rights movement, with gay rights, and now with trans rights, and they know they are losing. They know that one day, quite soon, they will lose for good.

          But they are not going to go gently. And in the time between now and when their failure is a stain on a footnote in the history book of societal progress, they are going to do a lot of damage. Please look out for trans people as much as you can.

          9 votes