This largely depends on the situation for me. If it's a situation I know how to deal with due to experience or knowledge then I tend to just act. If I have no idea what to do I tend to freeze. As...
This largely depends on the situation for me. If it's a situation I know how to deal with due to experience or knowledge then I tend to just act. If I have no idea what to do I tend to freeze.
As for when confronted for a fight I haven't experienced that outside of when I was in school. Between my never leaving my house unnecessarily, my large size, and what my wife calls "Resting angry face" I've been lucky to never get into a fight. If only they knew I was a pacifist teddy bear who prefers to cuddles and hugs.
For context, OP is talking specifically about trauma responses to threatening situations - PTSD. Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn are the "four F's" of trauma response. OP can you clarify - are you...
OP can you clarify - are you asking, if you've been through trauma and now you have these responses in life, can you get better? What's the source of your question?
Makes sense in context, thank you. In twelve step groups, they say recovery is a lifelong process. It's never really over, just something you have to manage, like you said. I think that's true for...
Makes sense in context, thank you. In twelve step groups, they say recovery is a lifelong process. It's never really over, just something you have to manage, like you said.
I think that's true for severe trauma, especially pre-verbal. I look at it like taking care of a child with special needs. You never know when there's going to be some issue, something upsetting, or some sensitivity, how people will judge you or what will come next. You might just have to drop everything and take care of it. But it's just your responsibility, good or bad, nobody else is going to take care of that child, and you can't leave them behind.
As far as feeling comfortable to talk, even in support groups, it's not always necessarily safe or appropriate to be vulnerable. Having a safe container with strong psychic integrity is really important. I've been with groups (and around individuals) that couldn't safely hold that container.
In conversation between friends, even trusted friends, it's not always ok to just open everything up at any time. Both people have to be ready and feel safe with it. If someone just lets everything out, and the other person just isn't ready, it's not safe for anyone.
To me self-soothing and self care are by far the most important tools for trauma. Validating the pain, listening and apologizing to it - like caring for a small child - can go a very long way. It helps when you can't get what you need from family or friends, from therapy or from other people in the traumatic situation. You can still acknowledge those feelings and still keep supporting the pain. Making it a practice can help.
Well, we live in a traumatized world, and it isn't safe to be vulnerable in public. Karla McLaren talks about that in "The Language of Emotions." Culturally, I don't think humanity at large is...
Well, we live in a traumatized world, and it isn't safe to be vulnerable in public. Karla McLaren talks about that in "The Language of Emotions."
Culturally, I don't think humanity at large is emotionally literate, and definitely not equipped to handle vulnerability in others. It's hard enough to get through your own feelings. I think even professionals are often ill-equipped given all the stories about terrible mental health treatment.
Empathy is a practice and it takes self-ownership and accountability. It benefits everyone, but it's a lot of work. I think most people aren't anywhere near ready.
Edit: being held, yes. Holding your inner child as yourself could help that a lot. It's a practice, and it takes practice, and commitment, and it never ends. There are a lot of ways to self-care or love yourself "out there" but in my view, the one thing that matters most is that personal inner emotional support.
That support is something we need to learn, if it was never modeled for us. We have to start from scratch.
If you're open to it, try holding your pain, as your inner child, embracing it - with a pillow maybe - and just say something like, you're right, I'm sorry, please forgive me (or I forgive you) . Just acknowledgement. Not expecting or needing anything to change.
As others have already said, it really does depend on the situation. I never freeze. Not more than momentarily, while I decide what to do. Sometimes that decision leads to fawning, where I'll have...
As others have already said, it really does depend on the situation.
I never freeze. Not more than momentarily, while I decide what to do.
Sometimes that decision leads to fawning, where I'll have to calm someone down or placate them or reduce the tension.
Sometimes that decision leads to walking away, which I don't consider fleeing, because it's a deliberate choice to disengage, rather than running away from a threat.
But I don't fight. Not in the way people generally talk about.
I'm a total absolute pacifist. In my adult life, I have never raised a fist in anger - not even when caught off-guard. I've been known to raise an arm to block a possible attack if someone taps me on the shoulder, but the action is a deflection or a parry, rather than a punch. Hell, even if I wanted to fight someone, I wouldn't know how!
But I refuse to back down or walk away.
Two examples that epitomise my approach:
Someone tried to mug me once. It was dark. It was secluded. A man approached me, engaged me, and then surprised me with a roundhouse kick to my stomach. That hurt! He then demanded my wallet and car keys (this was before the time of smartphones). My instant reflexive response was to stand there calmly and say "No". Internally, I was terrified at the thought of the beating I was about to endure; externally, I was calm and unflinching.
It turns out that when you don't respond with either fight or flight, it confuses the fuck out of your assailant! I could see the confusion on his face. If I'd fought back, he would have known what to do: fight harder. And, he would have won, even though he was smaller than me. If I'd run away, he would have known what to do: chase me. And, he would have caught me, because I'm unfit. But, because I did neither of those things, he didn't know what to do next.
He tried to persuade me to give him my wallet and keys! HA! He threatened me, of course. I denied his threat. He did raise his fists, and I flinched slightly, but I stood my ground.
Eventually, he gave up.
More than a decade later, I was in a quiet shopping centre, outside of business hours, to visit the supermarket that was open late. I saw a group of teenagers (all male, aged about 16 to 19) physically harassing a security guard. By the time I saw them, they'd broken his spectacles, and were continuing their harassment.
I walked into the group, pulled myself up to my full height, and shouted at them. Physically, I'm a very average middle-aged man: average height, average build. Not intimidating in any way. However, my voice is not average. I have a voice that can fill a 600-seat theatre. So I stood there, shouting at teenage boys in my best theatre-filling voice, telling them to "stop" and "walk away". And... they did. Not immediately, but they backed down and, one by one, walked away.
That's me.
I've been berated for my friends for walking towards trouble, even in the full knowledge that I can not and will not fight.
So... is that "fight"? It's definitely not flight or freeze or fawn. Maybe we need a fifth option: "face" (as in "confront").
Ya know, as much as I may not always agree with you, I have to admit that I appreciate you. We only got four choices; you might have more fight in you than you think ;)
Ya know, as much as I may not always agree with you, I have to admit that I appreciate you.
We only got four choices; you might have more fight in you than you think ;)
That's actually a common response to me, online and in the real world: "I may not like you but I respect you," usually said grudgingly. I'll take it! :)
as much as I may not always agree with you, I have to admit that I appreciate you.
That's actually a common response to me, online and in the real world: "I may not like you but I respect you," usually said grudgingly. I'll take it! :)
You wouldn't think those traits were as attractive if you had to deal with them in real life, as well as the associated traits that come with them. Imagine having a discussion with someone who...
You wouldn't think those traits were as attractive if you had to deal with them in real life, as well as the associated traits that come with them. Imagine having a discussion with someone who stands firm, won't get angry, but won't back down... ;)
As for whether it's "fight" or not, I always assumed that fighting required some aggressive action - doing something in some way. In the case of the mugger, I didn't attack or counter-attack or take any direct action. I just stood my ground. If a stone wall refuses to budge, is that fighting? You throw rocks and arrows at it, and it just stands there. It doesn't throw anything back at you. It just refuses to open up and let you inside the castle (until you throw a bomb at it, and the wall crumbles). Is that fighting?
I was just trying to make the point that someone who's stubborn when faced with a mugger can also be stubborn in other circumstances. Those examples in my comment cover less than 90 minutes out a...
I was just trying to make the point that someone who's stubborn when faced with a mugger can also be stubborn in other circumstances. Those examples in my comment cover less than 90 minutes out a life that spans more than 250,000,000 minutes. Of course I'm going to lead with my best moments! :)
But I'm also not all bad.
Is saying "no" or "shouting at teenage boys" not doing something in some way? T
I don't believe that standing and saying "no" is fighting. I'm going to go back to my stone wall analogy. A wall isn't fighting when it just stands there and refuses to cooperate.
I'll argue, sure. But is that really the "fight" people talk about when they refer to "fight or flight"? "Fight or flight" usually means "hit or run". I do neither.
Have you ever tried any recreational combatives (sounds like a drug haha)? It sounds like you have “the stuff” and maybe a healthy, supportive outlet would be an interesting venture? I myself...
Have you ever tried any recreational combatives (sounds like a drug haha)? It sounds like you have “the stuff” and maybe a healthy, supportive outlet would be an interesting venture?
I myself would act / have acted similarly as you and feel like I have a skill in deescalating confrontations. But since starting krav Maga I’ve seen myself (and others) learn to “enjoy” “brutal physicality”. Because it’s a self defense context there aren’t the egos that usually turn me off from types of activities, and because it’s supposed to be practical it gets past my “boys being aggressive for pride’s sake is stupid” filter.
Whatever the case, sounds like you have a protective trait. I would categorize “confront/protect” as “fight”. It’s an action to engage into (rather than away from) an opponent. In krav, we are taught not to engage at all costs, but if you have to, you’re 100% driving in.
I abhor violence. Even violence-as-play. The idea of enjoying brutality is contrary to everything I believe in. It's nice that you're having fun pretending to fight other people, but that's...
Have you ever tried any recreational combatives?
I abhor violence. Even violence-as-play. The idea of enjoying brutality is contrary to everything I believe in.
It's nice that you're having fun pretending to fight other people, but that's absolutely not my sort of fun.
This pacifism of mine is baked in deep!
Whatever the case, sounds like you have a protective trait. I would categorize “confront/protect” as “fight”.
I don't see it. To me, there's a difference between punching or hitting (or whatever-ing) someone, and shouting at someone. One is fighting. One is not.
Fight. Generally. Spent 18 years in a home where my dad threw verbal and physical shade. Then 8 more in the armed forces in one guise or another. But weirdly? Stuff doesn't set it off for a...
Fight. Generally.
Spent 18 years in a home where my dad threw verbal and physical shade. Then 8 more in the armed forces in one guise or another.
But weirdly? Stuff doesn't set it off for a physical response. It's like an emotional explosion in my mind that I can either let go of, or disregard entirely in the moment.
Ice in my veins under pressure and all that. It's days after the fact that it gets to me.
Depends how I feel about my actions at the time. I get the emotionally deadening effect of Alexythemia a lot from it. But I can remember vexxed for days after an event, it's like the emotions are...
Depends how I feel about my actions at the time. I get the emotionally deadening effect of Alexythemia a lot from it. But I can remember vexxed for days after an event, it's like the emotions are supressed until they get released through some form of exercise (Or a moshpit, ha)
Well, like everything in life, it depends on the situation. Plus these terms as framed limit responses to interpersonal situations only. Taking a personal example: A gust of wind blowing my son's...
Well, like everything in life, it depends on the situation. Plus these terms as framed limit responses to interpersonal situations only.
Taking a personal example: A gust of wind blowing my son's hat off his head and me quickly lunging for it before it could go off the boardwalk and into a hot spring in Yellowstone. None of those terms clearly capture the reaction to that unexpected situation. The closest might be "fight", in that I was fighting against nature, but again, that is an unfair way to define my reaction.
I think that a better way to discuss this would be to reframe as "Action", "Avoidance", "Inaction", and ... well, I'm having a difficult time finding a good way to generalize "fawn". The only terms I can come up with just seem like subsets of Avoidance and Inaction. Maybe someone with a better grasp of linguistics could help me out.
Ok, but I don't have PTSD and I can relate to these patterns with regard to how I react to conflict or aggression. Either the research exists and I am unaware of it (likely) or we could use more...
Ok, but I don't have PTSD and I can relate to these patterns with regard to how I react to conflict or aggression. Either the research exists and I am unaware of it (likely) or we could use more research about how people of various genders react to aggression or threats day to day.
Yeah the original question needed a frame of reference. The "Four F's" are part of PTSD and fight-or-flight specifically is a threat response. It turns out OP was coming from a trauma context, but...
Yeah the original question needed a frame of reference. The "Four F's" are part of PTSD and fight-or-flight specifically is a threat response. It turns out OP was coming from a trauma context, but that needed clarification.
I think OP meant to ask about changing ingrained "F" responses when the situation isn't actually threatening. Just speculating but they did mention working through trauma in another comment.
The time when I am in the most zen flow state of mind is when there is expanding chaos around me. I run towards car wrecks, I've ran towards gun fire. It's become a joke with my wife now that she...
The time when I am in the most zen flow state of mind is when there is expanding chaos around me. I run towards car wrecks, I've ran towards gun fire. It's become a joke with my wife now that she knows if we're out somewhere and some shit goes down, I'm heading towards it to help. I keep a full trauma bag in my car, my car and my wifes car both have strap cutters and tourniquets...
I spent a bit over 4 years as a infantryman paratrooper, and then became a respiratory therapist, starting my medical career in a very busy burn unit. Doing that, working in hyper critical care for a decade, taught me that I prefer to be dealing with the worst situations rather than the easy ones. Give me someone actively trying to die and let me get to work to try and fix them.
I've also been involved in the 2014 Fort Hood active shooter, which was intense.
I also used to reached advanced cardiac life support classes, and I would start each one by telling the class the most important thing to do when arriving in the room of someone in cardiac arrest is to take a deep breath. That slight pause does wonders to focus the mind and actions, and if that slight pause was the difference in saving them or not, you weren't saving them anyway.
On a much lower level, I have a similar approach. I have first-aid training, and I tend to wander towards accidents, looking to see if I can help. Usually, there's already somebody taking care of...
On a much lower level, I have a similar approach. I have first-aid training, and I tend to wander towards accidents, looking to see if I can help. Usually, there's already somebody taking care of matters, and I'm not needed. But, I'm always looking out for those moments where I might be needed.
It depends upon the situation. When my kids were young, our dog used to sleep with the kids. The dog was probably around 10-15 lbs, my youngest was around 3 and the older about 5. We used to leave...
It depends upon the situation.
When my kids were young, our dog used to sleep with the kids. The dog was probably around 10-15 lbs, my youngest was around 3 and the older about 5. We used to leave our back door open so the dog could go outside when needed. One night I was startled awake by the sound of both kids screaming in terror and the dog growling. Instinctively I jumped out of bed and started throwing on some underwear while thinking my kids were being attacked. I assumed it was an animal since we lived in an area full of coyotes, mountain lions, and bobcats, so I was growling and making noise while bouncing down the hall on one foot trying to get the underwear on. Turns out that the 3 year old was upset the dog left his bed and went into the other room so he went looking. This startled the 5 year old who screamed, which set the dog off who was under the covers, which scared the 3 year old and caused him to start screaming. The 3 of them fell back asleep in minutes, while it took me hours to let the adrenaline run through.
When my wife and I were hanging out with some family in a bar in downtown Albuquerque and someone pulled a gun, my immediate reaction was to pay our tab and usher everyone in our group out as fast as possible.
A teammate of mine was kicked in the back during a soccer game (a purposeful cheap shot). He trained in martial arts and kickboxing so immediately turned around and knocked the other guy on his back. As he stepped over the other guy ready to pummel him, I jumped in between giving my teammate a bear hug and repeated it wasn’t worth hurting the other guy. The guy on the ground tried to get up and act tough, but when I told him I would let go he started apologizing and ran.
I used to be a fighter and learned that day to day a freeze response works better. Freeze. Observe. Think. Quickly. Assess. Then fight, flee, or fawn. The downside is that a freeze response isn't...
I used to be a fighter and learned that day to day a freeze response works better. Freeze. Observe. Think. Quickly. Assess.
Then fight, flee, or fawn.
The downside is that a freeze response isn't cathartic. You sometimes think back and say, "I really wish I told them off. Or i should have quit that job sooner. Or I'd have gotten farther if I just told them what they wanted to hear and got out of there."
Doing those things instinctively works for a lot of people, maybe higher risk, higher reward. But freeze seems to be an effective strategy for my long term success and happiness. I maybe don't act out my impulses as much, but when I go to the fight, people know it's a calculated decision, and I'm in for the kill. When I fawn.... it feels more sincere. And when I flee, I have an exit strategy.
Freeze generally, and it sucks. The only time I've ever been in a physical confrontation after high school was a drunk trying to pick a fight with me and my wife. My instinct was to put myself...
Freeze generally, and it sucks. The only time I've ever been in a physical confrontation after high school was a drunk trying to pick a fight with me and my wife. My instinct was to put myself between him and my wife and get her out of there. Luckily drunks don't punch very well, so extraction successful.
But any social confrontation? Freeze. Don't know why.
Any of the options. It depends. You may call me "analytical and pragmatic". I don't typically respond to traumatic events with immediate emotion. I do experience emotions but they are greatly...
Any of the options. It depends.
You may call me "analytical and pragmatic".
I don't typically respond to traumatic events with immediate emotion. I do experience emotions but they are greatly delayed.
The vast majority of the situations require no reaction from me, the most I will do is to make sure I'm not in the way.
I don't feel implicated or emotionally involved in situations I cannot improve. What good will my psychological suffering produce?
I'd say my response to traumatic events is measured and nonviolent, but I have no issues in changing to a violent response. It's just that a violent response is almost never required, and usually more harmful than simply doing nothing.
In those situations I don't care about what others will think, my only concern is to keep myself and everyone else unharmed.
Flight all the time. I'm pretty sure being a decently fast runner contributes to this, but if something bad happens my natural instinct is just to leg it. Getting in trouble with the police a few...
Flight all the time. I'm pretty sure being a decently fast runner contributes to this, but if something bad happens my natural instinct is just to leg it.
Getting in trouble with the police a few times in the past reinforced this, cause you can't really fight them, can you?
I would say my response depends on the level of danger or time sensitivity. In any escalating or even potentially dangerous situation my first response is fawn. I always feel like it's a proactive...
I would say my response depends on the level of danger or time sensitivity. In any escalating or even potentially dangerous situation my first response is fawn. I always feel like it's a proactive means of defense where I don't feel fully safe. I'm a small, unimposing guy but I also have very little "pride" so taking the lesser position socially has never really bothered me and I feel like it's saved me from a few situations that could have gone much worse/turned violent.
In smaller emergencies I'm always down to be the helpful second pair of hands for whoever takes charge and fully defer to them (fawn). In full on shit hits the fan situations I tend to freeze up first, and then in the case of a physical danger situations- run, or in the case of a major emergency situation where no one else steps up-- fight (by which I mean act/take charge of fixing it).
So like for examples- if a guy is beginning to act aggressive to me I'll immediately back down avoid eye contact, apologize, etc. If he actually does try to attack me I'll probably feeze up for a few seconds while I comprehend what's going on then run. If I'm with a group of people and someone gets seriously injured I'll try and help out whoever takes charge and defer to them. If I'm with say my mom and she accidently cut off the tip of her finger I'll freeze for a second but as I know she doesn't handle these things well I tend to be able to step up and take charge of the situation.
This largely depends on the situation for me. If it's a situation I know how to deal with due to experience or knowledge then I tend to just act. If I have no idea what to do I tend to freeze.
As for when confronted for a fight I haven't experienced that outside of when I was in school. Between my never leaving my house unnecessarily, my large size, and what my wife calls "Resting angry face" I've been lucky to never get into a fight. If only they knew I was a pacifist teddy bear who prefers to cuddles and hugs.
For context, OP is talking specifically about trauma responses to threatening situations - PTSD. Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn are the "four F's" of trauma response.
OP can you clarify - are you asking, if you've been through trauma and now you have these responses in life, can you get better? What's the source of your question?
Straight men usually aren't comfortable with it around anyone.
Makes sense in context, thank you. In twelve step groups, they say recovery is a lifelong process. It's never really over, just something you have to manage, like you said.
I think that's true for severe trauma, especially pre-verbal. I look at it like taking care of a child with special needs. You never know when there's going to be some issue, something upsetting, or some sensitivity, how people will judge you or what will come next. You might just have to drop everything and take care of it. But it's just your responsibility, good or bad, nobody else is going to take care of that child, and you can't leave them behind.
As far as feeling comfortable to talk, even in support groups, it's not always necessarily safe or appropriate to be vulnerable. Having a safe container with strong psychic integrity is really important. I've been with groups (and around individuals) that couldn't safely hold that container.
In conversation between friends, even trusted friends, it's not always ok to just open everything up at any time. Both people have to be ready and feel safe with it. If someone just lets everything out, and the other person just isn't ready, it's not safe for anyone.
To me self-soothing and self care are by far the most important tools for trauma. Validating the pain, listening and apologizing to it - like caring for a small child - can go a very long way. It helps when you can't get what you need from family or friends, from therapy or from other people in the traumatic situation. You can still acknowledge those feelings and still keep supporting the pain. Making it a practice can help.
Well, we live in a traumatized world, and it isn't safe to be vulnerable in public. Karla McLaren talks about that in "The Language of Emotions."
Culturally, I don't think humanity at large is emotionally literate, and definitely not equipped to handle vulnerability in others. It's hard enough to get through your own feelings. I think even professionals are often ill-equipped given all the stories about terrible mental health treatment.
Empathy is a practice and it takes self-ownership and accountability. It benefits everyone, but it's a lot of work. I think most people aren't anywhere near ready.
Edit: being held, yes. Holding your inner child as yourself could help that a lot. It's a practice, and it takes practice, and commitment, and it never ends. There are a lot of ways to self-care or love yourself "out there" but in my view, the one thing that matters most is that personal inner emotional support.
That support is something we need to learn, if it was never modeled for us. We have to start from scratch.
If you're open to it, try holding your pain, as your inner child, embracing it - with a pillow maybe - and just say something like, you're right, I'm sorry, please forgive me (or I forgive you) . Just acknowledgement. Not expecting or needing anything to change.
Of course.
As others have already said, it really does depend on the situation.
I never freeze. Not more than momentarily, while I decide what to do.
Sometimes that decision leads to fawning, where I'll have to calm someone down or placate them or reduce the tension.
Sometimes that decision leads to walking away, which I don't consider fleeing, because it's a deliberate choice to disengage, rather than running away from a threat.
But I don't fight. Not in the way people generally talk about.
I'm a total absolute pacifist. In my adult life, I have never raised a fist in anger - not even when caught off-guard. I've been known to raise an arm to block a possible attack if someone taps me on the shoulder, but the action is a deflection or a parry, rather than a punch. Hell, even if I wanted to fight someone, I wouldn't know how!
But I refuse to back down or walk away.
Two examples that epitomise my approach:
Someone tried to mug me once. It was dark. It was secluded. A man approached me, engaged me, and then surprised me with a roundhouse kick to my stomach. That hurt! He then demanded my wallet and car keys (this was before the time of smartphones). My instant reflexive response was to stand there calmly and say "No". Internally, I was terrified at the thought of the beating I was about to endure; externally, I was calm and unflinching.
It turns out that when you don't respond with either fight or flight, it confuses the fuck out of your assailant! I could see the confusion on his face. If I'd fought back, he would have known what to do: fight harder. And, he would have won, even though he was smaller than me. If I'd run away, he would have known what to do: chase me. And, he would have caught me, because I'm unfit. But, because I did neither of those things, he didn't know what to do next.
He tried to persuade me to give him my wallet and keys! HA! He threatened me, of course. I denied his threat. He did raise his fists, and I flinched slightly, but I stood my ground.
Eventually, he gave up.
More than a decade later, I was in a quiet shopping centre, outside of business hours, to visit the supermarket that was open late. I saw a group of teenagers (all male, aged about 16 to 19) physically harassing a security guard. By the time I saw them, they'd broken his spectacles, and were continuing their harassment.
I walked into the group, pulled myself up to my full height, and shouted at them. Physically, I'm a very average middle-aged man: average height, average build. Not intimidating in any way. However, my voice is not average. I have a voice that can fill a 600-seat theatre. So I stood there, shouting at teenage boys in my best theatre-filling voice, telling them to "stop" and "walk away". And... they did. Not immediately, but they backed down and, one by one, walked away.
That's me.
I've been berated for my friends for walking towards trouble, even in the full knowledge that I can not and will not fight.
So... is that "fight"? It's definitely not flight or freeze or fawn. Maybe we need a fifth option: "face" (as in "confront").
Ya know, as much as I may not always agree with you, I have to admit that I appreciate you.
We only got four choices; you might have more fight in you than you think ;)
That's actually a common response to me, online and in the real world: "I may not like you but I respect you," usually said grudgingly. I'll take it! :)
Hey now, I didn't even say not like, just not always agree. Imagine how boring it would be if everybody always agreed!
You wouldn't think those traits were as attractive if you had to deal with them in real life, as well as the associated traits that come with them. Imagine having a discussion with someone who stands firm, won't get angry, but won't back down... ;)
As for whether it's "fight" or not, I always assumed that fighting required some aggressive action - doing something in some way. In the case of the mugger, I didn't attack or counter-attack or take any direct action. I just stood my ground. If a stone wall refuses to budge, is that fighting? You throw rocks and arrows at it, and it just stands there. It doesn't throw anything back at you. It just refuses to open up and let you inside the castle (until you throw a bomb at it, and the wall crumbles). Is that fighting?
I was just trying to make the point that someone who's stubborn when faced with a mugger can also be stubborn in other circumstances. Those examples in my comment cover less than 90 minutes out a life that spans more than 250,000,000 minutes. Of course I'm going to lead with my best moments! :)
But I'm also not all bad.
I don't believe that standing and saying "no" is fighting. I'm going to go back to my stone wall analogy. A wall isn't fighting when it just stands there and refuses to cooperate.
I'll argue, sure. But is that really the "fight" people talk about when they refer to "fight or flight"? "Fight or flight" usually means "hit or run". I do neither.
Have you ever tried any recreational combatives (sounds like a drug haha)? It sounds like you have “the stuff” and maybe a healthy, supportive outlet would be an interesting venture?
I myself would act / have acted similarly as you and feel like I have a skill in deescalating confrontations. But since starting krav Maga I’ve seen myself (and others) learn to “enjoy” “brutal physicality”. Because it’s a self defense context there aren’t the egos that usually turn me off from types of activities, and because it’s supposed to be practical it gets past my “boys being aggressive for pride’s sake is stupid” filter.
Whatever the case, sounds like you have a protective trait. I would categorize “confront/protect” as “fight”. It’s an action to engage into (rather than away from) an opponent. In krav, we are taught not to engage at all costs, but if you have to, you’re 100% driving in.
I abhor violence. Even violence-as-play. The idea of enjoying brutality is contrary to everything I believe in.
It's nice that you're having fun pretending to fight other people, but that's absolutely not my sort of fun.
This pacifism of mine is baked in deep!
I don't see it. To me, there's a difference between punching or hitting (or whatever-ing) someone, and shouting at someone. One is fighting. One is not.
Fight. Generally.
Spent 18 years in a home where my dad threw verbal and physical shade. Then 8 more in the armed forces in one guise or another.
But weirdly? Stuff doesn't set it off for a physical response. It's like an emotional explosion in my mind that I can either let go of, or disregard entirely in the moment.
Ice in my veins under pressure and all that. It's days after the fact that it gets to me.
I can "get" the days later bit. Does it manifest itself physically?
Depends how I feel about my actions at the time. I get the emotionally deadening effect of Alexythemia a lot from it. But I can remember vexxed for days after an event, it's like the emotions are supressed until they get released through some form of exercise (Or a moshpit, ha)
Well, like everything in life, it depends on the situation. Plus these terms as framed limit responses to interpersonal situations only.
Taking a personal example: A gust of wind blowing my son's hat off his head and me quickly lunging for it before it could go off the boardwalk and into a hot spring in Yellowstone. None of those terms clearly capture the reaction to that unexpected situation. The closest might be "fight", in that I was fighting against nature, but again, that is an unfair way to define my reaction.
I think that a better way to discuss this would be to reframe as "Action", "Avoidance", "Inaction", and ... well, I'm having a difficult time finding a good way to generalize "fawn". The only terms I can come up with just seem like subsets of Avoidance and Inaction. Maybe someone with a better grasp of linguistics could help me out.
Woman here, my understanding of fawn is inherently interpersonal. It is a subservient and placating response meant to defuse aggression imho.
I think a good word for fawn would be "appeasement"
OP is talking specifically about PTSD trauma responses - missing a lot of context here. The question needs more frame of reference to make sense.
OK, I didn't capture that in my readthrough.
Ok, but I don't have PTSD and I can relate to these patterns with regard to how I react to conflict or aggression. Either the research exists and I am unaware of it (likely) or we could use more research about how people of various genders react to aggression or threats day to day.
Yeah the original question needed a frame of reference. The "Four F's" are part of PTSD and fight-or-flight specifically is a threat response. It turns out OP was coming from a trauma context, but that needed clarification.
I think OP meant to ask about changing ingrained "F" responses when the situation isn't actually threatening. Just speculating but they did mention working through trauma in another comment.
The time when I am in the most zen flow state of mind is when there is expanding chaos around me. I run towards car wrecks, I've ran towards gun fire. It's become a joke with my wife now that she knows if we're out somewhere and some shit goes down, I'm heading towards it to help. I keep a full trauma bag in my car, my car and my wifes car both have strap cutters and tourniquets...
I spent a bit over 4 years as a infantryman paratrooper, and then became a respiratory therapist, starting my medical career in a very busy burn unit. Doing that, working in hyper critical care for a decade, taught me that I prefer to be dealing with the worst situations rather than the easy ones. Give me someone actively trying to die and let me get to work to try and fix them.
I've also been involved in the 2014 Fort Hood active shooter, which was intense.
I also used to reached advanced cardiac life support classes, and I would start each one by telling the class the most important thing to do when arriving in the room of someone in cardiac arrest is to take a deep breath. That slight pause does wonders to focus the mind and actions, and if that slight pause was the difference in saving them or not, you weren't saving them anyway.
On a much lower level, I have a similar approach. I have first-aid training, and I tend to wander towards accidents, looking to see if I can help. Usually, there's already somebody taking care of matters, and I'm not needed. But, I'm always looking out for those moments where I might be needed.
It depends upon the situation.
When my kids were young, our dog used to sleep with the kids. The dog was probably around 10-15 lbs, my youngest was around 3 and the older about 5. We used to leave our back door open so the dog could go outside when needed. One night I was startled awake by the sound of both kids screaming in terror and the dog growling. Instinctively I jumped out of bed and started throwing on some underwear while thinking my kids were being attacked. I assumed it was an animal since we lived in an area full of coyotes, mountain lions, and bobcats, so I was growling and making noise while bouncing down the hall on one foot trying to get the underwear on. Turns out that the 3 year old was upset the dog left his bed and went into the other room so he went looking. This startled the 5 year old who screamed, which set the dog off who was under the covers, which scared the 3 year old and caused him to start screaming. The 3 of them fell back asleep in minutes, while it took me hours to let the adrenaline run through.
When my wife and I were hanging out with some family in a bar in downtown Albuquerque and someone pulled a gun, my immediate reaction was to pay our tab and usher everyone in our group out as fast as possible.
A teammate of mine was kicked in the back during a soccer game (a purposeful cheap shot). He trained in martial arts and kickboxing so immediately turned around and knocked the other guy on his back. As he stepped over the other guy ready to pummel him, I jumped in between giving my teammate a bear hug and repeated it wasn’t worth hurting the other guy. The guy on the ground tried to get up and act tough, but when I told him I would let go he started apologizing and ran.
I used to be a fighter and learned that day to day a freeze response works better. Freeze. Observe. Think. Quickly. Assess.
Then fight, flee, or fawn.
The downside is that a freeze response isn't cathartic. You sometimes think back and say, "I really wish I told them off. Or i should have quit that job sooner. Or I'd have gotten farther if I just told them what they wanted to hear and got out of there."
Doing those things instinctively works for a lot of people, maybe higher risk, higher reward. But freeze seems to be an effective strategy for my long term success and happiness. I maybe don't act out my impulses as much, but when I go to the fight, people know it's a calculated decision, and I'm in for the kill. When I fawn.... it feels more sincere. And when I flee, I have an exit strategy.
Freeze generally, and it sucks. The only time I've ever been in a physical confrontation after high school was a drunk trying to pick a fight with me and my wife. My instinct was to put myself between him and my wife and get her out of there. Luckily drunks don't punch very well, so extraction successful.
But any social confrontation? Freeze. Don't know why.
Any of the options. It depends.
You may call me "analytical and pragmatic".
I don't typically respond to traumatic events with immediate emotion. I do experience emotions but they are greatly delayed.
The vast majority of the situations require no reaction from me, the most I will do is to make sure I'm not in the way.
Only once I had to employ violence, when I tackled a man to the ground and protected him from the strikes of their aggressor. On another situation, I calmly deescalated an agressor and convinced him to go home.
I don't feel implicated or emotionally involved in situations I cannot improve. What good will my psychological suffering produce?
I'd say my response to traumatic events is measured and nonviolent, but I have no issues in changing to a violent response. It's just that a violent response is almost never required, and usually more harmful than simply doing nothing.
In those situations I don't care about what others will think, my only concern is to keep myself and everyone else unharmed.
Flight all the time. I'm pretty sure being a decently fast runner contributes to this, but if something bad happens my natural instinct is just to leg it.
Getting in trouble with the police a few times in the past reinforced this, cause you can't really fight them, can you?
I would say my response depends on the level of danger or time sensitivity. In any escalating or even potentially dangerous situation my first response is fawn. I always feel like it's a proactive means of defense where I don't feel fully safe. I'm a small, unimposing guy but I also have very little "pride" so taking the lesser position socially has never really bothered me and I feel like it's saved me from a few situations that could have gone much worse/turned violent.
In smaller emergencies I'm always down to be the helpful second pair of hands for whoever takes charge and fully defer to them (fawn). In full on shit hits the fan situations I tend to freeze up first, and then in the case of a physical danger situations- run, or in the case of a major emergency situation where no one else steps up-- fight (by which I mean act/take charge of fixing it).
So like for examples- if a guy is beginning to act aggressive to me I'll immediately back down avoid eye contact, apologize, etc. If he actually does try to attack me I'll probably feeze up for a few seconds while I comprehend what's going on then run. If I'm with a group of people and someone gets seriously injured I'll try and help out whoever takes charge and defer to them. If I'm with say my mom and she accidently cut off the tip of her finger I'll freeze for a second but as I know she doesn't handle these things well I tend to be able to step up and take charge of the situation.