Very well said. To be honest, it’s very brave of you to write this all down. When I saw this post’s title, I was scared that you’ll be “downvoted” to oblivion for such a “controversial” stance. I...
Exemplary
Very well said. To be honest, it’s very brave of you to write this all down. When I saw this post’s title, I was scared that you’ll be “downvoted” to oblivion for such a “controversial” stance. I then remembered we were in tildes and not in reddit and I’m happy I’m hanging out here more.
You expressed a sentiment I had for a long time eloquently and I am happy how you managed to bring up your points and at the same time clarifying that it is not an either-or situation. Every parent deserves to be recognized for their contributions and their sacrifices.
I am a father of four. The first two were first marriage. Then I divorced and wouldn't settle for anything less than an actual 50/50 split for time. My new partner came along and I adopted her 2...
I am a father of four. The first two were first marriage. Then I divorced and wouldn't settle for anything less than an actual 50/50 split for time. My new partner came along and I adopted her 2 year old son as his biological father is useless and totally absent, he couldn't wait to not have to pay maintenance. Then, after a reverse vasectomy and many years of trying, I ended up with a new-born.
With the first three kids I pushed myself to provide the only real way I knew how, work my arse off and bring in a decent I come, so weekends and holidays were great!
The pandemic hit for the forth dude and I've been remote working since, I haven't missed a smile. I forever present, up in the night and every doctor appointment, I don't miss a thing.
Parents are equal parts and make the parental unit. Many men choose to spend as much time out of it as possible. My bro in law is one, he never changed a nappy on all three of his kids, my sister did the lot. I know of some women that should never have been a mum and all you hear is screeching and screaming because they just do not cope well with it.
Hopefully people's mindsets are changing as men aren't seen as neanderthal "Ugg, me get food!" so much any longer. It doesn't help on the society/culture and religion either as many highlight the woman as the child's main carer while the men provide or just create more babies.
Congrats on the kiddo and being a parent! Hopefully we're seen as good dad's.
Wishing you the best in this difficult time. When I was a kid, television still showed nervous fathers to be passing out cigars to their friends after their wives had given birth alone or with...
Wishing you the best in this difficult time.
When I was a kid, television still showed nervous fathers to be passing out cigars to their friends after their wives had given birth alone or with their mother present. Men were not considered welcome in the delivery process. Reddit taught me that that norm had changed.
I appreciate the hard work you are putting in to support your wife and actively care for your child.
People are dumb and old fashioned. You sound like an amazing dad and you shouldn’t need to bring this up, but this is the state society is in. High five from another dad, sounds like you are doing...
People are dumb and old fashioned. You sound like an amazing dad and you shouldn’t need to bring this up, but this is the state society is in. High five from another dad, sounds like you are doing great!
Don’t let what outsiders say get you down! I hope your wife notices all your hard work and I hope you’re noticing it the other way around. Praise each other, because those first months can be extremely hard to deal with emotionally. Shit is hard and the last thing you want to feel is being under appreciated. Now go and take a quick nap before next shift!
I just want to add that although only mothers can breastfeed, I had difficulty getting a latch and so my husband equally fed our child pumped milk using our thumbs with a small tube attached as...
I just want to add that although only mothers can breastfeed, I had difficulty getting a latch and so my husband equally fed our child pumped milk using our thumbs with a small tube attached as our midwife suggested. And after a few visits from our midwife, it was my husband who first got our child to latch to my breast, not me. <3
He also took the first couple of years off of work to be with our child and he had to endure the confusion of people thinking it was odd for him to want to spend time with his child. For example, one of his male coworkers had the opposite view and said that he purposely worked overtime as being at work was a vacation from being at home dealing with a crying baby.
This was all over a decade ago and I am thankful that gender norms are changing (e.g., we have parental leave and not just maternity leave now), but of course we have a long way to go. I appreciate you sharing your experiences and perspective.
Your post and the description of the things you did to take care of your newborn seem like things that a mother does, that fathers can also do. With the title of throwing fathers a bone, I sort of...
Your post and the description of the things you did to take care of your newborn seem like things that a mother does, that fathers can also do.
With the title of throwing fathers a bone, I sort of thought this would have been about uniquely fatherly things that are also important.
Maybe there's three camps of things when it comes to raising children:
Things a parent can do
Things only a mother can do
Things only a father can do
Some thoughts on this situation:
I think those things change depending on if the child is a little boy or a little girl, and the impacts paternal and maternal figure have is definitely different for each.
Probably most of the content made about raising children is by women, to be consumed by women, so naturally the role of mothers is celebrated.
If I google "motherhood magazine" I get 117 million hits on google, if I google "fatherhood magazines" I get 3 million hits. So clearly there's just LESS of that message being written and getting out.
I'm not saying any particular role is more important or needed than the other here.
Also lovely post BTW Don't ever feel like critique to posts means they should be taken down. Here on TILDES I like to hope we have a slightly more evolved exchange than that.
The OP has requested the thread be closed or deleted, so I somewhat reluctantly write this reply, but I find this line of thinking unhelpful. In your opinion what is it that only fathers can do?...
The OP has requested the thread be closed or deleted, so I somewhat reluctantly write this reply, but I find this line of thinking unhelpful.
Maybe there's three camps of things when it comes to raising children:
Things a parent can do
Things only a mother can do
Things only a father can do
In your opinion what is it that only fathers can do? What is it that only mothers can do? To assert that such a thing exists, to me anyway, suggests that children being raised by single parents or by same sex parents are missing out on some essential aspect of parenthood. I believe this is unequivocally untrue. It is of course important for children of all genders to have healthy role models of all genders in their life, but these need not be, and indeed sometimes should not be parents.
Other than basic biological functions (children need their mother's breast milk for example), I can't think of any things that only one parent should do for their child, as opposed to simply both (or just the one in the case of single parents) taking on different roles depending on each child's need, regardless of gender. Given this, without delving into archaic gender stereotypes, I'm interested to hear some examples of what tasks you think should only be done by a father (or a mother).
I can't think of a re-worked title off the top of my head, and wouldn't like to put words in your mouth. If you have a replacement, I can copy and paste it in for you.
I can't think of a re-worked title off the top of my head, and wouldn't like to put words in your mouth. If you have a replacement, I can copy and paste it in for you.
I think she was correct though and, most importantly, that does not in any way detract from a father's role or the level of care or love that a man can provide. My mother was essentially...
A decade ago, I was at a party. At that party, a discussion took place. A woman was talking about how the connection a mother has with her baby is incomparable, like any other, to a degree that men could never replace or understand. She talked in very romantic, essentialist terms. There was, according to her, something profound and essential about motherhood that men could not share.
I think she was correct though and, most importantly, that does not in any way detract from a father's role or the level of care or love that a man can provide. My mother was essentially emotionally abusive, not someone I would dare call a good parent, but I'd still be willing to bet that her connection with me was not at the same level as that of my father.
I was speaking with my partner about this subject a couple of months ago, he's a Psychiatrist and so able to comment from a place of education and experience. I was saying how extreme mothers can be in hyper focusing on their childrens' lives, completely losing all sense of self and seeing no other real priority over the children to the detriment of their marriage or self. Obviously that doesn't always happen but I have seen it more than once. He responded that a lot of mothers will see their baby at some subconscious level as an extension of themselves, essentially inseperable from their being and I think that he might be right. This doesn't mean that makes the women better care givers or that men cannot provide the same for lack of this connection but I do think that evolutionarily, mothers do have an incomparable and essential connection to their baby that fathers never have.
Hi lou, I agree with your root message but I dislike the framing you put around these issues. The view you present these realizations or problems is compared to women’s at several places in your...
Hi lou,
I agree with your root message but I dislike the framing you put around these issues. The view you present these realizations or problems is compared to women’s at several places in your text and I think that merits some criticism. Your message gains nothing with the framing you’ve given it. The title could very well be “Good fathers in society don’t get enough credit” for instance.
It’s counter productive to take this oppositional approach when talking about systems of oppression. People will normally respond by bringing up the other side of your argument because it appears to not have been taken into account properly: the absurd demands on mothers, how low the bar for fathers is in most cultures, 75% of single families are lead by women, domestic tasks are not shared equally between parents. Parental leave is defaulted to women and so on and so forth. Evidence of systemic sexism plagues these issues. And only speaking of the consequences you face invalidates a lot of the real discourse you’re holding because when you take the whole thing into account, you understand that some of the resistance you encounter is due to mothers and women clinging to the one thing they are told they’re good for. What else does society allow with the same ease? Everything else is male-defaulted.
There’s always sex work, but y’know. You’re either a mother of a whore ;-)
It is uncharitable to discuss it within that frame. That being said, I understand exactly where you’re coming from and it is a regrettable consequence of a patriarcal society which doesn’t allow for men to be anything else than stereotypically male, ideally white cis, hetero, but we’ll take male above anything else.
Under patriarchy, I think you’re allowed like two emotions… anger and neutral. Where does love and tenderness fit that narrative? How are you expected to combine the demands of fatherhood with the role society forces upon you?
It’s normal to be struggling in this reality. The whole thing is fucked (pardon my french). But it’s a slippery slope from comparing our wounds to blaming the wrong people for it.
I wish you the very best, and you are an amazing, courageous and brave daddy. Keep on being that!
Hmm… maybe you’re right that some sections of my post were uncharitable as well. I’ll leave it because I will own up to my mistakes. The essence of what I meant is that your point stood without...
Hmm… maybe you’re right that some sections of my post were uncharitable as well. I’ll leave it because I will own up to my mistakes.
The essence of what I meant is that your point stood without bringing up the other side to make the point. I thought it was not useful and invited the oppositional response. I was giving a part of an oppositional response to illustrate that, but that was probably too much in retrospect. My own point stood without that and I am, 20 minutes later, a bit of a hypocrite in my critique.
I’m not making assumptions though I get how this looks now. How words fail me sometimes…
What does gender have to do with this part of our conversation? My whole point was that your trauma is justified, and stands alone without anything else to prop it up. That it didn’t need...
What does gender have to do with this part of our conversation?
My whole point was that your trauma is justified, and stands alone without anything else to prop it up. That it didn’t need oppositional framing to be valid.
Still, i regret that we are speaking at cross purpose now, and it reminds me of why I so seldom participate in online forums. There appears to be nothing I can write that will be as good as the words I can speak.
I beg you to not delete this thread instead. Maybe there is a way to put it in "silence" mode? I totally understand your response and the tiredness because I experience that as well and are in the...
I beg you to not delete this thread instead. Maybe there is a way to put it in "silence" mode?
I totally understand your response and the tiredness because I experience that as well and are in the middle of a toxic relationship that I am enduring only because I cannot "take away" the child and don't want to just leave free reins to my partner.
It's tiring because no one I would try and complain, would understand the struggle of trying to be a good father despite the society seeing you as a bad one by default.
Every good thing you do is not seen and every little slip is seen under a magnifying glass it seems.
BUT, tildes is publicly readable, and having these sort of open letters searchable and indexed online, will help others understand that they are not alone, even if this doesn't solve this problem, it would help someone feel less alone in a similar situation.
I want to start by saying I was really glad that you posted this here, I found it to be beautiful and as another man parts of it were difficult to read - I can feel your hurt in it. That said I...
I want to start by saying I was really glad that you posted this here, I found it to be beautiful and as another man parts of it were difficult to read - I can feel your hurt in it. That said I have to lend some support to Charminabottle, the way that you wrote this beautiful piece does invite comments from the woman's perspective as well as debate about gender. That isn't necesarily a bad thing though, especially because men's voices are so rarely heard about issues such as this, but it is to be expected when you depart from writing about your experience to making a juxtaposition with what a woman goes through in the same situation.
Your reactions here seem really out of proportion. Keep in mind that you've posted this piece to a website ostensibly about sharing things for comment driven discussions, it's unfair to think that people will not comment on or try to debate what you've said. You're very obviously operating out of a place of hurt right now and while it's probably healthy for you to get these words out, Tildes might not be the place for it. That or you maybe take a break from the site and only come back to read the comments at a later date.
In any case, you sound like a great father and that you're doing your part in all of this. It's really hard to suffer alone but sometimes there are situations in life where that's our lot, to play the supporting role while someone else (your wife) gets to shine. I am sincerely hoping though that you do find someone who can help shoulder your pain right now and give you the praise you probably deserve
Very well said. To be honest, it’s very brave of you to write this all down. When I saw this post’s title, I was scared that you’ll be “downvoted” to oblivion for such a “controversial” stance. I then remembered we were in tildes and not in reddit and I’m happy I’m hanging out here more.
You expressed a sentiment I had for a long time eloquently and I am happy how you managed to bring up your points and at the same time clarifying that it is not an either-or situation. Every parent deserves to be recognized for their contributions and their sacrifices.
I am a father of four. The first two were first marriage. Then I divorced and wouldn't settle for anything less than an actual 50/50 split for time. My new partner came along and I adopted her 2 year old son as his biological father is useless and totally absent, he couldn't wait to not have to pay maintenance. Then, after a reverse vasectomy and many years of trying, I ended up with a new-born.
With the first three kids I pushed myself to provide the only real way I knew how, work my arse off and bring in a decent I come, so weekends and holidays were great!
The pandemic hit for the forth dude and I've been remote working since, I haven't missed a smile. I forever present, up in the night and every doctor appointment, I don't miss a thing.
Parents are equal parts and make the parental unit. Many men choose to spend as much time out of it as possible. My bro in law is one, he never changed a nappy on all three of his kids, my sister did the lot. I know of some women that should never have been a mum and all you hear is screeching and screaming because they just do not cope well with it.
Hopefully people's mindsets are changing as men aren't seen as neanderthal "Ugg, me get food!" so much any longer. It doesn't help on the society/culture and religion either as many highlight the woman as the child's main carer while the men provide or just create more babies.
Congrats on the kiddo and being a parent! Hopefully we're seen as good dad's.
Wishing you the best in this difficult time.
When I was a kid, television still showed nervous fathers to be passing out cigars to their friends after their wives had given birth alone or with their mother present. Men were not considered welcome in the delivery process. Reddit taught me that that norm had changed.
I appreciate the hard work you are putting in to support your wife and actively care for your child.
People are dumb and old fashioned. You sound like an amazing dad and you shouldn’t need to bring this up, but this is the state society is in. High five from another dad, sounds like you are doing great!
Don’t let what outsiders say get you down! I hope your wife notices all your hard work and I hope you’re noticing it the other way around. Praise each other, because those first months can be extremely hard to deal with emotionally. Shit is hard and the last thing you want to feel is being under appreciated. Now go and take a quick nap before next shift!
I just want to add that although only mothers can breastfeed, I had difficulty getting a latch and so my husband equally fed our child pumped milk using our thumbs with a small tube attached as our midwife suggested. And after a few visits from our midwife, it was my husband who first got our child to latch to my breast, not me. <3
He also took the first couple of years off of work to be with our child and he had to endure the confusion of people thinking it was odd for him to want to spend time with his child. For example, one of his male coworkers had the opposite view and said that he purposely worked overtime as being at work was a vacation from being at home dealing with a crying baby.
This was all over a decade ago and I am thankful that gender norms are changing (e.g., we have parental leave and not just maternity leave now), but of course we have a long way to go. I appreciate you sharing your experiences and perspective.
Your post and the description of the things you did to take care of your newborn seem like things that a mother does, that fathers can also do.
With the title of throwing fathers a bone, I sort of thought this would have been about uniquely fatherly things that are also important.
Maybe there's three camps of things when it comes to raising children:
Things a parent can do
Things only a mother can do
Things only a father can do
Some thoughts on this situation:
I think those things change depending on if the child is a little boy or a little girl, and the impacts paternal and maternal figure have is definitely different for each.
Probably most of the content made about raising children is by women, to be consumed by women, so naturally the role of mothers is celebrated.
If I google "motherhood magazine" I get 117 million hits on google, if I google "fatherhood magazines" I get 3 million hits. So clearly there's just LESS of that message being written and getting out.
I'm not saying any particular role is more important or needed than the other here.
Also lovely post BTW Don't ever feel like critique to posts means they should be taken down. Here on TILDES I like to hope we have a slightly more evolved exchange than that.
The OP has requested the thread be closed or deleted, so I somewhat reluctantly write this reply, but I find this line of thinking unhelpful.
In your opinion what is it that only fathers can do? What is it that only mothers can do? To assert that such a thing exists, to me anyway, suggests that children being raised by single parents or by same sex parents are missing out on some essential aspect of parenthood. I believe this is unequivocally untrue. It is of course important for children of all genders to have healthy role models of all genders in their life, but these need not be, and indeed sometimes should not be parents.
Other than basic biological functions (children need their mother's breast milk for example), I can't think of any things that only one parent should do for their child, as opposed to simply both (or just the one in the case of single parents) taking on different roles depending on each child's need, regardless of gender. Given this, without delving into archaic gender stereotypes, I'm interested to hear some examples of what tasks you think should only be done by a father (or a mother).
I can't think of a re-worked title off the top of my head, and wouldn't like to put words in your mouth. If you have a replacement, I can copy and paste it in for you.
Consider it pasted in. 👍
I think she was correct though and, most importantly, that does not in any way detract from a father's role or the level of care or love that a man can provide. My mother was essentially emotionally abusive, not someone I would dare call a good parent, but I'd still be willing to bet that her connection with me was not at the same level as that of my father.
I was speaking with my partner about this subject a couple of months ago, he's a Psychiatrist and so able to comment from a place of education and experience. I was saying how extreme mothers can be in hyper focusing on their childrens' lives, completely losing all sense of self and seeing no other real priority over the children to the detriment of their marriage or self. Obviously that doesn't always happen but I have seen it more than once. He responded that a lot of mothers will see their baby at some subconscious level as an extension of themselves, essentially inseperable from their being and I think that he might be right. This doesn't mean that makes the women better care givers or that men cannot provide the same for lack of this connection but I do think that evolutionarily, mothers do have an incomparable and essential connection to their baby that fathers never have.
Hi lou,
I agree with your root message but I dislike the framing you put around these issues. The view you present these realizations or problems is compared to women’s at several places in your text and I think that merits some criticism. Your message gains nothing with the framing you’ve given it. The title could very well be “Good fathers in society don’t get enough credit” for instance.
It’s counter productive to take this oppositional approach when talking about systems of oppression. People will normally respond by bringing up the other side of your argument because it appears to not have been taken into account properly: the absurd demands on mothers, how low the bar for fathers is in most cultures, 75% of single families are lead by women, domestic tasks are not shared equally between parents. Parental leave is defaulted to women and so on and so forth. Evidence of systemic sexism plagues these issues. And only speaking of the consequences you face invalidates a lot of the real discourse you’re holding because when you take the whole thing into account, you understand that some of the resistance you encounter is due to mothers and women clinging to the one thing they are told they’re good for. What else does society allow with the same ease? Everything else is male-defaulted.
There’s always sex work, but y’know. You’re either a mother of a whore ;-)
It is uncharitable to discuss it within that frame. That being said, I understand exactly where you’re coming from and it is a regrettable consequence of a patriarcal society which doesn’t allow for men to be anything else than stereotypically male, ideally white cis, hetero, but we’ll take male above anything else.
Under patriarchy, I think you’re allowed like two emotions… anger and neutral. Where does love and tenderness fit that narrative? How are you expected to combine the demands of fatherhood with the role society forces upon you?
It’s normal to be struggling in this reality. The whole thing is fucked (pardon my french). But it’s a slippery slope from comparing our wounds to blaming the wrong people for it.
I wish you the very best, and you are an amazing, courageous and brave daddy. Keep on being that!
Good on you for calling this out. Please don't take down the post.
Hmm… maybe you’re right that some sections of my post were uncharitable as well. I’ll leave it because I will own up to my mistakes.
The essence of what I meant is that your point stood without bringing up the other side to make the point. I thought it was not useful and invited the oppositional response. I was giving a part of an oppositional response to illustrate that, but that was probably too much in retrospect. My own point stood without that and I am, 20 minutes later, a bit of a hypocrite in my critique.
I’m not making assumptions though I get how this looks now. How words fail me sometimes…
What does gender have to do with this part of our conversation?
My whole point was that your trauma is justified, and stands alone without anything else to prop it up. That it didn’t need oppositional framing to be valid.
Still, i regret that we are speaking at cross purpose now, and it reminds me of why I so seldom participate in online forums. There appears to be nothing I can write that will be as good as the words I can speak.
I beg you to not delete this thread instead. Maybe there is a way to put it in "silence" mode?
I totally understand your response and the tiredness because I experience that as well and are in the middle of a toxic relationship that I am enduring only because I cannot "take away" the child and don't want to just leave free reins to my partner.
It's tiring because no one I would try and complain, would understand the struggle of trying to be a good father despite the society seeing you as a bad one by default.
Every good thing you do is not seen and every little slip is seen under a magnifying glass it seems.
BUT, tildes is publicly readable, and having these sort of open letters searchable and indexed online, will help others understand that they are not alone, even if this doesn't solve this problem, it would help someone feel less alone in a similar situation.
I want to start by saying I was really glad that you posted this here, I found it to be beautiful and as another man parts of it were difficult to read - I can feel your hurt in it. That said I have to lend some support to Charminabottle, the way that you wrote this beautiful piece does invite comments from the woman's perspective as well as debate about gender. That isn't necesarily a bad thing though, especially because men's voices are so rarely heard about issues such as this, but it is to be expected when you depart from writing about your experience to making a juxtaposition with what a woman goes through in the same situation.
Your reactions here seem really out of proportion. Keep in mind that you've posted this piece to a website ostensibly about sharing things for comment driven discussions, it's unfair to think that people will not comment on or try to debate what you've said. You're very obviously operating out of a place of hurt right now and while it's probably healthy for you to get these words out, Tildes might not be the place for it. That or you maybe take a break from the site and only come back to read the comments at a later date.
In any case, you sound like a great father and that you're doing your part in all of this. It's really hard to suffer alone but sometimes there are situations in life where that's our lot, to play the supporting role while someone else (your wife) gets to shine. I am sincerely hoping though that you do find someone who can help shoulder your pain right now and give you the praise you probably deserve