What are your thoughts on how a vet should interact with a dog?
I'm curious about people's thoughts/opinions on how a vet (or someone offering a pet service) should interact with a dog. It seems as though people have wide ranging and shifting opinions about how dogs should be interacted with and how they interpret the dog's behavior. Some people are extremely sensitive about their dog's mental well being. They do acupuncture and meditation exercises with their dog, speak about the dog's mental health and choose vets that take a very non-threatening and holistic approach to dealing with dogs.
On the flip side is the vet that, although kind and somewhat sensitive, takes a more treatment focused approach and are more direct (the "gentle but firm" approach). Although the dog may be nervous and scared, IME that's pretty common for many dogs. This more direct vet would acknowledge the nervousness but still do what they need to do, often saying "I know you don't like this buddy, but we've gotta do this".
I'm curious what people's thoughts are on this. I'm asking about this because I had an experience at a vet that took a more sensitive approach. And while I appreciate that, my dog was sick and needed treatment. Because of this sensitive technique, the vet didn't examine my dog. He did the "let the dog come to me" approach, which, heh, doesn't really work when you have a sick dog that needs a diagnosis and treatment. You kinda HAVE to put your hands on the dog, feel their vitals, chest, check for lumps, etc. The vet also did the "don't make eye contact" approach, which, heh, means you also aren't looking at my dog to see what their issue looks like. Basically the vet crouched down in the corner of the room, didn't look at my dog and didn't touch her. Because I'm very cuddly with dogs, my dog took his behavior as being uninterested and ignored him. When the vet pointed to her ears and said they were laying down because she felt threatened, I corrected him and said her ears were down because she was being submissive (she was calm, sitting with her ears relaxed, not flattened down against her head). I was getting frustrated because I just wanted my dog examined and treated. I'm fine with my dog being uncomfortable during a wellness exam because that's just the way it goes, even for humans! I do want a vet to be somewhat sensitive but firmness and directness can be done sensitively. Idk if it's because I'm older and have an older mentality about this. I grew up watching vets kinda manhandle dogs and saying "they're dogs, they're fine, don't worry so much". I don't treat dogs like hunting dogs (that's just too harsh imo) but I acknowledge that dogs are tougher than we think sometimes.
What are your thoughts and/or opinions on this?
(This is my first post, so please do add tags or tell me if I've missed anything. Thanks!)
My dad is a vet, and I grew up working in his clinic. He has been practicing over 40 years now, so he's definitely "old school". To put more meat on that bone (hah), I mean: physically restraining a dog or cat as needed to do routine things like blood draws, injections, fecals, etc. If an animal was extremely hard to handle we might use a muzzle. In really rare cases, we would sedate the animal, but this is usually only if there was no other option. Sometimes the owners would get upset, but my general sense was that they understood why we were doing what we were doing. Sometimes my dad would offer to keep the dog for the day and have them pick it up later. For regular patients (this was most of the practice), we'd know ahead of time what to expect with animal and prepare ourselves and the client accordingly.
One interesting story: my dad had a younger associate who did a lot of things to help modernize his clinic, including upgrading his X-ray machine and getting an automatic developer. This made it much easier and safer to use X-ray's for diagnostics, but it wasn't really his way. He did an exam on a pregnant dog, palpating the abdomen, and saying, "your dog has four puppies". At the next checkup, the other doctor took an X-ray and said, "oh, Dr. MyDad was wrong, there are just three puppies." Come delivery time -- four puppies. So my Dad's old school hands beat the X-ray machine. This is actually one of the reasons why I decided not to become a veterinarian -- I knew I might be a good clinician, but I was never going to have the connection with animals that he does.
I don't really have a point of reference for the "new school" as we don't have pets now, but growing up, I never felt like the animals were being mistreated. It's definitely giving the animals less agency, but it was never for the sake of manhandling or cowing the animal, just to make sure they were healthy and stayed that way.
One of the things that I think illustrates that his methods were centered in care for the animal: it was somewhat common for someone to want to put an otherwise healthy animal to sleep if it had fixable problem that was going to require an expensive surgery or complicated aftercare. My dad would just say, "I'll take care of it. No charge." and send the people home, then do the surgery anyway and re-home the animal. I never saw him put an animal's well-being ahead of his bottom line.
Thank you for the reply. I think you've made a great point about being a good clinician. I think maybe that's a distinction I've made subconsciously but not realized it, that some vets I've encountered may be good clinicians but can't seem to connect with pets. I miss the old vet I had years ago who just gave off a vibe. Dogs that seemed timid or scared would instantly be relaxed in his presence. The closest example I have is Dr. Pol. To my eye, he just has a certain take-charge vibe that isn't scary. He will do what needs to be done, even when it may seem unpleasant. And always for the benefit of the animal.
Your dad taking care of the animal even when the owner was giving up on it reminds me of a customer my family had one time. We had just sold a siamese kitten to someone who wanted a travel buddy since he was a trucker. The kitten ended up underweight and sick (probably from stress of being in a truck the entire time, but idk) and so the guy opted to put down the 14 week old kitten instead of paying for his treatment. Idk why, because he paid $300 for the kitten, so we thought he'd be a decent owner. But thankfully the vet said to just let her have it and to give her my family's info, and she called us to return the kitten once the treatment was done. Didn't charge us or the trucker. The trucker did end up getting his money back, but that was my mom's way of preventing him from getting another kitten of ours. He clearly wasn't someone trustworthy of owning a pet.
And yes, the kitten did end up getting a family who loves him :)
This is such a great question, and one which gets right at the heart of our dogs' experiences with veterinarians. We have two dogs, both of which were adopted as puppies (8 weeks) from the humane society. Both are mixed breeds with no evidence of trauma or abuse in their past. Our first dog, a female pit/lab/who knows what mix, is the sweetest, most trusting dog. We took her to the local vet (2 minute walk) and didn't think anything of it. I'm guessing that this vet would fall into the "old school" category, based on above descriptions. We would drop her off, the vet would do the things (this was during COVID, so we couldn't go inside), and we would pick her up. Now, she was never happy about it (fear/anxiety expressions when we dropped her off), but she never evidenced aggression. In fact, the vet would often laugh that she would stand like a statue throughout the whole process. He was definitely aware that she wasn't happy, but hey, who likes to go to the doctor? We heard different stories from neighbors whose dogs loved going to the vet, but that was never our experience. Did it have to do with this vet's approach? Maybe? Was he harmful or abusive to the dogs? Definitely not.
Introduce dog number two. This little guy (who ended up being way bigger than we thought he was going to be) is supposedly a husky/mini pinscher mix (the logistics of that breeding will make your brain hurt). He quickly bonded with big sis, and up until about 5 months was a pretty much normal dog. He went through the same positive reinforcement training as his sister, and proved to be a smart and lovable dog, even if a little more anxious around other dogs. At right around 5 months, something changed. He started showing significant signs of reactivity towards both dogs and humans, and the way that we discovered this was through a "failed" vet visit. He had already been to this same "old school" vet once for his initial checkup/round of vaccines, and he was coming back for round 2. About 5 minutes after I dropped him off (a year later they still weren't letting people into the building), I got a call from the vet office asking if he had ever shown signs of aggression. Yes, we had noticed some anxiety, but never any aggressive behavior (lunging/biting/etc.), and I told the vet office this this. Okay, no problem, we'll just let him calm down and try again. 20 minutes after that I got a call directly from the veterinarian. They have to cancel the visit. He won't let anyone come near him, and has already tried to bite the vet (who was wearing anti-bite gloves, so no harm done). I drive back to the clinic expecting to pick up a mindless monster, and instead I picked up a very stressed and very scared puppy. To be clear, I don't think the vet or anyone at the office tried to hurt or abuse him. In fact, I'm guessing that he was handled the same way that every other single dog that comes through that clinic is handled - no nonsense, get it done quick and get it over with. It simply just doesn't work for this dog.
In the end, and after a lot of debate about spending a ridiculous amount of money on a pet behavioralist (which are amazing but very expensive), we decided to try a different vet. A coworker of my partner's told her about the vet that they take their dogs to which is "fear free." I am naturally suspicious of anything with "branding," but we didn't have anything to lose. What we encountered is what has already been described in this thread as "new school." Before we could set up an actual appointment with the vet herself, we took our reactive dog to "desensitization visits" where a vet tech would just throw cheese at him for 20 minutes. After the 3rd or 4th visit (which cost money but were still significantly less than even the intro meeting for the behavioralist) he let the vet tech get close enough to pet him. All of the staff were trained in the ways previously described (averting the gaze, non-threatening movement and postures, etc.). Despite all of these efforts, he still had to be sedated for his actual visit with the veterinarian so that she could do a full examination along with vaccines and a blood draw. We also had them trim his nails.
The end result? Both of our dogs like going to the vet. They're still both nervous, but the older female willingly enters the office, sits on the scale, and lets the vet examine her. Granted, when they have to draw blood or give her a shot, she assumes the "statue" posture, but immediately gives kisses to the person treating her. The younger male will probably have to continue to be sedated for actual appointments, but absolutely adores going to the clinic, because he knows that it means that people will stuff cheese in his face. I should add that, in addition to changing vets, we have also spent a lot of time and energy on reactivity training. It has been painstakingly slow with numerous setbacks (darn you adolescence!), but we are seeing significant results in his behavior and reactivity. Taking him to "desensitization visits" is a double win of introducing him to the staff of the clinic while also getting cheap (not free) reactivity training with new people.
Knowing that we can have medical care done to our dogs without traumatizing them or putting the staff at risk is a huge thing for us. Do we get impatient with them sometimes? Oh absolutely! Especially with the non-reactive female, there have been several times where I've had to say to the tech "okay, I'm just going to hold her and you come give her the shot," because they'd been waiting for my dog to not look anxious (you try not looking anxious when someone starts waving a syringe around). Spending $30 and driving 20 minutes just to have someone throw cheese at your dog definitely feels a little bit crazy as well. That being said, for all of these faults, there is no way we would go back to our "old school vet." It is not a critique of that method (honestly, if we hadn't gotten the second dog, we'd still be going to that same vet). However, for reactive dogs like ours the "new school" method is the only option.
I wish I could get a doctor to do this for me.
This specific clinic is a "fear free" (which I guess is some kind of certification) clinic. I would imagine that other clinics that advertise "fear free " would do the same thing. We live in a major west coast city, so our choices are more numerous, and the general attitude towards is more progressive, I suppose.
Oh lol no I meant I want a "fear-free" clinic for me as a human! I think I'd be better about scheduling doctors appointments if they threw cheese at me.
We live in Germany so probably no such thing as fear-free clinics here, but we were pretty lucky and our current vet strikes a good balance with our cats I think.
Ha! My partner is French, so she would definitely love if the doctor's office had cheese, especially if it came with baguette.
ooh yeah french cheese and bread especially 😋
Thank you for sharing your experience. You've described a situation that I think highlights the different dispositions and personalities dogs have, even when raised in loving and caring homes. I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing the more sensitive approach. I definitely think it's useful with certain dogs and in certain situations. For my specific scenario, I was getting frustrated because my dog had a visible health issue and was running fever. I needed her treated and the staff at the clinic were treating her like she would snap at any moment. I tried to tell them she had never been aggressive with humans in her 11 years of living (she's extremely submissive with humans), but they kept acting like she could snap at any moment. And then I started to wonder if this is just how things are done nowadays. I often feel like I'm aging out of life so I began to think maybe I'm just "old school" now. So I thought I'd get people's thoughts on the topic.
Oh, I didn't see it as criticism at all. In fact, I have often shared your sense of frustration and impatience - my partner even more so. Like I said, if it weren't for our reactive dog, we'd still be going to the other (old school vet), because despite his more businesslike approach, that clinic was walking distance from our house and was absolutely amazing at communication and making room for emergency visits. The new clinic, even though it handles our reactive dog much better, is almost impossible to make appointments at (super busy and not great at communicating).
So did you accompany your second dog during all of those adaptation visits I just didn’t understand that?
Yes. One of us is in the room with him for every visit. The idea is to both get him more comfortable in the environment of the clinic, but also to help him build trust with the vet techs. We have a couple of techs that he sees consistently, so whenever he needs to go to the clinic for any reason it is someone that he knows and trusts that meets him. Consequently, we can do a lot of the regular care stuff (vaccines mainly) without needing to sedate him. When he sees the actual veterinarian, he may or may not be sedated depending on what needs to be done. Even for the sedation visits, having the calming presence of a tech that he knows is very important. The first time we tried to do a sedation visit, there was a scheduling mix-up and one of his trusted techs wasn't there. He was so stressed out that his adrenaline burned straight through the sedation (he never fell asleep, even after a second dose), and we had to schedule an entirely new appointment.
I agree that it really depends on the dog. I have a very happy-go-lucky mutt that loves people, and she loves vet visits. We go to a teaching vet practice (so there's usually students working alongside a supervisor), and I think this is what makes it a good mix. They're following all the newest guidelines about treating the animals with patience and kindness, but they absolutely manhandle my dog when needed. For example, she hates getting her nails clipped, and she really struggles to get away while they do it, but it doesn't hurt her and, more importantly, hasn't soured her on the vet at all. In fact, as soon as she's off the examination table, she relaxes completely and she loves that she's getting attention from so many people in the room.
That said, this same dog needed months of work because she was very dog-reactive (not aggressive but distressed and barking), and she only got to being her happy and confident self because we worked with a very patient trainer who made accommodations for her in the class. We absolutely had to let her do things at her own pace, be very liberal with treats, and in general not push her into anything. So I can 100% see how other dogs can have issues with going to the vet, and how this kind of approach would help them immensely.
I like when vets manhandle my dog. Makes visits fast and efficient. This vet we visit makes dogs take their deworming pills by pushing into their throat, takes a second. Looks very professional and experienced.
Although even this vet which is good in my opinion once tortured my dog. During an ear exam he thought he saw a spike or something deep down inside my dogs ear canal. The vet tried to pull it out with some pincers, while my dog was having none of it and it was three people holding him down. In the end I got angry with the guy and told him to stop because clearly a procedure like this shouldn’t be done without anesthesia when dog is protesting so much. In the end he didn’t pull anything out of the ear and I just told myself that he probably saw some fur or something to calm myself down. Doesn't look like my dog is bothered by anything in this area and his hearing seems fine.
I personally feel like when there's an issue, the dogs kinda have to be firmly handled. It isn't always pleasant but I flash back to being a kid and being upset when the family dog had to go to the vet. The people that raised me assured me dogs are tougher than we think they are and that the dog may look distressed but the visit is for their own good and they'll be fine afterward. I do spoil my dog and let her do things other people might not allow. But when it comes to health, I think discomfort is unavoidable and I certainly don't see it as "psychologically damaging".
Is the sensitive approach maybe more suited to abused dogs?
I guess with abused dogs it would make more sense to go slower with them. My dog isn’t abused, or at least I hope so because I’m strict with him. But it’s dogs life, we shouldn’t humanize them, even though they are part of family.
When our vet is finished my dog is the happiest dog ever because he gets to leave. They get over firm handling fast and I’m almost sure if you speak to them they understand that it was for their own good.
When you said abused I got curious about the kind of dog you have. Maybe if it’s an old rescue of fighter type, that vet might have some experience with those and it’s definitely not fun to be hurt. So if you know what your dog can take just try talking to this vet next time or maybe look for another one.
The dog I have now was from my local animal control but I got her as a puppy, so no behavioral issues. If anything, she's just shy. The dog I had before her was a year old when I got her. She had been found wandering around an overpass so she did have behavioral issues. I couldn't ever confirm it but I suspected she was a red heeler because of her appearance. She was also extremely smart. Like, so smart she was a little weird. For example, she learned my daily routine and if I didn't do something like I normally would, she would walk over to where I would normally be at a certain time and stare at me, wondering why I wasn't having coffee at the normal time. She was also the type that would engage her anal glands if she were scared enough. Idk if a sensitive vet would've helped her. And by no means am I criticizing sensitive vets. I just was surprised at how this particular vet acted with the dog I have now. She gets shy and scared but in all her 11 years, she has never bitten or even growled at anyone, not even strangers.
For what it's worth, you've presented a false dichotomy. Not all vets are either acupuncture/meditation, or old-school-hands-on right away. There's a gradient, which ought to be recognized.
My opinion is that dogs ... are dogs. They aren't people so we shouldn't treat them as though they are; but at the same time, we shouldn't treat them as though they lack agency, likes/dislikes, or that sort of thing. It sounds like OP and their dog have a good understanding of what does and does not work for them, and they had a mis-match with a vet that simply didn't work for them. Heck, that vet might be really new, too - and eager to apply their book-learnin' without recognizing the actual situation they are in.
That said, the fact that the vet was utilizing (perhaps incorrectly) your dog's body language IS a good thing. While dogs aren't humans, they DO share many of the same mannerisms as we do; that's what happens when you co-evolve alongside each other for tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years. A doctor wouldn't just start man-handling a person that is clearly on edge and seemingly violent, even if they "had a job to do". We shouldn't expect any less from vets.
My dog currently goes to a fear-free vet, and it's great. Yes, it might cost a bit more, and/or visits may take longer, but the upside is that no one gets hurt, no one gets traumatized, and my dog actually enjoys going to the vet. My previous dog did not go to a fear-free vet, and he ended up biting at least one vet. There's a wide variety of reasons for that, not the least of which was the vet did not read the dog's body language and was overconfident in his ability to just "do his job".
All of this is to say ... different strokes for different folks. What works for you doesn't work for others. Find a vet that fits both you and your dog.
It wasn't my intention to present a false dichotomy. I don't mean to portray the situation as there only being one dynamic or another and no in-between. Of course, there are lots of vets in my area and they're all different. I merely wanted to get people's thoughts and opinions on how they feel a vet should handle their dog because I am curious about the different approaches and wanted to hear about them. I described only 2 approaches that I'm personally familiar with. That's why I asked about it here, so I could get more feedback about what other people want, expect, and do according to their dog's needs. I presented the scenario I encountered to flesh out why I'm asking this question and the curiosity I felt after my encounter. I didn't think I needed to point out that situations like these aren't limited to one scenario or the other. I guess I'll be more clear if I post again.
TLDR- I presented two scenarios I have personally encountered. I realize there's more variation than just the two scenarios. So I ask an online community to post their experiences and opinions for more insight.
It's all good. I can't say I've ever met or seen anyone doing dog acupuncture or dog meditation, and I certainly haven't seen a vet basically "sit in the corner" and be unwilling to look at a dog. Our experiences are quite different!
For my part, I'd want and expect the vet to have my dog's best interests at heart. If my dog requires more TLC to get through the appointment, I'd share that information with my vet; if my dog is tolerant towards an all-business approach, I'd share that too. If the vet didn't listen to our needs on either front, I would go see another vet. I've done it before as my dog's needs have changed.
I see the vet for my dog as being similar to having a PCP for my personal health care. If I don't get on with my doctor, I'll see a different one. Similarly, if I have an emergent health crisis that requires immediate attention, I'll go to the ER or to Urgent Care - with the full understanding that the health care I get there, won't be the same as I get at my PCP. The same is true for animal urgent care vets, with whom my dog does not have a great relationship - but with whom we also have that mutual understanding, that we "just need to get through it".
I can understand why a vet may be cautious, especially if they have been bitten in the past. I don't think it's fair for anyone to place themselves in danger for their job.
However, I prefer the vet to just get on with it, so I feed my dogs a constant stream of treats while they're being examined so that they focus on me rather than what the vet is doing. I'm not sure how these appointments would go if I didn't distract my dogs, but I do know that the vet really appreciates it — as do the dogs, of course (they get super excited when they see we're going to the vet).
Yes, I do try to help out. If staying near and putting my arm around her helps, I'll certainly do that. If I need to lift her tail or move her for any reason, I'm happy to do that too. I can also see how a nervous dog can be tricky to navigate. People can say all day long "oh my dog is nice, she never bites!" But that's no guarantee the dog won't still nip at someone.
What does IME mean?
In My Experience
Sorry for the super late reply, it means "in my experience"