Thinking about if this situation goes viral... it's so delicate (infohazard?), I'm a bit worried about if this gets picked up and talked about by more influencers. Are we gonna see twitch...
Thinking about if this situation goes viral... it's so delicate (infohazard?), I'm a bit worried about if this gets picked up and talked about by more influencers. Are we gonna see twitch streamers and YouTubers watching this video, discussing it with less care, the tasteless ones actually navigating the site?
I think it's inevitable that influencers will pick up on this. It's—and I hate to say it—juicy and edgy content that barrel-scraping influencers will use to rack up views. It's the digital content...
I think it's inevitable that influencers will pick up on this. It's—and I hate to say it—juicy and edgy content that barrel-scraping influencers will use to rack up views. It's the digital content evolutionary race. Almost all will denounce it. But nonetheless, all will perpetuate a kind of Barbara Streisand effect, raising this website from obscurity and into the mainstream.
And then maybe 1% of their many viewers will take a serious interest in it, and of those, inevitably some may then go down the rabbit hole...
Yeah, it's... it's something I struggled to even post here. Sure it's on youtube and there's nothing I can do about it there and I think it needs seeing/discussion if for nothing more than so the...
Yeah, it's... it's something I struggled to even post here.
Sure it's on youtube and there's nothing I can do about it there and I think it needs seeing/discussion if for nothing more than so the people here are aware of it.
Tildes is the only place I'd ever actually share it for fear of it being a very real infohazard if posted anywhere else.
It brings up an interesting point that my view has evolved towards as I've gotten older. When I was a young teenager growing up on the internet with a rebellious anti establishment streak, I was...
It brings up an interesting point that my view has evolved towards as I've gotten older. When I was a young teenager growing up on the internet with a rebellious anti establishment streak, I was very much of the "information wants to be free" camp. Everyone should always have access to all information all the time, and even personally, nothing bad can come of learning as much as possible.
I've realized that that's not really the case as I've gotten older. There are certain things that knowing or seeing will only bring me pain or unhappiness. I'm very conscious nowadays about the things I search for or look at, and I'm also very deliberate about the thing I learn. Either because they're potentially traumatic, depressing, or just plain useless to my life.
15 years ago I would have immediately tracked down this site and poured over it. Nowadays? Nah, it's just going to make me depressed.
Infohazard indeed. I can't find it (and really would rather not), so it's safe by being somewhat obscure, but I'm kinda worried about the possibility of there being a moral panic and the resulting...
Infohazard indeed.
I can't find it (and really would rather not), so it's safe by being somewhat obscure, but I'm kinda worried about the possibility of there being a moral panic and the resulting damage that could cause.
What's truly baffling is that this isn't some seedy dark web shit. This is a website you can find on the clear web quite easily in a Google search. It amazes me that Google scramble furiously to...
What's truly baffling is that this isn't some seedy dark web shit. This is a website you can find on the clear web quite easily in a Google search.
It amazes me that Google scramble furiously to delist torrent trackers and medical disinfromation, but not a toxic forum on ending your own life.
from someone who has been passively suicidal for some time now, i can say that having a place where you can talk openly and freely with other suicidal people is very valuable. people who have...
from someone who has been passively suicidal for some time now, i can say that having a place where you can talk openly and freely with other suicidal people is very valuable. people who have never been suicidal themselves and never bothered to learn about it are so often aggressive, confrontational, dismissive. you can find nice people of course but it's much easier to find them in a place full of people who get you. i haven't finished the video, i think i only watched the first 20-ish mins, but Tantacrul talks in this same impersonal way. he seems to have read the relevant literature but understanding depression on a clinical level and a personal level is different, and the latter is often lacking when you're talking with "normal people"
not to say that that site should continue to exist, just wanted to give you my perspective on why people might gravitate to it. i used to browse r/suicidewatch on reddit and it was nice to look at other people's problems and worries and vents and see kind and encouraging and solidaric words in the replies. oftentimes that "i feel you" is necessary. and then i've bonded with a many of people over it, though it might just be that my friend group is 90% trans people, we're one sad bunch
The problem here is that outside of a controlled clinical environment, this can make the problem worse. Depression is ultimately an issue of skewed perspectives. You don't see the world in the...
i can say that having a place where you can talk openly and freely with other suicidal people is very valuable. people who have never been suicidal themselves and never bothered to learn about it are so often aggressive, confrontational, dismissive. you can find nice people of course but it's much easier to find them in a place full of people who get you.
The problem here is that outside of a controlled clinical environment, this can make the problem worse. Depression is ultimately an issue of skewed perspectives. You don't see the world in the same way as someone who isn't depressed. Even if your situation is bad, if you put someone without depression in that situation, they'd be able to see some good things about it and maintain some happiness. When you surround yourself with like-minded people, that viewpoint becomes more and more normalized. Someone on the cusp of clawing their way out of depression can have enough self-awareness to thing "Actually, I know logically that happiness isn't out of reach, because plenty of other people are in my same situation and manage to be happy, even if I'm currently not happy". If you surround yourself with people that are also depressed, those thoughts won't surface because you're conditioning yourself to stay towards hopeless thoughts.
This is why support groups are led by trained mental health professionals. Its very easy for them to do more harm than good if not properly guided.
FYI, /r/suicidewatch actually did have a number of trained mental health professionals moderating it. I know because I was a mod there for many years myself. I am not a trained mental health...
This is why support groups are led by trained mental health professionals. Its very easy for them to do more harm than good if not properly guided.
FYI, /r/suicidewatch actually did have a number of trained mental health professionals moderating it. I know because I was a mod there for many years myself. I am not a trained mental health professional, and was on-hand mostly for technical assistance, but many of the other mods there came from social work/mental health counseling backgrounds, and/or worked at various suicide prevention hotlines.
p.s. Unlike the disgusting site mentioned in the video, any hint of encouragement in /r/suicidewatch resulted in an immediate subreddit ban. We took that sort of thing, and all the other rules regarding user behavior (e.g. no proselytizing, "tough love" or "guilt trip" responses) very very seriously.
any group benefits a lot from friendliness, support, solidarity, successes and mutual help. i can tell you from personal experience that no suicidal person actually wants to die, and even more so,...
any group benefits a lot from friendliness, support, solidarity, successes and mutual help. i can tell you from personal experience that no suicidal person actually wants to die, and even more so, we hate seeing other people suffer. your assumption that being suicidal becomes normal is flat out wrong, i've never met a single suicidal person who doesn't want to get better and most jump at the opportunity to lift others up and make them feel better, if for a bit. idk maybe i was just lucky, but i'm willing to put my trust in people, especially since not every group can have their own personal mental health professional. though it's great to have those of course too
Well, I would say there's really a huge variance of the types of communities related to mental health. There are of course a lot of really positive ones where people are trying to help one...
Well, I would say there's really a huge variance of the types of communities related to mental health. There are of course a lot of really positive ones where people are trying to help one another, but there are also a lot of places that, while not explicitly encouraging suicide, like the OP's site, they do passively encourage "wallowing" for lack of a better term. Posts on these forms get replies that aren't offering guidance or support, they offer commiseration, which can feel good in the short term, but in the long term aren't really beneficial. When I get some time, I'll track it down, but I've read some research on this which is what leads me to that conclusion.
It's the difference between the response to "Life sucks, I can't see any way out either" being "I understand feeling that way, but I still believe we're all going to get through this" or "What specifically makes you feel like that? Are there any reasons you can identify, or is it just a general feeling" vs "Yeah it does. I don't even know why I bothered getting out of bed this morning".
When the latter type is more common than the former type, the forum will tend to have more of a net negative effect than a positive one.
do you really think there are "also a lot of places that, while not explicitly encouraging suicide, like the OP's site, they do passively encourage "wallowing" for lack of a better term"? i...
do you really think there are "also a lot of places that, while not explicitly encouraging suicide, like the OP's site, they do passively encourage "wallowing" for lack of a better term"? i wouldn't make such an assumption unless you do know a lot of such sites/places
Yep. The depression subreddit on reddit for one. It has almost one million subscribers. I've gone there while feeling low before, and it absolutely does not help at all. I could see how constantly...
Yep. The depression subreddit on reddit for one. It has almost one million subscribers. I've gone there while feeling low before, and it absolutely does not help at all. I could see how constantly exposing your pain and commiserating could get addictive, but I don't think it's helpful.
Tantacrul is a composer and design lead of a popular music sheet writing software. Recently, someone he did not personally know, but was an active member in his community seeming normal, killed...
Exemplary
Tantacrul is a composer and design lead of a popular music sheet writing software. Recently, someone he did not personally know, but was an active member in his community seeming normal, killed himself. By chance, Tantacrul discovered his youtube channel, where he posted a final music piece and a goodbye message not even 24 hours after they were posted. They researched until they found his real name and country, contacted authorities but it was too late.
Throughout this research, they discovered a forum which, to put it simply, encourages people to commit suicide and actively aids them in this by providing methods on how to do so, where the person who killed themselves was active. There is a seedy profiteering part in it as well where a particularly complex method is pushed onto new users, but the details on how to fully achieve it is hidden behind a 100 USD yearly subscription paywall. Said forum is a cesspool of misery, and apparently hunting ground for some very disturbing characters, it has lead to murders, and in four known cases, to suicides.
The owners of the board defend themselves with the typical free speech defence in addition to a moral belief that one should be able to do whatever they want with their body and a healthy dose of antinatalism (apathy to one's own birth).
Tantacrul basically dissects and disarms the arguments of the board owners and in the end goes into detail about proposed legislative measures to curb the effect of such forums (and possible drawbacks of it, but he doesn't go too deeply into that rabbit hole because he wants to stay on topic).
Thinking about if this situation goes viral... it's so delicate (infohazard?), I'm a bit worried about if this gets picked up and talked about by more influencers. Are we gonna see twitch streamers and YouTubers watching this video, discussing it with less care, the tasteless ones actually navigating the site?
I think it's inevitable that influencers will pick up on this. It's—and I hate to say it—juicy and edgy content that barrel-scraping influencers will use to rack up views. It's the digital content evolutionary race. Almost all will denounce it. But nonetheless, all will perpetuate a kind of Barbara Streisand effect, raising this website from obscurity and into the mainstream.
And then maybe 1% of their many viewers will take a serious interest in it, and of those, inevitably some may then go down the rabbit hole...
Yeah, it's... it's something I struggled to even post here.
Sure it's on youtube and there's nothing I can do about it there and I think it needs seeing/discussion if for nothing more than so the people here are aware of it.
Tildes is the only place I'd ever actually share it for fear of it being a very real infohazard if posted anywhere else.
It brings up an interesting point that my view has evolved towards as I've gotten older. When I was a young teenager growing up on the internet with a rebellious anti establishment streak, I was very much of the "information wants to be free" camp. Everyone should always have access to all information all the time, and even personally, nothing bad can come of learning as much as possible.
I've realized that that's not really the case as I've gotten older. There are certain things that knowing or seeing will only bring me pain or unhappiness. I'm very conscious nowadays about the things I search for or look at, and I'm also very deliberate about the thing I learn. Either because they're potentially traumatic, depressing, or just plain useless to my life.
15 years ago I would have immediately tracked down this site and poured over it. Nowadays? Nah, it's just going to make me depressed.
Infohazard indeed.
I can't find it (and really would rather not), so it's safe by being somewhat obscure, but I'm kinda worried about the possibility of there being a moral panic and the resulting damage that could cause.
What's truly baffling is that this isn't some seedy dark web shit. This is a website you can find on the clear web quite easily in a Google search.
It amazes me that Google scramble furiously to delist torrent trackers and medical disinfromation, but not a toxic forum on ending your own life.
To be clear, Google doesn't scramble. IP owners scramble. They report the sites, and they don't give two shits about non-IP-infringing sites.
from someone who has been passively suicidal for some time now, i can say that having a place where you can talk openly and freely with other suicidal people is very valuable. people who have never been suicidal themselves and never bothered to learn about it are so often aggressive, confrontational, dismissive. you can find nice people of course but it's much easier to find them in a place full of people who get you. i haven't finished the video, i think i only watched the first 20-ish mins, but Tantacrul talks in this same impersonal way. he seems to have read the relevant literature but understanding depression on a clinical level and a personal level is different, and the latter is often lacking when you're talking with "normal people"
not to say that that site should continue to exist, just wanted to give you my perspective on why people might gravitate to it. i used to browse r/suicidewatch on reddit and it was nice to look at other people's problems and worries and vents and see kind and encouraging and solidaric words in the replies. oftentimes that "i feel you" is necessary. and then i've bonded with a many of people over it, though it might just be that my friend group is 90% trans people, we're one sad bunch
The problem here is that outside of a controlled clinical environment, this can make the problem worse. Depression is ultimately an issue of skewed perspectives. You don't see the world in the same way as someone who isn't depressed. Even if your situation is bad, if you put someone without depression in that situation, they'd be able to see some good things about it and maintain some happiness. When you surround yourself with like-minded people, that viewpoint becomes more and more normalized. Someone on the cusp of clawing their way out of depression can have enough self-awareness to thing "Actually, I know logically that happiness isn't out of reach, because plenty of other people are in my same situation and manage to be happy, even if I'm currently not happy". If you surround yourself with people that are also depressed, those thoughts won't surface because you're conditioning yourself to stay towards hopeless thoughts.
This is why support groups are led by trained mental health professionals. Its very easy for them to do more harm than good if not properly guided.
FYI, /r/suicidewatch actually did have a number of trained mental health professionals moderating it. I know because I was a mod there for many years myself. I am not a trained mental health professional, and was on-hand mostly for technical assistance, but many of the other mods there came from social work/mental health counseling backgrounds, and/or worked at various suicide prevention hotlines.
p.s. Unlike the disgusting site mentioned in the video, any hint of encouragement in /r/suicidewatch resulted in an immediate subreddit ban. We took that sort of thing, and all the other rules regarding user behavior (e.g. no proselytizing, "tough love" or "guilt trip" responses) very very seriously.
any group benefits a lot from friendliness, support, solidarity, successes and mutual help. i can tell you from personal experience that no suicidal person actually wants to die, and even more so, we hate seeing other people suffer. your assumption that being suicidal becomes normal is flat out wrong, i've never met a single suicidal person who doesn't want to get better and most jump at the opportunity to lift others up and make them feel better, if for a bit. idk maybe i was just lucky, but i'm willing to put my trust in people, especially since not every group can have their own personal mental health professional. though it's great to have those of course too
I like your answer and I agree with a lot of it but aren't you doing exactly what @MyTildesAccount is voicing concern about here?
Well, I would say there's really a huge variance of the types of communities related to mental health. There are of course a lot of really positive ones where people are trying to help one another, but there are also a lot of places that, while not explicitly encouraging suicide, like the OP's site, they do passively encourage "wallowing" for lack of a better term. Posts on these forms get replies that aren't offering guidance or support, they offer commiseration, which can feel good in the short term, but in the long term aren't really beneficial. When I get some time, I'll track it down, but I've read some research on this which is what leads me to that conclusion.
It's the difference between the response to "Life sucks, I can't see any way out either" being "I understand feeling that way, but I still believe we're all going to get through this" or "What specifically makes you feel like that? Are there any reasons you can identify, or is it just a general feeling" vs "Yeah it does. I don't even know why I bothered getting out of bed this morning".
When the latter type is more common than the former type, the forum will tend to have more of a net negative effect than a positive one.
do you really think there are "also a lot of places that, while not explicitly encouraging suicide, like the OP's site, they do passively encourage "wallowing" for lack of a better term"? i wouldn't make such an assumption unless you do know a lot of such sites/places
Yep. The depression subreddit on reddit for one. It has almost one million subscribers. I've gone there while feeling low before, and it absolutely does not help at all. I could see how constantly exposing your pain and commiserating could get addictive, but I don't think it's helpful.
i'm sorry. it was the opposite experience for me, it helped me quite a bit. i hope you were able to find a place that fits you better <3
Can someone give me a "too depressing; didn't watch" summary?
Tantacrul is a composer and design lead of a popular music sheet writing software. Recently, someone he did not personally know, but was an active member in his community seeming normal, killed himself. By chance, Tantacrul discovered his youtube channel, where he posted a final music piece and a goodbye message not even 24 hours after they were posted. They researched until they found his real name and country, contacted authorities but it was too late.
Throughout this research, they discovered a forum which, to put it simply, encourages people to commit suicide and actively aids them in this by providing methods on how to do so, where the person who killed themselves was active. There is a seedy profiteering part in it as well where a particularly complex method is pushed onto new users, but the details on how to fully achieve it is hidden behind a 100 USD yearly subscription paywall. Said forum is a cesspool of misery, and apparently hunting ground for some very disturbing characters, it has lead to murders, and in four known cases, to suicides.
The owners of the board defend themselves with the typical free speech defence in addition to a moral belief that one should be able to do whatever they want with their body and a healthy dose of antinatalism (apathy to one's own birth).
Tantacrul basically dissects and disarms the arguments of the board owners and in the end goes into detail about proposed legislative measures to curb the effect of such forums (and possible drawbacks of it, but he doesn't go too deeply into that rabbit hole because he wants to stay on topic).