During the build up to the SCOTUS decision, I followed a lot of what writer Jay Caspian Kang was saying, particularly his discussion with NPR's Throughline and his piece in the New Yorker. It...
During the build up to the SCOTUS decision, I followed a lot of what writer Jay Caspian Kang was saying, particularly his discussion with NPR's Throughline and his piece in the New Yorker. It convinced me of the failings of affirmative action (AA) not in that it discriminated against whites, as Ed Blum inauthentically argues, but that it simply didn't deliver what many believed it would : access for underrepresented and less privileged communities. Instead, AA was misappropriated to pick the most privileged members of under represented groups. I mean what can you call someone who hires private coaches and consultants for their kids or asks parents to give up on hobbies to instead hover of their kids.
This whole piece shows that AA wasn't the real issue, but instead it's the American obsession with elitism and exclusivity. I mean look at this sentence
Her older sister, who applied to colleges five years ago with a similar resume, got rejected from 18 of 20 or so schools and ended up at Boston College.
It almost seems like getting into BC is a failure and that the older sister is doomed to a life of mediocrity. College consultants for elementary kids and cram schools, it's all this vicious cycle that creates this insane feedback loop that feeds into the power we've given these elite institutions.
AA definitely has other issues but American elitism is pervasive, especially in higher ed. The solution, in my opinion, is what Bernie suggested: make public colleges free. The elitism is a...
AA wasn't the real issue, but instead it's the American obsession with elitism and exclusivity
AA definitely has other issues but American elitism is pervasive, especially in higher ed. The solution, in my opinion, is what Bernie suggested: make public colleges free. The elitism is a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the ROI for Ivy League schools is high and therefore the candidates applying are more competitive. By dropping the bottom out from public schools, the ROI equation changes dramatically (suddenly getting saddled with 20 years of non-dischargeable student loan debt at an Ivy doesn’t seem as appealing as getting a comparable degree at State for free). Free public education has plenty of other benefits but democratizing higher ed is one of the most important in my opinion.
I graduated from Texas A&M (a state school) in 2003. My all in tuition, fees, room and board was about $3500 per semester and that was engineering (which had more expensive lab fees than most...
I graduated from Texas A&M (a state school) in 2003. My all in tuition, fees, room and board was about $3500 per semester and that was engineering (which had more expensive lab fees than most majors).
My last year was the year they lifted the legislative cap on tuition cost per credit hour. It immediately went up several hundred percent. Fortunately, I was grandfathered in to the old rates, so I was able to skate out ahead of them.
My last year was also when we started to see more spike in the cost of textbooks and shenanigans like digital codes to keep you from selling your books back. Before that, I did spend few hundred on books each semester, but I was able to buy used and sell the ones I didn't want to keep back for about half what I paid for them. So it seemed like the time when the milking of college students and their parents was beginning.
My point is that state school education used to be a LOT more affordable. I graduated with no debt thanks to scholarships, working part time through school, paid internships, but with minimal financial assistance from my parents. I did see some people struggle with those smaller costs, so free would be fantastic, but even a return to those levels of subsidy would be a significant improvement and advantage over the Ivys.
I'm all for publicly funded higher education, but I don't know if it'll fix the competition issue that much. Almost half the top 50 ranked schools are public, after all. If the price goes down,...
I'm all for publicly funded higher education, but I don't know if it'll fix the competition issue that much. Almost half the top 50 ranked schools are public, after all. If the price goes down, then those schools will just become even more competitive.
Also, when Ivy League tuition is already 4x public tuition, lowering public tuition to zero might not move the needle that much for the ROI calculation for families considering both options.
Though I agree with the obsession with elitism, this may also mean that an Asian applicant aiming at Boston College ended up at a lower ranked school, and so on. Asian students across the spectrum...
It almost seems like getting into BC is a failure and that the older sister is doomed to a life of mediocrity. College consultants for elementary kids and cram schools, it's all this vicious cycle that creates this insane feedback loop that feeds into the power we've given these elite institutions.
Though I agree with the obsession with elitism, this may also mean that an Asian applicant aiming at Boston College ended up at a lower ranked school, and so on. Asian students across the spectrum have to work harder than their counterparts to earn the same admissions, which is unfair.
As an Asian American who went through this process (relatively) recently, (is 10 years ago now recently? I hope other people might have more updated info) but I think the stress has and will...
As an Asian American who went through this process (relatively) recently, (is 10 years ago now recently? I hope other people might have more updated info) but I think the stress has and will always be there, regardless of AA being there or not. A common joke I've seen in my Asian American circles is that our parents view us as their 401k's, so the pressure to succeed in the quickest way possible will always loom. In addition, the prestige of major schools to show off to relatives back home is always there too, (to show off or to show that moving to America isn't a bad decision? No idea)
I do wish that parents will understand though. They mean well. At the end of the day, even someone like me who barely passed an engineering degree at a really great state university can still be slacking off typing dumb comments on the internet in the middle of the day, lol.
BTW your link for the National Council isn't working! I'd love to read it though
Is that not a messed up way to view ones children? Or for children to feel like that's how their parents view them? How does ones parents "mean well" if they view their children as a retirement...
A common joke I've seen in my Asian American circles is that our parents view us as their 401k's, so the pressure to succeed in the quickest way possible will always loom.
Is that not a messed up way to view ones children? Or for children to feel like that's how their parents view them? How does ones parents "mean well" if they view their children as a retirement fund? I'm not trying to be aggressive, I just can't imagine joking about how my parents view me as an investment for a retirement fund and being okay having a relationship with them.
Cultural differences. Some people might view it as messed up if you don't want to take care of your parents when they're old, given that they've spent all their money raising you and supporting...
Cultural differences. Some people might view it as messed up if you don't want to take care of your parents when they're old, given that they've spent all their money raising you and supporting your grandparents. Saving for your own retirement is kind of a recent invention, and it's probably the exception rather than the norm worldwide.
lol welcome to the world of being Asian American. It's a relatively common thing amongst immigrant parents, I feel. I'm privileged enough to actually know that they're jokes (my parents have...
lol welcome to the world of being Asian American. It's a relatively common thing amongst immigrant parents, I feel. I'm privileged enough to actually know that they're jokes (my parents have actual 401k's). There's a weird crossroads between Eastern and Western cultures and family values, especially in regards to filial piety. It comes up a lot and affects a lot of us, whether we know it or not. And yeah if my parent's needed it it would definitely look really messed up if I didn't take care of them either, after moving to America and working hard to give me a good life. (fun fact, it's also seen as partially a reason that there's a stereotype where Asian guys have a harder time in the dating world, many people aren't willing to take up that burden)
I'd recommend Simu Liu's autobiography, "We Were Dreamers", since he talks about the struggle a lot in that book and puts it in a very relatable way. It's relatively common in Asian American circles to have relatively similar struggles like that, regardless of "what kind" of Asian you are.
(Small disclaimer I don't speak for all Asian Americans. I'd say that 90% of my friends are Asian American though and I've talked to many a good length about stuff like this, but ymmv)
Thanks for the reply and the book suggestion! :) I have immigrant parents as well, but we are Eastern European, so different culture, although still strongly family-based. I did struggle with my...
Thanks for the reply and the book suggestion! :)
I have immigrant parents as well, but we are Eastern European, so different culture, although still strongly family-based. I did struggle with my own issues with anxious desire to succeed in America due to my family's sacrifices. For me though, it does not seem so much focused on obtaining wealth for my family; there is some level of family care that is the cultural norm, I just don't think the expectation of caring for my family is as much tied to wealth. Of course, my experience may be different compared to other Eastern European family values as well.
We have empirical evidence from prior times when AA was struck down on a more local level, particularly in California. For better or for worse, the Asian American population at Berkeley went from...
We have empirical evidence from prior times when AA was struck down on a more local level, particularly in California. For better or for worse, the Asian American population at Berkeley went from sub 20% to being over 50% of the entire student base. Anecdotes about people being stressed (of course they are?) or fears that racial bias will continue are not particularly evidence of anything.
I knew Asians were well represented at Berkley but I didn't know that total Asian enrollment has been above 50% for the last few years. As you stated, California has a history of trying race blind...
I knew Asians were well represented at Berkley but I didn't know that total Asian enrollment has been above 50% for the last few years. As you stated, California has a history of trying race blind admissions and some have argued that the AAPI increases at UCs are due to theses race blind efforts.
However, I'm of the belief that the AAPI increases in diversity at UC schools partially reflect demographic shifts in California, namely the influx of Asians. I think the biggest thing to note is that Asians in CA are far more educated and have far more wealth. This could explain why other minority groups, namely Latinos, have seen decreases in admissions despite continuing to grow. To me it seems like what the CA race blind admissions did was really just favor those with the most resources.
I think you’re confused about what I mean. California independently struck down AA ages ago for public institutions in the state. I’m not talking about the Supreme Court case.
I think you’re confused about what I mean. California independently struck down AA ages ago for public institutions in the state. I’m not talking about the Supreme Court case.
Whatever it is, it's a fundamentally different question to ask "do you support affirmative action to help minorities" and "do you support affirmative action favoring underrepresented racial groups...
Whatever it is, it's a fundamentally different question to ask "do you support affirmative action to help minorities" and "do you support affirmative action favoring underrepresented racial groups and disfavoring overrepresented racial groups".
Yeah, if the pollsters added a qualifier “even at the expense of your children’s access” to the favor/oppose question, you’d likely see support drop off dramatically.
Yeah, if the pollsters added a qualifier “even at the expense of your children’s access” to the favor/oppose question, you’d likely see support drop off dramatically.
During the build up to the SCOTUS decision, I followed a lot of what writer Jay Caspian Kang was saying, particularly his discussion with NPR's Throughline and his piece in the New Yorker. It convinced me of the failings of affirmative action (AA) not in that it discriminated against whites, as Ed Blum inauthentically argues, but that it simply didn't deliver what many believed it would : access for underrepresented and less privileged communities. Instead, AA was misappropriated to pick the most privileged members of under represented groups. I mean what can you call someone who hires private coaches and consultants for their kids or asks parents to give up on hobbies to instead hover of their kids.
This whole piece shows that AA wasn't the real issue, but instead it's the American obsession with elitism and exclusivity. I mean look at this sentence
It almost seems like getting into BC is a failure and that the older sister is doomed to a life of mediocrity. College consultants for elementary kids and cram schools, it's all this vicious cycle that creates this insane feedback loop that feeds into the power we've given these elite institutions.
AA definitely has other issues but American elitism is pervasive, especially in higher ed. The solution, in my opinion, is what Bernie suggested: make public colleges free. The elitism is a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the ROI for Ivy League schools is high and therefore the candidates applying are more competitive. By dropping the bottom out from public schools, the ROI equation changes dramatically (suddenly getting saddled with 20 years of non-dischargeable student loan debt at an Ivy doesn’t seem as appealing as getting a comparable degree at State for free). Free public education has plenty of other benefits but democratizing higher ed is one of the most important in my opinion.
I graduated from Texas A&M (a state school) in 2003. My all in tuition, fees, room and board was about $3500 per semester and that was engineering (which had more expensive lab fees than most majors).
My last year was the year they lifted the legislative cap on tuition cost per credit hour. It immediately went up several hundred percent. Fortunately, I was grandfathered in to the old rates, so I was able to skate out ahead of them.
My last year was also when we started to see more spike in the cost of textbooks and shenanigans like digital codes to keep you from selling your books back. Before that, I did spend few hundred on books each semester, but I was able to buy used and sell the ones I didn't want to keep back for about half what I paid for them. So it seemed like the time when the milking of college students and their parents was beginning.
My point is that state school education used to be a LOT more affordable. I graduated with no debt thanks to scholarships, working part time through school, paid internships, but with minimal financial assistance from my parents. I did see some people struggle with those smaller costs, so free would be fantastic, but even a return to those levels of subsidy would be a significant improvement and advantage over the Ivys.
I'm all for publicly funded higher education, but I don't know if it'll fix the competition issue that much. Almost half the top 50 ranked schools are public, after all. If the price goes down, then those schools will just become even more competitive.
Also, when Ivy League tuition is already 4x public tuition, lowering public tuition to zero might not move the needle that much for the ROI calculation for families considering both options.
Though I agree with the obsession with elitism, this may also mean that an Asian applicant aiming at Boston College ended up at a lower ranked school, and so on. Asian students across the spectrum have to work harder than their counterparts to earn the same admissions, which is unfair.
As an Asian American who went through this process (relatively) recently, (is 10 years ago now recently? I hope other people might have more updated info) but I think the stress has and will always be there, regardless of AA being there or not. A common joke I've seen in my Asian American circles is that our parents view us as their 401k's, so the pressure to succeed in the quickest way possible will always loom. In addition, the prestige of major schools to show off to relatives back home is always there too, (to show off or to show that moving to America isn't a bad decision? No idea)
I do wish that parents will understand though. They mean well. At the end of the day, even someone like me who barely passed an engineering degree at a really great state university can still be slacking off typing dumb comments on the internet in the middle of the day, lol.
BTW your link for the National Council isn't working! I'd love to read it though
Is that not a messed up way to view ones children? Or for children to feel like that's how their parents view them? How does ones parents "mean well" if they view their children as a retirement fund? I'm not trying to be aggressive, I just can't imagine joking about how my parents view me as an investment for a retirement fund and being okay having a relationship with them.
Cultural differences. Some people might view it as messed up if you don't want to take care of your parents when they're old, given that they've spent all their money raising you and supporting your grandparents. Saving for your own retirement is kind of a recent invention, and it's probably the exception rather than the norm worldwide.
lol welcome to the world of being Asian American. It's a relatively common thing amongst immigrant parents, I feel. I'm privileged enough to actually know that they're jokes (my parents have actual 401k's). There's a weird crossroads between Eastern and Western cultures and family values, especially in regards to filial piety. It comes up a lot and affects a lot of us, whether we know it or not. And yeah if my parent's needed it it would definitely look really messed up if I didn't take care of them either, after moving to America and working hard to give me a good life. (fun fact, it's also seen as partially a reason that there's a stereotype where Asian guys have a harder time in the dating world, many people aren't willing to take up that burden)
I'd recommend Simu Liu's autobiography, "We Were Dreamers", since he talks about the struggle a lot in that book and puts it in a very relatable way. It's relatively common in Asian American circles to have relatively similar struggles like that, regardless of "what kind" of Asian you are.
(Small disclaimer I don't speak for all Asian Americans. I'd say that 90% of my friends are Asian American though and I've talked to many a good length about stuff like this, but ymmv)
Thanks for the reply and the book suggestion! :)
I have immigrant parents as well, but we are Eastern European, so different culture, although still strongly family-based. I did struggle with my own issues with anxious desire to succeed in America due to my family's sacrifices. For me though, it does not seem so much focused on obtaining wealth for my family; there is some level of family care that is the cultural norm, I just don't think the expectation of caring for my family is as much tied to wealth. Of course, my experience may be different compared to other Eastern European family values as well.
Yes for sure! I do wonder how much of an overlap eastern Europe has with Asian values, it's an interesting thing to think about for sure!
We have empirical evidence from prior times when AA was struck down on a more local level, particularly in California. For better or for worse, the Asian American population at Berkeley went from sub 20% to being over 50% of the entire student base. Anecdotes about people being stressed (of course they are?) or fears that racial bias will continue are not particularly evidence of anything.
I knew Asians were well represented at Berkley but I didn't know that total Asian enrollment has been above 50% for the last few years. As you stated, California has a history of trying race blind admissions and some have argued that the AAPI increases at UCs are due to theses race blind efforts.
However, I'm of the belief that the AAPI increases in diversity at UC schools partially reflect demographic shifts in California, namely the influx of Asians. I think the biggest thing to note is that Asians in CA are far more educated and have far more wealth. This could explain why other minority groups, namely Latinos, have seen decreases in admissions despite continuing to grow. To me it seems like what the CA race blind admissions did was really just favor those with the most resources.
edit : misread comment.
I think you’re confused about what I mean. California independently struck down AA ages ago for public institutions in the state. I’m not talking about the Supreme Court case.
Ah you are correct. I'll edit my comment.
Whatever it is, it's a fundamentally different question to ask "do you support affirmative action to help minorities" and "do you support affirmative action favoring underrepresented racial groups and disfavoring overrepresented racial groups".
Yeah, if the pollsters added a qualifier “even at the expense of your children’s access” to the favor/oppose question, you’d likely see support drop off dramatically.