31
votes
Moving to the other side of the Earth
The company I work for just announced they want to open a new office abroad, in Australia to be specific. We’re based in Denmark, and they’re hoping to have one person from here moving there, working full time.
We already have an office in the US, so it’s not an entirely new thing for us to open an office abroad.
However, I’m really thinking about letting the company know that I would like to go, and I think there is a pretty good chance that they would let me. My wife is open to the idea too. We have one child (she would be just over 3 when we would have to move), so it’s really good timing too…
Have any of you tried something like this? What was your experience like?
Lots of advice inbound. Some will probably be relevant, some will not. Take what you like and leave the rest.
My partner and I moved abroad in 2018. She is a German dual national, I'm a British dual national but we're both born and raised in the US. Brexit happened and I decided this was my chance to live on the continent. We didn't have the same structure as you - we both quit our jobs and got new ones - so we had more flexibility around where we landed. I'll leave that part out as I don't think it will be relevant.
We landed in Madrid first as I had a job offer waiting for me. We did a lot of learning in Madrid, around our relationship, community, expectations, joy, etc. We ended up only staying for 6 months because we hit some pretty big friction points. This will largely be negative but there is a positive side coming later. For context, we were both just ok at Spanish. Like we could get our point across but it would be a wandering mess and my comprehension was pretty low. All my coworkers were Spanish though so my language skills progressed much more quickly than hers because I had to speak it everyday. Big take aways below:
Finding Purpose and Joy: I had a job that I was really excited about and I had friends who lived in Madrid already - I had studied abroad there 10 years earlier. It meant that I sort of slid into a small community. I had 1 or 2 friends I could go out with, I was meeting lots of people (I worked with around 40ish people and we got lunch together every single day), I wasn't home much during the week, and I was largely thriving. On the flip side, my partner had a really hard time finding a job, wasn't finding community (and one of our friction points is I didn't feel like she was putting in the effort to build one), didn't enjoy my friends and co-workers like I did, and ended up putting a lot of pressure on me to provide joy when I wasn't working. Because of this mis-match, we ended up making each other miserable. She felt abandoned. I felt guilted and controlled. We almost split up about 10 times, like actual conversations about it.
Finding Community: Building off the point before, community is important and finding support networks outside of your partner is really important. In Madrid we didn't have a good "us" community. The language barrier made it tough, as it's hard to want to hang out with someone if you have to catch them up all the time on what the conversation is. So making friends in organic settings like the climbing gym, my normal goldmine for friends, didn't work well. We also did it with passive intent - assuming if we went to a place consistently we would see people consistently - that doesn't always work. And lastly, we only lasted 6 months and it takes longer than that to find friends and build a community.
Finding a place to live: We were lucky to have friends we could stay with as we found an apartment and I was very fortunate to be on "US" wages in the Spanish economy so we had a pretty nice selection of where we could live. My partner went to look at apartments when I was at work and she ended up picking where we live before I saw it in person. We learned this is a bad idea. We ended up on the top floor of a great apartment building, but she is 5'2" and I'm 6'2". The ceiling was sloped in every room so that she could stand upright everywhere I could in about 2/3rd of the house. It was really frustrating and we had a year lease (that we ended up breaking anyway). So make sure you're both happy with it and both see it in person.
So after 5 months of struggling, and a very, very sketchy work trip to the Pakistan/Afghan boarder. I told my partner if she found a job anywhere else we could up and move and I'd quit my job. She got a job in Amsterdam about a month later and so we up and R. U. N. N. O. F T. She had a job with an US based company - Patagonia - which meant it was a pretty international team and fortunately for us English was the common language. Our experience was waaaaaay better!
Finding Purpose and Joy: She wasn't so thrilled with work, but she believed in the company she was at and loved her co-workers. We ended up with a friend group almost immediately because of it. She had a broader community to lean on. When we arrived I went down to the local climbing gym to see if I could get a part time gig while I looked for full time work - having learned that the unemployed person has the potential to go stir crazy at home. I didn't speak Dutch so I couldn't work the desk, but because I had experience setting routes I was hired to pull routes and set. Only about 4 hours a day. It was freaking perfect. I made friends with the dutch folks that worked there. I loved the job and got even stronger at climbing. And because there is a weird cache around being the setter I found it easy to make friends with people who just came in and climbed. The weird difference is because I wasn't Dutch, I was always a little bit of an outsider in the gym - folks were nice and we were friends, but it was... different. Maybe they assumed I would leave so why invest the same time as someone with roots there, which is fair enough. Whereas with the international friends, everyone was always stoked to hang and eager to meet up.
Finding Community: Again as I've said above, we had a much stronger community and one that had formed within a month of us arriving. A pretty rare experience. The other thing I did to facilitate making friends was to get people's phone numbers aggressively - like with purpose, on a first meeting. If I enjoyed climbing with someone, or I had a great conversation with someone I'd just ask for their phone number. That way I'd always be able to hit them up. The first day climbing there I met a guy and had an amazing 4 hour climbing session with him. We were both high fiving and laughing, and at the end of the session I asked what days he climbed (without saying it so I could plan to see him again); he told me Tuesday/Thursday. I went every Tuesday and Thursday from there on and I never saw him again and always regretted not getting his number. Get numbers!
Finding a place to live: This time I was the one with time to find our apartment. We lived at a student hotel for a month as I biked around town to find our new home. Things are usually more expensive for foreigners, so use your co-workers as connections as much as possible. We both toured the place time time and absolutely loved where we live and our landlords (who lived above us). The living space was really important because I did end up spending more time at home, alone, than I had expected. But it felt like a lovely place to be. And it allowed us to host a lot as we had a backyard. It helped be a place to build our community and have friends over to. The neighborhood was also very quiet vs the busy part of Madrid we lived in so it was relaxing coming home.
TL,DR:
Outside of that - bureaucracy is a pain in the ass in every country, just get ready to jump through hoops and spend some time with Kafka.
As others have said, absolutely go for it. We still look back at that period as one of the fondest parts of our relationship. We grew so much during that period and I'd say it was foundation in who I became both in terms of interests and growth from the hard times.
I've studied abroad back in college, and spent significant amounts of time for work living in a different country and time zone (5 hours difference). I've also moved 2 time zones away in the USA to a city where I didn't know anyone for my partner's work. So not quite as dramatic as you're considering, not by a long shot. But hopefully I can help as a vague kind of mental state peer.
My biggest question is: why do you want to make such a dramatic move?
Consider the downsides, first: You'll be giving up easy contact, even by text and video calls, with friends and family. You won't be able to visit your favorite restaurants and parks and shops. Your life will include SIGNIFICANT amounts of travel, expenses, and faffery for any life events that friends and family have. Funerals, births, birthday parties, holiday parties, etc.
Only once you've really deeply considered those downsides should you take a look at the upsides. When we moved across the USA, i enjoyed embracing the change of lifestyle. I started to bike and spend time outside in ways I never did before. I got TAN! We made friends like I'd never made before, except perhaps college. We went on adventures. We took a lot of really cool pictures and made some great memories. Our hobbies really took off.
But then get back to the abstract reasons you're considering this move. Recently, I stopped considering an even more dramatic move for work. I was ultimately looking for a solution to global problems: walkability, car culture, lack of community, crime, etc. But as I've since learned, even when moving to another country, you'll never fully escape these systemic issues. The best you can do is trade them off for a different set of systemic issues that won't start to truly bother you during the "honeymoon phase". But you will eventually get annoyed with them, and you'll have to figure out a coping mechanism... unless you want to move again and artificially extend the "honeymoon phase".
If you're really truly convinced that the grass is greener, consider a lengthy vacation of a couple of weeks or so to the place you're considering. Ideally at a crappy time of year. Try working remotely if you can, to really simulate your potential lifestyle. If you're still interested after a couple of weeks of 9-5 lifestyle and grocery shopping and weekend traveling and isolation from friends and family and known places, it's probably a good move.
Regardless, if you're ready for an adventure, I say go for it. But don't think it'll make your life better. Just different. If you feel stuck in your life now and want a fresh start, it can't hurt. This sort of move certainly helped me grow out of a rut. Just make sure you get the company to pay for most (hopefully all) of it -- visas and international flights can really rack up the expenses fast, especially if you need to fly back and forth to get documents signed physically as part of the typical Kafkaesque government nightmare.
Very good overview. Add to that climate. Australia is a lot hotter than Denmark overall. I tell folks looking to move to South Carolina form up north to visit for a week in the summer and see if they still like it. My move was a lot easier because I grew up in Virginia, and was used to heat and humidity already.
@anbe, would you be prepared for 30-35 C weather, potentially for weeks at a time?
Unfortunately weather in that range is getting relatively common even in Northern Europe these days. My big question as someone who has lived in both the US and Europe would be how common air conditioning (alongside other techniques like how housing is built) is in Australia. 35⁰C is significantly less bearable without that.
Air conditioning is pretty common in Australia given the climate. That said there's no guarantee, some cheaper or older places may not have it.
House construction standards can vary a fair bit. I will say compared to areas like northern Europe we are abysmal at constructing for cold weather conditions. I've met a bunch of people who have emigrated from much colder climates who complain that our relatively mild winters are much more miserable because our houses aren't built to retain heat as effectively.
I've moved around a lot. Honestly, it's hard to give advice to someone you don't know. @DynamoSunshirt gave some really solid general advice, but moving abroad is just one of those things that suits some people and is a bad idea for others. So much depends on your current situation and where you going to. And you just can't generalize about a country either. A lot can depend on where in the country you end up. That said, I can give you some things to think about, which might not be so obvious:
Many people are unprepared for how hard nostalgia can strike. Our brains are hardwired to paint a rosy picture of our past lives (except for traumatic events obviously). The things that you perhaps take for granted now often become something you really miss when you're away from them. Even if you think you're prepared, you'll still be surprised what you end up missing.
Beware the grass is greener syndrome. The new country will have tons of its own problems. You won't know about them much until you've lived them. Some of the problems will be the same as your current ones (e.g. house prices), while others will be brand new. But they will be there. What you're looking for is an overall better experience, but it's unlikely to be a massive change for the positive.
Depending on the type of person you are, it can be hard to make really good friends at your life stage. You might always feel a bit of a foreigner. Often the people you seek out and become friends with are fellow ex-pats and immigrants. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but making true friends with the "locals" is often harder than you think, especially when they already have an established group.
Australia and New Zealand really are on the other side of the world. I lived in NZ for a while and I was shocked how isolated I felt. Europe and N.America seem like a million miles away. This can be a good thing of course, but I did gradually start to feel too isolated. Your mileage may vary, especially if you travel back a lot.
I think if it's more of the "pull" factors that appeal to you (Australia beckoning) rather than "push" factors (not happy with Denmark), then that's a good sign. If it's the push factors that are having more influence, you might want to look at those more closely to see if you will actually be leaving them behind. For example, if you haven't got many friends where you are, you won't necessarily find it easier to make friends where you're going. I'm not saying that applies to you, just an example!
Despite all these cautionary points, I personally think going abroad is one of the best things you can do. It's invaluable for your personal growth and getting a new perspective on the world. And you often have experiences, friendships and moments you'll cherish forever. I think everyone should do it, as long as they know what they're getting into and aren't under illusions about what to expect. Let me know if you have any specific questions!
Lots of advice in here from the parents’ point of view. I just want to add something as someone who’s been in the child’s perspective in this situation: consider the families you and your wife have. Are they great? Are they terrible? Do you have many family members or barely any family at all? Are they all in Denmark or do they live all over the world?
I was five when my parents did pretty much exactly what you described (different countries though, but still opposite sides of the globe). My mom's company was opening up a new store in a different country, so they took the opportunity and moved with me there, and we’ve lived here ever since, just me and my parents. Literally every other member of my family lives in our home city, and always have.
I am immensely thankful to my parents for the opportunity they gave me, but that’s now as an adult, where I can see and appreciate the tremendous hard work they overcame to give the three of us a better life. As a kid though, I was a bit disgruntled about it. I didn’t resent them or anything, they were and continue to be terrific parents, but I was sad to not be seeing my cousins and grandparents as often as I would like. We’d still go back every year, so I got to see them plenty, but only in short bursts and I never really felt like I connected with them as much as my cousins connected with one another. I was always self conscious speaking my native tongue with them because I knew my grammar wasn’t great.
I just recently went back for the first time in like 9 years, got to meet a bunch of younger family members that I hadn’t met before, plus seeing all the rest of the family. And it made me a bit sad again that I don’t really know much about their day-to-day lives. I’m sure I could have done a better job of keeping in touch, but as a kid I didn’t enjoy writing letters and phone calls were mainly just with my grandpa.
I’m not saying not to do it. My two cents would be that if you do go, just be conscious of the relationship your daughter has with your families back home. Technology now is much better than when I was a kid, specifically video calls and group chats, so that will definitely help. But maybe consider classes in your native tongue for your daughter and really making sure to encourage video calls with the family back home.
Good luck! I’m sure whatever you choose will work out because the fact that you’re asking for advice here means you’re the type of person to think things through carefully :)
Me my, wife, and our two oldest kids decided toove from Sweden to New Zealand ten years ago (wild that it has been that long). Both me and my wife had been there before, me doing the backpacker thing back in 2000 and she had studied there during high school. This meant we did have some social connections there which was very nice and gave us a bit of a boost socially when arriving there. We went into this as a adventure not really planning to migrate permanently. We knew we would likely head back after a while. I can recommend having this mindset going in (unless you are planning to actually migrate) because it made it easier for me to face challenges and setbacks since I was doing it for the experience.
It was hardest for the kids initially. They were quite verbal early on and all of a sudden they couldn't understand anyone at school/kindergarten. I do believe they've benefitted from the experience immensely. At a minimum their English was way ahead of their peers when we got back, but more nebulous is the confidence they've gotten from doing something where the outcome is uncertain.
One of the main obstacles going to NZ was actually getting the visa and finding a job. Since your looking at doing this via your company they probably will help you sort those things out. I mention this because I imagine you've already decided to go :) that is you've imagined moving there and how life would be. So what would you do if the company picked someone else? Would you try to go anyway? In that case be prepared for paperwork galore! Hopefully you can skip the majority of that uncertainty by get the opportunity via your company.
On a more practical level; moving is super expensive. Make sure the company at least gives you some reimbursement for relocation costs. There's lots of little things like cutlery and the odd bits and bobs that when added together becomes a sizeable amount. Then there's finding a place. Others have mentioned some of the places having a high cost of living. We ended up renting a flat in a very pricey neighborhood, but living quite frugally otherwise.
In my view moving to another culturally similar country isn't all that different from moving to a new city (a part from the obvious things like being further away from family, not knowing the local cultural references etc). Find a hobby club to join to meet new people. Invite people you meet to join you on various outings (be ok with being rejected, they've got their own lives). Join social events at your company. Be prepared that it may take a while to find friends and build a new social network. This means that once the initial novelty of moving wears off it might be a bit lonely...
In the end we decided to move back after little more than a year mainly because we got pregnant while there and wanted to have the kid back home.
All in all it was a great experience. Hard at times, but lots of sweet memories too.
I immigrated to Australia (from the US) in 2012, and I have gotten know quite a few immigrants from Europe. Do you know which city or town the office would be opened in? Your experiences may vary depending on where you move.
As a general rule, Australia has a very large immigrant population; approximately 25% of Australian residents were born overseas, so this is very well-trodden ground. It is also my experience that first-generation immigrants, regardless of country of origin, feel a strong connection to each other and will readily help each other navigate the system.
Most local Australians are also used to immigrants and are generally very accepting. Australia has extremely high election participation rates, so the high rate of immigration is a reflection of the people's generally welcoming attitude toward immigrants. Mind you, xenophobia certainly does exist and anti-immigrant Australians can be a lot more blunt than you may be used to, but it's usually directed at the most common nationalities (Indians, Chinese, Americans, Brits, and handful of others). As a Danish person, you would likely encounter very little of this, so don't let it deter you.
I don't know how these issues compare to Denmark, but there are a few other things to be aware of: