Has any former president (or even vice president) even come close to this kind of legal jeopardy? And half the country still think it’s the best we can do for a leader…
The Republican front-runner faces 91 felony counts across two federal cases and two state cases for allegedly conspiring to overturn the 2020 election, falsifying business records and storing hundreds of classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago estate after leaving the White House in 2021.
He also faces several civil lawsuits that further complicate his 2024 calendar and will require him to sacrifice his time on the campaign trail to appear in court.
Has any former president (or even vice president) even come close to this kind of legal jeopardy?
And half the country still think it’s the best we can do for a leader…
I honestly think the cultists are less than half at this point. He has been so loud and so embarassing/disturbing in such a wide variety of ways that I doubt all registered republicans are in his...
I honestly think the cultists are less than half at this point. He has been so loud and so embarassing/disturbing in such a wide variety of ways that I doubt all registered republicans are in his corner anymore. They might not say it in public or to a pollster. Swing states are won by coalitions. and by enthusiastic turnout
My parents are life-long republicans, and they are the ones who say they hate big T but would vote for him without question if he was the nominee because anything is better than a Democrat. It's...
My parents are life-long republicans, and they are the ones who say they hate big T but would vote for him without question if he was the nominee because anything is better than a Democrat. It's sad, but I think (at least around me) it's more about the "team" than the "quarterback" for most people, so even if they aren't one of the die-hards, he still gets support simply for having an R next to his name
I live in a country where we have proportional representation and multiple political parties. I used to criticize it because it often produces weak governments that are basically the lowest common...
My parents are life-long republicans, and they are the ones who say they hate big T but would vote for him without question if he was the nominee because anything is better than a Democrat.
I live in a country where we have proportional representation and multiple political parties. I used to criticize it because it often produces weak governments that are basically the lowest common denominator of three or four or more* different parties that have to rule together and compromise. After years of observing the US, I changed my mind. Our system is much more "fluid" than the winner-take-all systems - new parties form easily (they just need to get at least 5% of votes to get to the parliament; imagine if those Republicans who are not happy about Trump could "fork" a new party without fear of losing access to power). Those "us vs. them" teams reset every few years and people do not identify strongly with who they voted for - it seems like a good thing.
* currently 7 parties in the parliament, 5 form government, 2 are in opposition.
I shudder to think of what a republican would have to do to get these die-hards to vote Democrat. I mean they'd probably sooner just not vote, but there has to be a line, and I'm morbidly curious
I shudder to think of what a republican would have to do to get these die-hards to vote Democrat. I mean they'd probably sooner just not vote, but there has to be a line, and I'm morbidly curious
I’m curious what they blame Biden for that makes him unelectable. Trump caused so many deaths from what he said about covid - and then he tried to overthrow the government. So he’s kinda...
I’m curious what they blame Biden for that makes him unelectable. Trump caused so many deaths from what he said about covid - and then he tried to overthrow the government. So he’s kinda unelectable in my book.
That's the thing, they don't even know. They hear things from their friends or Facebook and just assume it's reality. They think he's giving all their money away to spoiled liberals (student debt...
That's the thing, they don't even know. They hear things from their friends or Facebook and just assume it's reality. They think he's giving all their money away to spoiled liberals (student debt forgiveness is the hot topic there), he's making gas prices crazy because he didn't allow pipeline construction, somehow the result of covid on the global economy is his fault, I could go on forever. They do not know details of any of this, they just make logical bridges in their heads that make sense to them even if the truth invalidates them.
I've tried arguing, I've tried reasoning, they don't listen. I have decided that since my two brothers and I make up more votes than they do, we cancel them out so that's about all I can hope for at this point.
What's the old phrase? "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't get themselves into?" We have similar issues with Brexit / Conservatives in the UK.
What's the old phrase?
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't get themselves into?"
We have similar issues with Brexit / Conservatives in the UK.
Yeah it’s this combined with “a lie has made it half way around the world before the truth has put on its trousers” What we learned in the last decade was that with hyper information transmission,...
Yeah it’s this combined with “a lie has made it half way around the world before the truth has put on its trousers”
What we learned in the last decade was that with hyper information transmission, it’s an order of magnitude harder to convince someone they’ve been lied to, than it it is to get them to believe a lie in the first place.
Aye. I think the only way we're going to actually tackle a lot of these issues, is by getting ourselves (collectively) more mentally healthy and acknowledging some of this exists.
Aye.
I think the only way we're going to actually tackle a lot of these issues, is by getting ourselves (collectively) more mentally healthy and acknowledging some of this exists.
This, right here. My parents would absolutely do the same, in spite of a general distaste for the person, they'll fall right in line when push comes to shove.
This, right here. My parents would absolutely do the same, in spite of a general distaste for the person, they'll fall right in line when push comes to shove.
My rough take on these- The election clause: Obviously if trump wins the election I expect him to pardon and disrupt all of these to the point of making all of it pointless. I don't expect the...
My rough take on these-
The election clause: Obviously if trump wins the election I expect him to pardon and disrupt all of these to the point of making all of it pointless. I don't expect the majority of these cases to come anywhere close to conclusion before the election happens.
Inflated worth case/E. Jean Carrol Civil Case/Pyramid Scheme Civil Case:
Probably loses, but it won't matter.
2020 election interference:
Obviously extremely important. Hard to call. I think there's 100% a rock case here but there's a ton of implication behind this.
New York falsifying business records:
I think he might actually win this, or have it dismissed, and think it's the only one that might resolve BEFORE the election because of this. This case is one of the dumbest grandstanding examples I've ever seen, and could be one of the key things that helps him win re-election.
Classified documents:
Certain he loses this one. The only question is how much it will matter. It SHOULD crush him (we need to start holding all elected officials responsible for the sensitive information they receive, regardless of party, position, or excuse), but i'm pretty jaded on such standards.
Georgia election interference:
Another "not sure". While I think any many ways it's a slam dunk case, it's also RICO, and rico is always tricky.
Georgia is interesting because a federal official like a president can't pardon state crimes. Georgia also has extremely restrictive rules around pardon for felonies. The Georgia governor has no...
Georgia is interesting because a federal official like a president can't pardon state crimes. Georgia also has extremely restrictive rules around pardon for felonies. The Georgia governor has no pardon power.
The New York judge granted summary judgement on the issue of whether Trump committed fraud. The remaining trial is about damages. An appeals court could overturn the summary judgement but if they don't, Trump is on the hook. This also sets up Trump for being sued by the banks who received the falsified loan applications.
Sure, but ultimately I expect the payments to never actually get paid, and "taking his money" isn't really going to affect him, hence why it's in the "will lose, doesn't matter" pile
Sure, but ultimately I expect the payments to never actually get paid, and "taking his money" isn't really going to affect him, hence why it's in the "will lose, doesn't matter" pile
His businesses are in receivership thanks to the order in this case. He might not live long enough to see the end of the appeals process but fines and penalties will be assessed and collected...
His businesses are in receivership thanks to the order in this case. He might not live long enough to see the end of the appeals process but fines and penalties will be assessed and collected before anything is returned to the control of him or his sons.
Have you never known anyone who experienced being garnished? In certain circumstances, whether you pay or not is no longer your choice to make.
Again, it will be years if not decades of court fighting, and yes they'll get their money, but in the scheme of things it will functionally not affect trump personally. I'm well aware the...
Again, it will be years if not decades of court fighting, and yes they'll get their money, but in the scheme of things it will functionally not affect trump personally.
I'm well aware the government can get it's money by whatever means necessary once it has a court judgement, but the Trump family (as this is clearly going to go on beyond his lifespan) still has enough resources to drag this out.
People have been imprisoned and executed under the Espionage Act for less than he did. If he doesn't get life in prison, there's no justice. Hell, in the last few years someone got five years for...
Classified documents:
Certain he loses this one. The only question is how much it will matter. It SHOULD crush him
People have been imprisoned and executed under the Espionage Act for less than he did. If he doesn't get life in prison, there's no justice.
Hell, in the last few years someone got five years for leaking a single intelligence report about Russia's interference in the 2016 election to the media. Meanwhile, Trump had a bathroom full of boxes of classified documents and very incriminating circumstances.
He already lost the case, essentially. The judge made a summary judgement that found him guilty.
New York falsifying business records:
I think he might actually win this, or have it dismissed, and think it's the only one that might resolve BEFORE the election because of this. This case is one of the dumbest grandstanding examples I've ever seen, and could be one of the key things that helps him win re-election.
I think we will need a mega thread for all the Trump posts that are incomming. I am including this article here and in the weekly US politics and news thread to avoid spaming this site with too...
I think we will need a mega thread for all the Trump posts that are incomming.
I am including this article here and in the weekly US politics and news thread to avoid spaming this site with too many trump articles.
There is an interesting lens on why things didn't happen, then are suddenly moving so fast...
The evidence has always been there, and some intrepid prosecutor could have taken this on much earlier. But these kinds of complex business crimes require a large amount of resources and expertise to investigate. The investigative journalists and forensic accounting experts deserve much credit for going through the laborious process of reviewing all the Trump Organization's public filings and tax returns. Then, when the banks were forced to turn over the loan applications from Trump to the attorney general, the New York County district attorney and others, the floodgates were opened. It was no longer just a question of tax fraud, since there was also evidence of substantial banking fraud. Things went downhill pretty fast for Trump after that.
Trump then shot himself in the foot by announcing that he was running for president. The following day a special counsel was appointed, and the rest is history. A real professional prosecutor went to work on Trump; there were no political prevarications.
The congressional hearings and investigation of Jan. 6 were also very helpful. The select committee report really was a blueprint for at least one of the criminal indictments of Trump.
I read the headlines once a day and maybe 1-2 articles. I could not keep his court cases straight. This article is seriously useful. Thank you for posting it.
I read the headlines once a day and maybe 1-2 articles.
Has any former president (or even vice president) even come close to this kind of legal jeopardy?
And half the country still think it’s the best we can do for a leader…
I honestly think the cultists are less than half at this point. He has been so loud and so embarassing/disturbing in such a wide variety of ways that I doubt all registered republicans are in his corner anymore. They might not say it in public or to a pollster. Swing states are won by coalitions. and by enthusiastic turnout
My parents are life-long republicans, and they are the ones who say they hate big T but would vote for him without question if he was the nominee because anything is better than a Democrat. It's sad, but I think (at least around me) it's more about the "team" than the "quarterback" for most people, so even if they aren't one of the die-hards, he still gets support simply for having an R next to his name
I live in a country where we have proportional representation and multiple political parties. I used to criticize it because it often produces weak governments that are basically the lowest common denominator of three or four or more* different parties that have to rule together and compromise. After years of observing the US, I changed my mind. Our system is much more "fluid" than the winner-take-all systems - new parties form easily (they just need to get at least 5% of votes to get to the parliament; imagine if those Republicans who are not happy about Trump could "fork" a new party without fear of losing access to power). Those "us vs. them" teams reset every few years and people do not identify strongly with who they voted for - it seems like a good thing.
* currently 7 parties in the parliament, 5 form government, 2 are in opposition.
I shudder to think of what a republican would have to do to get these die-hards to vote Democrat. I mean they'd probably sooner just not vote, but there has to be a line, and I'm morbidly curious
My experience living in a relatively red state has been that most would rather just not vote than vote for the opposite party.
If they decide not to vote it's at least half as good!
I’m curious what they blame Biden for that makes him unelectable. Trump caused so many deaths from what he said about covid - and then he tried to overthrow the government. So he’s kinda unelectable in my book.
That's the thing, they don't even know. They hear things from their friends or Facebook and just assume it's reality. They think he's giving all their money away to spoiled liberals (student debt forgiveness is the hot topic there), he's making gas prices crazy because he didn't allow pipeline construction, somehow the result of covid on the global economy is his fault, I could go on forever. They do not know details of any of this, they just make logical bridges in their heads that make sense to them even if the truth invalidates them.
I've tried arguing, I've tried reasoning, they don't listen. I have decided that since my two brothers and I make up more votes than they do, we cancel them out so that's about all I can hope for at this point.
What's the old phrase?
"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't get themselves into?"
We have similar issues with Brexit / Conservatives in the UK.
Yeah it’s this combined with “a lie has made it half way around the world before the truth has put on its trousers”
What we learned in the last decade was that with hyper information transmission, it’s an order of magnitude harder to convince someone they’ve been lied to, than it it is to get them to believe a lie in the first place.
Confirmation bias and ego are intoxicating.
Aye.
I think the only way we're going to actually tackle a lot of these issues, is by getting ourselves (collectively) more mentally healthy and acknowledging some of this exists.
“You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into”
This, right here. My parents would absolutely do the same, in spite of a general distaste for the person, they'll fall right in line when push comes to shove.
My rough take on these-
The election clause: Obviously if trump wins the election I expect him to pardon and disrupt all of these to the point of making all of it pointless. I don't expect the majority of these cases to come anywhere close to conclusion before the election happens.
Inflated worth case/E. Jean Carrol Civil Case/Pyramid Scheme Civil Case:
Probably loses, but it won't matter.
2020 election interference:
Obviously extremely important. Hard to call. I think there's 100% a rock case here but there's a ton of implication behind this.
New York falsifying business records:
I think he might actually win this, or have it dismissed, and think it's the only one that might resolve BEFORE the election because of this. This case is one of the dumbest grandstanding examples I've ever seen, and could be one of the key things that helps him win re-election.
Classified documents:
Certain he loses this one. The only question is how much it will matter. It SHOULD crush him (we need to start holding all elected officials responsible for the sensitive information they receive, regardless of party, position, or excuse), but i'm pretty jaded on such standards.
Georgia election interference:
Another "not sure". While I think any many ways it's a slam dunk case, it's also RICO, and rico is always tricky.
Georgia is interesting because a federal official like a president can't pardon state crimes. Georgia also has extremely restrictive rules around pardon for felonies. The Georgia governor has no pardon power.
The New York judge granted summary judgement on the issue of whether Trump committed fraud. The remaining trial is about damages. An appeals court could overturn the summary judgement but if they don't, Trump is on the hook. This also sets up Trump for being sued by the banks who received the falsified loan applications.
Sure, but ultimately I expect the payments to never actually get paid, and "taking his money" isn't really going to affect him, hence why it's in the "will lose, doesn't matter" pile
His businesses are in receivership thanks to the order in this case. He might not live long enough to see the end of the appeals process but fines and penalties will be assessed and collected before anything is returned to the control of him or his sons.
Have you never known anyone who experienced being garnished? In certain circumstances, whether you pay or not is no longer your choice to make.
Again, it will be years if not decades of court fighting, and yes they'll get their money, but in the scheme of things it will functionally not affect trump personally.
I'm well aware the government can get it's money by whatever means necessary once it has a court judgement, but the Trump family (as this is clearly going to go on beyond his lifespan) still has enough resources to drag this out.
People have been imprisoned and executed under the Espionage Act for less than he did. If he doesn't get life in prison, there's no justice.
Hell, in the last few years someone got five years for leaking a single intelligence report about Russia's interference in the 2016 election to the media. Meanwhile, Trump had a bathroom full of boxes of classified documents and very incriminating circumstances.
He already lost the case, essentially. The judge made a summary judgement that found him guilty.
Your link is talking about the inflated business assets case, not the falsifying business records case
I think the summary judgement was only with respect to part of the case. Still, it doesn't look good for him.
I think we will need a mega thread for all the Trump posts that are incomming.
I am including this article here and in the weekly US politics and news thread to avoid spaming this site with too many trump articles.
"The Trump empire ... will fold like a stack of cards," says former prosecutor
There is an interesting lens on why things didn't happen, then are suddenly moving so fast...
Since this article in the OP names all of the cases, it might be a good choice as a megathread.
I read the headlines once a day and maybe 1-2 articles.
I could not keep his court cases straight.
This article is seriously useful.
Thank you for posting it.