41 votes

The decomposition of Rotten Tomatoes: The most overrated metric in movies is erratic, reductive, and easily hacked — and yet has Hollywood in its grip

17 comments

  1. [3]
    BroiledBraniac
    Link
    Rotten Tomatoes skews everything toward the mediocre. Goes back to the theme of filmmakers being afraid to take risks these days, because heaven forbid they get some sort of conflicting opinions...

    Rotten Tomatoes skews everything toward the mediocre. Goes back to the theme of filmmakers being afraid to take risks these days, because heaven forbid they get some sort of conflicting opinions on their work, it will cut the bottom line. It’s easier to make vanilla films with mass appeal.

    21 votes
    1. [2]
      ignorabimus
      Link Parent
      And even those are in trouble (see the recent flops).

      And even those are in trouble (see the recent flops).

      5 votes
      1. arqalite
        Link Parent
        I'm still pissed about Indiana Jones. The film wasn't a masterpiece, obviously, but it was fun and was a nice closure to a franchise that was part of my childhood. It didn't deserve to flop....

        I'm still pissed about Indiana Jones. The film wasn't a masterpiece, obviously, but it was fun and was a nice closure to a franchise that was part of my childhood.

        It didn't deserve to flop.

        Although, it's the final film in the franchise, we won't see more of it (nor do we want to, good things must come to an end) and a $100 million loss to Disney is basically McDonalds' money for them.

        Hopefully now that it hit streaming and digital media, people who were unsure about it can give it a try.

        3 votes
  2. [2]
    Earthboom
    (edited )
    Link
    A very good read, but I take something else away from it that doesn't just affect movies. I forget if I was in a discussion with people on here or on reddit about popular media and the ratings...

    A very good read, but I take something else away from it that doesn't just affect movies. I forget if I was in a discussion with people on here or on reddit about popular media and the ratings they get, but one stance I've taken in response to things like Rotten Tomatoes, which, by the way, is only one head of a giant hydra, is the age of earnest, nuanced, and critical views to give readers an informed opinion to help them make a decision, is over. Or at least buried underground, and in my opinion it's done because critics hurt media producers. They are an effective check on content producers by threatening a negative review which will drive sales away. They're needed and do a public service, but to be a good critic you need to be anonymous and need to have integrity and good character, otherwise you become a weapon for the content producer.

    Whats happened is, like everything else, the counter balance of criticism has become controlled for a profit. Rather than roll the dice, or God forbid actually become masterful at your craft, it's easier to buy the ticket master, the review aggregate, and control the entire process from start to finish. The end result is trash is rated highly and the part that burns me is the viewers actively defend the trash they love and support. This lowers the bar for quality for everyone else and tells the producers they can continue churning out trash and make things of less quality and it'll continue to be bought. This has affected the movie industry and it has also affected the gaming industry but gamers are very much in denial.

    This was the argument. Baldur's Gate 3 was panned by metacritic, which is touted as being better than ign and rotten tomatoes, but if all reviewers across all publications are controlled, metacritic just shows you trash, trash in, trash out, as having a 97% with mobs of fans fervorously defending that 97% for a bunch of reasons.

    But let's stop to take a look at what that number says. It says everyone everywhere that metacritic touches agrees that game is either flawless or close to it. Flawless. Really? It's flawless? I haven't seen a flawless game since maybe pong, pacman, tetris, because those games are simple enough to be flawless. Everything else that's even slightly more complex has flaws by sheer nature of complexity. All programs have bugs, Baldur's Gate 3 is no different with thousands of bugs fixed every subsequent patch since release. That very fact alone shows the game was not released in a complete fashion. There's bugs ranging from benign to moderate to game breaking.

    But let's say we forgive the bugs, we shouldn't, that 97% is also implying all other aspects of the game could use no improvement. The UI, controller scheme, settings, performance, combat, atmosphere, writing, score, are all near or are flawless.

    That's simply not true. It's a good game but simply not true. The UI and inventory is acknowledged as being a mess yet it got a 97%. The writing has been both amazing and silly or clunky at times, and it holds a near flawless score.

    But gamers are the ones that defend the number. The studio gets to sit back and collect the good PR.

    Another game that was buggy, performed poorly, and was memed was The Witcher 3. The zealous fanbase themselves got memed for how often they'd talk about the game as if it was life changing and flawless. Only now can a nuanced opinion be given about the game without fans suddenly appearing to defend it.

    Like the directors the article has mentioned, I've stopped reading reviews for movies and carefully read headlines for games only looking for keywords on performance and stability. Anything else is corrupt and only serves to get in my pocket.

    Quality took a nose dive and people celebrate it. That's what I take issue with.

    In movies it's especially bad with the Hollywood machine churning out math approved formulaic movies that are guaranteed to get a certain ROI. Which is insane. They've made a formula for art to a certain level of accuracy that guarantees sales and likes. Insane.

    Triple A game developers are attempting the same thing to some degree of success with resistance from gamers and some review publications but they're making headway as quality has gone down, games arrive in a broken fashion, and gamers defend it. Eg. Anything Bethesda makes.

    We can shift over to books and see the same thing. Books are bought and sold on the New York Time's best seller and the Oprah Reading List and how books get on there range for all sorts of reasons but seldom is it because of the art of writing. Often times it's because of the message or politics.

    Lastly, because I'm still on one, it's clear that because we're having conversations on ratings that consumers still need them! They want to avoid garbage so bad they seek reviews to help them but due to the corrupt nature of the review system, they get fed garbage anyway and then like it.

    Something in the article stuck with me and that's the line about the adventurous consumer. No such thing. We're all coddled and comfortable and don't want to be disturbed or negatively surprised. So instead of taking a chance on a movie to decide for ourselves, we'll blindly trust rotten tomatoes to steer us into profit and away from thought provoking movies.

    6 votes
    1. 0xSim
      Link Parent
      There's an independent French magazine (JV) that decided a few years ago to stop giving ratings to games. High profile games are tested by 2-3 reviewers, and they all give their (sometimes...

      There's an independent French magazine (JV) that decided a few years ago to stop giving ratings to games. High profile games are tested by 2-3 reviewers, and they all give their (sometimes different) opinion. No rating, except a little icon that says disliked/liked/loved.

      Ratings are meaningless for games, and I'd say that ultimately they hurt the medium as a whole, but like you said, people need them. Or they think they need them? You can't summarize a product that took 5+ years to make and 300h to experience as a whole with a 1-100 rating. That's ridiculous.

      2 votes
  3. [11]
    BlindCarpenter
    Link
    I haven't read the article, but is there a more well-regarded movie review site?

    I haven't read the article, but is there a more well-regarded movie review site?

    4 votes
    1. [5]
      cloud_loud
      Link Parent
      I prefer Metacritic and I’ve preferred it for a few years now. It’s also considered the gold standard for critical reception in movie awards communities online. A problem I had with RottenTomatoes...

      I prefer Metacritic and I’ve preferred it for a few years now. It’s also considered the gold standard for critical reception in movie awards communities online.

      A problem I had with RottenTomatoes is that in the past five years they lowered the qualifications to be a certified reviewer. So we ended up getting a lot of blogs no one reads with names like “Bob Goes to the Movies” with terribly written reviews but are able to influence the tomatometer. These self published reviewers are who the article states that studios have been bribing for positive reviews.

      I abandoned RT a few years ago despite knowing and using it for years before it hit the mainstream.

      Metacritic, at the very least, only allows actual publications and weighs its score so that reviews from more serious publications (e.g NYTimes) affects the score more than from less serious publications (e.g IGN). Metacritic also doesn’t let modern reviews affect the score of movies from years ago. So the score you get is the accurate representation of critical reception of a movie at the time. As opposed to the ever changing tomatometer (Green Book was in the 80s on RT before it went down after it won Best Picture all these years later).

      15 votes
      1. [3]
        TumblingTurquoise
        Link Parent
        My problem with Metacritic started when I was watching videogame reviews, and found out that different reviewers had different methodologies for calculating scores. Some would rate a game as 7,...

        My problem with Metacritic started when I was watching videogame reviews, and found out that different reviewers had different methodologies for calculating scores.

        Some would rate a game as 7, meaning "a good game, worth playing, but it's not pushing the medium forward" while for others it would mean "has potential but it is a buggy mess". So how do you average scores that mean different things for different people?

        As for movies, I enjoy rotten tomatoes because of the snippets from the reviews. If I see aspects of filmaking that I care about mentioned in a positive way, I am more inclined to give the movie a shot.

        8 votes
        1. cloud_loud
          Link Parent
          I don’t know about video games. But for movies Metacritic assigns the number value themselves. Their process is more secretive, but I believe them doing it themselves rather than letting critics...

          I don’t know about video games. But for movies Metacritic assigns the number value themselves. Their process is more secretive, but I believe them doing it themselves rather than letting critics input the score themselves, leads to more consistent criteria.

          3 votes
        2. CannibalisticApple
          Link Parent
          With games, I feel like you need to look at the reviews more directly since everyone's experiences and tastes are so different and unique. They have a lot of factors that movies don't need to...

          With games, I feel like you need to look at the reviews more directly since everyone's experiences and tastes are so different and unique. They have a lot of factors that movies don't need to worry about like gameplay, controls, hardware limitations, mechanics, difficulty, etc. So I find it's good to read first-hand perspectives of the games to get actual details rather than just the numbers.

      2. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. JakeTheDog
          Link Parent
          Personally I think a scale of 1-5 should be adopted for everything, it just makes intuitive sense: 5 - exceptional, among the best 4 - great, recommended 3 - average, can’t recommend for or...

          Personally I think a scale of 1-5 should be adopted for everything, it just makes intuitive sense:

          5 - exceptional, among the best
          4 - great, recommended
          3 - average, can’t recommend for or against
          2 - meh, not recommended
          1 - abysmal, among the worst

          In my mind, the mid-high and mid-low is necessary to keep the validity of the best/worst as outliers. But I don’t see how being any more fine grained helps in communicating nuance to others because of the subjective nature. There’s fuzziness that one can add with half points (essentially making it 1-10) but that is rarely meaningful without an in depth written review. And anyways, once you average many ratings you’ll get something more fine grained.

          4 votes
    2. [3]
      shrike
      Link Parent
      IMDB is decent if you open the detail page, ignore all 1 and 10 star reviews and check the graph then. The user base is wide enough to give a decent estimate on how actual people liked a movie....

      IMDB is decent if you open the detail page, ignore all 1 and 10 star reviews and check the graph then. The user base is wide enough to give a decent estimate on how actual people liked a movie.

      Example: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. A bunch of 10's and 1's, but there's a definite spike on 8. A decent show then.

      On the other hand Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny is a lot stabler, there aren't any brigaded 1 or 10 star votes so it's pretty accurate.

      --

      Letterboxd is more niche and mostly has film buffs and movie critics IMO. They don't tend to like the popular stuff that much. The good bit is that you can click on individual reviewers and see how they rated other movies - and through that find people with similar tastes to you so you can check their reviews.

      11 votes
      1. [2]
        AndreasChris
        Link Parent
        The Rings of Power is a curious example for IMDB, given that Amazon owns both and has been caught manipulating the scores for that very show, by removing a significant number of IMDB reviews in...

        The Rings of Power is a curious example for IMDB, given that Amazon owns both and has been caught manipulating the scores for that very show, by removing a significant number of IMDB reviews in the lower half of the spectrum (not just 1 star but up to 5 or 6), under the guise of 'fighting trolls'. It's never good to give one company control of both the film/series and its main review platform...

        5 votes
        1. shrike
          Link Parent
          They should apply the same diligence to all other media on the site. There are clear examples of brigaded votes on controversial movies. People coming in and giving masses on 1 star ratings before...

          They should apply the same diligence to all other media on the site. There are clear examples of brigaded votes on controversial movies. People coming in and giving masses on 1 star ratings before the movie is even out, for example.

    3. [2]
      smoontjes
      Link Parent
      There is also the Cinema Score which polls moviegoers on the first weekend of a movie's release and then determines a score based on that. Certainly seems a lot more trustworthy than a percentage,...

      There is also the Cinema Score which polls moviegoers on the first weekend of a movie's release and then determines a score based on that. Certainly seems a lot more trustworthy than a percentage, not to mention how unreliable some sites can be when it comes to brigading. I don't know how or if CS has weights on their polling though

      2 votes
      1. nocut12
        Link Parent
        I agree that Cinemascore is better than online sources for gauging public reaction to a movie, but I don't think it's great for recommendations. High scoring movies definitely tend to be...

        I agree that Cinemascore is better than online sources for gauging public reaction to a movie, but I don't think it's great for recommendations.

        High scoring movies definitely tend to be crowdpleasing and safe (which already isn't great for recommendations IMO...), but often movies that are extremely popular among their opening weekend target audiences aren't going to have much appeal outside of that audience. There are a lot of faith-based movies that get an A+ Cinemascore; so far this year, the only ones are "Sound of Freedom" and "Jesus Revolution." Definitely a great one to look at if you're interested in box office stuff though.

        2 votes
  4. cstby
    Link
    The author seems to miss a critical point: why is rotten tomatoes so popular with consumers? There's no shortage of review aggregators.

    The author seems to miss a critical point: why is rotten tomatoes so popular with consumers? There's no shortage of review aggregators.

    2 votes