I found this interview to be an interesting view into the delicate art of making sex-scenes on film. The role of an "intimacy coordinator" is a new thing and given some rather concerning accounts...
Safe sex scenes are now an essential part of post-#MeToo film-making – coordinator Elle McAlpine talks about the challenges of working on Yorgos Lanthimos’s fantasy drama – and being chucked off other sets
I found this interview to be an interesting view into the delicate art of making sex-scenes on film. The role of an "intimacy coordinator" is a new thing and given some rather concerning accounts from the past, one that was sorely needed. It also seems like sex on film is having a bit of comeback, despite claims in recent years that the audience has become too puritan.
I think the point of about sex scenes, necessary or otherwise, is that they're being omitted not due to filmmakers finding them irrelevant but because their inclusion makes the movie more...
I think the point of about sex scenes, necessary or otherwise, is that they're being omitted not due to filmmakers finding them irrelevant but because their inclusion makes the movie more difficult to sell thouhh rather intense violence does not. Simple nudity is so often omitted that no one blinks twice at sheets covering a woman's breasts but being pushed down to a man's waist. (This doesn't even get into how queer sex is demonstrably more censored or how male vs female pleasure is treated differently.) There are very few movies that make a point to show those intimate moments but it's not really for artistic reasons.
This is a generalisation of course but I do think European movies generally handles this better. If there is nudity, itt is more casually shown in a relaxed natural way that feels realistic to how...
This is a generalisation of course but I do think European movies generally handles this better. If there is nudity, itt is more casually shown in a relaxed natural way that feels realistic to how people would normally behave after sex. Many Hollywood movies have a more sexualised lense if they include nudity. With some exceptions of course, like that arguing scene in Before Midnight with Julie Delpy.
European movie and TV standards are definitely different. I'm not even talking about how tasteful or the artistic nature of it though you're right that how it's handled is more natural too. The...
European movie and TV standards are definitely different. I'm not even talking about how tasteful or the artistic nature of it though you're right that how it's handled is more natural too.
The prudishness of "no sex scenes ever" - even when they're very plot relevant - is much more about them being PG13 and thus marketable. NC 17 is a kiss of death and the MPAA thinks that many things are too sexy for the movie theaters. But at an R rating you can show so much gore and violence.
It's odd to think one is more appropriate for young people and to have that one be the violent murder one.
Ratings are just weird and serves wildly different purposes in each country. Just take Before Midnight which by the MPAA is rated R because Julie Delpy is topless for a few minutes. Here in...
Ratings are just weird and serves wildly different purposes in each country. Just take Before Midnight which by the MPAA is rated R because Julie Delpy is topless for a few minutes. Here in Denmark it is rated suitable for all ages because it contains no scary elements.
Absolutely, it's very culturally driven and I'm really only able to speak about the US's standards by virtue of living here. Having visited the UK and Europe, casual nudity was definitely more...
Absolutely, it's very culturally driven and I'm really only able to speak about the US's standards by virtue of living here. Having visited the UK and Europe, casual nudity was definitely more available on TV but I wasn't consuming a ton of media at the time due to being on more of a vacation.
This is definitely the case when it comes to the people making films, but I think the ratings and marketability are because of more general cultural attitudes towards sex and nudity in American...
The prudishness of "no sex scenes ever" - even when they're very plot relevant - is much more about them being PG13 and thus marketable.
This is definitely the case when it comes to the people making films, but I think the ratings and marketability are because of more general cultural attitudes towards sex and nudity in American culture. I think this permeates much deeper than just film and television but is just easier to see in film and television because we have things like ratings boards directly assessing the presence of such content.
I do think, and have seen other recent articles on, there being a pivot back to more puritanical perspectives on portrayals of sex. Even coming from asexual folks not wanting to watch it, which is...
I do think, and have seen other recent articles on, there being a pivot back to more puritanical perspectives on portrayals of sex. Even coming from asexual folks not wanting to watch it, which is reasonable but not necessarily what artistic choices should be made on across the board.
I think it's not as simple as it being the attitudes that came first. I think there's a feedback loop - the MPAA rating sexuality much more severely than violence, turns into less nudity and sexuality portrayed on movies (and TV ratings following suit), and attitudes about its inappropriateness are reinforced. It's very chicken and egg, and we could probably go back to actual Puritan times to identify a source, but I think we're locked into this cycle.
We definitely had a time of media being less puritanical, and there was clearly societal interest in it, but this country loves a good "for the children" censorship binge.
Yeah I definitely agree there's a feedback loop, but I think it's on top of the reactionary pivot towards more sexual puritanism you describe (though I don't think asexual folks are a particular...
Yeah I definitely agree there's a feedback loop, but I think it's on top of the reactionary pivot towards more sexual puritanism you describe (though I don't think asexual folks are a particular driver of them, being both a really small group relative to the general population and also even on tumblr being a largely orthogonal community from the people pushing against sexual content). I'm not quite sure we're locked in this cycle permanently though -- certainly we've still come a long way from the Hayes Code days, even with this new pivot.
I mention ace folks because I have seen that discourse from the community but I'd agree they're not driving it. I don't think it's permanent just that it's going to require more intentional effort...
I mention ace folks because I have seen that discourse from the community but I'd agree they're not driving it. I don't think it's permanent just that it's going to require more intentional effort to pull out of. Especially given the other pushes towards controlling sexuality and preventing alleged "grooming" of kids by material that is otherwise educational or just part of a story.
Oh yeah I've definitely seen that discourse online but I think it's more often using ace people as a talking point to support one's position than any actual consensus among ace people. I was more...
Oh yeah I've definitely seen that discourse online but I think it's more often using ace people as a talking point to support one's position than any actual consensus among ace people. I was more active in the ace community before this discourse took hold, but we made a point of trying to dispel the myth that being ace entailed being sex-repulsed.
I do think the other pushes towards controlling sexuality and preventing grooming are part of a similar backlash for sure though
Yeah I get that it isn't an ace consensus, but I'd seen it in queer spaces from some ace folks and thought it an interesting outlier. I know that the a-spec is broad and inclusive of a number of...
Yeah I get that it isn't an ace consensus, but I'd seen it in queer spaces from some ace folks and thought it an interesting outlier. I know that the a-spec is broad and inclusive of a number of attitudes and comfort levels towards sex.
But yes I by no means wanted to imply this was a majority opinion or major driver of the puritanism.
I often hear the claim about male vs female pleasure, but I don't really understand it. Perhaps female pleasure is shown in a potentially pornographic way, but I feel like the only depictions I...
I often hear the claim about male vs female pleasure, but I don't really understand it. Perhaps female pleasure is shown in a potentially pornographic way, but I feel like the only depictions I can recall of male "pleasure" seem to show it as shameful more than anything. Otherwise,depictions seem to differ more in line with the male gaze archetype. I feel like the most common depictions, though, are everybody rolls over, panting and smiling.
I remember getting some numbers/data from This Film Not Yet Rated (2006) which itself is dated now. I would be intrigued on the up to date numbers as I think it's accurate that we're showing even...
I remember getting some numbers/data from This Film Not Yet Rated (2006) which itself is dated now. I would be intrigued on the up to date numbers as I think it's accurate that we're showing even less sex than we used to. Because that keeps it PG 13. But even thinking about R ratings it seems less - I also don't watch nearly as many movies as I used to so I know my experience isn't good data.
Because some of us don't want to see too much graphic sex or violence on screen. How can these parents be boasting about their child watching an HBO show "all the time"? We are what we eat, and we...
Lanthimos has said he has “never understood the prudishness” about sex on film, especially given the relatively laissez-faire attitude to depictions of violence, even for younger audiences. Even sexual violence, McAlpine adds: “We’re much more willing to watch rape than we are a fully consensual, slightly off-the-beaten-track sexual scene. What does that say?”
Because some of us don't want to see too much graphic sex or violence on screen.
McAlpine laughs to recall an early conversation with the youngest boy’s parents, briefing them exactly on the scene: “They were like, ‘Oh, he watches Game of Thrones all the time, so that’s fine’.”
How can these parents be boasting about their child watching an HBO show "all the time"?
We are what we eat, and we are also what we consume with our eyes and ears. Some things should be enjoyed in limited settings in limited quantities by persons with the right amount of maturity. It's great for sex and violence on screen to exist because they're important parts of the human experience. But I do lament that they have become far too commonplace and normalised.
It's like visiting a restaurant and everything is covered with a mountain or powered sugar with an overuse of salt.
...I mean, this is not really a solid response to the bit you quoted. Lanthimos is pointing out that culturally (in the US -- this is VERY different in Europe!) people are more willing to watch...
Because some of us don't want to see too much graphic sex or violence on screen.
...I mean, this is not really a solid response to the bit you quoted. Lanthimos is pointing out that culturally (in the US -- this is VERY different in Europe!) people are more willing to watch graphic violence and rape scenes than these consensual sexual scenes. If it were just about people not wanting graphic sex or violence on screen, they would object to all of these things equally, rather than having such a laissez-faire attitude towards violence, including sexual violence, but a much more negative reaction to depictions of consensual sex.
I'm curious how true that statement is, personally. I don't mind a sex scene, even if I don't like it, but I am always deeply uncomfortable by any hint of sexual assault, mostly because of how...
I'm curious how true that statement is, personally. I don't mind a sex scene, even if I don't like it, but I am always deeply uncomfortable by any hint of sexual assault, mostly because of how many stories seem to have it just for the sake of it (though this is more a problem in books than movies).
I think it would be more truthful if he left "rape scene" out of it. We've been desintesized about violence on movies, but I don't think rape is included in there. There is a limit I think. We can...
I think it would be more truthful if he left "rape scene" out of it.
We've been desintesized about violence on movies, but I don't think rape is included in there. There is a limit I think.
We can watch things like Game of Thrones, Kill Bill, whatever, but it is very different than watching very graphical stuff like Irreversible or Martyrs.
I am very happy that we seem to approach this with more awareness and respect now. Older movies had them in such frequency and played off like nothing, it's good to see the change. Heck, we...
I am very happy that we seem to approach this with more awareness and respect now. Older movies had them in such frequency and played off like nothing, it's good to see the change. Heck, we observed the change during the run of How I Met Your Mother.
Oh I definitely agree with you in terms of my preferences, but I don't think US culture more generally necessarily follows that (and I especially don't think the ratings system does).
Oh I definitely agree with you in terms of my preferences, but I don't think US culture more generally necessarily follows that (and I especially don't think the ratings system does).
It seems pretty obvious to me why we would show fewer sex scenes. They're a waste of runtime. I have very rarely felt that a sex scene actively contributed to a movie in a way that implying what...
It seems pretty obvious to me why we would show fewer sex scenes. They're a waste of runtime. I have very rarely felt that a sex scene actively contributed to a movie in a way that implying what happened couldn't have accomplished the same thing without wasting a few minutes. Killing, on the other hand, usually actively moves the plot or story forward and usually takes almost no time. It can often become gratuitous, much like sex scenes can, but at least it isn't exploiting any actors to achieve that.
That is just because they don't know how to write motivation into fighting anymore. Movie combat is only good when you're invested in it. I never heard a complaint about Crouching Tiger, Hidden...
That is just because they don't know how to write motivation into fighting anymore. Movie combat is only good when you're invested in it. I never heard a complaint about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon having too much fighting. Or the first Matrix. Or Rocky. Because in those movies every fight means something.
Well, I for one dislike the waste of screen time dedicated to chase scenes and shoot em up scenes, as much as the sex. But yes there's definitely a double standard and it shouldn't be that way
Well, I for one dislike the waste of screen time dedicated to chase scenes and shoot em up scenes, as much as the sex.
But yes there's definitely a double standard and it shouldn't be that way
At least with Poor Things, it would have been a substantial different film if the sex scenes were only implied. I still think they got a bit tedious, but that is another matter.
At least with Poor Things, it would have been a substantial different film if the sex scenes were only implied. I still think they got a bit tedious, but that is another matter.
Right?? I feel like I'm an alien minority in this, but even a black screen with "A [verbed] B" would suffice to move the story along. If you need show don't tell to add nuance, off the top of my...
Right??
I feel like I'm an alien minority in this, but even a black screen with "A [verbed] B" would suffice to move the story along.
If you need show don't tell to add nuance, off the top of my head I can think of three intimacy portrayals outside of the bedroom that are more intimate than the best sex scene:
Wuthering Heights:
Catherine's "Love Heathcliff? I am Heathcliff" speech ‘… My great miseries in this world have been Heathcliff’s miseries, and I watched and felt each from the beginning: my great thought in living is himself. If all else perished, and he remained, I should still continue to be; and if all else remained, and he were annihilated, the universe would turn to a mighty strange: I should not seem a part of it. My love for Linton is like the foliage in the woods: time will change it, I’m well aware, as winter changes the trees. My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath: a source of little visible delight, but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He’s always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. So don’t talk of our separation again: it is impracticable;....
Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling's scene in Crazy Stupid Love, in which they intended to have a one night stand, but instead they talked all night.
Mr and Mrs Smith, where they had a gun fight in the house trying to kill each other
(okay this one is violence, domestic violence even, but it's....not....graphical violence? I guess my point is that it's a creative depiction of an intimate dance.)
I feel like sex scenes are not needed not because it should be forbidden, but because they're a lazy shorthand for "and now they're intimate" or "and now he/she has had this experience".
While there are certainly valid criticism for unnecessary sex scenes in many cases, but I would argue that a movie is more than just what "moves the story along". Movies are a visual medium and...
While there are certainly valid criticism for unnecessary sex scenes in many cases, but I would argue that a movie is more than just what "moves the story along". Movies are a visual medium and watching a movie is much more than just the story. You could reduce all movies down to just the barebones needed for that, but it would ruin everything. There are for example scenes that could just be sweeping long takes of an ocean, flying over a city or people doing not much of anything on screen. None of these add directly to the story, but can still be an important part of the whole movies aesthetics and setting the atmosphere or evoking certain emotions in the viewer. Yet, somehow it is mostly only sex scenes that get this kind of criticism that they could just be scraped and nothing will be lost.
I see you point, and I don't disagree with you nor believe they should be written out for all time everywhere.... For example I also dislike the overuse of slow mo, the overuse of close up...
I see you point, and I don't disagree with you nor believe they should be written out for all time everywhere....
For example I also dislike the overuse of slow mo, the overuse of close up reaction shots, the overuse of CG, the overuse of quick edits and the overuse of sweeping shots.
So maybe use them like salt and sugar: in context and in good amount. I'm lamenting that food has become very oversaturated with it recently and personally I'd prefer the bare minimum of X in all my food if possible, but I'm still glad they exist as an ingredient for chefs.
Are you saying that spending minutes (which can amount to a few percent of a movie's runtime) to showing characters fucking just because it's an easy way to establish a connection and lets...
Are you saying that spending minutes (which can amount to a few percent of a movie's runtime) to showing characters fucking just because it's an easy way to establish a connection and lets everybody get their rocks off is equivalent to spending 20 seconds on a shot that establishes tone and gives the audience a moment to reflect?
Why not? It can tell alot about what kind of relationship they have with how the couple behave in bed. Sex is part of human life and movies are depicting all kinds of aspects of human life, so I...
Why not? It can tell alot about what kind of relationship they have with how the couple behave in bed. Sex is part of human life and movies are depicting all kinds of aspects of human life, so I see no reason why it should be left out more or less than other aspects.
Because most movies with sex scenes don't use them as a storytelling method to show the characters' relationship. They just use it as a way to show tits and give the film sex appeal. It's how...
Because most movies with sex scenes don't use them as a storytelling method to show the characters' relationship. They just use it as a way to show tits and give the film sex appeal. It's how Portrait of a Lady on Fire could be such an incredible film while Blue is the Warmest Color made me feel dirty as though I had just watched someone's private, intimate statutory rape (Adèle was supposed to be 15 for the first, 8-minute sex scene, which included scissoring), even though both films were supposedly telling the same general story.
It is one thing to criticize individual films for doing this, but it is another thing to disregard the concept of sex scenes in general as something that doesn't add anything. I would just note...
It is one thing to criticize individual films for doing this, but it is another thing to disregard the concept of sex scenes in general as something that doesn't add anything. I would just note that director for not being good at that sort of thing, rather than avoid sex in movies entirely.
I believe you said earlier that they are a waste of time and the same could be achieved with just implying it instead? Which I just think is a weird way of looking at specific types of scenes in...
I believe you said earlier that they are a waste of time and the same could be achieved with just implying it instead? Which I just think is a weird way of looking at specific types of scenes in movies. Take car chases in action movies for example. Technically you could move the plot forward with just having an indication that a car chase happened, we really just need to know the end result. But that would in most cases be pretty weird, because car chases can be fun and exciting. Not just on their own, but because we are invested in the context of the characters and the narrative as well. I would say the same applies to a proper sex scene. Of course both car chases and sex scenes can be poorly made, but it is still mostly sex scenes that gets the notion that they are somehow unnecessary.
I said they're a waste of runtime and then said that I've seen very few movies which used them well, which means that I think they can be used well. I also think it's odd that you are comparing...
I said they're a waste of runtime and then said that I've seen very few movies which used them well, which means that I think they can be used well. I also think it's odd that you are comparing movies with sex scenes to action movies*. The whole point of action movies is the action. Movies where the entire point is sex are called pornography.
I also think that people talk about gratuitous action scenes pretty often, and if they are calling them gratuitous that is the same as saying that they were unnecessary.
Also, movies that don't show the violence are often lauded for leaving the horrors of the violence up to the viewer's imagination. The same goes for sex; people often say that things are sexier when they leave something to the imagination.
You also talked about well-made sex scenes but I'm not comparing well-made sex scenes to well-made action scenes; I think action scenes more often contribute to the director's vision for the character because all they need to convey is "yeah, this guy is cool! Look at all the cool things he can do!" Sex scenes, on the other hand, as implemented in most movies, don't contribute much to the characterization because the point of the character is not "yeah, look how cool this guy is! Look at all the fucking he does!" Again, that would usually be called pornography. Sex scenes usually appear in movies where the characters are supposed to have some semblance of healthy relationships, but the sex scenes do not contribute to those relationships in any way. Otherwise, I think they mostly appear in stupid action movies as part of a stupid romantic b-plot that nobody wants.
Action movies are more than just action scenes from start to finish. And some movies might only have one or two outright action scenes. And yes, you can watch porn just as well as you can just...
Action movies are more than just action scenes from start to finish. And some movies might only have one or two outright action scenes. And yes, you can watch porn just as well as you can just watch compilation videos of big explosions on Youtube, but that is not really the same thing, because what makes it interesting is when they are within a context of a movie with characters and a storyline you are invested in.
Also, movies that don't show the violence are often lauded for leaving the horrors of the violence up to the viewer's imagination. The same goes for sex; people often say that things are sexier when they leave something to the imagination.
Absolutely. Sometimes just hearing a gunshot can be more powerful than seeing people get shot. But in general, I think most moviewatchers want both things to exist.
Maybe we just watch different movies, because I generally don't see sex scenes as unnecessary in most cases, unless it becomes totally ridiculous like in The Handmaiden, but I also don't really keep a list of good sex scenes. They are just a part of the entire movie on the same level as every other type of scenes, many of which don't directly attribute to the plot as well, but they don't get the same level of criticism. Of the top of my mind, I could mention Happy Together by Wong-kar wai which has some sex scenes with a gay couple (so at least there isn't the "lets show some tits" motivation here) which are very important in showing what kind of relationship these two guys have.
Yes, and I maintain that most action movies don't include characters or a storyline that viewers are invested in. Most action movies will at best have characters you're interested in because...
what makes it interesting is when they are within a context of a movie with characters and a storyline you are invested in.
Yes, and I maintain that most action movies don't include characters or a storyline that viewers are invested in. Most action movies will at best have characters you're interested in because they're cool because they can do action so good. Just as many movies have completely pointless sex scenes, many movies have action sequences that don't contribute anything artistically, and those movies mostly exist as a way to convey action into my eyes, much as pancakes are often just ways to convey butter and syrup to my mouth.
That depends on the movie. Might not be invested or interested in the characters for the same reasons as a regular drama, but it still basically the same mechanism and same argument for why any...
That depends on the movie. Might not be invested or interested in the characters for the same reasons as a regular drama, but it still basically the same mechanism and same argument for why any kind of scene is worthwhile watching within the context of the movie. Can't take just that out and separate from the rest and call it porn or explosions video. Then it is a different thing entirely. But even with that way of looking at movies, I don't understand why it should make a difference. If we accept actions scenes as pointless - but still okay, why are sex scenes inherently different?
I feel like we could make the exact same complaints about most scenes of violence, but they rarely get the same negative attention. For some reason people hardly flinch when someone gets their...
I feel like we could make the exact same complaints about most scenes of violence, but they rarely get the same negative attention. For some reason people hardly flinch when someone gets their head blown off but as soon as there is a female nipple on screen everyone freaks the hell out. Movies are about more than just story beats, and scenes of violence or intimacy that do not explicitly exist just to move the plot forward still contribute a lot to the whole experience. John Wick without the unnecessary violence would be a wholly different movie, as would Eyes Wide Shut without its gratuitous sex scenes.
It's fine not to like sex scenes, or violence, in media, that's part of having personal preferences. However I think the undue negative attention sex receives boils down to the fact that America still has a puritanical streak that needs to be dealt with. I think stigmatizing sex causes far more problems than it solves, but maybe I'm biased because I grew up being indoctrinated in very American cult with very strong stigmas against sex.
Good point. Maybe we're still at the stage where filmmakers need to get it out of their system. Meanwhile British comedy regular features nudity and butts in particular and it's just fun. Other...
America still has a puritanical streak that needs to be dealt with
Good point. Maybe we're still at the stage where filmmakers need to get it out of their system. Meanwhile British comedy regular features nudity and butts in particular and it's just fun. Other European films have nudity without anyone really making a fuss. Japanese films have adults and children in baths and that's nothing to be concerned with either.
If we must go either 100% or 0%, though...with pologies to Voltaire's friend and biographer, Evelyn Beatrice Hall:
I disapprove of how much sex is in our films, but I will defend to the death their right to film it.
You know how, when you go buy bubble tea, you can specify sweetness and quantity of ice? I wish there was a way to dial down violence and sex for films for those who choose less.
How can you say everyone freaks out whenever a nipple is shown and then reference a movie that people complained wasn't sexy enough? I feel like you got close to answering the question, though....
How can you say everyone freaks out whenever a nipple is shown and then reference a movie that people complained wasn't sexy enough? I feel like you got close to answering the question, though. There are a lot more movies where the story revolved around the violence because those are easier to make, so people are just used to them. There are thousands of movies in the vein of John Wick, whereas most movies supposedly in the vein of Eyes Wide Shut are just softcore porn that enabled the director to exploit a hot, young actress, while the "psychological" side is just random twists or someone at the end announcing that they planned it all along. If there were more movies like Eyes Wide Shut, there would be more acceptance of Knock Knock, just like how movies like John Wick make it easier to accept I don't know...Knight and Day? Does that have gratuitous violence? I'm trying to choose movies with the same set of actors.
I think the big complaint about Eyes Wide Shut among film buffs is that the original cut was not "sexy" enough to deserve the NC-17 rating the MPAA originally slapped it with. The edits made to...
I think the big complaint about Eyes Wide Shut among film buffs is that the original cut was not "sexy" enough to deserve the NC-17 rating the MPAA originally slapped it with. The edits made to secure an R-rating for wide release were dumb.
But in the community I grew up in, the film's release was hailed as yet another step in the degradation of American culture and a sign of the end-times. You know, typical religious zealotry that ultimately fosters very unhealthy attitudes towards sex.
Ahhhhhh. I know a few Mormons. Knew a couple in high school and one of them was sad that his parents only let him watch PG movies. Especially cause all the guys would talk about like Wolf of Wall...
Ahhhhhh. I know a few Mormons. Knew a couple in high school and one of them was sad that his parents only let him watch PG movies.
Especially cause all the guys would talk about like Wolf of Wall Street and stuff.
Well it wasn’t a specific conversation. It’s the type of discourse tumblr talks about on a loop. Because they have a puritanical outlook on stuff (ex showing a character do bad things means it’s...
Well it wasn’t a specific conversation. It’s the type of discourse tumblr talks about on a loop. Because they have a puritanical outlook on stuff (ex showing a character do bad things means it’s endorsing bad things) they also say stuff like “I don’t wanna see sex” and “there is no reason for a sex scene to be in a movie.”
Its an opinion that toes the party line with tumblr users.
yeah this "sex scenes should never be in a movie ever" discourse has already been had over and over on both tumblr and twitter. the conversation here is more verbose but not treading any new...
yeah this "sex scenes should never be in a movie ever" discourse has already been had over and over on both tumblr and twitter. the conversation here is more verbose but not treading any new ground in terms of opinions and arguments.
The funny thing is that the discourse became a twitter thing after tumblr banned porn in 2018 and you had a lot of tumblr expats bringing those opinions with them to twitter.
discourse has already been had over and over on both tumblr and twitter.
The funny thing is that the discourse became a twitter thing after tumblr banned porn in 2018 and you had a lot of tumblr expats bringing those opinions with them to twitter.
It's a cognitive dissonance thing. The porn ban was considered sexist cause apparently women were primarily consuming porn through tumblr. I don't think there were any numbers to back up that...
It's a cognitive dissonance thing. The porn ban was considered sexist cause apparently women were primarily consuming porn through tumblr. I don't think there were any numbers to back up that claim, it was just based on the sites vibes.
I found this interview to be an interesting view into the delicate art of making sex-scenes on film. The role of an "intimacy coordinator" is a new thing and given some rather concerning accounts from the past, one that was sorely needed. It also seems like sex on film is having a bit of comeback, despite claims in recent years that the audience has become too puritan.
I think the point of about sex scenes, necessary or otherwise, is that they're being omitted not due to filmmakers finding them irrelevant but because their inclusion makes the movie more difficult to sell thouhh rather intense violence does not. Simple nudity is so often omitted that no one blinks twice at sheets covering a woman's breasts but being pushed down to a man's waist. (This doesn't even get into how queer sex is demonstrably more censored or how male vs female pleasure is treated differently.) There are very few movies that make a point to show those intimate moments but it's not really for artistic reasons.
This is a generalisation of course but I do think European movies generally handles this better. If there is nudity, itt is more casually shown in a relaxed natural way that feels realistic to how people would normally behave after sex. Many Hollywood movies have a more sexualised lense if they include nudity. With some exceptions of course, like that arguing scene in Before Midnight with Julie Delpy.
European movie and TV standards are definitely different. I'm not even talking about how tasteful or the artistic nature of it though you're right that how it's handled is more natural too.
The prudishness of "no sex scenes ever" - even when they're very plot relevant - is much more about them being PG13 and thus marketable. NC 17 is a kiss of death and the MPAA thinks that many things are too sexy for the movie theaters. But at an R rating you can show so much gore and violence.
It's odd to think one is more appropriate for young people and to have that one be the violent murder one.
Ratings are just weird and serves wildly different purposes in each country. Just take Before Midnight which by the MPAA is rated R because Julie Delpy is topless for a few minutes. Here in Denmark it is rated suitable for all ages because it contains no scary elements.
Absolutely, it's very culturally driven and I'm really only able to speak about the US's standards by virtue of living here. Having visited the UK and Europe, casual nudity was definitely more available on TV but I wasn't consuming a ton of media at the time due to being on more of a vacation.
This is definitely the case when it comes to the people making films, but I think the ratings and marketability are because of more general cultural attitudes towards sex and nudity in American culture. I think this permeates much deeper than just film and television but is just easier to see in film and television because we have things like ratings boards directly assessing the presence of such content.
I do think, and have seen other recent articles on, there being a pivot back to more puritanical perspectives on portrayals of sex. Even coming from asexual folks not wanting to watch it, which is reasonable but not necessarily what artistic choices should be made on across the board.
I think it's not as simple as it being the attitudes that came first. I think there's a feedback loop - the MPAA rating sexuality much more severely than violence, turns into less nudity and sexuality portrayed on movies (and TV ratings following suit), and attitudes about its inappropriateness are reinforced. It's very chicken and egg, and we could probably go back to actual Puritan times to identify a source, but I think we're locked into this cycle.
We definitely had a time of media being less puritanical, and there was clearly societal interest in it, but this country loves a good "for the children" censorship binge.
Yeah I definitely agree there's a feedback loop, but I think it's on top of the reactionary pivot towards more sexual puritanism you describe (though I don't think asexual folks are a particular driver of them, being both a really small group relative to the general population and also even on tumblr being a largely orthogonal community from the people pushing against sexual content). I'm not quite sure we're locked in this cycle permanently though -- certainly we've still come a long way from the Hayes Code days, even with this new pivot.
I mention ace folks because I have seen that discourse from the community but I'd agree they're not driving it. I don't think it's permanent just that it's going to require more intentional effort to pull out of. Especially given the other pushes towards controlling sexuality and preventing alleged "grooming" of kids by material that is otherwise educational or just part of a story.
Oh yeah I've definitely seen that discourse online but I think it's more often using ace people as a talking point to support one's position than any actual consensus among ace people. I was more active in the ace community before this discourse took hold, but we made a point of trying to dispel the myth that being ace entailed being sex-repulsed.
I do think the other pushes towards controlling sexuality and preventing grooming are part of a similar backlash for sure though
Yeah I get that it isn't an ace consensus, but I'd seen it in queer spaces from some ace folks and thought it an interesting outlier. I know that the a-spec is broad and inclusive of a number of attitudes and comfort levels towards sex.
But yes I by no means wanted to imply this was a majority opinion or major driver of the puritanism.
I often hear the claim about male vs female pleasure, but I don't really understand it. Perhaps female pleasure is shown in a potentially pornographic way, but I feel like the only depictions I can recall of male "pleasure" seem to show it as shameful more than anything. Otherwise,depictions seem to differ more in line with the male gaze archetype. I feel like the most common depictions, though, are everybody rolls over, panting and smiling.
I remember getting some numbers/data from This Film Not Yet Rated (2006) which itself is dated now. I would be intrigued on the up to date numbers as I think it's accurate that we're showing even less sex than we used to. Because that keeps it PG 13. But even thinking about R ratings it seems less - I also don't watch nearly as many movies as I used to so I know my experience isn't good data.
Because some of us don't want to see too much graphic sex or violence on screen.
How can these parents be boasting about their child watching an HBO show "all the time"?
We are what we eat, and we are also what we consume with our eyes and ears. Some things should be enjoyed in limited settings in limited quantities by persons with the right amount of maturity. It's great for sex and violence on screen to exist because they're important parts of the human experience. But I do lament that they have become far too commonplace and normalised.
It's like visiting a restaurant and everything is covered with a mountain or powered sugar with an overuse of salt.
...I mean, this is not really a solid response to the bit you quoted. Lanthimos is pointing out that culturally (in the US -- this is VERY different in Europe!) people are more willing to watch graphic violence and rape scenes than these consensual sexual scenes. If it were just about people not wanting graphic sex or violence on screen, they would object to all of these things equally, rather than having such a laissez-faire attitude towards violence, including sexual violence, but a much more negative reaction to depictions of consensual sex.
I'm curious how true that statement is, personally. I don't mind a sex scene, even if I don't like it, but I am always deeply uncomfortable by any hint of sexual assault, mostly because of how many stories seem to have it just for the sake of it (though this is more a problem in books than movies).
I think it would be more truthful if he left "rape scene" out of it.
We've been desintesized about violence on movies, but I don't think rape is included in there. There is a limit I think.
We can watch things like Game of Thrones, Kill Bill, whatever, but it is very different than watching very graphical stuff like Irreversible or Martyrs.
I am very happy that we seem to approach this with more awareness and respect now. Older movies had them in such frequency and played off like nothing, it's good to see the change. Heck, we observed the change during the run of How I Met Your Mother.
Oh I definitely agree with you in terms of my preferences, but I don't think US culture more generally necessarily follows that (and I especially don't think the ratings system does).
It seems pretty obvious to me why we would show fewer sex scenes. They're a waste of runtime. I have very rarely felt that a sex scene actively contributed to a movie in a way that implying what happened couldn't have accomplished the same thing without wasting a few minutes. Killing, on the other hand, usually actively moves the plot or story forward and usually takes almost no time. It can often become gratuitous, much like sex scenes can, but at least it isn't exploiting any actors to achieve that.
That is just because they don't know how to write motivation into fighting anymore. Movie combat is only good when you're invested in it. I never heard a complaint about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon having too much fighting. Or the first Matrix. Or Rocky. Because in those movies every fight means something.
Well, I for one dislike the waste of screen time dedicated to chase scenes and shoot em up scenes, as much as the sex.
But yes there's definitely a double standard and it shouldn't be that way
At least with Poor Things, it would have been a substantial different film if the sex scenes were only implied. I still think they got a bit tedious, but that is another matter.
Right??
I feel like I'm an alien minority in this, but even a black screen with "A [verbed] B" would suffice to move the story along.
If you need show don't tell to add nuance, off the top of my head I can think of three intimacy portrayals outside of the bedroom that are more intimate than the best sex scene:
Wuthering Heights:
Catherine's "Love Heathcliff? I am Heathcliff" speech
‘… My great miseries in this world have been Heathcliff’s miseries, and I watched and felt each from the beginning: my great thought in living is himself. If all else perished, and he remained, I should still continue to be; and if all else remained, and he were annihilated, the universe would turn to a mighty strange: I should not seem a part of it. My love for Linton is like the foliage in the woods: time will change it, I’m well aware, as winter changes the trees. My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath: a source of little visible delight, but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He’s always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being. So don’t talk of our separation again: it is impracticable;....Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling's scene in Crazy Stupid Love, in which they intended to have a one night stand, but instead they talked all night.
Mr and Mrs Smith, where they had a gun fight in the house trying to kill each other
(okay this one is violence, domestic violence even, but it's....not....graphical violence? I guess my point is that it's a creative depiction of an intimate dance.)
I feel like sex scenes are not needed not because it should be forbidden, but because they're a lazy shorthand for "and now they're intimate" or "and now he/she has had this experience".
While there are certainly valid criticism for unnecessary sex scenes in many cases, but I would argue that a movie is more than just what "moves the story along". Movies are a visual medium and watching a movie is much more than just the story. You could reduce all movies down to just the barebones needed for that, but it would ruin everything. There are for example scenes that could just be sweeping long takes of an ocean, flying over a city or people doing not much of anything on screen. None of these add directly to the story, but can still be an important part of the whole movies aesthetics and setting the atmosphere or evoking certain emotions in the viewer. Yet, somehow it is mostly only sex scenes that get this kind of criticism that they could just be scraped and nothing will be lost.
I see you point, and I don't disagree with you nor believe they should be written out for all time everywhere....
For example I also dislike the overuse of slow mo, the overuse of close up reaction shots, the overuse of CG, the overuse of quick edits and the overuse of sweeping shots.
So maybe use them like salt and sugar: in context and in good amount. I'm lamenting that food has become very oversaturated with it recently and personally I'd prefer the bare minimum of X in all my food if possible, but I'm still glad they exist as an ingredient for chefs.
Are you saying that spending minutes (which can amount to a few percent of a movie's runtime) to showing characters fucking just because it's an easy way to establish a connection and lets everybody get their rocks off is equivalent to spending 20 seconds on a shot that establishes tone and gives the audience a moment to reflect?
Why not? It can tell alot about what kind of relationship they have with how the couple behave in bed. Sex is part of human life and movies are depicting all kinds of aspects of human life, so I see no reason why it should be left out more or less than other aspects.
Because most movies with sex scenes don't use them as a storytelling method to show the characters' relationship. They just use it as a way to show tits and give the film sex appeal. It's how Portrait of a Lady on Fire could be such an incredible film while Blue is the Warmest Color made me feel dirty as though I had just watched someone's private, intimate statutory rape (Adèle was supposed to be 15 for the first, 8-minute sex scene, which included scissoring), even though both films were supposedly telling the same general story.
It is one thing to criticize individual films for doing this, but it is another thing to disregard the concept of sex scenes in general as something that doesn't add anything. I would just note that director for not being good at that sort of thing, rather than avoid sex in movies entirely.
But I never did that.
I believe you said earlier that they are a waste of time and the same could be achieved with just implying it instead? Which I just think is a weird way of looking at specific types of scenes in movies. Take car chases in action movies for example. Technically you could move the plot forward with just having an indication that a car chase happened, we really just need to know the end result. But that would in most cases be pretty weird, because car chases can be fun and exciting. Not just on their own, but because we are invested in the context of the characters and the narrative as well. I would say the same applies to a proper sex scene. Of course both car chases and sex scenes can be poorly made, but it is still mostly sex scenes that gets the notion that they are somehow unnecessary.
I said they're a waste of runtime and then said that I've seen very few movies which used them well, which means that I think they can be used well. I also think it's odd that you are comparing movies with sex scenes to action movies*. The whole point of action movies is the action. Movies where the entire point is sex are called pornography.
I also think that people talk about gratuitous action scenes pretty often, and if they are calling them gratuitous that is the same as saying that they were unnecessary.
Also, movies that don't show the violence are often lauded for leaving the horrors of the violence up to the viewer's imagination. The same goes for sex; people often say that things are sexier when they leave something to the imagination.
You also talked about well-made sex scenes but I'm not comparing well-made sex scenes to well-made action scenes; I think action scenes more often contribute to the director's vision for the character because all they need to convey is "yeah, this guy is cool! Look at all the cool things he can do!" Sex scenes, on the other hand, as implemented in most movies, don't contribute much to the characterization because the point of the character is not "yeah, look how cool this guy is! Look at all the fucking he does!" Again, that would usually be called pornography. Sex scenes usually appear in movies where the characters are supposed to have some semblance of healthy relationships, but the sex scenes do not contribute to those relationships in any way. Otherwise, I think they mostly appear in stupid action movies as part of a stupid romantic b-plot that nobody wants.
Action movies are more than just action scenes from start to finish. And some movies might only have one or two outright action scenes. And yes, you can watch porn just as well as you can just watch compilation videos of big explosions on Youtube, but that is not really the same thing, because what makes it interesting is when they are within a context of a movie with characters and a storyline you are invested in.
Absolutely. Sometimes just hearing a gunshot can be more powerful than seeing people get shot. But in general, I think most moviewatchers want both things to exist.
Maybe we just watch different movies, because I generally don't see sex scenes as unnecessary in most cases, unless it becomes totally ridiculous like in The Handmaiden, but I also don't really keep a list of good sex scenes. They are just a part of the entire movie on the same level as every other type of scenes, many of which don't directly attribute to the plot as well, but they don't get the same level of criticism. Of the top of my mind, I could mention Happy Together by Wong-kar wai which has some sex scenes with a gay couple (so at least there isn't the "lets show some tits" motivation here) which are very important in showing what kind of relationship these two guys have.
Yes, and I maintain that most action movies don't include characters or a storyline that viewers are invested in. Most action movies will at best have characters you're interested in because they're cool because they can do action so good. Just as many movies have completely pointless sex scenes, many movies have action sequences that don't contribute anything artistically, and those movies mostly exist as a way to convey action into my eyes, much as pancakes are often just ways to convey butter and syrup to my mouth.
That depends on the movie. Might not be invested or interested in the characters for the same reasons as a regular drama, but it still basically the same mechanism and same argument for why any kind of scene is worthwhile watching within the context of the movie. Can't take just that out and separate from the rest and call it porn or explosions video. Then it is a different thing entirely. But even with that way of looking at movies, I don't understand why it should make a difference. If we accept actions scenes as pointless - but still okay, why are sex scenes inherently different?
I feel like we could make the exact same complaints about most scenes of violence, but they rarely get the same negative attention. For some reason people hardly flinch when someone gets their head blown off but as soon as there is a female nipple on screen everyone freaks the hell out. Movies are about more than just story beats, and scenes of violence or intimacy that do not explicitly exist just to move the plot forward still contribute a lot to the whole experience. John Wick without the unnecessary violence would be a wholly different movie, as would Eyes Wide Shut without its gratuitous sex scenes.
It's fine not to like sex scenes, or violence, in media, that's part of having personal preferences. However I think the undue negative attention sex receives boils down to the fact that America still has a puritanical streak that needs to be dealt with. I think stigmatizing sex causes far more problems than it solves, but maybe I'm biased because I grew up being indoctrinated in very American cult with very strong stigmas against sex.
Good point. Maybe we're still at the stage where filmmakers need to get it out of their system. Meanwhile British comedy regular features nudity and butts in particular and it's just fun. Other European films have nudity without anyone really making a fuss. Japanese films have adults and children in baths and that's nothing to be concerned with either.
If we must go either 100% or 0%, though...with pologies to Voltaire's friend and biographer, Evelyn Beatrice Hall:
I disapprove of how much sex is in our films, but I will defend to the death their right to film it.
You know how, when you go buy bubble tea, you can specify sweetness and quantity of ice? I wish there was a way to dial down violence and sex for films for those who choose less.
How can you say everyone freaks out whenever a nipple is shown and then reference a movie that people complained wasn't sexy enough? I feel like you got close to answering the question, though. There are a lot more movies where the story revolved around the violence because those are easier to make, so people are just used to them. There are thousands of movies in the vein of John Wick, whereas most movies supposedly in the vein of Eyes Wide Shut are just softcore porn that enabled the director to exploit a hot, young actress, while the "psychological" side is just random twists or someone at the end announcing that they planned it all along. If there were more movies like Eyes Wide Shut, there would be more acceptance of Knock Knock, just like how movies like John Wick make it easier to accept I don't know...Knight and Day? Does that have gratuitous violence? I'm trying to choose movies with the same set of actors.
I think the big complaint about Eyes Wide Shut among film buffs is that the original cut was not "sexy" enough to deserve the NC-17 rating the MPAA originally slapped it with. The edits made to secure an R-rating for wide release were dumb.
But in the community I grew up in, the film's release was hailed as yet another step in the degradation of American culture and a sign of the end-times. You know, typical religious zealotry that ultimately fosters very unhealthy attitudes towards sex.
Were you in the Westboro Baptist Church
Utah
Ahhhhhh. I know a few Mormons. Knew a couple in high school and one of them was sad that his parents only let him watch PG movies.
Especially cause all the guys would talk about like Wolf of Wall Street and stuff.
I feel like I just witnessed a conversation from tumblr from a few years ago
Oh? What were they talking about and what are some good points you may remember from that conversation?
Well it wasn’t a specific conversation. It’s the type of discourse tumblr talks about on a loop. Because they have a puritanical outlook on stuff (ex showing a character do bad things means it’s endorsing bad things) they also say stuff like “I don’t wanna see sex” and “there is no reason for a sex scene to be in a movie.”
Its an opinion that toes the party line with tumblr users.
yeah this "sex scenes should never be in a movie ever" discourse has already been had over and over on both tumblr and twitter. the conversation here is more verbose but not treading any new ground in terms of opinions and arguments.
The funny thing is that the discourse became a twitter thing after tumblr banned porn in 2018 and you had a lot of tumblr expats bringing those opinions with them to twitter.
lol yeah, the fact that even the "all sex is bad in every context" people left during the porn ban is honestly wild
It's a cognitive dissonance thing. The porn ban was considered sexist cause apparently women were primarily consuming porn through tumblr. I don't think there were any numbers to back up that claim, it was just based on the sites vibes.
to be fair the site did bumble that ban in pretty much every way they could. "Female-presenting nipples" is still meme-worthy