I love how so many politicians and commentators are calling Hamas' attack "unprovoked". There might not have been a proximate trigger for this attack, but there have certainly been years, even...
I love how so many politicians and commentators are calling Hamas' attack "unprovoked". There might not have been a proximate trigger for this attack, but there have certainly been years, even decades, of provocation. Look at what one journalist wrote in this very blog:
People in Gaza also have next to no freedom of movement, and healthcare, electricity, sanitation and other crucial infrastructure have all but collapsed since Israel imposed the blockade.
The people living in the Gaza strip are cornered and trapped. Like the proverbial cornered animal, they're finally biting back.
I'm not saying they're right to make a military attack on Israel, and kill people, and take others hostage. But let's not pretend that Israel is a totally innocent victim here. This is like someone repeatedly poking a bear, and then acting surprised & innocent when the bear suddenly turns vicious.
And, as if we needed further reminding of this culpability...
Hamas’s surprise attack on Israel, on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war,
(EDIT to clarify: The Yom Kippur War of 1973 was a response to the Israel-initiated Six-Day War of 1967; the Arab countries tried to get back some of the land that Israel invaded and occupied in 1967.)
Israel has a long history of being the culprit in that area, as well as a victim.
Again: I don't condone violence. And the many civilians who are being killed, injured, and dispossessed by this attack deserve sympathy. But I can't quite find it in me to condemn Hamas' motives in this situation.
You should delete this shameful comment full of double speak. Both Hamas was cornered and had every right to attack, and "I don't condone violence". This isn't a military attack - they targeted,...
You should delete this shameful comment full of double speak. Both Hamas was cornered and had every right to attack, and "I don't condone violence". This isn't a military attack - they targeted, killed and kidnapped civilians, elderly, children. This isn't an attack on military targets.
EDIT:
The Yom Kippur War of 1973 was a response to the Israel-initiated Six-Day War of 1967;
You failed to mention that the 67 war started after Nasser kicked the UN peacekeeping force out of Sinai and started amassing forces on the border. Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia put battalions under Egyptian command and sent them to Sinai. Iraq sent troops to the Jordanian-controlled (then) West Bank, in a move expected to cut Israel in half. The war was for sure happening, Israel did a preemptive strike.
But that's exactly the problem with going back in time and selectively looking for justifications of what violence begot which violence. It's a neverending cycle.
That reaction removes any agency from Hamas. If it's just cause and effect then this absolves any responsibility from people who took decision to target and kill civilians. Will it similarly be...
That reaction removes any agency from Hamas. If it's just cause and effect then this absolves any responsibility from people who took decision to target and kill civilians. Will it similarly be cause and effect when Israel retaliates?
How does understanding cause and effect remove any agency? Having a sociological cause and effect isn't making a moral judgement - it's simply seeking to understand the conditions that led up to...
How does understanding cause and effect remove any agency? Having a sociological cause and effect isn't making a moral judgement - it's simply seeking to understand the conditions that led up to that action.
"Will it similarly be cause and effect when Israel retaliates?" Yes, we can also understand the cause and effect of retaliation. Again, that's not a moral judgement on either side.
No. I think that's absolving one side of any responsibility. I also think that what you're doing is a very uncharitable interpretation of what I'm saying.
No. I think that's absolving one side of any responsibility. I also think that what you're doing is a very uncharitable interpretation of what I'm saying.
What is often missed is that the Israelis have total power over the Palestinians. They have very sophisticated military technology which they use to strike fear into the occupied territories with...
What is often missed is that the Israelis have total power over the Palestinians. They have very sophisticated military technology which they use to strike fear into the occupied territories with regular bombings. They have systematically oppressed them for the past 75 years, taken their land, subjugated them, surveilled them, etc. Is it really any surprise that some Palestinians are resorting to armed struggle to try to free themselves?
I promise I'm not being uncharitable, I'm genuinely trying to understand your point. It seems to be a contradiction that it's not a moral judgement, but it also absolves one side of any...
I promise I'm not being uncharitable, I'm genuinely trying to understand your point. It seems to be a contradiction that it's not a moral judgement, but it also absolves one side of any responsibility. I don't think cause and effect casts a moral judgement, and I also don't think it absolves any side of responsibility. To me that seems to be a more logically consistent view. I don't think when people say "you poked the bear, of course it attacked" they are saying the bear ought to have attacked, or are saying it is right that it attacked, and I certainly don't believe that means the bear doesn't have agency.
Animals don't have moral agency. Equating one side with a provoked bear is saying that this side has no control or responsibility for their actions - they are simply inescapable reactions. They...
Animals don't have moral agency. Equating one side with a provoked bear is saying that this side has no control or responsibility for their actions - they are simply inescapable reactions. They had no choice but to kill and kidnap civilians. I think this mindset is wholly irresponsible and directly contributes to the Israeli Right narrative.
And that is also shameful and deplorable. It needs to be condemned as well. And within Israeli society and media it very much is. The problem with justifying answering violence with violence is...
And that is also shameful and deplorable. It needs to be condemned as well. And within Israeli society and media it very much is. The problem with justifying answering violence with violence is that it just cements this awful cycle and plays right into the hands of extremists on both sides. Netanyahu and his allies are going to come out of this conflict stronger than ever and Palestinian civilians are going to suffer even more.
True. It's a terrible situation. I wish Palestinians didn't have to resort to violence. But Israel has never stopped using violence against Palestinians, and peaceful protests have done nothing to...
True. It's a terrible situation. I wish Palestinians didn't have to resort to violence. But Israel has never stopped using violence against Palestinians, and peaceful protests have done nothing to stop their atrocities. I somehow doubt Israel would ever return land to Palestine no matter how nicely they ask. I don't see what choice they have to not turn to violence when the alternatives fail.
Do you see any Palestinian violence in the past 80 years resulting in a stop to the atrocities? Just the opposite. We were very close to a peaceful solution in the late 90s and early 00s. Since...
Do you see any Palestinian violence in the past 80 years resulting in a stop to the atrocities? Just the opposite. We were very close to a peaceful solution in the late 90s and early 00s. Since then violence has just exacerbated this horror, none more than for the Palestinians themselves.
I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Hamas and Hezbollah thrive on continuing the cycle of violence and egg it on intentionally. I mentioned elsewhere the proximate trigger for this was...
I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Hamas and Hezbollah thrive on continuing the cycle of violence and egg it on intentionally. I mentioned elsewhere the proximate trigger for this was likely the Saudi-Israel rapprochement and their need to prevent normalization of relations between Israel and its neighbors.
Peace would interfere with their long term project of wiping the country off the map. Just do things to continually traumatize and engender bad blood between consecutive generations and entrench the influence of the most intransigent warmongers on every side.
I’m starting to think there can be no solution with human rights respected that doesn’t involve imposing one by force and creating a common enemy for both sides to be mad at.
It's not like violence has ever stopped the atrocities, either. What the violence has done is help the international community fail to condemn what Israel does.
It's not like violence has ever stopped the atrocities, either. What the violence has done is help the international community fail to condemn what Israel does.
Exactly. This will only prolong and entrench the violence. I hate this fucking country and what they're doing to one another. They've been playing this dance in so long and any hope of them coming...
Exactly. This will only prolong and entrench the violence. I hate this fucking country and what they're doing to one another. They've been playing this dance in so long and any hope of them coming to a peaceful agreement was dashed decades ago. Nor will the international community ever step in in any significant way. In the meantime kids are dying. Just makes you want to scream
Why does it matter that Israeli society and media condemns Israeli violence? Look what government the Israeli people elected. Hamas goal is pretty clear here. Israelis have begun to see the...
Why does it matter that Israeli society and media condemns Israeli violence? Look what government the Israeli people elected.
Hamas goal is pretty clear here. Israelis have begun to see the occupation as a manageable problem that can be ignored. It barely figures into Israeli politics anymore, the debates are about settlers. Now, the IDF will flatten Gaza and kill a bunch of innocent civilians. Hamas themselves will kill more innocent civilians themselves. But no one will think this is an ignorable situation anymore. Sieging Gaza won't work. Ignoring Hamas won't work. The Palestinian problem will not go away until it's solved.
For the same reason it matters for public opinion to condemn violence against peaceful protesters during the American civil rights movement. That's the only way to change the situation, by...
For the same reason it matters for public opinion to condemn violence against peaceful protesters during the American civil rights movement. That's the only way to change the situation, by garnering public support.
I don't know what you're basing you claim that Israelis are ignoring the occupation and that it doesn't play into their politics. The last 40 some weeks of nearly daily protests against the government are also calling to end the occupation. You can easily demonize ask Israelis just like you could have all Americans - but at the end of the day, they are the only path to a lasting solution, just like Americans supporting the civil rights movement were. These acts will just prolong the cycle of violence and push such a solution even further away.
I don't think it helps if we misrepresent/strawman what other commenters have said. The comment you are replying to did not say that Hamas is justified in attacking civilian targets. I think the...
I don't think it helps if we misrepresent/strawman what other commenters have said. The comment you are replying to did not say that Hamas is justified in attacking civilian targets.
I think the other issue with this is that it's not as though the IDF has a spotless record when it comes to civilian targets – however they are not criticised for this in the same way as Hamas is. Of course nobody should be killing civilians! It is essential though that we recognise that this is widespread also among Israeli institutions. For example there is this Amnesty report as well as evidence of Israeli attacks on power infrastructure and journalists such as when they bombed Al Jazeera's headquarters to attempt silence their reporting or when they shot Shireen Abu Akleh.
I am not misrepresenting anything. This directly absolves any responsibility from the Hamasb for this attack while at the same time "not condoning violence". I guess we're not reading the same...
I am not misrepresenting anything.
This is like someone repeatedly poking a bear, and then acting surprised & innocent when the bear suddenly turns vicious.
This directly absolves any responsibility from the Hamasb for this attack while at the same time "not condoning violence".
IDF has a spotless record when it comes to civilian targets – however they are not criticised for this in the same way as Hamas is.
I guess we're not reading the same sources because the IDF is absolutely criticized pretty heavily for civilian casualties even and especially inside Israeli society. Justifiably so. That is despite the Hamas hiding militants, launchers and munitions at the heart of civilian population, launching missiles from within schools and hospitals deliberately - against international law.
Just like I said in a previous comment - justifying and excusing violence is only going to cement and prolong it and both sides are going to suffer as they turn to more and more extremism.
I really feel that this is your interpretation of the remark – I interpret the statement as meaning that Palestinian violence is a result of the oppression Israel subjects them to. There are many...
This directly absolves any responsibility from the Hamasb for this attack while at the same time "not condoning violence".
I really feel that this is your interpretation of the remark – I interpret the statement as meaning that Palestinian violence is a result of the oppression Israel subjects them to. There are many moral actions which are the result of something; A might slap B because B slapped A. It is correct to say that B slapping A is a cause of A's slapping of B – it would be incorrect to say that B is justified in slapping A back.
On a second point, if you don't think violence will help the Palestinians (as it has other anti-colonialist movements, such as Algeria, etc) what do you think is a realistic path to Palestinians realising their right to self-determination.
Not only is it my interpretation, it is also yours: Not sure how many other ways to say it but targeting and killing civilians, kids is never justified and rarely will it achieve the goal. I'm not...
Not only is it my interpretation, it is also yours:
Is it really any surprise that some Palestinians are resorting to armed struggle to try to free themselves?
Not sure how many other ways to say it but targeting and killing civilians, kids is never justified and rarely will it achieve the goal.
I'm not sure how versed you are with the history of this conflict, but we had already been there. The only thing that brought us even remotely close to a solution are the peace talks and international support in the 90s and 00s. Both sides need to go back to the negotiating table. Attacks like this not only make it hard, entrancing both sides in more extremism, but they pull the rug from under the international community in supporting the Palestinian cause.
I agree. Animals don't have moral agency; but humans do. It's why we consider the actions of Gandhi and King so noble, and the actions of Hamas so ignoble. Similarly for vegetarians and vegans,...
This directly absolves any responsibility from the Hamasb for this attack while at the same time "not condoning violence".
I agree. Animals don't have moral agency; but humans do. It's why we consider the actions of Gandhi and King so noble, and the actions of Hamas so ignoble.
Similarly for vegetarians and vegans, it's why there's a moral distinction between humans eating meat versus animals eating meat in the wild, an oft-mentioned point by pro-meat eaters. Animals must act in accordance with their instincts and nature. But humans have choice.
Those politicians saying it's unprovoked aren't worth listening to. Israel as a country and their government have certainly provoked it a lot and it certainly looks like apartheid politics to me....
I'm not saying they're right to make a military attack on Israel, and kill people, and take others hostage. But let's not pretend that Israel is a totally innocent victim here. This is like someone repeatedly poking a bear, and then acting surprised & innocent when the bear suddenly turns vicious.
Those politicians saying it's unprovoked aren't worth listening to. Israel as a country and their government have certainly provoked it a lot and it certainly looks like apartheid politics to me. But those civilians dying today are not the same as their country or government or even military. They are 100% innocent victims and literally nothing excuses their murders.
But I can't quite find it in me to condemn Hamas' motives in this situation.
Hamas may be motivated by many legitimate wrongdoings against the people of Palestine, but murdering civilians ain't it and they are going to lose any and all goodwill from activists in the west who would otherwise chant "free Palestine". I mean for fuck's sake there is a video out there featuring Hamas militants sitting in a truckbed with a half-naked dead Israeli woman's body next to them, and they are parading it around the streets as though it is some kind of victory.
Again, Israel is in my view an apartheid state and the IDF are not the good guys and also deserves condemnation for countless incidents. But Hamas solves literally nothing with this. They are terrorists and unequivocally also condemnable.
I agree with everything you said except this. I personally highly doubt most "free Palestine" types are seeing these videos (morbid curiosity even got the better of me and I asked someone on...
they are going to lose any and all goodwill from activists in the west who would otherwise chant "free Palestine". I mean for fuck's sake there is a video out there featuring Hamas militants sitting in a truckbed with a half-naked dead Israeli woman's body next to them, and they are parading it around the streets as though it is some kind of victory.
I agree with everything you said except this. I personally highly doubt most "free Palestine" types are seeing these videos (morbid curiosity even got the better of me and I asked someone on reddit for links and he said they had been taken down). As someone who mostly sticks to leftist spaces on the internet, I can vouch for the fact that all of the I/P videos I see floating around are of Israelis treating Palestinians badly and never of what Palestinian terrorists are up to. I'm aware enough of context to know that the terrorism problem is a real and legitimate concern that Israel has to contend with, but if I were less educated and all I knew about the conflict was from social media, I'd believe (as many leftists do) that Israel is a genocidal state and that any and all retaliation by Palestinians is justified.
I absolutely do not believe that Hamas's actions are justified, but I 100% believe that a relatively large subgroup of leftists believe this and are if anything happy to see Hamas attack Israel.
They are very gruesome videos. Even though you're in a bubble and won't necessarily see it, you cannot deny what is shown. If people see them and still support Hamas, I don't know what to say. TW...
They are very gruesome videos. Even though you're in a bubble and won't necessarily see it, you cannot deny what is shown. If people see them and still support Hamas, I don't know what to say.
TW graphic description:
There is another one that shows a room full of massacred people in a shelter which was broken into by militants. There was blood and dead bodies everywhere. It is one of the most brutal things I have ever seen on the internet and that should say something.
I think this thread falls into the danger of rehashing the justifications for Israel or the Palestinians, but Hamas has historically shown itself to be an extremist hate-based organization and now...
I think this thread falls into the danger of rehashing the justifications for Israel or the Palestinians, but Hamas has historically shown itself to be an extremist hate-based organization and now it has demonstrated that its barbarism is on the level of ISIS.
A slight majority of Palestinians—53% if I recall—support Hamas. Looking into the future of the next 1–2 generations, how are peace and reconciliation possible with such a society and culture? Integration and the end of containment are impossible because it'd lead to a Rwanda situation: a sizable segment of Palestinian society appears eager to take up machetes against Israeli civilians. And a two-state solution is also impossible, given Hamas' anti-reconciliatory platform and militarization of the Palestinian economy.
At this point I feel like a major displacement of peoples is the only solution although take my grain opinion with a grain of salt as I only have cursory knowledge of this mess. But large...
At this point I feel like a major displacement of peoples is the only solution although take my grain opinion with a grain of salt as I only have cursory knowledge of this mess. But large movements of people are of course very morally questionable, however looking at the redrawing of borders and outright exchange of peoples from Ukraine/Poland/Germany in the aftermath of WW2, it is proven to work. Another example is the current migration of ethnic Armenians from Artsakh. It is tragic that they lose their homes - but they keep their lives and maybe there will be peace.
Hamas has historically shown itself to be an extremist hate-based organization and now it has demonstrated that its barbarism is on the level of ISIS.
I hope that today's events will make more people realise the reality of it. It has done so for me, anyway. As you say, reconciliation is impossible. Because when one part has the stated goal of eradicating the other part, there is obviously zero common ground.
You can, and some will even try to justify it. It's not just trump who has legions of followers who are there more to "win" than to care about the issues, and I've absolutely met many people on...
Even though you're in a bubble and won't necessarily see it, you cannot deny what is shown.
You can, and some will even try to justify it. It's not just trump who has legions of followers who are there more to "win" than to care about the issues, and I've absolutely met many people on the more extreme sides who do not care what is done by "their side" because it's always "justified".
I think one of the most interesting parts of this is the utter lack of intel. Yom-Kippur was a similar situation, but after 50 years the idea was that the tech is good enough to prevent...
I think one of the most interesting parts of this is the utter lack of intel.
Yom-Kippur was a similar situation, but after 50 years the idea was that the tech is good enough to prevent mobilizations of this scale from coming unnoticed. This was predictable in the sense that there was bound to be a heavy operation eventually, but catching Israel completely off guard like this was unthinkable for me. I guess it is a parallel to YK in that sense, as people were very confident back then, too.
I'm scared about escalation. This government doesn't need an excuse to launch attacks, and this is one hell of a justification for them. If no-one holds them back it's very possible that we're expecting something horrific. People in Israeli forums are calling for Gaza to be flattened.
I hope you stay safe, I read your comment in an earlier thread on this and was moved by how scary the situation sounds. It’s hard to imagine for those of us fortunate enough to live in very...
I hope you stay safe, I read your comment in an earlier thread on this and was moved by how scary the situation sounds. It’s hard to imagine for those of us fortunate enough to live in very peaceful places.
Indian intelligence has been suggesting that Islamist terrorist networks were planning something big soon, but I think they were focused on the implications for India. They recently busted several...
I think one of the most interesting parts of this is the utter lack of intel.
Indian intelligence has been suggesting that Islamist terrorist networks were planning something big soon, but I think they were focused on the implications for India. They recently busted several separate cells of terrorists planning bombings on in Kashmir and some communal flashpoints in the rest of India, like the Ayodhya site.
I think intel agencies can pick up from signals intelligence and social media when activity is planned but maybe don’t always know for sure when or what kind. And since these terrorist groups seem to operate in sort of a global Islamist nexus knowing something is happening in one region probably eggs the ones operating elsewhere on to trigger plans of their own.
Agreed. Comparisons to Yom Kippur begin and end with the intelligence debacle, but the rest of it is just Netanyahu creating the justification for response. It's going to be bad. And it's going to...
Agreed. Comparisons to Yom Kippur begin and end with the intelligence debacle, but the rest of it is just Netanyahu creating the justification for response. It's going to be bad.
And it's going to roll back months and months of protests against the reform. Netanyahu and allies couldn't have been handed a bigger boon.
Ive seen a couple of mentions that some of the troops that usually are stationed close to Gaza had been moved north to the West Bank. So perhaps there was intelligence but the attack was expected...
I think one of the most interesting parts of this is the utter lack of intel.
Ive seen a couple of mentions that some of the troops that usually are stationed close to Gaza had been moved north to the West Bank. So perhaps there was intelligence but the attack was expected from the West Bank?
I'm scared about escalation
Yeah... :/ And it is going to be "interesting" to see what Hezbollah do when/if IDF move into Gaza.
It's going to be really scary to follow this as it unfolds. I can't remember it ever having gotten this bad in my lifetime although I do see some are saying things got equally intense in 2006? I...
It's going to be really scary to follow this as it unfolds. I can't remember it ever having gotten this bad in my lifetime although I do see some are saying things got equally intense in 2006?
I think the most important thing to remember is that there's no need to pick a side. Far be it from me to enter the role of an 'enlightened centrist' but things are really complex and nuanced and both sides can be bad at the same time.. meanwhile a friend who watches a bit too many leftist Youtubers goes "lol I hope Hamas wins" 🤦♀️
This is anecdotal but according to another friend who is half Israeli, she doesn't know even a single person of Jewish descent (or part of the diaspora here in Denmark) that see it so black and white as that. But yeah, nobody she knows likes anything about it nor supports it and she is baffled about it all and calls it pointless. Thankfully her family lives somewhere around Tel Aviv so they are ok for now. Can only hope the situation won't escalate further but it looks really bad
This is exactly how I feel. For reference, I'm an American Jew and I know a lot of other Jews (NYC-area), and same. To be fair, I haven't discussed Israel with anyone who is ultra-orthodox, and...
I think the most important thing to remember is that there's no need to pick a side. Far be it from me to enter the role of an 'enlightened centrist' but things are really complex and nuanced and both sides can be bad at the same time
This is exactly how I feel.
This is anecdotal but according to another friend who is half Israeli, she doesn't know even a single person of Jewish descent (or part of the diaspora here in Denmark) that see it so black and white as that.
For reference, I'm an American Jew and I know a lot of other Jews (NYC-area), and same. To be fair, I haven't discussed Israel with anyone who is ultra-orthodox, and they tend to be quite right-wing, but they are also a small minority of us Jews.
It's tough, though-- even though I myself am a leftist, I hear some leftists say things like "Ashkenazi Jews are evil." I'm not exaggerating-- that is a direct quote, as if I and my family and many friends (Ashkenazis who were born in the US, have never left the US, and have nothing to do with Israel) have anything to do with any of the bad shit that has happened to Palestinians. The only reason I even started paying attention to Israel to begin with is because people started hating me because of it and I figured I might as well learn what all the shit was about.
Of course, any time I call someone out for being antisemitic, they claim "being critical of Israel is not antisemitic," totally missing the fact that they're blaming an entire ethnoreligious group for the actions of a few.
It just gets so tiring. I'm sick of this stupid conflict that has nothing to do with me that I keep getting blamed for. I'm sick of hearing "Jews are Nazis." I'm a leftist because I believe (among many other things) that people shouldn't be judged by their ethnicity. How do these "leftists" not see that they're actively scapegoating Jews?
Of course, not all leftists are like this (if they were I wouldn't be one). But I am so saddened by all the hate towards Jews I regularly see in leftist spaces, and I'm someone who agrees that many of Israel's actions aren't appropriate.
Sorry to go off-- I just needed to get this off my chest. In general it seems antisemitism in the US has risen dramatically on both the right (with literal, self-identified nazis) and on the left (where we get blamed for everything Israel does). I'm mean, after 2001, leftists were good about calling out anyone claiming that Muslims are terrorists. Why don't Jews get the same support?
It really is difficult to have perspective while still being in it. We'll have to wait for the dust to settle. I was there in 2006 and I'd say this feels worse in some ways - maybe like the...
It really is difficult to have perspective while still being in it. We'll have to wait for the dust to settle. I was there in 2006 and I'd say this feels worse in some ways - maybe like the insanity that was 1995. But it certainly isn't going to be as prolonged as 2006.
Personally, I feel like this terminology was practically created (not literally but just in general) to make people treat things more black and white. Very very few issues are black and white,...
Far be it from me to enter the role of an 'enlightened centrist'
Personally, I feel like this terminology was practically created (not literally but just in general) to make people treat things more black and white.
Very very few issues are black and white, especially when you start getting into the details. This conflict is one of them, and has bad actors on all sides who benefit from the violence and atrocities, and also a ton of extremists and arm chair experts.
It bothers me that every position like this now has to pre defend against a dumb name calling argument that's mostly been spawned by american political nonsense.
Well this tracks and will definitely not turn into more embitterment and calls for violence. For folks that are calling this a 2 sided conflict, it's like blaming an intern (Palestine) for sexual...
“The enemy will pay a price it has never known,”
Well this tracks and will definitely not turn into more embitterment and calls for violence. For folks that are calling this a 2 sided conflict, it's like blaming an intern (Palestine) for sexual misconduct with an executive (Israel). The level of culpability is radically different, Israel is actively choosing war and misery.
I respect that this issue is not simple at all, and going to be presented in ways that are not true to the situation, but I don't think simplifying it to such an analogy is doing anyone any...
I respect that this issue is not simple at all, and going to be presented in ways that are not true to the situation, but I don't think simplifying it to such an analogy is doing anyone any favors. This issue is vastly more complex than that.
I'm very not-well-read on Israel/Gaza/Hamas/etc... and I'm having trouble understanding exactly what is happening right now. Does anyone have a good source for information for people that need a...
I'm very not-well-read on Israel/Gaza/Hamas/etc... and I'm having trouble understanding exactly what is happening right now. Does anyone have a good source for information for people that need a primer on all this? The attack came from Hamas (based in Gaza?) and now is Israel at war with Gaza or just Hamas? What does that look like - are they invading Gaza as a whole or just attacking 'military' targets (are there military targets or is it a decentralized organization needing COIN ops)? How many people are part of or favorably view Hamas in Gaza? Is Hamas synonymous with Gaza? lots of questions
I think the talks of "war" are overblown. It is a very significant attack though and as someone who is well read on the conflict I cannot tell you where exactly this ends. There are reports of...
I think the talks of "war" are overblown. It is a very significant attack though and as someone who is well read on the conflict I cannot tell you where exactly this ends. There are reports of dozens of kidnapped civilians, families, kids and elderly who were taken from Israeli towns into Gaza. Reports of hundreds of Hamas militants infiltrating Israel and going into hiding. This is likely going to be devastating to Gaza as Israeli troops are going to enter Gaza to locate those civilians and tear down the Hamas. These is going to be so much suffering and violence to come, it just makes me want to cry.
As for popular support for Hamas - see here (poll from 2021 but unlikely to have changed significantly)
Hamas is the governing group in Gaza. They are the reasons whatever infrastructure and public services that exist under Israeli embargo get to the Palestinians in that area. Many Gaza people...
Hamas is the governing group in Gaza. They are the reasons whatever infrastructure and public services that exist under Israeli embargo get to the Palestinians in that area. Many Gaza people support their violence, while others disagree with it but are so dependent on the system there's no viable way to change it.
Gazan militants are embedded in civilization population areas and infrastructure - schools are a common place to launch rockets from, for example. They believe the only way to free Palestinians from the suffering under Israeli embargo is massive violence on civilians, "Sherman's march through Georgia was the only way to end the Civil War"-type belief. Whatever happens, a lot of civilians are going to die.
I love how so many politicians and commentators are calling Hamas' attack "unprovoked". There might not have been a proximate trigger for this attack, but there have certainly been years, even decades, of provocation. Look at what one journalist wrote in this very blog:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/07/hamas-launches-attack-on-israel-with-5000-rockets-live?page=with:block-65210ea28f08584119dd1b2c#block-65210ea28f08584119dd1b2c
The people living in the Gaza strip are cornered and trapped. Like the proverbial cornered animal, they're finally biting back.
I'm not saying they're right to make a military attack on Israel, and kill people, and take others hostage. But let's not pretend that Israel is a totally innocent victim here. This is like someone repeatedly poking a bear, and then acting surprised & innocent when the bear suddenly turns vicious.
And, as if we needed further reminding of this culpability...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/07/hamas-launches-attack-on-israel-with-5000-rockets-live?page=with:block-652135d78f0880e74add77bb#block-652135d78f0880e74add77bb
(EDIT to clarify: The Yom Kippur War of 1973 was a response to the Israel-initiated Six-Day War of 1967; the Arab countries tried to get back some of the land that Israel invaded and occupied in 1967.)
Israel has a long history of being the culprit in that area, as well as a victim.
Again: I don't condone violence. And the many civilians who are being killed, injured, and dispossessed by this attack deserve sympathy. But I can't quite find it in me to condemn Hamas' motives in this situation.
You should delete this shameful comment full of double speak. Both Hamas was cornered and had every right to attack, and "I don't condone violence". This isn't a military attack - they targeted, killed and kidnapped civilians, elderly, children. This isn't an attack on military targets.
EDIT:
You failed to mention that the 67 war started after Nasser kicked the UN peacekeeping force out of Sinai and started amassing forces on the border. Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia put battalions under Egyptian command and sent them to Sinai. Iraq sent troops to the Jordanian-controlled (then) West Bank, in a move expected to cut Israel in half. The war was for sure happening, Israel did a preemptive strike.
But that's exactly the problem with going back in time and selectively looking for justifications of what violence begot which violence. It's a neverending cycle.
I don't think it's double speak to say you don't condone violence and you can also understand the cause-and-effect of how that violence happened.
That reaction removes any agency from Hamas. If it's just cause and effect then this absolves any responsibility from people who took decision to target and kill civilians. Will it similarly be cause and effect when Israel retaliates?
How does understanding cause and effect remove any agency? Having a sociological cause and effect isn't making a moral judgement - it's simply seeking to understand the conditions that led up to that action.
"Will it similarly be cause and effect when Israel retaliates?" Yes, we can also understand the cause and effect of retaliation. Again, that's not a moral judgement on either side.
This very much is a moral judgement. Bears don't have agency, bears simply react to violence against them.
You think that's making a moral judgement that bears ought to commit violence?
No. I think that's absolving one side of any responsibility. I also think that what you're doing is a very uncharitable interpretation of what I'm saying.
What is often missed is that the Israelis have total power over the Palestinians. They have very sophisticated military technology which they use to strike fear into the occupied territories with regular bombings. They have systematically oppressed them for the past 75 years, taken their land, subjugated them, surveilled them, etc. Is it really any surprise that some Palestinians are resorting to armed struggle to try to free themselves?
I promise I'm not being uncharitable, I'm genuinely trying to understand your point. It seems to be a contradiction that it's not a moral judgement, but it also absolves one side of any responsibility. I don't think cause and effect casts a moral judgement, and I also don't think it absolves any side of responsibility. To me that seems to be a more logically consistent view. I don't think when people say "you poked the bear, of course it attacked" they are saying the bear ought to have attacked, or are saying it is right that it attacked, and I certainly don't believe that means the bear doesn't have agency.
Animals don't have moral agency. Equating one side with a provoked bear is saying that this side has no control or responsibility for their actions - they are simply inescapable reactions. They had no choice but to kill and kidnap civilians. I think this mindset is wholly irresponsible and directly contributes to the Israeli Right narrative.
"They are simply inescapable reactions. They had no choice but to kill and kidnap civilians. "
I don't believe anyone is saying this
Israel has been casually murdering Palestinians for decades. I find it hard to condemn Hamas for their response to that. What else could they do?
And that is also shameful and deplorable. It needs to be condemned as well. And within Israeli society and media it very much is. The problem with justifying answering violence with violence is that it just cements this awful cycle and plays right into the hands of extremists on both sides. Netanyahu and his allies are going to come out of this conflict stronger than ever and Palestinian civilians are going to suffer even more.
True. It's a terrible situation. I wish Palestinians didn't have to resort to violence. But Israel has never stopped using violence against Palestinians, and peaceful protests have done nothing to stop their atrocities. I somehow doubt Israel would ever return land to Palestine no matter how nicely they ask. I don't see what choice they have to not turn to violence when the alternatives fail.
Do you see any Palestinian violence in the past 80 years resulting in a stop to the atrocities? Just the opposite. We were very close to a peaceful solution in the late 90s and early 00s. Since then violence has just exacerbated this horror, none more than for the Palestinians themselves.
I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Hamas and Hezbollah thrive on continuing the cycle of violence and egg it on intentionally. I mentioned elsewhere the proximate trigger for this was likely the Saudi-Israel rapprochement and their need to prevent normalization of relations between Israel and its neighbors.
Peace would interfere with their long term project of wiping the country off the map. Just do things to continually traumatize and engender bad blood between consecutive generations and entrench the influence of the most intransigent warmongers on every side.
I’m starting to think there can be no solution with human rights respected that doesn’t involve imposing one by force and creating a common enemy for both sides to be mad at.
It's not like violence has ever stopped the atrocities, either. What the violence has done is help the international community fail to condemn what Israel does.
Exactly. This will only prolong and entrench the violence. I hate this fucking country and what they're doing to one another. They've been playing this dance in so long and any hope of them coming to a peaceful agreement was dashed decades ago. Nor will the international community ever step in in any significant way. In the meantime kids are dying. Just makes you want to scream
I think this is kind of the point of why comments like Algernon_Asimov's are necessary. This isn't really a balanced conflict, it's apartheid.
Why does it matter that Israeli society and media condemns Israeli violence? Look what government the Israeli people elected.
Hamas goal is pretty clear here. Israelis have begun to see the occupation as a manageable problem that can be ignored. It barely figures into Israeli politics anymore, the debates are about settlers. Now, the IDF will flatten Gaza and kill a bunch of innocent civilians. Hamas themselves will kill more innocent civilians themselves. But no one will think this is an ignorable situation anymore. Sieging Gaza won't work. Ignoring Hamas won't work. The Palestinian problem will not go away until it's solved.
For the same reason it matters for public opinion to condemn violence against peaceful protesters during the American civil rights movement. That's the only way to change the situation, by garnering public support.
I don't know what you're basing you claim that Israelis are ignoring the occupation and that it doesn't play into their politics. The last 40 some weeks of nearly daily protests against the government are also calling to end the occupation. You can easily demonize ask Israelis just like you could have all Americans - but at the end of the day, they are the only path to a lasting solution, just like Americans supporting the civil rights movement were. These acts will just prolong the cycle of violence and push such a solution even further away.
I don't think it helps if we misrepresent/strawman what other commenters have said. The comment you are replying to did not say that Hamas is justified in attacking civilian targets.
I think the other issue with this is that it's not as though the IDF has a spotless record when it comes to civilian targets – however they are not criticised for this in the same way as Hamas is. Of course nobody should be killing civilians! It is essential though that we recognise that this is widespread also among Israeli institutions. For example there is this Amnesty report as well as evidence of Israeli attacks on power infrastructure and journalists such as when they bombed Al Jazeera's headquarters to attempt silence their reporting or when they shot Shireen Abu Akleh.
I am not misrepresenting anything.
This directly absolves any responsibility from the Hamasb for this attack while at the same time "not condoning violence".
I guess we're not reading the same sources because the IDF is absolutely criticized pretty heavily for civilian casualties even and especially inside Israeli society. Justifiably so. That is despite the Hamas hiding militants, launchers and munitions at the heart of civilian population, launching missiles from within schools and hospitals deliberately - against international law.
Just like I said in a previous comment - justifying and excusing violence is only going to cement and prolong it and both sides are going to suffer as they turn to more and more extremism.
I really feel that this is your interpretation of the remark – I interpret the statement as meaning that Palestinian violence is a result of the oppression Israel subjects them to. There are many moral actions which are the result of something; A might slap B because B slapped A. It is correct to say that B slapping A is a cause of A's slapping of B – it would be incorrect to say that B is justified in slapping A back.
On a second point, if you don't think violence will help the Palestinians (as it has other anti-colonialist movements, such as Algeria, etc) what do you think is a realistic path to Palestinians realising their right to self-determination.
Not only is it my interpretation, it is also yours:
Not sure how many other ways to say it but targeting and killing civilians, kids is never justified and rarely will it achieve the goal.
I'm not sure how versed you are with the history of this conflict, but we had already been there. The only thing that brought us even remotely close to a solution are the peace talks and international support in the 90s and 00s. Both sides need to go back to the negotiating table. Attacks like this not only make it hard, entrancing both sides in more extremism, but they pull the rug from under the international community in supporting the Palestinian cause.
I agree. Animals don't have moral agency; but humans do. It's why we consider the actions of Gandhi and King so noble, and the actions of Hamas so ignoble.
Similarly for vegetarians and vegans, it's why there's a moral distinction between humans eating meat versus animals eating meat in the wild, an oft-mentioned point by pro-meat eaters. Animals must act in accordance with their instincts and nature. But humans have choice.
Exactly what I'm saying
Those politicians saying it's unprovoked aren't worth listening to. Israel as a country and their government have certainly provoked it a lot and it certainly looks like apartheid politics to me. But those civilians dying today are not the same as their country or government or even military. They are 100% innocent victims and literally nothing excuses their murders.
Hamas may be motivated by many legitimate wrongdoings against the people of Palestine, but murdering civilians ain't it and they are going to lose any and all goodwill from activists in the west who would otherwise chant "free Palestine". I mean for fuck's sake there is a video out there featuring Hamas militants sitting in a truckbed with a half-naked dead Israeli woman's body next to them, and they are parading it around the streets as though it is some kind of victory.
Again, Israel is in my view an apartheid state and the IDF are not the good guys and also deserves condemnation for countless incidents. But Hamas solves literally nothing with this. They are terrorists and unequivocally also condemnable.
I agree with everything you said except this. I personally highly doubt most "free Palestine" types are seeing these videos (morbid curiosity even got the better of me and I asked someone on reddit for links and he said they had been taken down). As someone who mostly sticks to leftist spaces on the internet, I can vouch for the fact that all of the I/P videos I see floating around are of Israelis treating Palestinians badly and never of what Palestinian terrorists are up to. I'm aware enough of context to know that the terrorism problem is a real and legitimate concern that Israel has to contend with, but if I were less educated and all I knew about the conflict was from social media, I'd believe (as many leftists do) that Israel is a genocidal state and that any and all retaliation by Palestinians is justified.
I absolutely do not believe that Hamas's actions are justified, but I 100% believe that a relatively large subgroup of leftists believe this and are if anything happy to see Hamas attack Israel.
They are very gruesome videos. Even though you're in a bubble and won't necessarily see it, you cannot deny what is shown. If people see them and still support Hamas, I don't know what to say.
TW graphic description:
There is another one that shows a room full of massacred people in a shelter which was broken into by militants. There was blood and dead bodies everywhere. It is one of the most brutal things I have ever seen on the internet and that should say something.
I think this thread falls into the danger of rehashing the justifications for Israel or the Palestinians, but Hamas has historically shown itself to be an extremist hate-based organization and now it has demonstrated that its barbarism is on the level of ISIS.
A slight majority of Palestinians—53% if I recall—support Hamas. Looking into the future of the next 1–2 generations, how are peace and reconciliation possible with such a society and culture? Integration and the end of containment are impossible because it'd lead to a Rwanda situation: a sizable segment of Palestinian society appears eager to take up machetes against Israeli civilians. And a two-state solution is also impossible, given Hamas' anti-reconciliatory platform and militarization of the Palestinian economy.
At this point I feel like a major displacement of peoples is the only solution although take my grain opinion with a grain of salt as I only have cursory knowledge of this mess. But large movements of people are of course very morally questionable, however looking at the redrawing of borders and outright exchange of peoples from Ukraine/Poland/Germany in the aftermath of WW2, it is proven to work. Another example is the current migration of ethnic Armenians from Artsakh. It is tragic that they lose their homes - but they keep their lives and maybe there will be peace.
I hope that today's events will make more people realise the reality of it. It has done so for me, anyway. As you say, reconciliation is impossible. Because when one part has the stated goal of eradicating the other part, there is obviously zero common ground.
You can, and some will even try to justify it. It's not just trump who has legions of followers who are there more to "win" than to care about the issues, and I've absolutely met many people on the more extreme sides who do not care what is done by "their side" because it's always "justified".
I think one of the most interesting parts of this is the utter lack of intel.
Yom-Kippur was a similar situation, but after 50 years the idea was that the tech is good enough to prevent mobilizations of this scale from coming unnoticed. This was predictable in the sense that there was bound to be a heavy operation eventually, but catching Israel completely off guard like this was unthinkable for me. I guess it is a parallel to YK in that sense, as people were very confident back then, too.
I'm scared about escalation. This government doesn't need an excuse to launch attacks, and this is one hell of a justification for them. If no-one holds them back it's very possible that we're expecting something horrific. People in Israeli forums are calling for Gaza to be flattened.
I hope you stay safe, I read your comment in an earlier thread on this and was moved by how scary the situation sounds. It’s hard to imagine for those of us fortunate enough to live in very peaceful places.
Indian intelligence has been suggesting that Islamist terrorist networks were planning something big soon, but I think they were focused on the implications for India. They recently busted several separate cells of terrorists planning bombings on in Kashmir and some communal flashpoints in the rest of India, like the Ayodhya site.
I think intel agencies can pick up from signals intelligence and social media when activity is planned but maybe don’t always know for sure when or what kind. And since these terrorist groups seem to operate in sort of a global Islamist nexus knowing something is happening in one region probably eggs the ones operating elsewhere on to trigger plans of their own.
Agreed. Comparisons to Yom Kippur begin and end with the intelligence debacle, but the rest of it is just Netanyahu creating the justification for response. It's going to be bad.
And it's going to roll back months and months of protests against the reform. Netanyahu and allies couldn't have been handed a bigger boon.
Are you and your family okay?
Ive seen a couple of mentions that some of the troops that usually are stationed close to Gaza had been moved north to the West Bank. So perhaps there was intelligence but the attack was expected from the West Bank?
Yeah... :/ And it is going to be "interesting" to see what Hezbollah do when/if IDF move into Gaza.
It's going to be really scary to follow this as it unfolds. I can't remember it ever having gotten this bad in my lifetime although I do see some are saying things got equally intense in 2006?
I think the most important thing to remember is that there's no need to pick a side. Far be it from me to enter the role of an 'enlightened centrist' but things are really complex and nuanced and both sides can be bad at the same time.. meanwhile a friend who watches a bit too many leftist Youtubers goes "lol I hope Hamas wins" 🤦♀️
This is anecdotal but according to another friend who is half Israeli, she doesn't know even a single person of Jewish descent (or part of the diaspora here in Denmark) that see it so black and white as that. But yeah, nobody she knows likes anything about it nor supports it and she is baffled about it all and calls it pointless. Thankfully her family lives somewhere around Tel Aviv so they are ok for now. Can only hope the situation won't escalate further but it looks really bad
This is exactly how I feel.
For reference, I'm an American Jew and I know a lot of other Jews (NYC-area), and same. To be fair, I haven't discussed Israel with anyone who is ultra-orthodox, and they tend to be quite right-wing, but they are also a small minority of us Jews.
It's tough, though-- even though I myself am a leftist, I hear some leftists say things like "Ashkenazi Jews are evil." I'm not exaggerating-- that is a direct quote, as if I and my family and many friends (Ashkenazis who were born in the US, have never left the US, and have nothing to do with Israel) have anything to do with any of the bad shit that has happened to Palestinians. The only reason I even started paying attention to Israel to begin with is because people started hating me because of it and I figured I might as well learn what all the shit was about.
Of course, any time I call someone out for being antisemitic, they claim "being critical of Israel is not antisemitic," totally missing the fact that they're blaming an entire ethnoreligious group for the actions of a few.
It just gets so tiring. I'm sick of this stupid conflict that has nothing to do with me that I keep getting blamed for. I'm sick of hearing "Jews are Nazis." I'm a leftist because I believe (among many other things) that people shouldn't be judged by their ethnicity. How do these "leftists" not see that they're actively scapegoating Jews?
Of course, not all leftists are like this (if they were I wouldn't be one). But I am so saddened by all the hate towards Jews I regularly see in leftist spaces, and I'm someone who agrees that many of Israel's actions aren't appropriate.
Sorry to go off-- I just needed to get this off my chest. In general it seems antisemitism in the US has risen dramatically on both the right (with literal, self-identified nazis) and on the left (where we get blamed for everything Israel does). I'm mean, after 2001, leftists were good about calling out anyone claiming that Muslims are terrorists. Why don't Jews get the same support?
It really is difficult to have perspective while still being in it. We'll have to wait for the dust to settle. I was there in 2006 and I'd say this feels worse in some ways - maybe like the insanity that was 1995. But it certainly isn't going to be as prolonged as 2006.
Personally, I feel like this terminology was practically created (not literally but just in general) to make people treat things more black and white.
Very very few issues are black and white, especially when you start getting into the details. This conflict is one of them, and has bad actors on all sides who benefit from the violence and atrocities, and also a ton of extremists and arm chair experts.
It bothers me that every position like this now has to pre defend against a dumb name calling argument that's mostly been spawned by american political nonsense.
Well this tracks and will definitely not turn into more embitterment and calls for violence. For folks that are calling this a 2 sided conflict, it's like blaming an intern (Palestine) for sexual misconduct with an executive (Israel). The level of culpability is radically different, Israel is actively choosing war and misery.
I respect that this issue is not simple at all, and going to be presented in ways that are not true to the situation, but I don't think simplifying it to such an analogy is doing anyone any favors. This issue is vastly more complex than that.
I'm very not-well-read on Israel/Gaza/Hamas/etc... and I'm having trouble understanding exactly what is happening right now. Does anyone have a good source for information for people that need a primer on all this? The attack came from Hamas (based in Gaza?) and now is Israel at war with Gaza or just Hamas? What does that look like - are they invading Gaza as a whole or just attacking 'military' targets (are there military targets or is it a decentralized organization needing COIN ops)? How many people are part of or favorably view Hamas in Gaza? Is Hamas synonymous with Gaza? lots of questions
I think the talks of "war" are overblown. It is a very significant attack though and as someone who is well read on the conflict I cannot tell you where exactly this ends. There are reports of dozens of kidnapped civilians, families, kids and elderly who were taken from Israeli towns into Gaza. Reports of hundreds of Hamas militants infiltrating Israel and going into hiding. This is likely going to be devastating to Gaza as Israeli troops are going to enter Gaza to locate those civilians and tear down the Hamas. These is going to be so much suffering and violence to come, it just makes me want to cry.
As for popular support for Hamas - see here (poll from 2021 but unlikely to have changed significantly)
Hamas is the governing group in Gaza. They are the reasons whatever infrastructure and public services that exist under Israeli embargo get to the Palestinians in that area. Many Gaza people support their violence, while others disagree with it but are so dependent on the system there's no viable way to change it.
Gazan militants are embedded in civilization population areas and infrastructure - schools are a common place to launch rockets from, for example. They believe the only way to free Palestinians from the suffering under Israeli embargo is massive violence on civilians, "Sherman's march through Georgia was the only way to end the Civil War"-type belief. Whatever happens, a lot of civilians are going to die.
Do you know what area in Israel the family she stays with lives in?
A city between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem
Then they should be fine. The main risk for them are the rockets, but they'll be staying in bomb shelters for the duration