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Weekly Israel-Hamas war megathread - week of May 13
This thread is posted weekly - please try to post all relevant Israel-Hamas war content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Extremely significant events may warrant a separate topic, but almost all should be posted in here.
Please try to avoid antagonistic arguments and bickering matches. Comment threads that devolve into unproductive arguments may be removed so that the overall topic is able to continue.
Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center
U.N. Lowers Count of Women and Children Killed, Citing Incomplete Information (New York Times)
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Looking at the reports themselves, the previous report didn’t have any count for “men” or for “unknown,” so if you tried to calculate “men” yourself by subtracting out women and children then you would get it wrong. So the new report is a definite improvement. They calculate percentages for you, excluding the unknown deaths from the denominator.
It’s a very wonky update to make some infographics better, but of course everything about this is politically fraught, because of what the infographics are about.
I find this headline a bit misleading. The total number of deaths hasn't changed. What has changed is that they've positively identified a certain number of people in each category. There might very well be (and probably are) the same number or higher in each category as before. They are just showing us confirmed numbers with the unknowns separated out, instead of the unknowns being put into a category based on guessing. The title leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I agree with your comment and that this is an improved way of looking at this information, and I'm glad it's being looked at and talked about. It just feels like the headline wants people to get the impression it's "not as bad as we thought" which I find a harmful thing to imply.
I think it could be summarized as "we know a bit less than we thought." That is, depending on what you thought before about where the data came from and how much you trusted those particular stats. But I doubt this is much of an update for most people.
I'm inclined to give the headline a pass. It's pretty factual and it's hard to prevent all possible misreads.
Or lower. Your "probably" is based on nothing. We just don't know. What we do know is that the UN has changed the proportion of casualties and in the new breakdown, more men have died than in the old breakdown. But it could very well be that more women and children have died recently than in the beginning of the war, so it may end up the same like you're saying, but we just don't have enough information right now.
It's based on there being thousands of people missing but not yet declared dead. Hands can't move the heaviest rubble and they don't have tools to do it. We don't really need much more information to deduce accurately that people who are still missing are likely to be dead. That is a high probability, and not based on "nothing".
In the new numbers, men are dying at 2x the rate women are. If you apply the 2x rate to the old numbers, you would see it couldn't be possible. Therefore, if you assume the new numbers are more accurate, then it's likely women were over counted in the old numbers. Unless the distribution has changed a lot recently, which is why I'm saying we can't know.
Do the math.
The "new numbers" are working the same grand total or ~35k. That 35k does not include the thousands of people still under rubble, the unknown number of people in mass graves, or the people dying from disease and malnutrition. It eventually will. When the big number goes up, which it will, the numbers in all the categories go up.
Nothing in your original comment was clear about discussing numbers in the context of a greater than 35k denominator. If you want to compare to all deaths, reported and unreported, then you are not comparing like for like which is the point of the change in the UN numbers being reported. In which case why are you even discussing these UN numbers? It shouldn't matter to you then if 9k women died (old numbers) or 4.5k women died (new numbers) since there's an unknown amount that adds up to neither of those.
Apparently there are more issues with the death count:
Here’s the real problem with the U.N.’s revised Gaza death toll - Washington Post (Op Ed)
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It seems like the numbers becoming less reliable is what we should expect, given the circumstances.
For all the detriment this topic brings out I can certainly say it is MUCH easier discussing this topic here than it is on reddit. But perhaps that is only my experience
There's no downvoting and less people, so if people disagree, they can at least get to yell at each other directly. Downvotes can just end up silencing the minority opinion in the community.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/total-outrage-white-house-condemns-israeli-settlers-attack-on-gaza-aid-convoy
‘Total outrage’: White House condemns Israeli settlers’ attack on Gaza aid trucks
This is infuriating and unbelievable to see. What is going through the heads of these people to make them think doing something like this is ok?
"These supplies will give succor to the people who attacked our people."
Doesn't matter that it's inaccurate, doesn't matter that it's wrong.
"This is a thing I can do to strike those who struck us."
Is that not relatable, even if it's not how we'd want people to be?
I'm very very surprised that word about this kind of behaviour isn't spreading more. Ever since the start of the war we've had people, civilians and settlers alike, attempting to prevent aid from transferring to Gaza. People genuinely believe that it is their moral duty to not allow aid to arrive until the hostages are back home.
It's been peaceful protests for the most part so far, but the movement is more widespread than you'd think. I wouldn't be confident saying that the average person is exclusively for aid being sent, only the left leaning populace (what's left of it, at least).
I’m not really sure why the original link formatting wouldn’t work.
As Hamas returns to the north, Israel’s Gaza endgame is nowhere in sight (gift link)
I truly believe there is not, and has never been, a military solution in Gaza and that the Israeli government knows it. Netanyahu knows he is cooked as soon as this war ends, and possibly sooner if the right wing faction propping his government up decides to pull out. The continuation of this war is a political choice.
ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrant for Israeli and Hamas leaders, including Netanyahu (APNews)
Unsurprisingly, both sides find it unacceptable and consider it switching victims:
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US military says first aid shipment has been driven across a newly built US pier into the Gaza Strip (AP)
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