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Weekly Gaza megathread - week of June 3
This thread is posted weekly - please try to post all relevant Israel-Hamas war content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Extremely significant events may warrant a separate topic, but almost all should be posted in here.
Please try to avoid antagonistic arguments and bickering matches. Comment threads that devolve into unproductive arguments may be removed so that the overall topic is able to continue.
Ultra-Orthodox protesters block Jerusalem roads ahead of Israeli court decision on draft exemptions (AP News)
Between this, the internal coalition cracks, and the ceasefire agreement Biden proposes probably falling flat on it's face... I wouldn't be surprised if we're now going to see more instability within Israel itself, too.
To what extent are the orthodox divided regarding the Israeli conflict. I've heard of some sects that oppose the incursion into Gaza and even march with pro-Palestinian protestors, but also of others that support it, but refuse to allow their members to join the IDF so they can sit around and study the Torah and let others die for them, which sounds selfish in the extreme.
What is the orthodox viewpoint on the Gaza conflict, or is it something deeply divided even within their communities?
In my experience, the former groups you're referring to are generally anti-Israel and anti-zionism because their sect in one way or another does not believe Israel should exist as a state from a theological point of view. They are usually found outside of Israel but some live in Jerusalem and other cities - generally these are very fringe communities both in the country and around the world. The Naturei Karta are the most "extreme" of the bunch, and are the ones you tend to see marching with pro-Palestinian protestors.
I would hazard to say that the vast majority of Haredi/Orthodox Jews in Israel support the war and fit into the latter category. I am unsure about the split in the rest of the world. What you are describing when it comes to army service is a very hot topic here especially during this war, and hopefully they can soon reap what they sow. These communities don't mind at all sending others to fight wars for them while they sit around doing essentially nothing, which would be bad enough if not for the fact that they also comprise a large portion of settler factions that are a major reason this conflict is even still a thing. Orthodox Judaism is in my opinion around 50% responsible for the situation unfolding today with their utter disregard for common sense replaced by fanatic Zionism.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/8/many-casualties-as-israel-escalates-attacks-across-gaza
How Israel Pulled Off a High-Risk Hostage Rescue (WSJ)
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@Deimos Is it possible for this recurring thread to be renamed to something more neutral like just "Weekly Gaza megathread" or something? While I understand the choice of "Israel-Hamas war" back in October, at this point in the conflict it comes across as taking a side in a way it didn't before.
In what way?
I think framing the current events in Gaza as a war between Israel and Hamas frames the conflict in a way where Palestinians in Gaza are implied to be part of or allied with Hamas. Framing the current conflict in Gaza as "Israel fighting Hamas" is a very partisan framing that signals an agreement with/allegiance to Israel (more keenly so given current international reactions and Israel's recent offensive in Rafah) that I don't think is intended here. Back in October it was one thing, but the international context now I think makes it feel like a more one-sided title than ever.
Using the "Hamas" specifically excludes the average Palestinian/Gazan and using "Israel" is because the country of Israel is engaged in a war. Yes there are protests in Israel and a lot of detractors, but I'm not sure how it isn't Israel vs. Hamas? Should it be "Government of Netanyahu + IDF forces vs. Hamas leadership + the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades"?
It's also called the "Sino-Indian border dispute" because it's the countries and governments that are involved. There are nearly 3 billion people in these two countries combined though, so is it then unfair to call it "Sino-Indian" seeing as literally 2+ billion people probably want nothing to do with it?
Hope my tone isn't inappropriate, I am trying to understand your point of view, I promise! "Gaza war" seems to be what media generally calls it now though so I wouldn't mind in any case, by the way.
Most Palestinians are not part of Hamas, but they are who Israel is killing and displacing. Referring to it as the "Israel/Hamas war" downplays Israeli action against civilians by toeing the party line that everything they're targeting is Hamas. That's my line of reasoning. It's essentially doing the inverse of what calling it something like "Palestinian genocide" would.
You lost me there, because I think you could easily find reasonable evidence that Israel is behaving with unacceptable recklessness (and that is already outside of Israeli line of argumentation), but saying that they target civilians on purpose would imo clearly be taking a side as well.
edit: However I don't think that "Gaza war" specifically is partisan, to be clear, only this reasoning.
Oh I absolutely have no desire to portray my opinion as neutral here. I think what's happening in Gaza is a genocide. I suggested the most neutral title I could because I think a truly neutral title is better than one that signals agreement with a side I think is vile. I will freely admit I wouldn't be arguing for a title change if the title had been biased towards the side I agree with (though I'm sure someone else would've).
I was looking at the Wikipedia page and I noticed that there is a request to change to article title to Gaza War. How about we go by whatever Wikipedia decides?
That has the benefit of likely working for any future situation where the title of a thread is contentious.
We discuss this occasionally. Seems okay, but I favor something broader like “Middle East conflict.” The Houthis are still out there.
I wouldn't hate broadening the thread to include middle eastern conflicts more generally, but I just suggested the option that seemed closest to the current scope of this thread. I participated in earlier discussions of changing the thread's name, but I think it has become even more egregious to refer to this as "Israel-Hamas war" as the conflict progresses and having this as the title to a recurring thread sends a very strong allegiance to one party in the conflict that I don't think Tildes wants.
I'm ngl, I mostly just read this thread as a form of digital self-harm (I know I won't like a lot of thr comments but my brain needs stimulus and negative will do) and to tag malice where I think it's needed. I don't think the conversations about Palestine I've seen on Tildes are the ones I want to participate in. But I do think the degree to which this title has become less and less a neutral descriptor of what the thread is about is something that should be remedied.
On the flip side, changing it to Israel-Gaza makes it seem like the inhabitants of Gaza (Palestinians) have more agency over the war than they actually have.
I think Israel-Hamas does that but worse, but that's why I'd straight-up recommend just "Weekly Gaza megathread" -- it's a neutral description of the geographic area where these events are happening.
Dang, apologies for not seeing your suggestion in the original message. I agree that's a better name.