13 votes

Weekly Middle East war megathread - week of October 14

This thread is posted weekly - please try to post all relevant Middle East war content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Extremely significant events may warrant a separate topic, but almost all should be posted in here.

Please try to avoid antagonistic arguments and bickering matches. Comment threads that devolve into unproductive arguments may be removed so that the overall topic is able to continue.

23 comments

  1. [10]
    hungariantoast
    Link
    Israel is a rogue nation. It should be removed from the United Nations
    17 votes
    1. [10]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [8]
        bloup
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        To anyone who didn’t read the article: this is pretty much the only time Mehdi Hasan references Russia, North Korea, and Syria. You can decide for yourself if you think he’s “downplaying” the...

        To anyone who didn’t read the article: this is pretty much the only time Mehdi Hasan references Russia, North Korea, and Syria. You can decide for yourself if you think he’s “downplaying” the human rights abuses of these countries, but I definitely wouldn’t just take this person‘s word for it:

        Perhaps the biggest question of all: how is Israel still allowed to remain a member of the UN? Why has it not yet been expelled from an organization that it is relentlessly and shamelessly attacking and undermining? Sure, there are other human rights abusers that remain card-carrying members of the UN – Syria, Russia and North Korea, to name but a few – but none of them have killed UN employees en masse; none of them have sent tanks to invade a UN base; none of them have “refused to comply with more than two dozen UNSC resolutions”. It has been more than 60 years since any country in the world dared make the UN secretary general himself “persona non grata”.

        12 votes
        1. fraughtGYRE
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          The statement he makes here is at least arguably incorrect. UN peacekeepers were deliberately targeted and murdered during the Rwandan genocide. The largest casualty event was the torture and...

          The statement he makes here is at least arguably incorrect.

          none of them have killed UN employees en masse

          UN peacekeepers were deliberately targeted and murdered during the Rwandan genocide. The largest casualty event was the torture and murder of 10 Belgian peacekeepers who surrendered to Rwandan forces. Whether this counts as "en masse" depends - under the strict definition of "as a group" it certainly qualifies.

          none of them have sent tanks to invade a UN base

          During the Yugoslav wars, Bosnian Serbs supported by Federal Yugoslavia engaged in tank assaults against UN positions. Here I suppose one could argue that there is a degree of separation because the perpetrators were from Republika Srpska rather than the UN member state, though given the degree of support I find it a thin covering at best.

          In both cases the perpetrating states remained UN members.

          The UN is not the world police, it is a forum. Removing members saps legitimacy. Need I remind people of the absolute failure of the League of Nations? Every national departure from a body like the UN disfigures its purpose. No state has ever been expelled from the UN. Even at the height of apartheid, South Africa was simply refused its seat. It is simply an unprecedented and untenable move to make.

          21 votes
        2. [7]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [3]
            bloup
            Link Parent
            so like just to be clear: this article isn’t saying that Israel should be removed from the UN on the basis of human rights abuses. on the contrary, he is literally citing the fact that the UN does...

            so like just to be clear: this article isn’t saying that Israel should be removed from the UN on the basis of human rights abuses.

            on the contrary, he is literally citing the fact that the UN does not seem to be interested in removing the likes of North Korea, Russia, and Syria as a reason why nobody should expect the UN to remove Israel regardless of whatever happens to the Palestinian people.

            What he points out though is that not even any of these countries or any country pretty much really in the history of the UN has ever so consistently and so brazenly acted with such contempt towards the authority and mission of the UN as Israel has, and this article is literally just questioning why the UN continues to put up with it.

            so the reason why he doesn’t go into detail about the human rights abuses of these countries is it is actually totally irrelevant to the thesis that he’s presenting, which is “isn’t it weird that the UN lets one of its members just constantly undermine what it does and ignore its decisions” and not “Israel should be removed from the UN on the basis of human rights abuses comparable to Syria, Russia, and North Korea”

            7 votes
            1. [3]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. [2]
                bloup
                Link Parent
                Look I honestly don’t understand how you can read this article and not think that the author who wrote it probably believes pretty much all of the countries you named should not be in the UN...

                Look I honestly don’t understand how you can read this article and not think that the author who wrote it probably believes pretty much all of the countries you named should not be in the UN either. he literally identifies them as human rights abusers and suggests that their very presence in the UN to some extent attacks and undermines it:

                Why has it not yet been expelled from an organization that it is relentlessly and shamelessly attacking and undermining? Sure, there are other human rights abusers that remain card-carrying members of the UN – Syria, Russia and North Korea, to name but a few

                But nothing you have said addresses what the article is really about: whether or not any of these countries come anywhere close to being as brazen about it.

                8 votes
                1. [2]
                  Comment deleted by author
                  Link Parent
                  1. bloup
                    Link Parent
                    For what it’s worth, I don’t think people should just take Mehdi Hasan’s word for things either, and I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything. I just felt like his perspective here was not...

                    For what it’s worth, I don’t think people should just take Mehdi Hasan’s word for things either, and I’m not trying to convince anybody of anything. I just felt like his perspective here was not being represented accurately, and like his specific criticisms were going ignored.

                    4 votes
          2. [3]
            hungariantoast
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            The very next paragraph in his Wikipedia article says this:

            The very next paragraph in his Wikipedia article says this:

            Quotes from these sermons were first publicized by Peter Hitchens in 2012. When Hitchens reached out to Hasan for a comment, the latter replied these remarks had "been taken wholly out of context".[49] In 2019, Hasan apologized for these earlier statements, which he declared to "deeply regret" now, and called them "dumb", "ranty" and "offensive".[50][51]

            2 votes
            1. [3]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. [2]
                hungariantoast
                Link Parent
                Aside from his religious statements, the only other mention of any "not great things" he has said on his Wikipedia page is this: So what I see is a pattern of a man slowly breaking away from the...

                Aside from his religious statements, the only other mention of any "not great things" he has said on his Wikipedia page is this:

                In a 2020 series of tweets, Hasan expressed regrets for "having expressed offensive & illiberal views in the past on everything from homosexuality to abortion" and stated that they were views he no longer holds.

                So what I see is a pattern of a man slowly breaking away from the fundamentals of his religion and having the integrity and honesty to recognize and apologize for the things he used to believe and say.

                7 votes
                1. [2]
                  Comment deleted by author
                  Link Parent
                  1. hungariantoast
                    Link Parent
                    The Wikipedia article makes it pretty clear he held progressive opinions while he was still working at Al Jazeera. If anything, his opinions probably became more progressive because he moved to...

                    The Wikipedia article makes it pretty clear he held progressive opinions while he was still working at Al Jazeera. If anything, his opinions probably became more progressive because he moved to Washington, DC in 2015, which is about the most progressive place in the United States.

                    7 votes
      2. rosco
        Link Parent
        It's completely reasonable to write a piece calling out one nation, there have been plenty that have specifically issues with Russia, North Korea and Syria. Your points are classic whataboutism.

        It's completely reasonable to write a piece calling out one nation, there have been plenty that have specifically issues with Russia, North Korea and Syria. Your points are classic whataboutism.

        9 votes
  2. skybrian
    Link
    U.S. warns Israel it will withhold arms unless Gaza aid starts flowing (Washington Post) Leaking this seems like a political move. I suppose it’s good that they are gesturing at possibly doing...

    U.S. warns Israel it will withhold arms unless Gaza aid starts flowing (Washington Post)

    The Biden administration sharply intensified pressure on Israel this week to improve dire conditions for civilians in the Gaza Strip, warning that it would be forced to take punitive measures, potentially including a suspension of military aid, if the flow of humanitarian assistance is not increased within a month.

    In an Oct. 13 letter to senior Israeli officials, Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin demanded urgent steps to ensure that noncombatants have access to food and other necessities, blaming lawlessness and actions by the Israeli government in permitting a deterioration of conditions in Gaza, according to two officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss correspondence that had not been made public.

    Absent a change, Blinken and Austin cautioned, the administration would be obliged to take steps laid out under policies linking compliance with international norms to the provision of U.S. weapons and military assistance. The letter gives Netanyahu one month to comply, which would delay any action until after the U.S. presidential election.

    Leaking this seems like a political move. I suppose it’s good that they are gesturing at possibly doing something, though I don’t know if Biden would follow through even if Harris wins.

    But it would be convenient for Harris if it did turn out that way, with Biden taking the blame for cutting off Israeli aid before she starts office. It would change the status quo and then Israel and its supporters would have to try to justify resuming military aid.

    It may be that Israel decides that don’t need US military aid all that much, so the US loses a (fairly weak) point of leverage, but gains being a little less entangled in Israel’s wars.

    9 votes
  3. [6]
    stu2b50
    Link
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna175892 Sounds like Israel thinks it got Sinwar (by accident, too). Can’t say that the IDF hasn’t made a statement militarily post October 7th.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna175892

    Sounds like Israel thinks it got Sinwar (by accident, too). Can’t say that the IDF hasn’t made a statement militarily post October 7th.

    9 votes
    1. [5]
      goryramsy
      Link Parent
      I hope so. The world wakes to a better day if this architect of terror is dead.

      I hope so. The world wakes to a better day if this architect of terror is dead.

      6 votes
      1. [4]
        Eji1700
        Link Parent
        Outlets are starting to confirm it, so seems like he's dead. Not sure if this will actually improve/change the situation much though.

        Outlets are starting to confirm it, so seems like he's dead. Not sure if this will actually improve/change the situation much though.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          Tannhauser
          Link Parent
          In an ideal world, this would be a great offramp for the Gaza operation.

          In an ideal world, this would be a great offramp for the Gaza operation.

          6 votes
          1. Eji1700
            Link Parent
            Yep, and as much as I think people try to simplify the situation into good and bad, I'm also more than ready to admit that Netanyahu almost certainly doesn't see an advantage in that and being the...

            Yep, and as much as I think people try to simplify the situation into good and bad, I'm also more than ready to admit that Netanyahu almost certainly doesn't see an advantage in that and being the corrupt lunatic that he is, could very well just continue escalating.

            3 votes
        2. Interesting
          Link Parent
          The other big news today was that the 6 hostages (including Hersh Goldberg-Polin) killed a few weeks ago were the ones he had been keeping with him as his personal shield.

          The other big news today was that the 6 hostages (including Hersh Goldberg-Polin) killed a few weeks ago were the ones he had been keeping with him as his personal shield.

          5 votes
  4. skybrian
    Link
    US stealth bombers strike underground Houthi weapons sites in Yemen (Reuters)

    US stealth bombers strike underground Houthi weapons sites in Yemen (Reuters)

    The United States said it carried out strikes on Wednesday against five underground weapons storage facilities in Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen, in a strike that used B-2 stealth bombers against the Iran-aligned group for the first time.

    5 votes
  5. [2]
    Minori
    Link
    U.S. Indicts 2 Linked to Oct. 7 Cyberattack on Israeli Warning System

    U.S. Indicts 2 Linked to Oct. 7 Cyberattack on Israeli Warning System

    In February, the brothers shut down critical computer systems belonging to the Cedars-Sinai hospital in Los Angeles, causing emergency services to temporarily divert patients to other hospitals, according to the indictment. The brothers, who have been arrested and are in custody in an unspecified country, claimed at the time that the attack was in retaliation for Israel’s bombing of hospitals in Gaza.

    “Bomb our hospitals in Gaza, we shut down yours too, eye for eye,” they wrote on Telegram.

    Their actions were so damaging, and potentially life-threatening, that prosecutors have included one charge against Ahmed Omer that carries a maximum sentence of life in prison, the first time the United States has threatened a cybercriminal with such punishment.

    5 votes
    1. gary
      Link Parent
      It's a short article but this part from the beginning gives important context imo.

      It was early morning on Oct. 7, 2023, and Hamas fighters had just breached the Israeli border, when Ahmed Omer, a young Sudanese man with an aptitude for computers, launched a different kind of attack.

      Sitting at a computer, he mounted a long-distance cyberassault on the online early warning systems used in Israel to alert citizens to danger. The systems were briefly disabled, preventing potentially lifesaving warnings from reaching Israelis about Hamas’s deadly assault, in which about 1,200 people were killed and more than 200 abducted.

      It's a short article but this part from the beginning gives important context imo.

      5 votes
  6. skybrian
    Link
    As Israeli war on Hezbollah expands, rescuers in east reach their limit (Washington Post) ... ...

    As Israeli war on Hezbollah expands, rescuers in east reach their limit (Washington Post)

    Hezbollah’s earliest training and organizing in Lebanon took place [in Bekaa Valley], in this rural, largely agricultural valley that runs along Lebanon’s border with Syria, and the area has remained a critical foothold for the organization. Hezbollah granted a Washington Post reporter and photographer access to the Bekaa Valley and required that a member of the group accompany the team during their trip. Interviews were conducted independently and Hezbollah did not review any of The Post’s reporting.

    Israel has pummeled the region with hundreds of airstrikes over the past three weeks, targeting weapons stores, infrastructure and fighters. Thousands of civilians have fled west, while others have crossed into Syria. But unlike in southern Lebanon, where the Israeli military has told residents of specific villages to flee, no evacuation orders have been announced for towns and villages in this area, meaning the strikes come with little to no warning.

    ...

    Outside the Christian towns and villages of the Bekaa, which many here consider safe, much of the valley feels deserted. The region stretches across two administrative areas — Baalbek-Hermel and Bekaa — and is home to about a million people, according to United Nations figures.

    “They have become like ghost cities,” said Bachir Khodr, governor of Baalbek-Hermel. In the past three weeks, Israel has launched more than 680 strikes on the Bekaa, he said, citing figures from local authorities. More than 260 people have been killed, according to Lebanon’s Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between combatants and civilians.

    Along the main road to Baalbek, which boasts beautifully preserved ruins of one of the largest temples in the Roman Empire, there were several places that appeared to have been targeted by strikes. Shops, homes and warehouses were destroyed. [...]

    ...

    The area also saw strikes during the last war between Israel and Hezbollah, in 2006, but the munitions the IDF is using now are larger and more devastating, Chekieh said.

    “In 2006, only part of the building would collapse” in an airstrike, he said. “Now, the entire building is gone, collapsed on the ground,” and searching the wreckage from a single attack can take hours or days.

    4 votes
  7. skybrian
    Link
    Lebanese Christians, caught in crossfire, refuse to leave war zone (Washington Post) … …

    Lebanese Christians, caught in crossfire, refuse to leave war zone (Washington Post)

    While much of southern Lebanon falls under the de facto control of Hezbollah, the ancient valleys here hold a scattering of towns and villages that are predominantly Christian, Druze or Sunni Muslim. None of them have rallied to support Hezbollah. Their neutrality largely protected them during the first 11 months of the conflict, but now the war is creeping quickly toward them.

    While most residents have evacuated, people in some Christian towns — and their priests — are refusing to leave their homes again.

    Their reasons are a kaleidoscope of defiance, resolve and generational trauma. Some say they can’t afford to relocate. Some believe their presence deters attacks on their lands. Some fear they won’t be able to return.

    But religion offers only thin protection. In Ebel El Saqi, six miles from Qlaaya, the Rev. Gregorius Salloum, a Greek orthodox priest, was mortally wounded in an Israeli airstrike in September. Christian villages that have largely evacuated, such an Ain Ebel, have also been hit hard.

    Mass displacement under relentless airstrikes is testing Lebanon’s fragile sectarian balance. The Israeli air force has brought down entire buildings of displaced people in Christian areas to target single Hezbollah targets passing through the area, including in the north of the country.

    People here believed the conflict would escalate and stockpiled food. But they fear the coming winter and the security of fuel supplies, particularly if Israeli airstrikes continue cutting roads to and from the villages. If the fighting continues, it could become increasingly difficult to supply these villages with food and fuel, UNICEF spokeswoman Tess Ingram said.

    2 votes
  8. skybrian
    Link
    The US is investigating an unauthorized release of classified documents on Israel’s attack plans (AP)

    The US is investigating an unauthorized release of classified documents on Israel’s attack plans (AP)

    The United States is investigating an unauthorized release of classified documents that assess Israel’s plans to attack Iran, three U.S. officials told The Associated Press. A fourth U.S. official said the documents appear to be legitimate.

    The documents are attributed to the U.S. Geospatial Intelligence Agency and National Security Agency, and note that Israel was still moving military assets in place to conduct a military strike in response to Iran’s blistering ballistic missile attack on Oct. 1. They were sharable within the “Five Eyes,” which are the U.S., Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

    The documents, which are marked top secret, were posted to the Telegram messaging app and first reported by CNN and Axios. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

    2 votes