19 votes

'The Voice of the Dirtbag Left': socialist US comics Chapo Trap House

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71 comments

  1. [9]
    mike10010100
    (edited )
    Link
    Honestly, every time ChapoTrapHouse pops up, I'm reminded of how heavily they deny and downplay the Russian cyberattack on the 2016 election, and part of me can't help but wonder if their...

    Honestly, every time ChapoTrapHouse pops up, I'm reminded of how heavily they deny and downplay the Russian cyberattack on the 2016 election, and part of me can't help but wonder if their popularity isn't at least somewhat bolstered by Russian trolls, much like they did far-right personalities.

    The left doesn't need scumbags. We just need a spine. Scumbags rarely stand up for what they believe, and will often behave exactly the same no matter what their political beliefs: the second they're called out for something, they'll excuse it with "oh, well, we were just joking" or "well, we're just a comedy show and our opinions are above reproach because of it".

    IMO, it's not the conversation we need to have as a nation, and only contributes more to political divides. Not to mention their userbase/fanbase acts almost identically to those on forums like The_Donald. It feels less like a "comedy show", and more of a "propaganda outlet". Not implying that they get their talking points from some "official source", but more of a "if they didn't believe/do what they're believing/doing, they wouldn't be as big as they are now", because trolls wouldn't be as willing to bolster their platform.

    29 votes
    1. [8]
      kdtsh
      Link Parent
      I don't agree with a lot of what Chapo says and does, but don't you think it's a bit much to say that they're effectively a propaganda outlet? What if it just turns out that there are a lot of...

      I don't agree with a lot of what Chapo says and does, but don't you think it's a bit much to say that they're effectively a propaganda outlet? What if it just turns out that there are a lot of left-ish people in the US and the English-speaking world that like their particular brand of sarcastic and nihilistic/pessimistic political comedy? They're also not as big as people give them credit for.

      8 votes
      1. [4]
        Cosmos
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I'd say so. I went to the sub to point out a video they were going nuts over was heavily edited and did not in any way represent what actually happened. I warned them against spreading it because...

        I'd say so. I went to the sub to point out a video they were going nuts over was heavily edited and did not in any way represent what actually happened. I warned them against spreading it because it will not help their cause.

        They all just shouted me down and then the mods came in and banned me.

        Seems they have zero interest in finding truth and just want to spew bullshit. Sounds like propaganda to me.

        If that's not propaganda, then what is?

        Edit: Thread is locked, so I'll put the video in here.

        It was a clip of a bunch of children going to Feinstein's office to get her to support the green new deal. Here is the edited version The headline spins it as Feinstein showing "smugness and disrespect" towards the children. Biggest issue is at 1:40, you can hear Feinstein begin to say "here's my proposal..." and then it jumps to something else. They are taking out key parts of the discussion that completely change the tone.

        And here is a link to the full version they posted after getting called out, with more bullshit spin in the tweet.

        7 votes
        1. [3]
          alyaza
          Link Parent
          this feels like something where you should probably post the video (and thread, if possible) in question so we actually all know what you're talking about and don't just have to take your word for it.

          I'd say so. I went to the sub to point out a video they were going nuts over was heavily edited and did not in any way represent what actually happened. I warned them against spreading it because it will not help their cause.

          this feels like something where you should probably post the video (and thread, if possible) in question so we actually all know what you're talking about and don't just have to take your word for it.

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            Keegan
            Link Parent
            If s/he claimed The_Donald did that would proof be necessary? I trust my fellow Tilderino to not lie about something like this. Most of us come from Reddit and know what the moderation can be like...

            If s/he claimed The_Donald did that would proof be necessary? I trust my fellow Tilderino to not lie about something like this.

            Most of us come from Reddit and know what the moderation can be like there, especially in political subreddits.

            1 vote
            1. alyaza
              Link Parent
              what kind of question is that? yeah, i'd ask literally the same question if it was introduced into the conversation with no evidence, not least because it's common courtesy.

              If s/he claimed The_Donald did that would proof be necessary? I trust my fellow Tilderino to not lie about something like this.

              what kind of question is that? yeah, i'd ask literally the same question if it was introduced into the conversation with no evidence, not least because it's common courtesy.

              1 vote
      2. [3]
        mike10010100
        Link Parent
        So their fans all just happen to speak and act like channers and act in ways counter to the ideologies they claim to support? They have so much in common with The_Donald, it's not even funny....

        So their fans all just happen to speak and act like channers and act in ways counter to the ideologies they claim to support?

        They have so much in common with The_Donald, it's not even funny.

        They're also making 130k a month from Patreon, for a handful of hours of recording a week. They're pretty dang big.

        3 votes
        1. moocow1452
          Link Parent
          Do they really need to be agents of the Russians when it's more feasible that shock-jocking the right made them super popular, they got high on their own supply and have no sense of principles or...

          Do they really need to be agents of the Russians when it's more feasible that shock-jocking the right made them super popular, they got high on their own supply and have no sense of principles or responsibility with their medium outside of fight the bad guys?

          4 votes
        2. Whom
          Link Parent
          Edgelords exist in any political group. I don't know why this is so foreign. I don't happen to like it when other leftists are edgelords, but they're all over the place and they gather as they...

          Edgelords exist in any political group. I don't know why this is so foreign.

          I don't happen to like it when other leftists are edgelords, but they're all over the place and they gather as they react pretty sharply to how social justice communities on the internet have come to be. If you hang out on 4chan, you'll notice that there's a lot of leftists there...some are like me and just enjoy the format of the website but a lot more love Marx but want to make jokes using the n word.

          There's a lot of variety in opinions out there, that doesn't mean it's a Russian conspiracy.

          4 votes
  2. [46]
    Akir
    Link
    I've got to be honest here, is Chapo Trap House really a comedy show? From the podcasts of theirs that I have listened to, that sounds pretty much correct. Their podcast doesn't appear to be...

    I've got to be honest here, is Chapo Trap House really a comedy show?

    We’re 100% in favour of labour power and strikes. Unless this train strike inconveniences us. Then we’re going 100% reactionary.

    From the podcasts of theirs that I have listened to, that sounds pretty much correct. Their podcast doesn't appear to be scripted or have any prewritten jokes. It seems as if they really are 100% reactionary. It's honestly the reason why I avoid them even though they are pretty popular right now; I find their show to be just as bad as conservative talk radio. Nothing is well reasoned and everything is just an off-the-cuff epithet.

    13 votes
    1. [14]
      pleure
      Link Parent
      It definitely is a comedy show and they're definitely not reactionaries haha. But they are wealthy brooklynites and that's going to impact the exact kind of political views they hold (material...

      It definitely is a comedy show and they're definitely not reactionaries haha. But they are wealthy brooklynites and that's going to impact the exact kind of political views they hold (material interests trump all!).

      I'd recommend Street Fight Radio if you're interested in a more "authentic" for lack of a better word lefty podcast. the CTH crew started as guests on Street Fight.

      7 votes
      1. [12]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        It's a comedy show that's gotten high on its own supply. Over the past year or so they've seriously started to go off the reservation and their jokes seem less like light-hearted humor and more...

        It's a comedy show that's gotten high on its own supply. Over the past year or so they've seriously started to go off the reservation and their jokes seem less like light-hearted humor and more just being dicks. What used to feel like trolling for justice now just seems like trolling for trolling's sake with a veneer of leftism pasted over it so you don't have to feel bad about acting like a mean-spirited jerk.

        What's worse is they're not actually developing insights or evolving their thoughts, they just shoehorn every new development into the same formulaic rant about neoliberalism this and DNC rigging that. It's tired and lazy.

        13 votes
        1. [7]
          alyaza
          Link Parent
          that's really dirtbag leftism in a nutshell, lol. people who identify with the label seriously seem to overwhelmingly be leftist edgelords; in other words, the sorts of people who want to be able...

          Over the past year or so they've seriously started to go off the reservation and their jokes seem less like light-hearted humor and more just being dicks. What used to feel like trolling for justice now just seems like trolling for trolling's sake with a veneer of leftism pasted over it so you don't have to feel bad about acting like a mean-spirited jerk.

          that's really dirtbag leftism in a nutshell, lol. people who identify with the label seriously seem to overwhelmingly be leftist edgelords; in other words, the sorts of people who want to be able to call people retards, use nigger without consequence despite being middle-class white suburbanites, and line all the liberals up against the wall for being class traitors and revisionists while also upholding the immortal science of marxism-leninism and somehow trying to convert everybody to being socialists.

          5 votes
          1. [4]
            mike10010100
            Link Parent
            They cannot simultaneously be Marxist-Leninist/Socialist and want to say the n-word and r-word without consequences. That is a contradiction in ideology, and part of the reason why I just don't...

            They cannot simultaneously be Marxist-Leninist/Socialist and want to say the n-word and r-word without consequences. That is a contradiction in ideology, and part of the reason why I just don't get their whole schtick.

            It feels like they're less of a comedy show and more of a rolling dumpster fire.

            4 votes
            1. [3]
              kdtsh
              Link Parent
              I don't think they would ever claim to be Marxist-Leninist, nor would any Marxist-Leninists ever claim them as their own. There are a few of ML podcasts and they've never spoken fondly of CTH (Rev...

              I don't think they would ever claim to be Marxist-Leninist, nor would any Marxist-Leninists ever claim them as their own. There are a few of ML podcasts and they've never spoken fondly of CTH (Rev Left Radio and Proles of the Round Table come to mind). These ML podcasts often bring up a question which does not seem to have been answered yet, which is how CTH manages to simultaneously be a left-wing podcast interested in a socialist economy and worker power, while managing to bring in $1.5M a year from Patreon alone and seemingly not doing an awful lot to help the cause of socialism by way of organising and funding solidarity funds.

              They're a comedy show in as much as they want to make their listeners laugh, and I don't doubt that they do want to see a better, socialist world ... but they could do so much more than they do with the money they've earned literally just from recording 3-4 hours of material a week. I cancelled my subscription a few weeks ago and put it towards other Patreons for groups that actually do something.

              3 votes
              1. alyaza
                Link Parent
                oh yeah absolutely not. for as left-wing as their subreddit is, i'm pretty sure the only person further left in the quartet than basically social democracy is amber, and even then it's kinda...

                I don't think they would ever claim to be Marxist-Leninist, nor would any Marxist-Leninists ever claim them as their own.

                oh yeah absolutely not. for as left-wing as their subreddit is, i'm pretty sure the only person further left in the quartet than basically social democracy is amber, and even then it's kinda ambiguous? they're not especially radical when they actually discuss policies, and as i recall they have a tendency to actively scorn direct action.

                3 votes
              2. mike10010100
                Link Parent
                I mean it makes perfect sense if you see the similarities between their audience and The_Donald. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they were being propped up by people who are trying to divide...

                I mean it makes perfect sense if you see the similarities between their audience and The_Donald. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they were being propped up by people who are trying to divide American society.

          2. [2]
            NaraVara
            Link Parent
            Also apparently the entire discipline of economics is bourgeois nonsense, and questions about how we collectively decide what to produce, how much, and for whom will just magically take care of...

            Also apparently the entire discipline of economics is bourgeois nonsense, and questions about how we collectively decide what to produce, how much, and for whom will just magically take care of themselves if we just "abolish capitalism."

            4 votes
            1. kdtsh
              Link Parent
              Neither they nor any socialist really claims this. In fact, to come to this conclusion is to fundamentally misunderstand the arguments that most socialists make. Socialists (and Chapo to some...

              Neither they nor any socialist really claims this. In fact, to come to this conclusion is to fundamentally misunderstand the arguments that most socialists make. Socialists (and Chapo to some extent) raise very useful and serious questions about ideology and orthodoxy in the field of economics. 'Economics' is so often portrayed as a set of scientific facts about the world, when really it is a battleground of competing views about how capitalism and markets work, and whether any other economic systems could replace capitalism (among other things of course).

              The prevailing view in economics just presents its ideologically-motivated axioms as these scientific facts, which leads to the popular picture of 'economics' as a be-all-and-end-all of an entire discipline, rather than one set of assertions (sometimes backed with evidence, sometimes not) among a field of many. (And with that being the case, who could blame someone for calling mainstream economics 'bourgeois nonsense' anyway? It is at the very least easy to see how this view is bourgeois, i.e. a development of class society which exists by and for the capitalist class.)

              10 votes
        2. [4]
          mike10010100
          Link Parent
          It's also the exact formula the alt-right used during 2016 to convince people that "Bernie Bros" were a thing and that they should stay home and not vote because of the "DNC's betrayal",...

          It's also the exact formula the alt-right used during 2016 to convince people that "Bernie Bros" were a thing and that they should stay home and not vote because of the "DNC's betrayal", effectively handing Trump the win.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            pleure
            Link Parent
            This is a myth (ironically far more Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie supporters voted for Trump in 2016), Trump won because Clinton did not turn out the vote. Full stop. Any...

            This is a myth (ironically far more Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie supporters voted for Trump in 2016), Trump won because Clinton did not turn out the vote. Full stop. Any attempt to deflect from this (it was Russia! it was Bernie Bros! it was misogynists!) is just a distraction and will result in a Trump reelection as the DNC fails to adapt to the reality that milquetoast centrists are widely despised by the majority of the electorate.

            9 votes
            1. mike10010100
              Link Parent
              You're already twisting my words. I specifically said that they convinced people to stay home and not vote, not convinced them to vote Trump. It is not a distraction, it is a documented psyops...

              This is a myth (ironically far more Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie supporters voted for Trump in 2016),

              You're already twisting my words. I specifically said that they convinced people to stay home and not vote, not convinced them to vote Trump.

              Trump won because Clinton did not turn out the vote. Full stop. Any attempt to deflect from this (it was Russia! it was Bernie Bros! it was misogynists!) is just a distraction

              It is not a distraction, it is a documented psyops campaign waged online, and it's still happening to this day. Clinton was up against a propaganda outlet the likes we have never seen before, and it managed to convince enough of her voters in a handful of key counties to stay home enough that Trump could eke out a win.

              as the DNC fails to adapt to the reality that milquetoast centrists are widely despised by the majority of the electorate.

              I'd love to see the data you have supporting this. It's a line I see oft repeated but rarely substantiated.

              8 votes
            2. hhh
              Link Parent
              this is so misleading it borders on being malicious. I don’t know how you can say this with a straight face, especially after the mueller report explicitly stated that the russians /did/ stage a...

              Any attempt to deflect from this (it was Russia!) is just a distraction

              this is so misleading it borders on being malicious. I don’t know how you can say this with a straight face, especially after the mueller report explicitly stated that the russians /did/ stage a concentrated and widespread effort to get trump elected and to hurt hillary

              8 votes
      2. Akir
        Link Parent
        Sure, I'll give just about anything a try at least once.

        Sure, I'll give just about anything a try at least once.

    2. [28]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      ...yeah? of the four main members of the podcast three of them are comedians or basically comedians (amber's more of a serious marxist writer) and they make literally no claims to being a serious...

      I've got to be honest here, is Chapo Trap House really a comedy show?

      ...yeah? of the four main members of the podcast three of them are comedians or basically comedians (amber's more of a serious marxist writer) and they make literally no claims to being a serious podcast of any kind. they might tackle serious issues and have actual takes, but their whole shtick is basically doing the same shit they'd do two drinks in at a brooklyn bar, and their tour shows are about as close to stand-up comedy as a podcast can really get without just being stand-up comedy outright, lol.

      5 votes
      1. [24]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        I'd question "serious" as an adjective there. If she had published this piece on Medium instead of Jacobin it would have been impossible for me to parse whether it was satire or not. Look at this:...

        serious marxist writer

        I'd question "serious" as an adjective there. If she had published this piece on Medium instead of Jacobin it would have been impossible for me to parse whether it was satire or not. Look at this:

        I attended a painfully nerdy and shamefully self-congratulatory event to “Draft Warren” into the presidential primaries. It was a farcical gathering of Type-A Tracy Flicks, barely worth the free booze, and even the assembled nerds quickly realized this Lisa Simpson of a dark-horse candidate wasn’t as inspiring to the masses as she was to them, and we all moved on.
        And what we moved onto was Bernie — our indefatigable, unwavering, incorruptible Bernie! And we very nearly won, despite despicable sabotage from the DNC. Bernie was the leader of a movement that fundamentally ended the Cold War of the American mind; he changed the face of American politics, acted as midwife to a nascent insurgent left, and achieved more in a few months of mass political action than Elizabeth Warren did in her whole political life.

        I supported Sanders in 2016 too, but dear God this kind of fanboyism is this cringe-inducing. Especially the bolded part.

        8 votes
        1. [4]
          alyaza
          Link Parent
          she's a (syndicated?) columnist for a couple places like the baffler, which is why i use that adjective. as far as i'm aware she's the only one of the four which really does any actual writing or...

          she's a (syndicated?) columnist for a couple places like the baffler, which is why i use that adjective. as far as i'm aware she's the only one of the four which really does any actual writing or theorizing on shit in an actually on-the-cuff way outside of the show, with the sorta exception of the book.

          3 votes
          1. [3]
            NaraVara
            Link Parent
            I honestly see her as a leftist Ann Coulter type of grifter. Yeah she's a professional writer, but her writing is hacky and pandering towards the worst impulses of her target market and I suspect...

            I honestly see her as a leftist Ann Coulter type of grifter. Yeah she's a professional writer, but her writing is hacky and pandering towards the worst impulses of her target market and I suspect she knows it.

            4 votes
            1. [2]
              alyaza
              Link Parent
              ironically i think a lot of leftists would say she's the least grifty of the lot, since she at least does something leftist while the other three have done shit like share a stage with sam hyde...

              ironically i think a lot of leftists would say she's the least grifty of the lot, since she at least does something leftist while the other three have done shit like share a stage with sam hyde and buddy up to people (like the cumtown podcast hosts) who are friends of decidedly un-kosher people like weev. but there's a lot of discourse around whether chapo is something that's actually good or not in the left period, not just on the hosts.

              4 votes
              1. NaraVara
                Link Parent
                That's a fair point. But that actually concerns me more because she winds up bringing the noxious types of twitter drama into places, like the DSA, where people are actually trying to get work done.

                That's a fair point. But that actually concerns me more because she winds up bringing the noxious types of twitter drama into places, like the DSA, where people are actually trying to get work done.

                1 vote
        2. [19]
          mike10010100
          Link Parent
          Don't forget, this whole line of: ...is something pushed by alt-right trolls to cause divide among the left. I get that some people might have sore feelings from last time, but dang is that...

          Don't forget, this whole line of:

          despite despicable sabotage from the DNC

          ...is something pushed by alt-right trolls to cause divide among the left. I get that some people might have sore feelings from last time, but dang is that hyperbolic.

          2 votes
          1. [15]
            Diet_Coke
            Link Parent
            Uh ... No. The DNC put their fingers on the scales for Hillary so plainly, so clearly, so obviously that they've had to reform the entire primary system to be more fair. From the shenanigans at...

            Uh ... No. The DNC put their fingers on the scales for Hillary so plainly, so clearly, so obviously that they've had to reform the entire primary system to be more fair. From the shenanigans at the Nevada caucus, to New York's incumbent protection policy, to the spurious claim that the Sanders campaign hacked the internal voter database and subsequent removal of their legitimate access during an important period of the primary, the interference is well documented. Maybe you just weren't paying attention during the primary, but this kind of gaslighting doesn't help anybody.

            13 votes
            1. [14]
              NaraVara
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              This is a pretty pernicious narrative that mostly comes from people who have never been politically active before interpreting not-at-all unusual types of mismanagement and process failures as...

              This is a pretty pernicious narrative that mostly comes from people who have never been politically active before interpreting not-at-all unusual types of mismanagement and process failures as malicious conspiracies. It's just The Paranoid Style of crypto-fascist politics imported to nominal leftists.

              It's a fair criticism to say there is a lot of corruption and a system this opaque to outsiders and neophytes is broken, but taking the leap from that to say it's was "rigged" for Hillary is absolute nonsense. Clinton was an insider and understanding how to take advantage of broken processes through knowledge of how the system works and manipulating the media to present your messaging in a favorable light is the whole point of being an insider candidate. That's literally what a competent political campaign does. It's how you measure effective campaigning.

              Bernie's campaign was pulled together at the last minute by a bunch of amateurs with shoestrings and bubble-gum. It's impressive what they managed to do, but of course they were going to fuck things up when things got going. Obama was severely disadvantaged by going up against connected insiders too, but he had a competent campaign staff that anticipated the challenges and addressed them. Bernie was running with a bunch of people who had never managed a campaign bigger than a statewide race in Vermont.

              Canvassing for Obama was a master class in organizing a bunch of random people into going out there with a consistent message, making them aware of exactly what they needed to do to get Obama the win, and spreading that knowledge around to every voter you could. Canvassing for Bernie was a frustrating exercise in herding cats with people not understanding the importance of doing routine data entry, people going out there without having been trained on what to do or say, call sheets and turf lists that hadn't been properly filtered meaning the same houses would get knocked on multiple times in a week. It was a comedy of errors that only got worse and worse as his prospects of winning began to fade. The difference in discipline and focus was night and day.

              If the fanboys put half the energy they dedicate to blaming others for his loss towards actually figuring out ways to win as an underdog, Bernie would be wiping the floor with the rest of the competition this year. Instead they prefer to engage in endless whinging about how things aren't fair, as if achieving a political revolution was ever going to be straightforward, as if power would concede without demand, as if the way to get a sympathetic ear from anyone is to be an angry jerk about it. . .

              This sort of scrub mentality isn't indicative of someone that's playing to win, it's the mentality of someone who gets off on being a victim by making excuses for their failures instead of finding solutions to fix them. Perpetual victims don't fix problems, they prefer to lose because the idea of winning against their enemies is so far away for them that they prefer to dope themselves with millenarian fantasies about how the bad guys winning is good actually, because this time people with really see how bad it can get and they'll finally throw off their chains.

              9 votes
              1. [4]
                Fdashstop
                Link Parent
                You know what gets me? The people who generally say Bernie had the election rigged against him and that he was robbed will consistently deny that a full-on disinformation campaign by a foreign...

                You know what gets me? The people who generally say Bernie had the election rigged against him and that he was robbed will consistently deny that a full-on disinformation campaign by a foreign government played a role in Clinton losing.

                7 votes
                1. [3]
                  mike10010100
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  It's almost like they're.....gasp....part of the disinformation campaign! Either that or they've bought into it so much that they're willing to ignore the corpus of evidence that's been presented...

                  It's almost like they're.....gasp....part of the disinformation campaign!

                  Either that or they've bought into it so much that they're willing to ignore the corpus of evidence that's been presented to the public about how extensive this campaign was. But that's precisely why disinformation campaigns are so effective online: when everyone is an anonymous voice, the "true believers" and the "shit-stirrers" are effectively the same camp.

                  ...funny how the ChapoTrapHouse folks don't believe any of this was all that effective...

                  3 votes
                  1. [2]
                    kdtsh
                    Link Parent
                    You're speaking in innuendo here, and it's not entirely clear what you're trying to imply. What do you mean that they are part of the disinformation campaign? And what do you mean it's funny how...

                    You're speaking in innuendo here, and it's not entirely clear what you're trying to imply. What do you mean that they are part of the disinformation campaign? And what do you mean it's funny how the Chapo Trap House folks don't believe the disinformation campaign was effective?

                    To me, it sounds like you're inferring that Chapo are either Russian agents or useful idiots. Which is a hell of a claim.

                    6 votes
                    1. mike10010100
                      Link Parent
                      I was going for more "useful idiots", but just look at my top-level comment for more discussion around that.

                      I was going for more "useful idiots", but just look at my top-level comment for more discussion around that.

              2. [9]
                Diet_Coke
                Link Parent
                More gaslighting. The new DNC Chair Tom Perez even admitted the primary was rigged (https://observer.com/2017/02/dnc-chair-candidate-tom-perez-admits-democratic-primaries-rigged/) before having to...

                More gaslighting. The new DNC Chair Tom Perez even admitted the primary was rigged (https://observer.com/2017/02/dnc-chair-candidate-tom-perez-admits-democratic-primaries-rigged/) before having to 'correct' his very plainly spoken statement. It's just true.

                7 votes
                1. [8]
                  NaraVara
                  Link Parent
                  What he was talking about was very obviously in reference to the thing I noted above: Jumping from that to claiming there was a fix in to put Clinton as the nominee, or that her win was...

                  What he was talking about was very obviously in reference to the thing I noted above:

                  It's a fair criticism to say there is a lot of corruption and a system this opaque to outsiders and neophytes is broken, but taking the leap from that to say it's was "rigged" for Hillary is absolute nonsense.

                  Jumping from that to claiming there was a fix in to put Clinton as the nominee, or that her win was illegitimate is absurd and you'd have to be going through an extremely desperate process of motivated reasoning to read it that way. There is literally no context where people take tweet that literally unless they're trying to play some gotcha bullshit.

                  3 votes
                  1. [7]
                    Diet_Coke
                    Link Parent
                    I literally don't see how you can say that. Clinton spent the years from 2008 until 2016 creating a symbiotic relationship with the DNC. In 2011 Tim Kaine resigned the chairmanship of the DNC. The...

                    I literally don't see how you can say that. Clinton spent the years from 2008 until 2016 creating a symbiotic relationship with the DNC. In 2011 Tim Kaine resigned the chairmanship of the DNC. The National Co-Chair of Clinton's 2008 campaign, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, succeeded him. Clinton's campaign then made the DNC dependant on it for fundraising for lower level candidates, as detailed by Donna Brazile. The Clinton campaign even had control over DNC messaging about the primary. It's not a coincidence that Kaine then got the VP pick.

                    You can deny until you're blue in the face (or fingers in this case) but you are just simply wrong.

                    8 votes
                    1. [6]
                      NaraVara
                      Link Parent
                      Interesting how your argument has pivoted from asserting that her win was illegitimate to asserting that an establishment candidate had establishment support. That’s quite a move of the goalposts....

                      Interesting how your argument has pivoted from asserting that her win was illegitimate to asserting that an establishment candidate had establishment support. That’s quite a move of the goalposts.

                      Extra fun because I already addressed this:

                      Clinton was an insider and understanding how to take advantage of broken processes through knowledge of how the system works and manipulating the media to present your messaging in a favorable light is the whole point of being an insider candidate. That's literally what a competent political campaign does. It's how you measure effective campaigning.

                      4 votes
                      1. [5]
                        Diet_Coke
                        Link Parent
                        It's not a pivot, it's more evidence. Yes, the establishment candidate has establishment support. They put their fingers on the scale for her in s thousand different ways. You're just going to...

                        It's not a pivot, it's more evidence. Yes, the establishment candidate has establishment support. They put their fingers on the scale for her in s thousand different ways. You're just going to obfuscate and gaslight, I'm done.

                        6 votes
                        1. [4]
                          mike10010100
                          Link Parent
                          None of which you can seem to readily articulate. And he's not gaslighting, he's literally just holding to your own initial claims.

                          They put their fingers on the scale for her in s thousand different ways.

                          None of which you can seem to readily articulate.

                          And he's not gaslighting, he's literally just holding to your own initial claims.

                          1. [3]
                            Diet_Coke
                            Link Parent
                            Everyone who claims the Democratic establishment did not do everything they could to ensure Clinton won the primary is, in fact, gaslighting. I've not only articulated several ways that they did...

                            Everyone who claims the Democratic establishment did not do everything they could to ensure Clinton won the primary is, in fact, gaslighting. I've not only articulated several ways that they did so, I've articulated that I'm done with the conversation.

                            3 votes
                            1. [2]
                              mike10010100
                              Link Parent
                              He is not claiming any such thing. He readily admits that an establishment candidate had establishment support. But this is a far cry from the idea that the primaries were "rigged". At the end of...

                              Everyone who claims the Democratic establishment did not do everything they could to ensure Clinton won the primary is, in fact, gaslighting.

                              He is not claiming any such thing. He readily admits that an establishment candidate had establishment support.

                              But this is a far cry from the idea that the primaries were "rigged". At the end of the day, she got far more votes.

                              I've not only articulated several ways that they did so, I've articulated that I'm done with the conversation.

                              But after those ways were refuted, you dropped it entirely and continued asserting your original point about the primaries being rigged. And if you're done with the conversation, feel free not to reply.

                              1 vote
                              1. Grawlix
                                Link Parent
                                I'm not quite sure I follow. I don't see much of a difference between the primaries being "rigged" and the primary system giving a distinct advantage from the very beginning to a specific...

                                I'm not quite sure I follow. I don't see much of a difference between the primaries being "rigged" and the primary system giving a distinct advantage from the very beginning to a specific establishment candidate.

                                To be clear, I'm not equivocating between the DNC primary and foreign interference in our election, nor do I think it was some heinous and surreptitious plot, but I just think the point is that a lot of people were frustrated that the primaries were, well, frankly undemocratic. Yes, Hillary got more votes, but everyone here is agreeing that she had an advantage from the start as an establishment candidate, with establishment support.

                                3 votes
          2. [3]
            Eva
            Link Parent
            It's literally true; haven't you read the e-mail leak from a few years back? I'll be real with you, I'm not a Sanders fan whatsoever (though I'm not a Clinton fan for that matter, either), but...

            It's literally true; haven't you read the e-mail leak from a few years back? I'll be real with you, I'm not a Sanders fan whatsoever (though I'm not a Clinton fan for that matter, either), but it's not like the statement is without evidence.

            5 votes
            1. [2]
              NaraVara
              Link Parent
              It's almost a truism that almost none of the people citing "the email leak" have actually read the email leak outside of some random out-of-context quotes cited by people with an axe to grind.

              It's almost a truism that almost none of the people citing "the email leak" have actually read the email leak outside of some random out-of-context quotes cited by people with an axe to grind.

              3 votes
              1. Eva
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                It'd be a bit stupid to not read it, given how easily accessible they are, double-so given that they're more important than the public.resource.org Swartz email archive that I've also read through...

                It'd be a bit stupid to not read it, given how easily accessible they are, double-so given that they're more important than the public.resource.org Swartz email archive that I've also read through for virtually no reason other than being fond of Swartz.

                No axe to grind here, just a Lessig fan who was interested in them.

                1 vote
            2. Removed by admin: 2 comments by 2 users
              Link Parent
      2. [3]
        Akir
        Link Parent
        I suppose so, I've just never heard of a comedy show with so little structure. It didn't seem like they came in with so much as a prewritten joke, let alone any kind of plan. It seemed more like a...

        I suppose so, I've just never heard of a comedy show with so little structure. It didn't seem like they came in with so much as a prewritten joke, let alone any kind of plan. It seemed more like a generic talk show rather than a comedy show.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          None of the comedy podcasts I listen to (Nerdist/ID10T, You Made It Weird, Bill Burr's Monday Morning, Bertcast, Your Mom's House, etc...) have any real structure or pre-written jokes. They aren't...

          None of the comedy podcasts I listen to (Nerdist/ID10T, You Made It Weird, Bill Burr's Monday Morning, Bertcast, Your Mom's House, etc...) have any real structure or pre-written jokes. They aren't standup routines in podcast form, they are generally just comedians shooting the shit, talking about whatever piqued their interest that day with their guest (if they have one), and being naturally funny.

          2 votes
          1. Akir
            Link Parent
            You have the exact opposite experience as me. But I guess we can just mark this down as "different strokes for different folks".

            You have the exact opposite experience as me. But I guess we can just mark this down as "different strokes for different folks".

            1 vote
    3. [2]
      NaraVara
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      If you haven't checked out Relentless Picnic yet, I highly recommend it. It's like the anti-Chapo. They're also lefty, but deeply introspective, thoughtful, and with positive senses of humor that...

      If you haven't checked out Relentless Picnic yet, I highly recommend it. It's like the anti-Chapo. They're also lefty, but deeply introspective, thoughtful, and with positive senses of humor that comes from actually caring about what's happening. The episodes Ragnarok, The Swarm, and Shallow Banquet are good ones to start with.

      Unfortunately they only release one episode every few months right now.

      4 votes
      1. Akir
        Link Parent
        I started listening to them and even just a few minutes in I am enjoying it. It's a pretty on-key recommendation

        I started listening to them and even just a few minutes in I am enjoying it. It's a pretty on-key recommendation

        3 votes
    4. kdtsh
      Link Parent
      It's not supposed to be well-reasoned. It comes from the same sort of humour as something like the Bill Maher show, except it's got lefty in-jokes and memes. Also that quote is obviously a joke....

      It's not supposed to be well-reasoned. It comes from the same sort of humour as something like the Bill Maher show, except it's got lefty in-jokes and memes.

      Also that quote is obviously a joke. Actually, it's a joke at the expense of people that would truly believe that they think that way. People can think that it's funny or not, but if they don't like their particular brand of humour then that's just a matter of taste (honestly it's probably a mark of good taste if you're not totally taken away by their style of humour, but to each their own). There are plenty of reasons to criticise Chapo other than whether they're sincere or not - like having a hell of a lot of money but not doing much to actually organise or help fund groups and movements that need money to function.

      2 votes
  3. [15]
    no_exit
    Link
    CTH is down there with the worst of the left, they're social democrats cosplaying as MLs with none of the redeeming qualities of either.

    CTH is down there with the worst of the left, they're social democrats cosplaying as MLs with none of the redeeming qualities of either.

    5 votes
    1. [14]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      man if you think chapo is down there with the worst of the left, i have to admire how few terrible people on the left you've had to interact with because with a few exceptions even the worst...

      man if you think chapo is down there with the worst of the left, i have to admire how few terrible people on the left you've had to interact with because with a few exceptions even the worst people in the broader chapo community are usually in the better half of leftists i've interacted with online purely on the basis that they generally don't want to roll over all counterrevolutionaries with tanks and put liberals against the wall

      4 votes
      1. [13]
        mike10010100
        Link Parent
        Where exactly are these people? What on Earth kind of communities are you interacting with?

        Where exactly are these people? What on Earth kind of communities are you interacting with?

        1. [12]
          alyaza
          Link Parent
          do y'all just like, not interact with reddit leftists at all? most of the leftist subreddits that exist are overrun by or have significant populations of tankies and other absolutely nutty people...

          Where exactly are these people? What on Earth kind of communities are you interacting with?

          do y'all just like, not interact with reddit leftists at all? most of the leftist subreddits that exist are overrun by or have significant populations of tankies and other absolutely nutty people who will absolutely tell you to your face that they want to kill liberals or that not being sufficiently left wing enough makes you a revisionist or some equally asinine shit. this is really not that unusual, and you don't exactly have to stray that far to find people of the sort. we're not talking deep-ops far right deep diving; you can probably find these people if you load up /r/LSC or /r/CTH or even /r/socialism and /r/communism.

          3 votes
          1. [11]
            mike10010100
            Link Parent
            I'd love to see some examples of highly upvoted instances of this.

            I'd love to see some examples of highly upvoted instances of this.

            1. [10]
              alyaza
              Link Parent
              you're going to find few and far between examples of this, but here's a thread teeming with dipshits who think the holodomor was the result of peasants and not the soviet government, here's a...

              highly upvoted instances of this.

              you're going to find few and far between examples of this, but here's a thread teeming with dipshits who think the holodomor was the result of peasants and not the soviet government, here's a thread that is a tire fire of people debating whether or not killing people in the revolution is cool and good actually, here's a smaller thread full of tankies and anarchists hashing out whether or not anarchism is a reactionary tendency or some bullshit like that, etc.

              6 votes
              1. [9]
                mike10010100
                Link Parent
                Okay, but, again, where are the explicit calls to violence like we see on the right-leaning subreddits that for some reason reddit considers "valuable". Again, I'm a firm believer that...

                Okay, but, again, where are the explicit calls to violence like we see on the right-leaning subreddits that for some reason reddit considers "valuable".

                Again, I'm a firm believer that ChapoTrapHouse and its fanbase are mostly trolls. Their style of...existence, tends to attract that type of person. But also, considering how hard both the Chapo hosts and their fanbase denies any Russian influence in the 2016 election, and considering how we have documented evidence that Russians bolstered both the far-left and the far-right in order to destabilize the West, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they were paid trolls.

                1 vote
                1. [5]
                  apoctr
                  Link Parent
                  If you take a look at the second link through ceddit there are several calls or support for violence that are clearly popular in the sub. That some are removed is due to active moderation, but...

                  Okay, but, again, where are the explicit calls to violence like we see on the right-leaning subreddits

                  If you take a look at the second link through ceddit there are several calls or support for violence that are clearly popular in the sub. That some are removed is due to active moderation, but still show the underlying attitudes of the subreddit:

                  Now this may be a hot take but hear me out...........people who are responsible for the death and misery of millions of people should face the consequences 🤗

                  Not removed, 324 upvotes, in context to calling for the murder of government/the rich.

                  what do you propose to do with fascists, counter-revolutionaries, rapists, serial murderers, capitalist police, and child molesters?
                  the reality is that not everybody can be redeemed and reeducated
                  you talk about killing political enemies as if we are sharpening our knives and salivating when the truth is that it will be a regrettable necessity but it is either that or the changes will be undermined

                  Removed, 65 upvotes, calls for killing police officers as a "necessity".

                  It's not sociopathic. Trust me, if I cut loose on Reddit about how I really feel, I wouldn't be on Reddit anymore. I've got rage to spare. I'm just not willing to indulge in it at the expense of losing the larger game. We lose if our communities start getting shut down.

                  Not removed, 104 upvotes, in response to a removed comment stating "wanting to hang those responsible for the suffering of millions of people isn't sociopathic".

                  3 votes
                  1. [4]
                    mike10010100
                    Link Parent
                    Yes, ChapoTrapHouse is filled with scummy trolls pretending to be left-leaning people. I completely agree.

                    Yes, ChapoTrapHouse is filled with scummy trolls pretending to be left-leaning people.

                    I completely agree.

                    1. [3]
                      apoctr
                      Link Parent
                      The amount of upvotes they receive and general lack of criticism suggests it's the prevailing attitudes of the subreddit. What evidence is there that they're all trolls?

                      The amount of upvotes they receive and general lack of criticism suggests it's the prevailing attitudes of the subreddit. What evidence is there that they're all trolls?

                      3 votes
                      1. Amarok
                        Link Parent
                        Ever notice that the argument about trolls/bots is in itself a brilliant way to destroy any kind of progress on these conversations? It doesn't matter if you're dealing with the left, because...

                        Ever notice that the argument about trolls/bots is in itself a brilliant way to destroy any kind of progress on these conversations? It doesn't matter if you're dealing with the left, because 'russian bots did all the voting' and it doesn't matter if you're dealing with the right, because 'it's all trolls.' Each side uses the bots/trolls aka 'evil other' or 'boogeyman' as a convenient blinder so they can discount any kind of public feedback/activity that threatens their world view.

                        Each side accuses the other of marshaling armies of hundreds of thousands in seconds, complete with state backing, to instantly and forever zerg every topic they don't agree with on every website and every single community and every single video and review. Wow, clearly I need to be working at one of these bot operations, because they've got their shit together better than anyone, anywhere ever has. Must be a sweet paycheck in it too, employing that many people and keeping them quiet. I bet they get paid a lot more than facebook's moderators, and probably get far better benefits, too. I wonder where they advertise for workers.

                        I frankly don't believe in trolls or bots. They don't exist, they are red herrings with little appreciable effect that is statistically insignificant. Just because 4chan or russia manages to pull off the occasional raid does not mean that raids are omnipresent or effective.

                        It's one of those things I'm just plain sick of seeing in discussions. Not that I'm sniping at you, I'm just pointing out how this particular kind of discussion can never get anywhere. I think of this like an evolution of Godwin's Law. The first person to mention nazis, bots, astroturfing, or trolls automatically loses the argument. ;)

                        5 votes
                      2. mike10010100
                        Link Parent
                        They ban/delete criticism. The evidence is that they speak like channers and T_D folks. That and they act in ways that aren't in line with the ideologies they claim to be proponents of.

                        They ban/delete criticism.

                        The evidence is that they speak like channers and T_D folks. That and they act in ways that aren't in line with the ideologies they claim to be proponents of.

                2. [3]
                  alyaza
                  Link Parent
                  you didn't specify that they had to be "calls to violence," but nevertheless: just from one of those threads (and i probably missed some). let's not act like all of these people in these threads...

                  Okay, but, again, where are the explicit calls to violence like we see on the right-leaning subreddits that for some reason reddit considers "valuable".

                  you didn't specify that they had to be "calls to violence," but nevertheless:

                  I would totally kill for the revolution. We just don’t have a revolution. Their is no movement to kill for.

                  The tweet paints a very simplistic picture of a revolution, which are always inherently violent. Some enemies aren’t going to get those three other walls and a roof.

                  I just came out of a 3 day reddit suspension, so i won't go into too much detail about what i think should happen to Nazis, but I take a more Soviet line here.

                  Revolution isn't a dinner party. Thinking that the ruling class will just give up their power and will not resort to violence to prevent themselves from being overthrown is idealistic and a sentimental daydream. Just look at what happened in Chile. No mercy for the capitalists or any of their lapdogs if they don't completely surrender and give up what they owe.

                  We're not gonna be building gulags and guillotines for nothing.

                  I'm not really against the idea of a forceful cultural purification of reactionary elements. Worked pretty well for China.

                  “We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.”

                  just from one of those threads (and i probably missed some). let's not act like all of these people in these threads are sunshine and rainbows, or that these aren't explicit calls for violence just because they're coming from LARPers who probably don't even do any sort of leftist activism. most right-wing people who say they're going to bomb abortion clinics or kill muslims on places like T_D are also LARPers who are probably afraid of guns.

                  2 votes
                  1. [2]
                    mike10010100
                    Link Parent
                    Okay, if we're going to play the semantics game, originally I asked for proof of: So far you haven't really proven this point, but to respond to your quote, again, I'm firmly of the belief that,...

                    you didn't specify that they had to be "calls to violence," but nevertheless:

                    Okay, if we're going to play the semantics game, originally I asked for proof of:

                    that they want to kill liberals

                    So far you haven't really proven this point, but to respond to your quote, again, I'm firmly of the belief that, rather than being LARPers, these people are trolls (paid and unpaid, mixed with useful idiots) meant to cause divisions and be the thing the alt-right can point to to justify their hatred of the left.

                    In addition, you've only cited ChapoTrapHouse and no other subreddit. It's almost like the home of the "scumbag left" is full of....scumbags.

                    1 vote
                    1. alyaza
                      Link Parent
                      i honestly have no idea why you're trying to argue with me considering that i'm not trying to argue with you at all here, but i really don't want to get into another protracted argument on...

                      i honestly have no idea why you're trying to argue with me considering that i'm not trying to argue with you at all here, but i really don't want to get into another protracted argument on something that i don't care about and have absolutely no investment in since i'm already in like four of them right now.

                      2 votes
  4. Deimos
    Link
    Alright, this thread's almost entirely tangential bickering going in circles now, so I think that's enough.

    Alright, this thread's almost entirely tangential bickering going in circles now, so I think that's enough.

    5 votes