It's come out that the shooter was killed 30 seconds after firing the first shot (source), and still managed to kill/injure dozens of people. I'm not sure how you prevent this in any other way...
It's come out that the shooter was killed 30 seconds after firing the first shot (source), and still managed to kill/injure dozens of people.
I'm not sure how you prevent this in any other way except this person not having had access to a gun in the first place.
That's one good step towards eliminating this. You also need to eliminate the voice of those calling for this violence (Trump and friends), improve prospects for Americans, and provide free and...
I'm not sure how you prevent this in any other way except this person not having had access to a gun in the first place.
That's one good step towards eliminating this. You also need to eliminate the voice of those calling for this violence (Trump and friends), improve prospects for Americans, and provide free and convenient access to health care.
You're far less likely to carry out an act like this if you have a bright future and more of your basic needs guaranteed.
Edit:
It's like the "fire triangle". Someone with no hope is the fuel, hate speech the heat, and guns the oxygen.
If America were a tabula rasa, this idea makes sense. But the American tabula is far from rasa. In fact it has more guns than people. If you somehow had a political coalition capable of passing...
I'm not sure how you prevent this in any other way except this person not having had access to a gun in the first place.
If America were a tabula rasa, this idea makes sense. But the American tabula is far from rasa. In fact it has more guns than people. If you somehow had a political coalition capable of passing such an amendment, how many sheriffs would actually enforce it? Can you imagine how large ATF would have to get?
And most important, do you think all Americans would comply? No. Certainly there would be some abstentions. The result would be an America where the law abiding citizens have guns and the people most willing to break the law have a bunch.
Totally unironically I think we have a better hope of making America less of dystopian nightmare than we do of relieving Americans of their guns. Maybe we should offer the youth better prospects than decades of futile toiling for a multinational conglomerate bent on exploiting them. Perhaps then dying in a blaze of glory to avoid this would lose its appeal.
police were on scene in one minute, and this person still racked up that many people:
Dayton police Lt. Col. Matt Carper told reporters multiple officers happened to be in the immediate vicinity when the shooting happened, which allowed them to neutralize the shooter in less than a minute.
this should surprise literally nobody: the shooter is 24, white, male. honestly, what are the odds that he has some white supremacist/far-right literature laying around or on his computer? the GOP...
this should surprise literally nobody: the shooter is 24, white, male. honestly, what are the odds that he has some white supremacist/far-right literature laying around or on his computer?
the GOP is blaming video games, by the way, in case you were convinced they might actually do something about guns.
His whole Twitter page was full of pro-Trump, pro-white-nationalist shit. This is an epidemic. EDIT: I was thinking of the El Paso shooter. My bad. Too many fucking mass murders.
His whole Twitter page was full of pro-Trump, pro-white-nationalist shit.
This is an epidemic.
EDIT: I was thinking of the El Paso shooter. My bad. Too many fucking mass murders.
I think @mike10010100 was probably talking about the El Paso shooter, not the Dayton one. It's disgusting that we have to worry about confusion between the multiple mass shooters from the same day.
I think @mike10010100 was probably talking about the El Paso shooter, not the Dayton one.
It's disgusting that we have to worry about confusion between the multiple mass shooters from the same day.
You're right. That was my mistake. I was thinking of the El Paso shooter. Although the Dayton shooter was also young, white, and male, so I guess we'll just have to see how that shakes out. But...
You're right. That was my mistake. I was thinking of the El Paso shooter.
Although the Dayton shooter was also young, white, and male, so I guess we'll just have to see how that shakes out. But I'll bet on it.
I've been seeing this article around Twitter, along with other reports that he was incredibly mysogynistic. There's also been some screenshots popping up of sites saying that the el Paso shooter...
I've been seeing this article around Twitter, along with other reports that he was incredibly mysogynistic. There's also been some screenshots popping up of sites saying that the el Paso shooter was a Democrat, along with other people saying those sites were clearly edited after the fact (which it looks like they were). It's so hard to figure out what's going on when everyone is rushing to post a take and fit it into a greater narrative. It's honestly exhausting
I'm sure the truth will shake out eventually. Until then, disregard unreliable sources, and FFS ignore the alt-right. They tried to lie their way through the whole "caustic cement milkshakes"...
I'm sure the truth will shake out eventually. Until then, disregard unreliable sources, and FFS ignore the alt-right. They tried to lie their way through the whole "caustic cement milkshakes" thing, and the media ate it hook, line and sinker.
I'm just worried that in the absence of a compelling narrative otherwise the Republicans will use this to 1) deflect and not do a single thing about gun control and 2) move to pass more...
I'm just worried that in the absence of a compelling narrative otherwise the Republicans will use this to 1) deflect and not do a single thing about gun control and 2) move to pass more legislation against anti-facism
That's completely false. Dayton shooter's Twitter account wasn't far right at all. It's archived on here. It goes to show that there's something more than racism causing this tragedies.
That's completely false. Dayton shooter's Twitter account wasn't far right at all. It's archived on here. It goes to show that there's something more than racism causing this tragedies.
No, it goes to show there are more causes to gun terror than just racism. However racism and white supremacy does seem to be a motivating factor in many terror attacks as of late.
It goes to show that there's something more than racism causing this tragedies.
No, it goes to show there are more causes to gun terror than just racism. However racism and white supremacy does seem to be a motivating factor in many terror attacks as of late.
I agree with the last part (and with the first too, but kind of misses the point). I may have jumped to quickly to a conclusion with the "it goes to show...". But this is what I mean: After the...
I agree with the last part (and with the first too, but kind of misses the point).
I may have jumped to quickly to a conclusion with the "it goes to show...". But this is what I mean:
After the Dayton shooting happened, everyone assumed it was related to white supremacy, quite logically because, as you say, the trend of young, white males becoming mass shooters has been inspired by white nationalism. This could be just an odd case. But it could be too that the causal reason behind this late "trend" is not white supremacism, and that it just acted as a kind of catalyst, justifying and enabling this behavior and even exalting it. And that reason could be the reason behind the growth of white supremacism lately among that demographic group.
I don't know that possible reason, although I think it might be related to alienation, isolation and a switch of values that underemphasizes personal responsibility. It could be a different reason, and I could be wrong as well.
But white supremacism can't be the cause of its own growth so, one way or the other, even if it this kind of shootings were a direct cause of white supremacism and this was an odd case, there would be something deeper behind. And, if this wasn't an odd case, it could give some insight into that cause, because the Dayton shooting surely wasn't a consequence of white nationalism.
It would be interesting too to take a look for the points in common between school shooters, specially young, white males, and white supremacist shooters.
The fact is that the Dayton shooting wasn't a terrorist act. This was a disturbed person who had a long history of having a "kill list" of people in school, calling other girls "sluts", etc. etc....
The fact is that the Dayton shooting wasn't a terrorist act. This was a disturbed person who had a long history of having a "kill list" of people in school, calling other girls "sluts", etc. etc.
We cannot classify all mass killings the same way. This could have just been initiated by the other mass killings happening at the same time. He also killed his family, if you recall, which shows that he doesn't seem politically motivated.
I'm not arguing that he was politically motivated. Do we know that the El Paso shooter wasn't a disturbed person? And as I've said somewhere else, I'm not trying to absolve anyone from anything....
I'm not arguing that he was politically motivated. Do we know that the El Paso shooter wasn't a disturbed person?
And as I've said somewhere else, I'm not trying to absolve anyone from anything. Both shooters are criminals, and should be treated and/or remembered as that. But to me, white nationalism doesn't seem a cause, it's just the final push. The reasons why one thinks he does something aren't always the deeper reasons. And I don't think that the presence of absence of political self-justifications means it's a completely different phenomenon.
I guess all I'm saying is that racism as the final cause of shootings with a racist self-justification is a simplistic view which doesn't help understand anything new. We already know that white supremacism is a criminal ideology. But why is this happening now? Could it have a connection to similar phenomena which aren't wrapped in white supremacist rethorics?
I agree with the point you are making, but in some sense it feels like two different problems. It's not very different than a few years ago when we saw many young people being radicalized online...
I agree with the point you are making, but in some sense it feels like two different problems. It's not very different than a few years ago when we saw many young people being radicalized online by ISIS. The things that push people to radicalize (or at least make them susceptible) are of course distinct from the effects of that radicalization. We should be seeking to alleviate the former and mitigate the latter.
The El Paso shooter likely felt isolated or alienated for whatever reason (and there is the 'cause') and found a community in the alt-right and places like 8-chan. The community he found happened to be a cesspool of hatred against immigrants, glorifying other murders, and encouraging further violence. Once he was sucked into this community he gets further radicalized and its a self-feeding cycle until this happens. We should be addressing the initial isolation (or anxiety or whatever it is), but I don't think the scrutiny off these hateful communities is misplaced; rather, we should pretty forcefully be condemning them and recognizing the role they had to play in this tragedy which is what I think the media is mostly doing.
The situation becomes more complex when you recognize the proximity of these alt-right/hateful communities to current political power that is perpetuating the conditions that lead to this sense of isolation. I just don't think you can really clearly separate the two in this situation.
Yes, I agree. I'm just saying that we shouldn't stop there. This kind of "resurgence of the far right" is happening not only in the US, but throughout the Western world. I think the media is wrong...
we should pretty forcefully be condemning them and recognizing the role they had to play in this tragedy
Yes, I agree. I'm just saying that we shouldn't stop there. This kind of "resurgence of the far right" is happening not only in the US, but throughout the Western world. I think the media is wrong when they explain it with withe supremacism being a murderous ideology. We already know that, that's no explanation and the lack of a convincing explanation of why it's spreading and what does that mean makes them stronger. Condemnation is necessary, but mere condemnation without going deeper can be even dangerous.
I agree there are different subjects here that are very intertwined and hard to tell apart, though.
Yes, because, for one, Russia is working overtime to ensure that this ideology spreads online. It is spreading because the internet makes it faster and easier for people to spread fake news than...
This kind of "resurgence of the far right" is happening not only in the US, but throughout the Western world.
Yes, because, for one, Russia is working overtime to ensure that this ideology spreads online. It is spreading because the internet makes it faster and easier for people to spread fake news than ever before.
Are you not seeing the shit that Fox News and Trump spews on a daily basis? Could it have anything to do with the rhetoric that the right is imposing on the US?
But why is this happening now?
Are you not seeing the shit that Fox News and Trump spews on a daily basis?
Could it have anything to do with the rhetoric that the right is imposing on the US?
Yes, as a catalyst. But having to do is not the same as causing. It's not as easy as the right imposing this or that. And in many Western countries other than the US, the far right is growing as...
Yes, as a catalyst. But having to do is not the same as causing. It's not as easy as the right imposing this or that. And in many Western countries other than the US, the far right is growing as well.
One thing is to recognize the damage that US Republicans are currently doing in that direction, and a different one is blaming them for the phenomenon altogether. That kind of simple, easy explanations that blame everything on the will of one bad actor are detrimental to stop the growth of the far right, as don't really explain anything. It can be summarized into "the right grows because of the right", that's void of meaning.
Why is it growing around the globe? Because Russia is actively causing it to happen via social media and traditional propaganda channels. They wish to see the demise of all liberal democracy...
Why is it growing around the globe? Because Russia is actively causing it to happen via social media and traditional propaganda channels.
They wish to see the demise of all liberal democracy across the globe. They have literally stated as much.
They are tapping into the pain felt by everyone participating in a late-stage-capitalist society that is too afraid to move onto the next step and throw off the shackles of unfettered capitalism.
Spot-on. And that's what we can change, the root issue, even if Russia may be watering the plant. Blaming Russia will do little to overcome this decomposing capitalism. In which, by the way, the...
They are tapping into the pain felt by everyone participating in a late-stage-capitalist society
Spot-on. And that's what we can change, the root issue, even if Russia may be watering the plant. Blaming Russia will do little to overcome this decomposing capitalism. In which, by the way, the Russian citizens are immersed too. The issue is a global one, regardless on how each State tries to take advantage on it, and only a global solution will be worth it. If Russia were to disappear tomorrow, nobody would have less problems, just a different expression of the same ones. That is, no one except the Russians.
I mean, it'll ensure that we can peacefully transition to socialism instead of fascism. That's the entire point of focusing on the Russian influence. I mean sure? I don't really see what your...
Blaming Russia will do little to overcome this decomposing capitalism.
I mean, it'll ensure that we can peacefully transition to socialism instead of fascism. That's the entire point of focusing on the Russian influence.
In which, by the way, the Russian citizens are immersed too.
I mean sure? I don't really see what your point is here...
The issue is a global one, regardless on how each State tries to take advantage on it, and only a global solution will be worth it.
Didn't you just get finished talking about how this is a situation unique to the US? And now it's a global one?
If Russia were to disappear tomorrow, nobody would have less problems
Actually, yes, they would. A ton less problems. Trump wouldn't get his online troll army, and these people would stop using online social media mechanisms to sew discord, hate, and bigotry.
It's not a situation unique to the US, but we're talking about the specific manifestation of global problems in the US. I don't get this, and I don't think I will. We must have quite different...
It's not a situation unique to the US, but we're talking about the specific manifestation of global problems in the US.
I mean, it'll ensure that we can peacefully transition to socialism instead of fascism.
I don't get this, and I don't think I will. We must have quite different ideas of what socialism means. This will ensure at most a war with Russia. I don't get how the US is pointing towards socialism, the Democrats would hardly pass even as moderate right in my country. The Democrats left wing is equivalent to the center right in many other places, regardless of what the American right likes to believe.
Edit: if Russia is having a negative influence in the West, which I think is true, it's also true that the US is having a terrible influence in Europe, to the point that political discussion is dominated by topics in American politics that sometimes are little to no relevant here, and the American perspective, specially from the American left, which is pretty right wing for almost anyone else's standards, is supplanting other more interesting and relevant perspectives. But I don't think blaming the US is productive, the US is doing what every State does given the opportunity. If the US, Russia and China were to disappear, no one would be better off. It's dangerous, although easy and sometimes politically convenient, to mistake problems for their concrete and apparent expression.
I really don't like the Russian state and what it's doing with its influence, but if I were anti Russian on that basis, I would have to be anti American as well. In fact, most of the left in my country is fiercely anti American.
Isn't this the exact same thing that right-wingers say when a far-right individual commits a mass shooting, which the left are always very eager to label as terrorism (people were pretty much...
Isn't this the exact same thing that right-wingers say when a far-right individual commits a mass shooting, which the left are always very eager to label as terrorism (people were pretty much doing it in this very thread before it turned out he was a self-identified leftist)?
I'm not saying you're wrong - there definitely is a difference between terrorists and the mentally ill - but I think it's too early to say this is definitely a case of the latter.
i would say that it is actually overwhelmingly likely a case of the latter given that the police--almost three days after it happened--still have no reason to suspect he actually did it for...
I'm not saying you're wrong - there definitely is a difference between terrorists and the mentally ill - but I think it's too early to say this is definitely a case of the latter.
i would say that it is actually overwhelmingly likely a case of the latter given that the police--almost three days after it happened--still have no reason to suspect he actually did it for political reasons and he seemingly left no manifesto or indication of doing it for political reasons and had a history of being a violent individual with clearly abnormal thoughts that led to his expulsion from school, personally. sometimes a person who has problems is just a person who has problems and not doing it for some ulterior political motive: stephen paddock for example was most likely a right-wing extremist, but his extremism as far as we're aware is probably not the main reason why he killed 59 people in las vegas.
If a mentally ill individual is driven by politics or ideology to commit a mass shooting, are they a terrorist? They evidently committed the heinous crime in the service of a cause, but without a...
If a mentally ill individual is driven by politics or ideology to commit a mass shooting, are they a terrorist? They evidently committed the heinous crime in the service of a cause, but without a manifesto or a stated motive they fail to actually raise any awareness to their point of view. Ultimately, I think it's a question of semantics. I would agree that Paddock was almost certainly motivated by his political views, and I daresay there's a good chance that the Dayton shooter was too. Are either terrorists, though? It comes down to how you want to define the word.
Yes. This, however, was not driven by ideology. He murdered his family and random people, and had a long history of calling people denigrating names in school like "slut", implying that he feels...
If a mentally ill individual is driven by politics or ideology to commit a mass shooting, are they a terrorist?
Yes. This, however, was not driven by ideology. He murdered his family and random people, and had a long history of calling people denigrating names in school like "slut", implying that he feels rejected by women, as well as a "kill list" of people in school.
Nothing about his ideology seems to have directly caused him to target these people particularly.
Are either terrorists, though? It comes down to how you want to define the word.
Sure, but it's widely agreed that if it's politically motivated, it's terrorism, if it isn't, it's not.
Is the shooting politically motivated? Then it's terrorism. Is the shooting motivated because of someone's rejection by women? Then it isn't.
Isn't this the exact same thing that right-wingers say when a far-right individual commits a mass shooting, which the left are always very eager to label as terrorism (people were pretty much doing it in this very thread before it turned out he was a self-identified leftist)?
Is the shooting politically motivated? Then it's terrorism.
Is the shooting motivated because of someone's rejection by women? Then it isn't.
You're right, copycat shootings are also a thing, as well as personally-motivated acts of violence. But the overwhelming number of mass shootings have been driven primarily by a right-wing...
It goes to show that there's something more than racism causing this tragedies.
You're right, copycat shootings are also a thing, as well as personally-motivated acts of violence.
But the overwhelming number of mass shootings have been driven primarily by a right-wing political ideology.
That's simply not true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019 Edit: it's true only for politically motivated shootings, which are a minority.
But the overwhelming number of mass shootings have been driven primarily by a right-wing political ideology.
Okay, yes, so of the shootings that are politically motivated, 2/3 comes from right-wing ideologies. We can both discuss why people feel the need or the desire to use violence/guns to quell their...
Okay, yes, so of the shootings that are politically motivated, 2/3 comes from right-wing ideologies.
We can both discuss why people feel the need or the desire to use violence/guns to quell their pain, while also discussing why the right-wing ideologies tend to foster so much more political violence. It's really two separate discussions.
I agree it's two separate discussions. Although it must be pointed out that it's about why the American political right currently fosters more violence. This is very linked to the context. BTW I'm...
I agree it's two separate discussions. Although it must be pointed out that it's about why the American political right currently fosters more violence. This is very linked to the context.
BTW I'm quite on the left, although I'm not really sympathetic to any current tendencies. But I have no interest whatsoever to defend the political right.
I agree, but that's specific to the current situation in the West at most. Look at Venezuela, as a counter example (and of course there's plenty of right wing violence there too, I'm not arguing...
I agree, but that's specific to the current situation in the West at most. Look at Venezuela, as a counter example (and of course there's plenty of right wing violence there too, I'm not arguing otherwise).
shooter's sister and her boyfriend were just found dead. (alt confirmation). fun stuff, really cool that we're just going to do nothing about this because people would rather worship a gun death...
shooter's sister and her boyfriend were just found dead. (alt confirmation). fun stuff, really cool that we're just going to do nothing about this because people would rather worship a gun death cult and a recent interpretation of what the right to bear arms means than not have their children and friends fertilize the earth with blood twice a week.
edit: also to be clear, i believe these two are accounted for in the 9 dead?
The gun death cult is downstream of the ethno-nationalist death cult. The only reason they care so much about guns is because it lets them indulge in this fantasy of fighting off the foreign,...
The gun death cult is downstream of the ethno-nationalist death cult. The only reason they care so much about guns is because it lets them indulge in this fantasy of fighting off the foreign, darkie hordes.
The odds were high, but looking at his Twitter account it doesn't seem to be the case. And please, don't misconstrue this as support for white nationalism or trying to blame it on the left. But I...
The odds were high, but looking at his Twitter account it doesn't seem to be the case.
And please, don't misconstrue this as support for white nationalism or trying to blame it on the left. But I think it goes to show that there's something deeper than just racism going on.
It’s really bad situation. I was considering tagging this post as recurring.weekly. And if you count even small mass shootings, you get more than one per day.
It’s really bad situation. I was considering tagging this post as recurring.weekly. And if you count even small mass shootings, you get more than one per day.
Aussie here. Your shit's fucked. If 2 people get shot that counts as a mass shooting in my book. If nobody gets hit but someone is shooting in an area with people that's a mass shooting.
small mass shootings
[from the link] in which four or more people are shot
Aussie here. Your shit's fucked. If 2 people get shot that counts as a mass shooting in my book. If nobody gets hit but someone is shooting in an area with people that's a mass shooting.
as of now: the dayton shooter appears to be a leftist, however, his ideology does not appear to have been a reason for the shooting. the police have not given a motive as far as i'm aware, but...
as of now: the dayton shooter appears to be a leftist, however, his ideology does not appear to have been a reason for the shooting. the police have not given a motive as far as i'm aware, but classmates are saying he was kind of batshit and his previous history included a rape list, a kill list, and an attempt of some sort to shoot up his school previously, so it's not like this was something from the blue.
Ugh.. A lot of folks I've seen on the left have been really emphasizing the white supremacy aspect of the el paso shooter over mental illness or guns. it's an attractive argument especially when...
Ugh.. A lot of folks I've seen on the left have been really emphasizing the white supremacy aspect of the el paso shooter over mental illness or guns. it's an attractive argument especially when considering the violence inherent in ethnonationalism, but this complicates that and will make it difficult for folks who jumped to that as their first argument (tbh myself included) to adjust their already posted hot takes.
I think you're right in that ideology wasn't involved anywhere near as much in the Dayton shooter. It's hard to say without a manifesto but from what I've seen from their tweets & history they don't have any sort of consistent ideology, much less a consistent leftist one.
my guess, just based on what people are saying about him, is that he was actually a genuine leftist with not-pegged-down beliefs (he did hang out in lots of leftist spaces and leftist twitter...
my guess, just based on what people are saying about him, is that he was actually a genuine leftist with not-pegged-down beliefs (he did hang out in lots of leftist spaces and leftist twitter power users interacted with him a lot)--but he was also pretty clearly a danger to people before he became one, based on the fact that he was threatening people for years before this, and people just didn't do anything about it either because they couldn't force action to be taken or because they didn't think he would actually commit violence.
I was just recently reading the Current Affairs article responding to the sortition bomber. I remember sort of rolling my eyes at it. It's pretty jarring to browse through this person's twitter...
I was just recently reading the Current Affairs article responding to the sortition bomber. I remember sort of rolling my eyes at it.
It's pretty jarring to browse through this person's twitter and run across retweets that I might have liked (if I used twitter) rather than the usual xenophobic and proto-fascist stuff that these mass shooters usually contemplate. He even retweeted Current Affairs. Who is this fucking person?
I was about 4 articles deep in that issue, got the impression that they were in a bit of a rush to put that one out just based on the topics. I guess I should say that I just didn't take it topic...
I was about 4 articles deep in that issue, got the impression that they were in a bit of a rush to put that one out just based on the topics. I guess I should say that I just didn't take it topic seriously at the time.
Even now it's a bit of a stretch, we still don't have a motive, the shooter has been revealed to have been something of a scumbag. It's just weird to me that someone with that character would be attracted to the same political ideas as I am. I suppose there are an infinite number of routes to the same conclusion, some of which are somehow based in lunacy and misogyny.
It's seems clear that the Dayton attack wasn't ideologically motivated. But maybe, the motivation was similar to what is making racism so attractive for some people in the US, specially young...
It's seems clear that the Dayton attack wasn't ideologically motivated. But maybe, the motivation was similar to what is making racism so attractive for some people in the US, specially young white males.
I'm all for stopping racism, but to really do that we have to know the deeper causes behind this trend. Not as a way to absolve or pity individuals, which are fully responsible for their actions. But to stop it from growing more and getting worse.
I'm almost certain the root root cause of these is a very general & overwhelming sense of despair about the future. I mean shit, the world isn't great right now. Climate change is a HUGE pressure...
I'm almost certain the root root cause of these is a very general & overwhelming sense of despair about the future. I mean shit, the world isn't great right now. Climate change is a HUGE pressure on everyone who acknowledges it's happening - and I think we're going to see more folks on the right turn to eco-facism like the El Paso shooter as the effects of climate change become more real. That despair is there regardless of ideology; it just gets weaponized more by those on the right. Unfortunately, I think the only way you can even begin to address this problem is by fundamentally restructuring society in some way.
Fully, totally and completely agree with that. I would agree that it's unfortunate in that it's very difficult. But at the same time, if we do it and do it right, it can be a great opportunity for...
Fully, totally and completely agree with that. I would agree that it's unfortunate in that it's very difficult. But at the same time, if we do it and do it right, it can be a great opportunity for building a society in which people can find self-realization.
yep! We've just got to make sure that as people start to realize that current mainstream ideologies have completely and utterly failed to address climate change, that the new ideologies we adopt...
yep! We've just got to make sure that as people start to realize that current mainstream ideologies have completely and utterly failed to address climate change, that the new ideologies we adopt are fair and just.
Also we have to question ourselves. Not the fundamental goal of a more humane society, shared by people of many different ideological tendencies, but the whole rest. Only constant questioning can...
Also we have to question ourselves. Not the fundamental goal of a more humane society, shared by people of many different ideological tendencies, but the whole rest. Only constant questioning can keep one on track and enable one to detect errors and mistakes before they become part of our identity and we become unable to see them for what they are anymore.
I think there's a pretty strong tendency to consider oneself as the Bearer of Truth™, and all of us, myself the first one, have to fight that tendency in ourselves.
here's some actual evidence to back this up. again i reiterate though: there isn't any evidence to suggest this is political in the sense that he did it because of his leftism, and there's remains...
here's some actual evidence to back this up. again i reiterate though: there isn't any evidence to suggest this is political in the sense that he did it because of his leftism, and there's remains no stated motive by police; he just happens to be a leftist who shot a place up as of now.
press conference now says police still have no motive. just based on how things worked out for the el paso shooter, i'm going to guess that this isn't a politically-motivated shooting if they...
press conference now says police still have no motive. just based on how things worked out for the el paso shooter, i'm going to guess that this isn't a politically-motivated shooting if they haven't turned up anything which would suggest that there seems to be a political motive after over 24 hours. it's not impossible, of course, but political motivations for shootings usually don't take very long to suss out, especially with someone as online as this person was.
There really isn’t anything ideologically opposed between ethno-nationalism and economic leftism. Plenty of “class not race” types are mighty comfortable hanging out in racist spaces.
There really isn’t anything ideologically opposed between ethno-nationalism and economic leftism. Plenty of “class not race” types are mighty comfortable hanging out in racist spaces.
VICE has a piece on the band the shooter was in now: EXCLUSIVE: DAYTON SHOOTER WAS IN A “PORNOGRIND” BAND THAT RELEASED SONGS ABOUT RAPING AND KILLING WOMEN fun times!
Oh wow, what an article. This is probably the best real-life parallel of internet radicalization I've ever seen. These are the exact same things people say about /pol/ and Voat and 8chan and so...
Oh wow, what an article. This is probably the best real-life parallel of internet radicalization I've ever seen.
Creekbaum, who has been writing and recording music under the name Menstrual Munchies for more than five years, says he did it mostly as a joke and now is sickened that Betts apparently took it all seriously.
“I feel shitty having let him be in the band, doing those lyrics,” Creekbaum said. “Because I know, like, whereas I saw it as a joke — like, ‘Let's play this and we’ll shock some people,’ and then the people that we know laugh — he didn't see it as a joke. He was like, ‘Fuck, yeah. We're gonna do this.’”
“It's like, Jesus Christ, how much of this was like real life for him?” he said.
“It's just the music we love, you know, like, it's fun to play. It's energetic and there's nothing else like it. So we play it,” Walton, 29, said. “And then we get people like this, who, you know, are fucking sick in the head, who get into our scene and ended up killing nine people and almost, you know, putting a bad name on our scene. And that's not fair for the rest of us.”
These are the exact same things people say about /pol/ and Voat and 8chan and so on. "No, the genocide memes are just our way of being funny, being offensive is our sense of humor! I didn't know anyone could possibly be taking it seriously!"
Also, wow, I do not suggest clicking on the link to the archived copy of their bandcamp page. They really should have put a warning on that.
It's come out that the shooter was killed 30 seconds after firing the first shot (source), and still managed to kill/injure dozens of people.
I'm not sure how you prevent this in any other way except this person not having had access to a gun in the first place.
That's one good step towards eliminating this. You also need to eliminate the voice of those calling for this violence (Trump and friends), improve prospects for Americans, and provide free and convenient access to health care.
You're far less likely to carry out an act like this if you have a bright future and more of your basic needs guaranteed.
Edit:
It's like the "fire triangle". Someone with no hope is the fuel, hate speech the heat, and guns the oxygen.
If America were a tabula rasa, this idea makes sense. But the American tabula is far from rasa. In fact it has more guns than people. If you somehow had a political coalition capable of passing such an amendment, how many sheriffs would actually enforce it? Can you imagine how large ATF would have to get?
And most important, do you think all Americans would comply? No. Certainly there would be some abstentions. The result would be an America where the law abiding citizens have guns and the people most willing to break the law have a bunch.
Totally unironically I think we have a better hope of making America less of dystopian nightmare than we do of relieving Americans of their guns. Maybe we should offer the youth better prospects than decades of futile toiling for a multinational conglomerate bent on exploiting them. Perhaps then dying in a blaze of glory to avoid this would lose its appeal.
at this point numbers are refined to 9 dead, 26 injured
police were on scene in one minute, and this person still racked up that many people:
this should surprise literally nobody: the shooter is 24, white, male. honestly, what are the odds that he has some white supremacist/far-right literature laying around or on his computer?
the GOP is blaming video games, by the way, in case you were convinced they might actually do something about guns.
His whole Twitter page was full of pro-Trump, pro-white-nationalist shit.
This is an epidemic.
EDIT: I was thinking of the El Paso shooter. My bad. Too many fucking mass murders.
I've been seeing some varying accounts of what was on the Dayton guy's social media, do you have any sources for that? I'd like to verify if possible
I think @mike10010100 was probably talking about the El Paso shooter, not the Dayton one.
It's disgusting that we have to worry about confusion between the multiple mass shooters from the same day.
You're right. That was my mistake. I was thinking of the El Paso shooter.
Although the Dayton shooter was also young, white, and male, so I guess we'll just have to see how that shakes out. But I'll bet on it.
I've been seeing this article around Twitter, along with other reports that he was incredibly mysogynistic. There's also been some screenshots popping up of sites saying that the el Paso shooter was a Democrat, along with other people saying those sites were clearly edited after the fact (which it looks like they were). It's so hard to figure out what's going on when everyone is rushing to post a take and fit it into a greater narrative. It's honestly exhausting
I'm sure the truth will shake out eventually. Until then, disregard unreliable sources, and FFS ignore the alt-right. They tried to lie their way through the whole "caustic cement milkshakes" thing, and the media ate it hook, line and sinker.
I'm just worried that in the absence of a compelling narrative otherwise the Republicans will use this to 1) deflect and not do a single thing about gun control and 2) move to pass more legislation against anti-facism
That's completely false. Dayton shooter's Twitter account wasn't far right at all. It's archived on here. It goes to show that there's something more than racism causing this tragedies.
No, it goes to show there are more causes to gun terror than just racism. However racism and white supremacy does seem to be a motivating factor in many terror attacks as of late.
I agree with the last part (and with the first too, but kind of misses the point).
I may have jumped to quickly to a conclusion with the "it goes to show...". But this is what I mean:
After the Dayton shooting happened, everyone assumed it was related to white supremacy, quite logically because, as you say, the trend of young, white males becoming mass shooters has been inspired by white nationalism. This could be just an odd case. But it could be too that the causal reason behind this late "trend" is not white supremacism, and that it just acted as a kind of catalyst, justifying and enabling this behavior and even exalting it. And that reason could be the reason behind the growth of white supremacism lately among that demographic group.
I don't know that possible reason, although I think it might be related to alienation, isolation and a switch of values that underemphasizes personal responsibility. It could be a different reason, and I could be wrong as well.
But white supremacism can't be the cause of its own growth so, one way or the other, even if it this kind of shootings were a direct cause of white supremacism and this was an odd case, there would be something deeper behind. And, if this wasn't an odd case, it could give some insight into that cause, because the Dayton shooting surely wasn't a consequence of white nationalism.
It would be interesting too to take a look for the points in common between school shooters, specially young, white males, and white supremacist shooters.
The fact is that the Dayton shooting wasn't a terrorist act. This was a disturbed person who had a long history of having a "kill list" of people in school, calling other girls "sluts", etc. etc.
We cannot classify all mass killings the same way. This could have just been initiated by the other mass killings happening at the same time. He also killed his family, if you recall, which shows that he doesn't seem politically motivated.
I'm not arguing that he was politically motivated. Do we know that the El Paso shooter wasn't a disturbed person?
And as I've said somewhere else, I'm not trying to absolve anyone from anything. Both shooters are criminals, and should be treated and/or remembered as that. But to me, white nationalism doesn't seem a cause, it's just the final push. The reasons why one thinks he does something aren't always the deeper reasons. And I don't think that the presence of absence of political self-justifications means it's a completely different phenomenon.
I guess all I'm saying is that racism as the final cause of shootings with a racist self-justification is a simplistic view which doesn't help understand anything new. We already know that white supremacism is a criminal ideology. But why is this happening now? Could it have a connection to similar phenomena which aren't wrapped in white supremacist rethorics?
I agree with the point you are making, but in some sense it feels like two different problems. It's not very different than a few years ago when we saw many young people being radicalized online by ISIS. The things that push people to radicalize (or at least make them susceptible) are of course distinct from the effects of that radicalization. We should be seeking to alleviate the former and mitigate the latter.
The El Paso shooter likely felt isolated or alienated for whatever reason (and there is the 'cause') and found a community in the alt-right and places like 8-chan. The community he found happened to be a cesspool of hatred against immigrants, glorifying other murders, and encouraging further violence. Once he was sucked into this community he gets further radicalized and its a self-feeding cycle until this happens. We should be addressing the initial isolation (or anxiety or whatever it is), but I don't think the scrutiny off these hateful communities is misplaced; rather, we should pretty forcefully be condemning them and recognizing the role they had to play in this tragedy which is what I think the media is mostly doing.
The situation becomes more complex when you recognize the proximity of these alt-right/hateful communities to current political power that is perpetuating the conditions that lead to this sense of isolation. I just don't think you can really clearly separate the two in this situation.
Yes, I agree. I'm just saying that we shouldn't stop there. This kind of "resurgence of the far right" is happening not only in the US, but throughout the Western world. I think the media is wrong when they explain it with withe supremacism being a murderous ideology. We already know that, that's no explanation and the lack of a convincing explanation of why it's spreading and what does that mean makes them stronger. Condemnation is necessary, but mere condemnation without going deeper can be even dangerous.
I agree there are different subjects here that are very intertwined and hard to tell apart, though.
Yes, because, for one, Russia is working overtime to ensure that this ideology spreads online. It is spreading because the internet makes it faster and easier for people to spread fake news than ever before.
Are you not seeing the shit that Fox News and Trump spews on a daily basis?
Could it have anything to do with the rhetoric that the right is imposing on the US?
Yes, as a catalyst. But having to do is not the same as causing. It's not as easy as the right imposing this or that. And in many Western countries other than the US, the far right is growing as well.
One thing is to recognize the damage that US Republicans are currently doing in that direction, and a different one is blaming them for the phenomenon altogether. That kind of simple, easy explanations that blame everything on the will of one bad actor are detrimental to stop the growth of the far right, as don't really explain anything. It can be summarized into "the right grows because of the right", that's void of meaning.
Why is it growing around the globe? Because Russia is actively causing it to happen via social media and traditional propaganda channels.
They wish to see the demise of all liberal democracy across the globe. They have literally stated as much.
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/06/at-g20-putin-leads-attack-on-western-liberalism/
They are tapping into the pain felt by everyone participating in a late-stage-capitalist society that is too afraid to move onto the next step and throw off the shackles of unfettered capitalism.
Spot-on. And that's what we can change, the root issue, even if Russia may be watering the plant. Blaming Russia will do little to overcome this decomposing capitalism. In which, by the way, the Russian citizens are immersed too. The issue is a global one, regardless on how each State tries to take advantage on it, and only a global solution will be worth it. If Russia were to disappear tomorrow, nobody would have less problems, just a different expression of the same ones. That is, no one except the Russians.
I mean, it'll ensure that we can peacefully transition to socialism instead of fascism. That's the entire point of focusing on the Russian influence.
I mean sure? I don't really see what your point is here...
Didn't you just get finished talking about how this is a situation unique to the US? And now it's a global one?
Actually, yes, they would. A ton less problems. Trump wouldn't get his online troll army, and these people would stop using online social media mechanisms to sew discord, hate, and bigotry.
It's not a situation unique to the US, but we're talking about the specific manifestation of global problems in the US.
I don't get this, and I don't think I will. We must have quite different ideas of what socialism means. This will ensure at most a war with Russia. I don't get how the US is pointing towards socialism, the Democrats would hardly pass even as moderate right in my country. The Democrats left wing is equivalent to the center right in many other places, regardless of what the American right likes to believe.
Edit: if Russia is having a negative influence in the West, which I think is true, it's also true that the US is having a terrible influence in Europe, to the point that political discussion is dominated by topics in American politics that sometimes are little to no relevant here, and the American perspective, specially from the American left, which is pretty right wing for almost anyone else's standards, is supplanting other more interesting and relevant perspectives. But I don't think blaming the US is productive, the US is doing what every State does given the opportunity. If the US, Russia and China were to disappear, no one would be better off. It's dangerous, although easy and sometimes politically convenient, to mistake problems for their concrete and apparent expression.
I really don't like the Russian state and what it's doing with its influence, but if I were anti Russian on that basis, I would have to be anti American as well. In fact, most of the left in my country is fiercely anti American.
Isn't this the exact same thing that right-wingers say when a far-right individual commits a mass shooting, which the left are always very eager to label as terrorism (people were pretty much doing it in this very thread before it turned out he was a self-identified leftist)?
I'm not saying you're wrong - there definitely is a difference between terrorists and the mentally ill - but I think it's too early to say this is definitely a case of the latter.
i would say that it is actually overwhelmingly likely a case of the latter given that the police--almost three days after it happened--still have no reason to suspect he actually did it for political reasons and he seemingly left no manifesto or indication of doing it for political reasons and had a history of being a violent individual with clearly abnormal thoughts that led to his expulsion from school, personally. sometimes a person who has problems is just a person who has problems and not doing it for some ulterior political motive: stephen paddock for example was most likely a right-wing extremist, but his extremism as far as we're aware is probably not the main reason why he killed 59 people in las vegas.
If a mentally ill individual is driven by politics or ideology to commit a mass shooting, are they a terrorist? They evidently committed the heinous crime in the service of a cause, but without a manifesto or a stated motive they fail to actually raise any awareness to their point of view. Ultimately, I think it's a question of semantics. I would agree that Paddock was almost certainly motivated by his political views, and I daresay there's a good chance that the Dayton shooter was too. Are either terrorists, though? It comes down to how you want to define the word.
Yes. This, however, was not driven by ideology. He murdered his family and random people, and had a long history of calling people denigrating names in school like "slut", implying that he feels rejected by women, as well as a "kill list" of people in school.
Nothing about his ideology seems to have directly caused him to target these people particularly.
Sure, but it's widely agreed that if it's politically motivated, it's terrorism, if it isn't, it's not.
Is the shooting politically motivated? Then it's terrorism.
Is the shooting motivated because of someone's rejection by women? Then it isn't.
You're right, copycat shootings are also a thing, as well as personally-motivated acts of violence.
But the overwhelming number of mass shootings have been driven primarily by a right-wing political ideology.
https://time.com/3934980/right-wing-extremists-white-terrorism-islamist-jihadi-dangerous/
That's simply not true.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019
Edit: it's true only for politically motivated shootings, which are a minority.
Okay, yes, so of the shootings that are politically motivated, 2/3 comes from right-wing ideologies.
We can both discuss why people feel the need or the desire to use violence/guns to quell their pain, while also discussing why the right-wing ideologies tend to foster so much more political violence. It's really two separate discussions.
I agree it's two separate discussions. Although it must be pointed out that it's about why the American political right currently fosters more violence. This is very linked to the context.
BTW I'm quite on the left, although I'm not really sympathetic to any current tendencies. But I have no interest whatsoever to defend the political right.
I mean not really? There has been a sudden rise of ultra-right-wing ideology around the world, and all of it has led to violence already.
I agree, but that's specific to the current situation in the West at most. Look at Venezuela, as a counter example (and of course there's plenty of right wing violence there too, I'm not arguing otherwise).
shooter's sister and her boyfriend were just found dead. (alt confirmation). fun stuff, really cool that we're just going to do nothing about this because people would rather worship a gun death cult and a recent interpretation of what the right to bear arms means than not have their children and friends fertilize the earth with blood twice a week.
edit: also to be clear, i believe these two are accounted for in the 9 dead?
The gun death cult is downstream of the ethno-nationalist death cult. The only reason they care so much about guns is because it lets them indulge in this fantasy of fighting off the foreign, darkie hordes.
The odds were high, but looking at his Twitter account it doesn't seem to be the case.
And please, don't misconstrue this as support for white nationalism or trying to blame it on the left. But I think it goes to show that there's something deeper than just racism going on.
already covered it down the way. he's been known as a leftist for about a day and a half at this point.
Yep, I read it later. Sorry.
America: Why have one mass shooting when you could have two in less than 12 hours?
It’s really bad situation. I was considering tagging this post as
recurring.weekly. And if you count even small mass shootings, you get more than one per day.Aussie here. Your shit's fucked. If 2 people get shot that counts as a mass shooting in my book. If nobody gets hit but someone is shooting in an area with people that's a mass shooting.
Both of the ones today are mass casualty events, with at least 20 dead in El Paso and 10 dead so far reported in Dayton.
It's pretty fucked.
I read yesterday that Jacksonville, FL, has an average of one shooting per day.
I just realized this isn't an article about the Wall Mart shooting, this is a brand new one! Holy crap.
as of now: the dayton shooter appears to be a leftist, however, his ideology does not appear to have been a reason for the shooting. the police have not given a motive as far as i'm aware, but classmates are saying he was kind of batshit and his previous history included a rape list, a kill list, and an attempt of some sort to shoot up his school previously, so it's not like this was something from the blue.
Ugh.. A lot of folks I've seen on the left have been really emphasizing the white supremacy aspect of the el paso shooter over mental illness or guns. it's an attractive argument especially when considering the violence inherent in ethnonationalism, but this complicates that and will make it difficult for folks who jumped to that as their first argument (tbh myself included) to adjust their already posted hot takes.
I think you're right in that ideology wasn't involved anywhere near as much in the Dayton shooter. It's hard to say without a manifesto but from what I've seen from their tweets & history they don't have any sort of consistent ideology, much less a consistent leftist one.
my guess, just based on what people are saying about him, is that he was actually a genuine leftist with not-pegged-down beliefs (he did hang out in lots of leftist spaces and leftist twitter power users interacted with him a lot)--but he was also pretty clearly a danger to people before he became one, based on the fact that he was threatening people for years before this, and people just didn't do anything about it either because they couldn't force action to be taken or because they didn't think he would actually commit violence.
I was just recently reading the Current Affairs article responding to the sortition bomber. I remember sort of rolling my eyes at it.
It's pretty jarring to browse through this person's twitter and run across retweets that I might have liked (if I used twitter) rather than the usual xenophobic and proto-fascist stuff that these mass shooters usually contemplate. He even retweeted Current Affairs. Who is this fucking person?
What was eye rolling about that CA article?
I was about 4 articles deep in that issue, got the impression that they were in a bit of a rush to put that one out just based on the topics. I guess I should say that I just didn't take it topic seriously at the time.
Even now it's a bit of a stretch, we still don't have a motive, the shooter has been revealed to have been something of a scumbag. It's just weird to me that someone with that character would be attracted to the same political ideas as I am. I suppose there are an infinite number of routes to the same conclusion, some of which are somehow based in lunacy and misogyny.
It's seems clear that the Dayton attack wasn't ideologically motivated. But maybe, the motivation was similar to what is making racism so attractive for some people in the US, specially young white males.
I'm all for stopping racism, but to really do that we have to know the deeper causes behind this trend. Not as a way to absolve or pity individuals, which are fully responsible for their actions. But to stop it from growing more and getting worse.
I'm almost certain the root root cause of these is a very general & overwhelming sense of despair about the future. I mean shit, the world isn't great right now. Climate change is a HUGE pressure on everyone who acknowledges it's happening - and I think we're going to see more folks on the right turn to eco-facism like the El Paso shooter as the effects of climate change become more real. That despair is there regardless of ideology; it just gets weaponized more by those on the right. Unfortunately, I think the only way you can even begin to address this problem is by fundamentally restructuring society in some way.
Fully, totally and completely agree with that. I would agree that it's unfortunate in that it's very difficult. But at the same time, if we do it and do it right, it can be a great opportunity for building a society in which people can find self-realization.
yep! We've just got to make sure that as people start to realize that current mainstream ideologies have completely and utterly failed to address climate change, that the new ideologies we adopt are fair and just.
Also we have to question ourselves. Not the fundamental goal of a more humane society, shared by people of many different ideological tendencies, but the whole rest. Only constant questioning can keep one on track and enable one to detect errors and mistakes before they become part of our identity and we become unable to see them for what they are anymore.
I think there's a pretty strong tendency to consider oneself as the Bearer of Truth™, and all of us, myself the first one, have to fight that tendency in ourselves.
here's some actual evidence to back this up. again i reiterate though: there isn't any evidence to suggest this is political in the sense that he did it because of his leftism, and there's remains no stated motive by police; he just happens to be a leftist who shot a place up as of now.
press conference now says police still have no motive. just based on how things worked out for the el paso shooter, i'm going to guess that this isn't a politically-motivated shooting if they haven't turned up anything which would suggest that there seems to be a political motive after over 24 hours. it's not impossible, of course, but political motivations for shootings usually don't take very long to suss out, especially with someone as online as this person was.
There really isn’t anything ideologically opposed between ethno-nationalism and economic leftism. Plenty of “class not race” types are mighty comfortable hanging out in racist spaces.
VICE has a piece on the band the shooter was in now: EXCLUSIVE: DAYTON SHOOTER WAS IN A “PORNOGRIND” BAND THAT RELEASED SONGS ABOUT RAPING AND KILLING WOMEN
fun times!
Oh wow, what an article. This is probably the best real-life parallel of internet radicalization I've ever seen.
These are the exact same things people say about /pol/ and Voat and 8chan and so on. "No, the genocide memes are just our way of being funny, being offensive is our sense of humor! I didn't know anyone could possibly be taking it seriously!"
Also, wow, I do not suggest clicking on the link to the archived copy of their bandcamp page. They really should have put a warning on that.