12 votes

Respect for flags and other national symbols

So, I am currently attending a big scouting event in Europe and there are people from over 50 different countries. And I have noticed, that quite a lot of them are acting (at least for me) in a very disrespectful manner towards the flag. Starting with the smaller thinngs, most people have flag tied on a rope between their tents (the flag is tied in top left and top right corners). In my opinion, it should only be tied on the left side, while the right is hanging freely. But I can kind of understand that, because the flag is much more visible, it's easier and nicer to do it this way. However, it gets worse. Earlier today, when it started drizzling, I saw some people using their flag as head protection. And, in my opinion the biggest sign of disrespect, when we had the opening ceremony, there were people laying their flag on the ground and sitting on it, not caring who steps on it or anything.

What are your thoughts on this topic? Is this just me overreacting? Or do you think this is a serious problem?

40 comments

  1. [11]
    mat
    Link
    I'd say you're overreacting. For me the Union Jack/Flag (now there is a whole different discussion) is mostly just a bit of cloth. It's impossible to disrespect a bit of cloth. If it happens to...

    I'd say you're overreacting. For me the Union Jack/Flag (now there is a whole different discussion) is mostly just a bit of cloth. It's impossible to disrespect a bit of cloth. If it happens to make a handy rainhat or shade-casting device or blanket to sit on or keep warm under - great! Then it's a useful bit of cloth.

    I think how people act towards each other is a lot more important than how they treat symbolic objects.

    Are you American? In my experience Americans tend to be a more "flag aware" than other countries. Not making any judgement on that, people can choose whatever symbols they want to make important, just an observation.

    54 votes
    1. [10]
      Pilgrim
      Link Parent
      Which is hilarious considering you can buy American flag underwear and dildos and whatever the hell else you want.

      Are you American? In my experience Americans tend to be a more "flag aware" than other countries.

      Which is hilarious considering you can buy American flag underwear and dildos and whatever the hell else you want.

      15 votes
      1. [9]
        papasquat
        Link Parent
        To be fair, 90% of those are made by Chinese companies with no input from Americans.

        To be fair, 90% of those are made by Chinese companies with no input from Americans.

        1. [8]
          Pilgrim
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Are there studies that we can look at where researchers took a random sampling of American flag dildos and found that 90% of them originated in China?

          Are there studies that we can look at where researchers took a random sampling of American flag dildos and found that 90% of them originated in China?

          1. [3]
            IfaqYurmama
            Link Parent
            90% of everything in America originated in China, it's fair to assume this applies to Dildos as well

            90% of everything in America originated in China, it's fair to assume this applies to Dildos as well

            2 votes
            1. [2]
              Pilgrim
              Link Parent
              That's demonstrably false, unless of course you're talking about American flags themselves. Source: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/american-flags-china_n_3540287.html I mean I get that...

              That's demonstrably false, unless of course you're talking about American flags themselves.

              Source: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/american-flags-china_n_3540287.html

              I mean I get that you're being hyperbolic, but 90% is so far off it feels important to point out that number has no basis in reality. The most we import is about 35% for clothing. Or perhaps you meant "not made in the USA?" because then the number would be more like 75%.

              See table one in this article for more information: https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2011/august/us-made-in-china/

              4 votes
              1. IfaqYurmama
                Link Parent
                I was indeed joking but thanks for the resources, very informative!

                I was indeed joking but thanks for the resources, very informative!

                1 vote
          2. [4]
            papasquat
            Link Parent
            It was a joke, but I very much doubt that the price point at which US made American flag dildos would need to sit to be profitable would be a point that people would be willing to pay for what...

            It was a joke, but I very much doubt that the price point at which US made American flag dildos would need to sit to be profitable would be a point that people would be willing to pay for what essentially is a one-time gag.

            (I actually don't even know if American flag dildos even exist)

            1 vote
            1. [3]
              Pilgrim
              Link Parent
              Fair enough :) I actually don't know if American flag dildos exist either, and I'm too scared to confirm at work lol

              Fair enough :)

              I actually don't know if American flag dildos exist either, and I'm too scared to confirm at work lol

  2. enso
    Link
    To my knowledge a lot of the things that that are seen as disrespectful to the US flag are not seen as such in other countries. I know a lot of my international friends don't really get why people...

    To my knowledge a lot of the things that that are seen as disrespectful to the US flag are not seen as such in other countries. I know a lot of my international friends don't really get why people get upset about the US flag touching the ground.

    39 votes
  3. Algernon_Asimov
    Link
    How does one disrespect a piece of cloth, exactly? "You're a bad piece of cloth! You're holey and frayed! Bad cloth!" A flag may be a symbol, but it is, ultimately, just a piece of cloth with a...

    How does one disrespect a piece of cloth, exactly? "You're a bad piece of cloth! You're holey and frayed! Bad cloth!"

    A flag may be a symbol, but it is, ultimately, just a piece of cloth with a design on it. What, exactly, should we be showing respect to: the piece of cloth, or the design on the cloth, or the country/organisation the design represents?

    I'd say intention counts a lot. If I'm burning a country's flag as part of a political protest, then I am clearly expressing my disrespect for that country. If I'm wrapping a country's flag around me to keep me dry, then I'm probably not trying to express any disrespect for the country whose flag is keeping me dry.

    Here in Australia, we can buy Aussie flag T-shirts, Aussie flag shorts, Aussie flag beach towels, Aussie flag umbrellas, and Aussie flag thongs ("flip-flops" for you Yanks). We can literally walk on our country's flag! Yes, it's important to treat a flag with respect in the context of a ceremonial occasion, such as a diplomatic visit or a funeral but, outside of that context, it's just a design on a piece of cloth (or on rubber, in the case of thongs).

    25 votes
  4. [5]
    pseudolobster
    Link
    I get that disrespecting a symbol can be viewed as disrespecting what that symbol represents, but I think intent is key. Hanging a flag sideways doesn't necessarily mean you hate that country....

    I get that disrespecting a symbol can be viewed as disrespecting what that symbol represents, but I think intent is key. Hanging a flag sideways doesn't necessarily mean you hate that country. Burning a flag intentionally probably does. Neither should have any repercussion, unless, say, there's a burning ban in effect. Neither has any actual harm to anyone, but one is sending a specific message and the other isn't.

    I think people hanging a flag the wrong way are probably trying to support that country. They probably don't see why this equates to disrespect in your eyes. You're free to tell them, but be aware they might not necessarily agree with you.

    The US Flag Code prohibits making an article of clothing from a US flag, saying it's disrespectful, yet the people who wear flag colored clothing seem to be doing so out of loud, obnoxious respect for their country.

    21 votes
    1. [4]
      mat
      Link Parent
      Am I right in thinking the US flag code says don't make clothing out of the actual flag, rather than not making clothing with the flag design on? So pulling a flag down from a pole and tailoring...

      Am I right in thinking the US flag code says don't make clothing out of the actual flag, rather than not making clothing with the flag design on? So pulling a flag down from a pole and tailoring it into a pair of boxers is a no-no, but printing a t-shirt - which has never been a flag - with stars and stripes is OK.

      4 votes
      1. [3]
        pseudolobster
        Link Parent
        Good question. I dunno. Here's the relevant section: I'd tend to interpret that as "No part of the flag's design". Not sure what makes something an official flag or not, but it seems like...

        Good question. I dunno. Here's the relevant section:

        No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

        I'd tend to interpret that as "No part of the flag's design". Not sure what makes something an official flag or not, but it seems like manufacturing something with design elements of the flag, not in the shape of a flag, would fall under this.

        10 votes
        1. [2]
          mat
          Link Parent
          I see where you're coming from with that interpretation, but I think given how seriously quite a lot of America takes flags and how a code violation would likely be taken fairly seriously, the...

          I see where you're coming from with that interpretation, but I think given how seriously quite a lot of America takes flags and how a code violation would likely be taken fairly seriously, the evidence strongly suggests that's not how the code should be read.

          2 votes
          1. pseudolobster
            Link Parent
            Nah, that's not the case. The flag code's penalties and repercussions have never been used. There was a supreme court case in the 90's that upheld burning a flag is protected under the 1st...

            I think given how seriously quite a lot of America takes flags and how a code violation would likely be taken fairly seriously

            Nah, that's not the case. The flag code's penalties and repercussions have never been used. There was a supreme court case in the 90's that upheld burning a flag is protected under the 1st amendment. It's really just a guideline, not an actual law as such.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

            9 votes
  5. Emerald_Knight
    Link
    I would argue that you're experiencing is a nationalistic viewpoint of the behaviors of those who don't hold nationalistic viewpoints. Don't misunderstand, I'm not talking about "white...

    I would argue that you're experiencing is a nationalistic viewpoint of the behaviors of those who don't hold nationalistic viewpoints. Don't misunderstand, I'm not talking about "white nationalism" or the ultranationalism associated with Nazis and white supremacists in general, but your less harmful, garden-variety nationalism, which can be thought of as a more extreme form of patriotism. Mind you, I'm not passing judgment here, and you don't need to feel bad about wanting to respect your own flag, but I would definitely encourage you to question the root cause of your discomfort when other people don't walk on eggshells with regards to the flags of their own countries.

    Some questions to consider:

    • What is it about the way people treat their countries' flags causes you discomfort? Is it specific actions, lack of actions, behaviors, mindsets, or something else entirely?

    • Why is it that this treatment causes you discomfort?

    • Where does this discomfort originate from in terms of culture and/or upbringing?

    • Why is it that those people don't feel the same discomfort?

    • Do you believe they feel that they're being disrespectful, or do you believe that they think they're honoring their countries?

    • What kind of fundamental cultural differences might exist to explain the differences between their treatment of their countries' flags and yours?

    You don't necessarily need to find the answers to these questions or reply to them here. Instead, I just want you to consider mulling over these questions over time to examine your own mindset. You don't have to change the way you feel about this and my intention isn't to change your mind about anything at all, but I do believe that it's important that you understand why it is that you feel the way you do. Odds are that it will help you contextualize your beliefs in general, and my hope is that you can walk away from this more informed than when you started.

    17 votes
  6. [4]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [3]
      PsychoPitcher
      Link Parent
      What?

      What?

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        @go1dfish is our resident voluntaryist. He doesn't believe in government, as a violent institution that restricts people's freedom, so he would have no respect for the symbols of these violent...

        @go1dfish is our resident voluntaryist. He doesn't believe in government, as a violent institution that restricts people's freedom, so he would have no respect for the symbols of these violent institutions.

        13 votes
        1. PsychoPitcher
          Link Parent
          Ok I understand now this context was needed

          Ok I understand now this context was needed

          1 vote
  7. s4b3r6
    Link
    It depends on your background - America, for example, has a big list of dos and don'ts around the flag. However, in my country we print beach towels with our flag, and it isn't considered...

    It depends on your background - America, for example, has a big list of dos and don'ts around the flag.

    However, in my country we print beach towels with our flag, and it isn't considered disrespectful. So people sit on the sand on their flag, they wrap their junk with it, and they use it to protect them from the rain.

    The flag is just a symbol of our nation. When we are using it for that purpose.

    Otherwise, whatever it is printed on, be it cloth, towel, clothing, it just means we identify as being a person of our nation.

    If someone were to hang our flag upside down, the public opinion wouldn't be:

    They're dissing our nation!

    It would be:

    Huh. Someone hung it upside down by accident. Idiot.

    11 votes
  8. [7]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [3]
      Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      Actually, this reminds me. Here in Australia, waving the Aussie flag too enthusiastically and displaying it too blatantly is often the sign of a racist. When we had racist riots on a local beach...

      In daily life if I see an individual hanging a flag from his balcony when it is not a big sport event, I'd roll my eyes at such a blatant and obnoxious display of nationalistic behavior.

      Actually, this reminds me. Here in Australia, waving the Aussie flag too enthusiastically and displaying it too blatantly is often the sign of a racist. When we had racist riots on a local beach about a decade ago, because some local white surfers didn't like Muslims using "their" beach, many of the racists were draped in the Aussie flag. Over the past decade or so, because racists have used the flag so often, it has developed a racist overtone - which is disappointing.

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        Pilgrim
        Link Parent
        This is often true in America as well. If you are not 100% sure look for a black and white American flag with a single blue line ("blue lives matter") or a Confederate flag or a "Don't Tread on...

        too enthusiastically and displaying it too blatantly is often the sign of a racist

        This is often true in America as well. If you are not 100% sure look for a black and white American flag with a single blue line ("blue lives matter") or a Confederate flag or a "Don't Tread on Me" flag.

        1 vote
        1. Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          We have our own equivalent of those other flags: the Eureka flag. Somehow, this flag of a miners' rebellion has managed to become both a left-wing symbol of workers' rights and a right-wing symbol...

          We have our own equivalent of those other flags: the Eureka flag. Somehow, this flag of a miners' rebellion has managed to become both a left-wing symbol of workers' rights and a right-wing symbol of nationalism and racism.

          2 votes
    2. [3]
      Eylrid
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      In the U.S. reverence for the flag in enshrined in both our national anthem and our Pledge of Allegiance. Our national anthem "The Star Spangled Banner" is all about how the flag survived a...

      In the U.S. reverence for the flag in enshrined in both our national anthem and our Pledge of Allegiance. Our national anthem "The Star Spangled Banner" is all about how the flag survived a British attack on Fort McHenry during the war of 1812. The flag's survival is symbolic of our young nation's survival. Our Pledge of Allegiance, which is recited in schools, at government meetings, etc., is to the flag first, then to the republic.

      I'm not nationalistic. I think it's good to be patriotic and supportive of one's country, but I'm appalled by America First at the expense of everyone else. On an intellectual level I know that a symbol is just a symbol. I don't think there is anything wrong with taking a knee during the national anthem. I find the concept of a pledge of allegiance distasteful. When I started writing this comment my intent was to explain why Americans revere our flag, not necessarily to justify or support it. And yet after all that when I started writing about our anthem and what our flag meant in the birth and survival of our country, I got really emotional. Love of the flag was that deeply ingrained in me from childhood.

      edit: fixed link

      3 votes
      1. [2]
        Soptik
        Link Parent
        Wow. From my perspective, this just seems so... brainwashing, for lack of better term. So students have to recite it every day in school?

        All states except Hawaii, Iowa, Vermont and Wyoming require a regularly-scheduled recitation of the pledge in the public schools

        Wow. From my perspective, this just seems so... brainwashing, for lack of better term. So students have to recite it every day in school?

        7 votes
        1. OptimalBasis
          Link Parent
          When I was in elementary school, we said the Pledge at the beginning of every day. I moved to a different school district and they didn't say it at all. I was in high school after September 11th,...

          When I was in elementary school, we said the Pledge at the beginning of every day. I moved to a different school district and they didn't say it at all. I was in high school after September 11th, 2001, and we started having time to say it every day, but it was optional. Most people said it, but those who did not just sat quietly, and I don't think they were ridiculed.

          But yes, it is a form of brainwashing.

          I agree with most of what the Black Lives Matter movement does, but I think they may have made a tactical error in going after the flag since most people don't think logically about the flag. However, civil rights movements could use this to their advantage. Instead of "disrespecting" the flag, wave it vigorously while demanding your rights. Then again, the police are treated as infallible in this country, so it's always going to be a difficult endeavor.

          1 vote
  9. Dox
    Link
    US is the odd man out on this one. Rest of the world kinda gave up caring about the flags themselves. Just bits of colourful cloth. What's important is the nation the flag represents.

    US is the odd man out on this one. Rest of the world kinda gave up caring about the flags themselves. Just bits of colourful cloth. What's important is the nation the flag represents.

    6 votes
  10. unknown user
    Link
    You're overreacting. The US is waaaaaay lax with the flag if we compare her to Turkey. Here, damaging or dirtying the flag in any way could easily bring on to you from cringy verbal attacks to...

    You're overreacting. The US is waaaaaay lax with the flag if we compare her to Turkey. Here, damaging or dirtying the flag in any way could easily bring on to you from cringy verbal attacks to actual violence. It is not a religious symbol, but has some sort of weird secularly-holy status. I myself don't care one bit because flags and nations and the like are not that big of a deal. The US is today, it won't be some day; just like any other nation, and the concept of nation itself. I don't feel a tie to any nation, and perceive it as just another sort of natural phaenomenon that one has to contend with. At the end, its function is to group and manage random sets of people, one such tool in a toolset which includes things like race, religion, language, culture, tradition. Why would I respect such a thing?

    4 votes
  11. Hypersapien
    Link
    Americans who think that burning the flag in protest should be a criminal offense typically have no problem violating the flag code in other ways, like wearing it as clothing.

    Americans who think that burning the flag in protest should be a criminal offense typically have no problem violating the flag code in other ways, like wearing it as clothing.

    3 votes
  12. [3]
    good
    Link
    Is this an actual question? I feel like it's bait. Or just here to spur on conversation for no reason.

    Is this an actual question? I feel like it's bait. Or just here to spur on conversation for no reason.

    2 votes
    1. Flashynuff
      Link Parent
      Why wouldn't it be an actual question? If they're American and in Scouts it makes sense that they might be surprised by a more casual treatment of national flags. The Scouts in the US teach a very...

      Why wouldn't it be an actual question? If they're American and in Scouts it makes sense that they might be surprised by a more casual treatment of national flags. The Scouts in the US teach a very high level of respect for the flag, far beyond most people — even other Americans — might have.

      4 votes
    2. IncreaseTheDosage
      Link Parent
      I hope it's bait. This amount of nitpicking about an absolutely meaningless thing is... weird...

      I hope it's bait. This amount of nitpicking about an absolutely meaningless thing is... weird...

  13. [5]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [4]
      Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      ...

      Maybe you are at a military event?

      ...

      I am currently attending a big scouting event in Europe

      2 votes
      1. [4]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [2]
          Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          It's the Boy Scouts. https://www.scouting.org/

          It's the Boy Scouts. https://www.scouting.org/

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. [2]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. EightRoundsRapid
                Link Parent
                I think it's fair to say that the scouting movement was really born in southern Africa, In particular, as a result of the Siege of Mafeking during the Boer War.

                I think it's fair to say that the scouting movement was really born in southern Africa, In particular, as a result of the Siege of Mafeking during the Boer War.

                2 votes
  14. Fuck
    Link
    I'm American. If people are stepping all over a flag for no reason I'd be sad for the same reason I'd be sad if someone stepped all over a pretty shirt instead of wearing it. (I get a little too...

    I'm American. If people are stepping all over a flag for no reason I'd be sad for the same reason I'd be sad if someone stepped all over a pretty shirt instead of wearing it. (I get a little too emotional about objects.) But if they're intentionally burning it for a protest, go for it dude. If a country or government doesn't allow its people to disrespect it, then it's not worth respecting. Kind of like if a parent disowned their child for saying "I hate you" or if a certain god (not naming names cough God cough) said that you had to believe in him in order to not burn in hell.