So as someone who also struggles to sleep, I can get wanting to drop $2k on a solution. It blows my mind though that someone who is so security conscious could be ok with the rest of these things?...
Eight Sleep offered the features of temperature control: set the bed to any temperature hot or cold. For someone who suffers from insomnia this seemed worth a shot.
I was willing to overlook:
The bed costs $2,000
It won’t function if the internet goes down
Basic features are behind an additional $19/mo subscription
The bed’s only controls are via mobile app
So as someone who also struggles to sleep, I can get wanting to drop $2k on a solution.
It blows my mind though that someone who is so security conscious could be ok with the rest of these things? Points 2, 3, and 4 are also automatic deal breakers for me ESPECIALLY if i'm paying a premium price for the product.
I dropped Joule as a sous vide because I got sick and tired of fighting with the app to get it do to anything.
Further I've noticed that 9/10 times if some product does require a mobile app:
It almost certainly is horrifically unresponsive even when on the same network. My joule would take upwards of a minute to shut off or start even standing right next to it, to the point I got in the habit of just holding the damn button (which it would then complain about next time I turned it on...).
It almost certainly is badly written data harvesting backdoor nightmare city.
Like I get when my non tech friends tell me stuff like "who cares if bezo's has all my information", but I'm shocked someone so deep in the security side of the world would ever even entertain such a product. I'm also happy they found a solution that works for them, as again I know what a miracle being able to sleep normally can be.
The subscription for basic features (and to a lesser extent, needing a mobile app for the controls) is the big dealbreaker for me. Then the article casually revealed that those features had been...
The subscription for basic features (and to a lesser extent, needing a mobile app for the controls) is the big dealbreaker for me. Then the article casually revealed that those features had been previously free before getting locked behind a subscription back in 2023. That's not just a red flag to me, that's a blaring alarm that this company is shady and cannot be trusted. They blatantly and openly changed a product that people already paid for to be worse so they'd be pressured to pay extra for more. When a company goes that far, there's no limit to how much they'd be willing to screw over customers.
Desperation? Honest answer is probably that they just gave up. How many security conscious people skimp on some things or just give up on something else. We bought my wife a new car recently thats...
It blows my mind though that someone who is so security conscious could be ok with the rest of these things?
Desperation?
Honest answer is probably that they just gave up. How many security conscious people skimp on some things or just give up on something else. We bought my wife a new car recently thats internet connected and has an app and all that crap; I hate it, I know better, but I gave up.
Maybe this is just a narrative the blogger has created and they always intended to hack it.
"It's easier to build a shitty app than design a good product." Just a little thought I had while reading your comment. I think it tracks pretty well. Generally, the products I've been exposed to...
"It's easier to build a shitty app than design a good product."
Just a little thought I had while reading your comment. I think it tracks pretty well.
Generally, the products I've been exposed to (home network routers most recently) that require an app to set up, are poorly designed (the product itself and the app).
I think there's something to the idea that app design has trended towards "minimalism" for so long, and that manifests as minimal quality in products that rely on apps.
Writing this all out, I'm realizing I've come to view companion apps as a red flag for a long time now.
No, I don't want an app. I want a product that was actually designed to actually work. That is self-contained, and fully capable of doing its thing without some fucked up digital shackle.
One of my dreams, one that may not have enough of a market and that I lack the funds or expertise to execute on, is to make a line of the dumbest smart devices possible. Like to just go down the...
One of my dreams, one that may not have enough of a market and that I lack the funds or expertise to execute on, is to make a line of the dumbest smart devices possible. Like to just go down the list of "smart devices" and not even focus on innovation, but to make products that "just work" and without Internet connections or companion apps. In this vision even if companion apps ever did happen they'd
Be completely optional. I do get that some people will want to start their vacuum from their couch and may as well let them if it'll increase sales. But they absolutely could not block any critical functions.
Support non-internet protocols.
Keep all state and settings on the device, not in the app or cloud.
Sadly, even if I did magically get over the hurdles of figuring out the how I'm not sure there are enough of us that care, and could absorb the fact that these would have to be a bit more expensive, to ever make such a venture profitable. Someone out there may already be doing this exact thing but just without enough money to make me aware.
I have a smaller version of this dream. A certification - like that meaningless “Energy Star” rating on computers in the 90s - but with some set security and functional standards. works without...
I have a smaller version of this dream. A certification - like that meaningless “Energy Star” rating on computers in the 90s - but with some set security and functional standards.
There's a quiet ecosystem of things for this hiding behind the shitshow of cheap internet-based smart devices. One way is to use a protocol that isn't wifi at all, so it's firewalled by default...
even if I did magically get over the hurdles of figuring out the how
There's a quiet ecosystem of things for this hiding behind the shitshow of cheap internet-based smart devices.
One way is to use a protocol that isn't wifi at all, so it's firewalled by default unless you take the explicit step of setting up something to forward it to the internet. Z-wave is the one I've standardized on in my house; Zigbee is the other major one. Sometimes it's hard to find these in the specific commercial product that you want, and if it does exist it's probably more expensive than the internet-based equivalent, but it's widely available for things like simple sensors and switches, so that's most of what I use it for.
The other is wifi devices that just don't try to hit the internet. This is totally technically possible, the market forces just aren't there to push companies to promise that, or punish companies who break that promise. Mostly this is nerds setting up things like ESPHome and Tasmota, which both target ESP32 and ESP8266, the most common families of wifi modules used in smart devices.
For devices targeting non-nerds (who will want to gradually migrate from security-shitshow wifi and won't already have a zwave network set up), wifi-but-offline is probably the way to go. I'm not aware of any companies doing this but I also haven't really looked in a while.
The "how" I was referring to was less about tech and more about the business side of actually getting physical items produced. That's not to say there wouldn't be technical hurdles, but for as...
The "how" I was referring to was less about tech and more about the business side of actually getting physical items produced. That's not to say there wouldn't be technical hurdles, but for as long as this endeavor isn't targeting being actually innovative it would probably be fine to mix-and-match off-the-shelf networking solutions that limit it to WiFi (with local-only support in the software layer), some protocol from the hobbyist home automation community, and maybe throw in Bluetooth as well.
I'm sure it's possible to find resources, but I don't even know how I'd start sourcing something like a blank robovac (or temperature controlled bed to be on topic) matching my requirements that I could write the software for. Or find the funding to actually do so.
Ah, I see. Sorry for infodumping a bunch of stuff you likely already knew, then :) Have you considered crowdfunding? CrowdSupply would love this sort of thing, and will give advice to people who...
Ah, I see. Sorry for infodumping a bunch of stuff you likely already knew, then :)
Have you considered crowdfunding? CrowdSupply would love this sort of thing, and will give advice to people who have the skills to build a prototype and just need help scaling that up. (I haven't done it because of personal situation not being optimal for it right now, but I've talked with them a bit about projects I'd like to do it for in the future.)
But yeah, for specifically vacuums, I kind of doubt mostly-built-but-without-software vacuums are a thing, except maybe if you can convince a factory in China that's already making similar vacuums to sell them to you. If you don't want to build one from scratch you might have better luck sourcing a big enough batch of some existing vacuum to get bulk pricing, and ripping the firmware and maybe electronics out. Or maybe just sell it as a modchip/replacement board sort of thing and make people source their own vacuums, if you're okay with limiting it to nerds.
I was using vacuums as an example just because it happens to be the one "smart" device I own. In practice any would work. The things you mentioned could be interesting to look into though. I...
I was using vacuums as an example just because it happens to be the one "smart" device I own. In practice any would work. The things you mentioned could be interesting to look into though.
I recall reading somewhere, I think in the Valetudo documentation, that some of the devices from different brands are identical internally because they just go to a manufacturer to get an already-made design and then they just make their own app and some other branding stuff. I'm not certain how true that is.
Edit: you've inspired me to look into this a bit more seriously than I had in the past. From what I've found it seems somewhat common to white label some of these kinds of devices, which seems like it could be the most sensible approach. With who the target audience is I think I'd also want to open source all the relevant software with the business value being that it comes with a privacy-centric and offline-supported turnkey solution, but also isn't hostile to modifying it however you want. Kind of like how people treat the Steam Deck.
I'd say I'm most concerned about figuring out if there is a big enough market. I'm hesitant to do crowd funding because I'd feel horrible if I failed to deliver, but it is probably a decent way to gauge interest.
Amen. Further, even if the apps are decent, I’ve far too often read about hardware becoming abandoned and neglected because the damn companion app wouldn’t be developed on further, and eventually...
Amen.
Further, even if the apps are decent, I’ve far too often read about hardware becoming abandoned and neglected because the damn companion app wouldn’t be developed on further, and eventually there’s an OS update or something like that which causes it to be uninstallable on the next newer device (or it gets pulled from stores by the company outright…).
Fair. People massively underestimate turnkey, although I guess my personal experience has led me to "if it's got these caveats its NOT turnkey. It just looks like it and will frustrate the shit...
Fair. People massively underestimate turnkey, although I guess my personal experience has led me to "if it's got these caveats its NOT turnkey. It just looks like it and will frustrate the shit out of you".
Wow, the most baffling part of this to me is that the price tag doesn't even include a mattress. I will say that the old adage of "don't cheap out on anything between you and the ground" applies...
Wow, the most baffling part of this to me is that the price tag doesn't even include a mattress.
I will say that the old adage of "don't cheap out on anything between you and the ground" applies dramatically to mattresses. But I think the money is better spent on the mattress itself instead of this product.
For reference, I forked over the cash to get two tempur-pedic mattresses that together form a split king, for myself and my partner. We placed them on separate adjustable platforms, so we both can stay a bit more elevated, which makes a difference for our acid reflux. We also have separate sheets.
The result is great- we don't interrupt each others' sleep if one of us gets up, and neither of us have woken up with back pain since sleeping on these mattresses.
We bought a split king size sleep number bed that was incredibly expensive but seemed like it was worth it for my partner's disability needs then two months later my partner was in the hospital...
We bought a split king size sleep number bed that was incredibly expensive but seemed like it was worth it for my partner's disability needs then two months later my partner was in the hospital for 3 months and paraplegic.
The bed actually still helps, now, even if it isn't as useful as a fully functional hospital bed, but we can actually lay down together still this way. Financially though it killed us (and the wheelchair van made it worse)
So as someone who also struggles to sleep, I can get wanting to drop $2k on a solution.
It blows my mind though that someone who is so security conscious could be ok with the rest of these things? Points 2, 3, and 4 are also automatic deal breakers for me ESPECIALLY if i'm paying a premium price for the product.
I dropped Joule as a sous vide because I got sick and tired of fighting with the app to get it do to anything.
Further I've noticed that 9/10 times if some product does require a mobile app:
Like I get when my non tech friends tell me stuff like "who cares if bezo's has all my information", but I'm shocked someone so deep in the security side of the world would ever even entertain such a product. I'm also happy they found a solution that works for them, as again I know what a miracle being able to sleep normally can be.
The subscription for basic features (and to a lesser extent, needing a mobile app for the controls) is the big dealbreaker for me. Then the article casually revealed that those features had been previously free before getting locked behind a subscription back in 2023. That's not just a red flag to me, that's a blaring alarm that this company is shady and cannot be trusted. They blatantly and openly changed a product that people already paid for to be worse so they'd be pressured to pay extra for more. When a company goes that far, there's no limit to how much they'd be willing to screw over customers.
Desperation?
Honest answer is probably that they just gave up. How many security conscious people skimp on some things or just give up on something else. We bought my wife a new car recently thats internet connected and has an app and all that crap; I hate it, I know better, but I gave up.
Maybe this is just a narrative the blogger has created and they always intended to hack it.
"It's easier to build a shitty app than design a good product."
Just a little thought I had while reading your comment. I think it tracks pretty well.
Generally, the products I've been exposed to (home network routers most recently) that require an app to set up, are poorly designed (the product itself and the app).
I think there's something to the idea that app design has trended towards "minimalism" for so long, and that manifests as minimal quality in products that rely on apps.
Writing this all out, I'm realizing I've come to view companion apps as a red flag for a long time now.
No, I don't want an app. I want a product that was actually designed to actually work. That is self-contained, and fully capable of doing its thing without some fucked up digital shackle.
One of my dreams, one that may not have enough of a market and that I lack the funds or expertise to execute on, is to make a line of the dumbest smart devices possible. Like to just go down the list of "smart devices" and not even focus on innovation, but to make products that "just work" and without Internet connections or companion apps. In this vision even if companion apps ever did happen they'd
Sadly, even if I did magically get over the hurdles of figuring out the how I'm not sure there are enough of us that care, and could absorb the fact that these would have to be a bit more expensive, to ever make such a venture profitable. Someone out there may already be doing this exact thing but just without enough money to make me aware.
I have a smaller version of this dream. A certification - like that meaningless “Energy Star” rating on computers in the 90s - but with some set security and functional standards.
works without internet.
doesn’t require an app
doesn’t phone home (maybe?)
Something like that.
There's a quiet ecosystem of things for this hiding behind the shitshow of cheap internet-based smart devices.
One way is to use a protocol that isn't wifi at all, so it's firewalled by default unless you take the explicit step of setting up something to forward it to the internet. Z-wave is the one I've standardized on in my house; Zigbee is the other major one. Sometimes it's hard to find these in the specific commercial product that you want, and if it does exist it's probably more expensive than the internet-based equivalent, but it's widely available for things like simple sensors and switches, so that's most of what I use it for.
The other is wifi devices that just don't try to hit the internet. This is totally technically possible, the market forces just aren't there to push companies to promise that, or punish companies who break that promise. Mostly this is nerds setting up things like ESPHome and Tasmota, which both target ESP32 and ESP8266, the most common families of wifi modules used in smart devices.
For devices targeting non-nerds (who will want to gradually migrate from security-shitshow wifi and won't already have a zwave network set up), wifi-but-offline is probably the way to go. I'm not aware of any companies doing this but I also haven't really looked in a while.
The "how" I was referring to was less about tech and more about the business side of actually getting physical items produced. That's not to say there wouldn't be technical hurdles, but for as long as this endeavor isn't targeting being actually innovative it would probably be fine to mix-and-match off-the-shelf networking solutions that limit it to WiFi (with local-only support in the software layer), some protocol from the hobbyist home automation community, and maybe throw in Bluetooth as well.
I'm sure it's possible to find resources, but I don't even know how I'd start sourcing something like a blank robovac (or temperature controlled bed to be on topic) matching my requirements that I could write the software for. Or find the funding to actually do so.
Ah, I see. Sorry for infodumping a bunch of stuff you likely already knew, then :)
Have you considered crowdfunding? CrowdSupply would love this sort of thing, and will give advice to people who have the skills to build a prototype and just need help scaling that up. (I haven't done it because of personal situation not being optimal for it right now, but I've talked with them a bit about projects I'd like to do it for in the future.)
But yeah, for specifically vacuums, I kind of doubt mostly-built-but-without-software vacuums are a thing, except maybe if you can convince a factory in China that's already making similar vacuums to sell them to you. If you don't want to build one from scratch you might have better luck sourcing a big enough batch of some existing vacuum to get bulk pricing, and ripping the firmware and maybe electronics out. Or maybe just sell it as a modchip/replacement board sort of thing and make people source their own vacuums, if you're okay with limiting it to nerds.
I was using vacuums as an example just because it happens to be the one "smart" device I own. In practice any would work. The things you mentioned could be interesting to look into though.
I recall reading somewhere, I think in the Valetudo documentation, that some of the devices from different brands are identical internally because they just go to a manufacturer to get an already-made design and then they just make their own app and some other branding stuff. I'm not certain how true that is.
Edit: you've inspired me to look into this a bit more seriously than I had in the past. From what I've found it seems somewhat common to white label some of these kinds of devices, which seems like it could be the most sensible approach. With who the target audience is I think I'd also want to open source all the relevant software with the business value being that it comes with a privacy-centric and offline-supported turnkey solution, but also isn't hostile to modifying it however you want. Kind of like how people treat the Steam Deck.
I'd say I'm most concerned about figuring out if there is a big enough market. I'm hesitant to do crowd funding because I'd feel horrible if I failed to deliver, but it is probably a decent way to gauge interest.
Amen.
Further, even if the apps are decent, I’ve far too often read about hardware becoming abandoned and neglected because the damn companion app wouldn’t be developed on further, and eventually there’s an OS update or something like that which causes it to be uninstallable on the next newer device (or it gets pulled from stores by the company outright…).
Nobody has even mentioned the growth in botnets from IoT devices.
That’s still an issue, isn’t it?
If it's the best turnkey solution, lots of people will go for it regardless of the caveats -- especially for something as important as sleep.
Fair. People massively underestimate turnkey, although I guess my personal experience has led me to "if it's got these caveats its NOT turnkey. It just looks like it and will frustrate the shit out of you".
Wow, the most baffling part of this to me is that the price tag doesn't even include a mattress.
I will say that the old adage of "don't cheap out on anything between you and the ground" applies dramatically to mattresses. But I think the money is better spent on the mattress itself instead of this product.
For reference, I forked over the cash to get two tempur-pedic mattresses that together form a split king, for myself and my partner. We placed them on separate adjustable platforms, so we both can stay a bit more elevated, which makes a difference for our acid reflux. We also have separate sheets.
The result is great- we don't interrupt each others' sleep if one of us gets up, and neither of us have woken up with back pain since sleeping on these mattresses.
We bought a split king size sleep number bed that was incredibly expensive but seemed like it was worth it for my partner's disability needs then two months later my partner was in the hospital for 3 months and paraplegic.
The bed actually still helps, now, even if it isn't as useful as a fully functional hospital bed, but we can actually lay down together still this way. Financially though it killed us (and the wheelchair van made it worse)