18 votes

Thoughts on user profile badges/trophies?

23 comments

  1. [6]
    clone1
    Link
    I really don't think that "gamifying" tildes is a good idea. Isn't that one of the reasons we don't have a karma counter on profiles? I think that people should use tildes because they want to,...

    I really don't think that "gamifying" tildes is a good idea. Isn't that one of the reasons we don't have a karma counter on profiles? I think that people should use tildes because they want to, not to make some number on their profile go up or to earn badges.

    31 votes
    1. [3]
      Amarok
      Link Parent
      Never underestimate the power of xbox achievements. It's a motivation system. The question is, what behaviors do we want to motivate? If we give rewards for trivia, it'll be a trivial system. We...

      Never underestimate the power of xbox achievements.

      It's a motivation system. The question is, what behaviors do we want to motivate? If we give rewards for trivia, it'll be a trivial system. We can probably do better than that.

      I definitely think anyone who contributes code should be getting a badge for it, for example.

      17 votes
      1. Kenny
        Link Parent
        Totally agree. Basic psychology. It's three questions, really. What do we want to motivate? How do we motivate that? Does it work?

        Totally agree. Basic psychology. It's three questions, really. What do we want to motivate? How do we motivate that? Does it work?

        6 votes
      2. s4b3r6
        Link Parent
        Code and documentation should definitely be incentivised somehow.

        Code and documentation should definitely be incentivised somehow.

        1 vote
    2. rodya
      Link Parent
      I really think any form of hierarchy beyond what is required for the site to function (trust) should be avoided.

      I really think any form of hierarchy beyond what is required for the site to function (trust) should be avoided.

      16 votes
    3. meghan
      Link Parent
      right, I thought maybe it could be more of a manual thing to recognize community contributions rather than automatic ones gained from having a popular post

      right, I thought maybe it could be more of a manual thing to recognize community contributions rather than automatic ones gained from having a popular post

      10 votes
  2. [10]
    Deimos
    Link
    Gamification is complicated and a little dangerous. There's a saying along the lines of "you become what you measure", which basically means that when you start measuring something, people will...

    Gamification is complicated and a little dangerous. There's a saying along the lines of "you become what you measure", which basically means that when you start measuring something, people will change their behavior in a way to affect that measure. This is even more true if you give a reward for it, no matter how inconsequential that reward might seem.

    For example, say that I add a badge/trophy for something like "Contributed code to Tildes". That seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to recognize, but I can guarantee (because I've actually seen it happen) that it will motivate at least some people to figure out the most minimal thing they can do to get that trophy. They'll go look for some comment in the code they can change a word in, or "added a blank line to make this easier to read", or something along those lines. They're not legitimately trying to contribute a code change, just win a trophy.

    I'm not necessarily set against adding this type of thing, but it's something that needs to be done really carefully, because the reality is that it does change people's behavior. Here's an article I saw the other day about some game developers releasing games that are basically just easy trophies because they know they'll make a decent amount of money on them. These are people paying money to them solely to get trophies—the games aren't ones they want to play, they just want the trophies. It's strange, but it absolutely motivates people.

    23 votes
    1. [4]
      whoblowsthere
      Link Parent
      Agreed, however surely there could be a middle ground. Perhaps non-merit-based badges? Such as an Alpha user badge, or badges based on your anniversary (I know that reeks of Reddit). I don't know,...

      Agreed, however surely there could be a middle ground. Perhaps non-merit-based badges?

      Such as an Alpha user badge, or badges based on your anniversary (I know that reeks of Reddit).

      I don't know, what else makes sense?

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        clone1
        Link Parent
        I really am against having badges at all. I don't think joining tildes early should give you any respect or prestige. I feel like the only metric that you should see on a users profile is what...

        I really am against having badges at all. I don't think joining tildes early should give you any respect or prestige. I feel like the only metric that you should see on a users profile is what they've posted. Let's judge users by what they post, not when they made an account.

        11 votes
        1. [2]
          whoblowsthere
          Link Parent
          But that gets into the territory of merit-based badges, meaning they can be gameified. People will post whatever it takes for the sake of getting a badge. If they can’t control it, it can’t be...

          But that gets into the territory of merit-based badges, meaning they can be gameified. People will post whatever it takes for the sake of getting a badge.

          If they can’t control it, it can’t be gamed.

          So maybe there is no point to badges here.

          1. clone1
            Link Parent
            Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think there should be badges for posting, I don't think badges should exist at all. I mean when I click your profile I just want to see the actual comments and posts...

            Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think there should be badges for posting, I don't think badges should exist at all. I mean when I click your profile I just want to see the actual comments and posts you've made, like it is now.

            6 votes
    2. [2]
      super_james
      Link Parent
      Are you worried people will waste your time with trivial pull requests? If you deny the request (and thus the badge) then perhaps they'll go away and do some useful work?

      Are you worried people will waste your time with trivial pull requests? If you deny the request (and thus the badge) then perhaps they'll go away and do some useful work?

      2 votes
      1. Deimos
        Link Parent
        I wouldn't say I'm worried about that specific case, it was just an example of how it can change people's behavior. It gets a bit weird to start trying to judge when a particular contribution is...

        I wouldn't say I'm worried about that specific case, it was just an example of how it can change people's behavior. It gets a bit weird to start trying to judge when a particular contribution is "too trivial", and that kind of thing.

        1 vote
    3. [3]
      Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      Why not tie the trophies to the trust/reputation system for moderation? Tagger: Has achieved X upvotes in a group and demonstrated an understanding of the group's content, so now has the ability...

      Why not tie the trophies to the trust/reputation system for moderation?

      • Tagger: Has achieved X upvotes in a group and demonstrated an understanding of the group's content, so now has the ability to edit tags on other people's posts.

      • Guide: Has successfully re-tagged X posts and demonstrated a reliable and consistent use of moderation abilities, so now has the ability to move posts from one group to another.

      • Editor: Has successfully moved X posts, so now has the ability to edit post titles.

      • Reporter: Has done X, so is now able to report posts & comments for action.

      • Pruner: Has had X of their reports on comments acted on, demonstrating an ability to correctly identify problematic comments, so now has the ability to remove comments.

      ... and so on. As we progress through the trust/reputation hierarchy, we gain extra abilities - and each new level of ability can have a name, which acts as an award or trophy.

      You've gamified the behaviour you want to encourage.

      1 vote
      1. [2]
        yellow
        Link Parent
        Rewarding anything that requires something bad can go haywire very easily. A reward for posts in the wrong group encourages posts existing in the wrong group. See Cobra Effect

        Rewarding anything that requires something bad can go haywire very easily. A reward for posts in the wrong group encourages posts existing in the wrong group. See Cobra Effect

        6 votes
        1. Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          Good point. But I'm sure it would be trivial to work out if you're repeatedly moving your own posts from one group to another, rather than moving other people's posts from one group to another. I...

          Good point. But I'm sure it would be trivial to work out if you're repeatedly moving your own posts from one group to another, rather than moving other people's posts from one group to another. I also deliberately included the word "successfully" there, to indicate that these awards aren't given out to all and sundry after moving stuff around just for the sake of it. They would have to be meaningful moves.

          But, still, I suppose any rewards system is open to abuse, no matter what behaviour you're rewarding. I just thought an approach like this would at least tie the awards to something useful to Tildes, based on Deimos' correct observation that awards can influence behaviour. If we're going to influence behaviour, let's make it behaviour we want!

          1 vote
  3. [2]
    Kijafa
    (edited )
    Link
    I think badges for doing something special for the site or community would be good. If you do contribute code and it gets merged, I think it should be rewarded. I think if you contribute money to...

    I think badges for doing something special for the site or community would be good. If you do contribute code and it gets merged, I think it should be rewarded. I think if you contribute money to site upkeep, that should show maybe. Also if the site does special events of some kind, I think participation badges would be good. There might not be inherent value in them, but awards like that give people a feeling of belonging. "Yeah I was there when X happened. Sure was fun huh?"

    I think anything that incentivizes engagement and a sense of community-ownership is good, especially at this juncture. Tildes needs to get users involved and keep them involved or it'll stagnate and die off.

    6 votes
    1. yellow
      Link Parent
      A badge recognizing donation wouldn't cause any problems for other site users (as long as it isn't made too obnoxious, and I trust Tildes not to do so). Event badges aren't that bad, as they...

      A badge recognizing donation wouldn't cause any problems for other site users (as long as it isn't made too obnoxious, and I trust Tildes not to do so). Event badges aren't that bad, as they typically localize any badge hunting to where it is welcome, but require some sort of central authorization and can become annoying if done too often.

      1 vote
  4. nil-admirari
    Link
    I'm also in the no badges or any sort of designated 'specialness', as in the end it is counterproductive, imo. This breeds problems that Tildes is attempting to avoid, those problems arise from...

    I'm also in the no badges or any sort of designated 'specialness', as in the end it is counterproductive, imo. This breeds problems that Tildes is attempting to avoid, those problems arise from basic human nature that will seek out any gains in personal advantage/recognition no matter how pure the original intent is.

    I think the trust/reputation system will be adequate to provide 'oversight' roles and importantly, keep those roles fresh with new voices entering rather than a permanent and closed system of a few that make those choices. The trust/reputation system is itself the incentive, nothing else is necessary, imo. If that isn't enough for some people, then maybe Tildes isn't a good fit for them and thats ok.

    I'm selfish I admit, I don't want to see growth for growths sake here. I'm perfectly happy with a smaller forum that is of high quality and not on the scale of Reddit or its predecessors. Perhaps I'm off base but tens of thousands of comments in a popular topic is horribly tedious and I'm not sure thats what Tildes is about or wants, hopefully someone will correct me if I've misinterpreted.

    5 votes
  5. [2]
    doug3465
    Link
    I don't support the implementation of anything like this. Any scoring or awards system will impact user behavior and I'd like the site to continue to promote contributing solely for the sake of...

    I don't support the implementation of anything like this. Any scoring or awards system will impact user behavior and I'd like the site to continue to promote contributing solely for the sake of contributing and not for any sort of superiority over other users. Each topic and comment should stand on its own individual merit as opposed to the past activity of its OP.

    4 votes
    1. Amarok
      Link Parent
      Trusted user votes are going to count more heavily than a new user vote. It's the only way to distribute moderation powers. In a group with a couple million subscribers it'll break down something...

      Trusted user votes are going to count more heavily than a new user vote. It's the only way to distribute moderation powers.

      In a group with a couple million subscribers it'll break down something like this, in theory...

      • around 10,000 top contributors, oldest subscribers, and moderators have a 5 point vote
      • next tier of 100,000 users are mature subscribers and regular contributors, 3-4 point vote
      • next tier of 1,000,000 users have been around long enough to learn the ropes, 2-3 point vote
      • remaining 2,000,000 users aren't even a year old yet, between 1-2 point vote
      • the 150,000 new subscribers this month have a 1 point vote at best
      • bans now have real teeth, earning one's way back in is not easy and takes time
      • brigading voters have a 1 point vote since they don't subscribe or contribute, blunting brigades
      • spammers have very little vote power since they are stuck using new accounts

      Their weights won't ever effect their own comments and submissions, though. That's fairly critical to avoid creating power users like what happened on Digg towards the end. At least that way it takes multiple people to bump something up the page.

      1 vote
  6. [2]
    patience_limited
    Link
    It's not just the distorting powers of rewards, and the potentially addictive nature of gamification, each of which has its own evils. There's the inherent privilege granted to early adopters who...

    It's not just the distorting powers of rewards, and the potentially addictive nature of gamification, each of which has its own evils.

    There's the inherent privilege granted to early adopters who may vacuum up the "wall of badges. This doesn't just create imbalances of perceived power and reputation, but actively intimidates new users and fosters unnecessary resentments. I've seen karma/badges/seniority used to command ex cathedra levels of authority for posts where the author was clearly inexpert. I haven't yet seen a proposal above that fully mitigates this problem.

    3 votes
    1. zoec
      Link Parent
      You point does resonate here with me! Power imbalance is really tricky, and I guess that part of the reasons we flock here is to leave behind the energy-draining kind of power dynamics prevalent...

      You point does resonate here with me! Power imbalance is really tricky, and I guess that part of the reasons we flock here is to leave behind the energy-draining kind of power dynamics prevalent in today's Internet landscape. It's important that we be very careful when introducing new artefacts here, because all artefacts bear power relations, and we must examine what they'll do to us in the long term.

      Personally, I'd rather we do without them. A badge is judgemental, even if the displayed judgement tends to be "positive". To a visitor viewing another user's profile, it creates a directive of pre-manufactured judgement. To the user, it creates incentives not necessarily aligned with their best interests and interpersonal styles.

      Instead of badges, I'd more like to see a text space for a short self-introduction, or any other free-form text, on the profile page. Self-expression is empowering, creative, and more authentic; I'm afraid auto-granted badges are not.

      3 votes