5 votes

Topic deleted by author
This topic is locked. New comments can not be posted.

72 comments

  1. [25]
    Deimos
    (edited )
    Link
    Nobody's ever happy about moderation that impacts them. They always think it's unfair that their post was removed, or whatever. Every single time I take any moderation action, I know that it's...

    Nobody's ever happy about moderation that impacts them. They always think it's unfair that their post was removed, or whatever. Every single time I take any moderation action, I know that it's probably going to piss off at least one person. But that doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do. One of Tildes's main priorities is to try to have higher quality, which means that by necessity, some lower-quality things will need to be removed/locked/whatever.

    I'm not sure why you're so upset about not being able to continue your conversation about... how pointless and outrage-based the topic/story was. If that's how you felt about it, you should be happy that the thread is no longer continuing to get attention and we're moving on to better topics. Being angry that you can't perpetuate the exact thing you're complaining about makes no sense.

    If you want to continue your conversations, you can also message the people you wanted to reply to. You can easily still have the conversation, just not in the thread, because the site is better off without it.

    14 votes
    1. [6]
      Adys
      Link Parent
      Three random thoughts: I agree with the whole topic being locked. It was just all noise and the article was poor, will not be missed. Sub-thread locking is a very interesting idea, would be cool...

      Three random thoughts:

      • I agree with the whole topic being locked. It was just all noise and the article was poor, will not be missed.
      • Sub-thread locking is a very interesting idea, would be cool to have. Worth considering as a feature request?
      • @ubergeek was unbelievably out of line in the subthread that went off the rails. Putting aside the validity of their opinion, "being polite and not swearing" isn't good enough for an argument to be in good faith. What I'm reading is in extreme bad faith and reeks of the classic "I fixed a problem in my life; so everyone else who still has it is a loser who can't get their shit together" that you often see in communities trying to stop smoking/drinking, lose weight, or even incels.
      6 votes
      1. [2]
        nothis
        Link Parent
        Not sure if I'd call it "unbelievably out of line". Can we seriously not discuss the current trend of denying that obesity is unhealthy?

        @ubergeek was unbelievably out of line in the subthread that went off the rails. Putting aside the validity of their opinion, "being polite and not swearing" isn't good enough for an argument to be in good faith.

        Not sure if I'd call it "unbelievably out of line". Can we seriously not discuss the current trend of denying that obesity is unhealthy?

        1. Adys
          Link Parent
          Seeing as I personally think obesity is unhealthy and I despise the trend that some people think it's okay to say being obese is fine and fat-is-beautiful… then yes, of course we can discuss that....

          Seeing as I personally think obesity is unhealthy and I despise the trend that some people think it's okay to say being obese is fine and fat-is-beautiful… then yes, of course we can discuss that. That wasn't my point, and isn't what the problem is with that person's arguments.

          1 vote
      2. [3]
        ubergeek
        Link Parent
        I'm not sure if calling out obesity as a huge problem is "out of line", especially when said so in a polite manner. Yeah, same with smokers. They are choosing to not avail themselves of the myriad...

        I'm not sure if calling out obesity as a huge problem is "out of line", especially when said so in a polite manner.

        Yeah, same with smokers. They are choosing to not avail themselves of the myriad solutions available to them to help them break it. Difference between the two, however? Nicotine is physically addictive, food is not.

        I'm sorry if you got called to the carpet, and now find offense that the staff here decided to lock the thread. I wouldn't get you knickers knotted up over it. It was just a thread, among billions on the internet.

        1. [2]
          Adys
          Link Parent
          In that thread, you were confronted by several people on the tone and form of your arguments. You refused to hear them out and you continued defending points that were non-issues; just like you're...

          In that thread, you were confronted by several people on the tone and form of your arguments. You refused to hear them out and you continued defending points that were non-issues; just like you're doing now in fact, so I'm not going to engage further with you.

          I'm sorry if you got called to the carpet, and now find offense that the staff here decided to lock the thread

          I hadn't seen the thread until I saw this one. I therefore did not participate in it, and as I said I agreed it's better gone than not, regardless of the noise you created.

          3 votes
          1. ubergeek
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            The "noise" as you call it was an opposing opinion, one that is supported by science, rather than emotion. I'm sorry you feel it's noise. I, however, won't turn down the volume on the "noise"....

            regardless of the noise you created.

            The "noise" as you call it was an opposing opinion, one that is supported by science, rather than emotion.

            I'm sorry you feel it's noise. I, however, won't turn down the volume on the "noise". Perhaps you can yell at clouds elsewhere?

            That being said, even if you didn't participate there, you did here, likely because you felt singled out. I'm sorry. People often do when their personal faults are highlighted.

            And, I wasn't called out by "several people", but by one, maybe 2. Because they were personally offended for having their personal faults highlighted.

    2. [11]
      emdash
      Link Parent
      Keep doing what you're doing and ignore nonsense like this. If I was a moderator here, I would've locked this thread as well, which is what we did when I was a moderator of a large subreddit on...

      Keep doing what you're doing and ignore nonsense like this. If I was a moderator here, I would've locked this thread as well, which is what we did when I was a moderator of a large subreddit on Reddit.

      Drama attracts drama and the only way to root it out is to kill it with fire indiscriminately. Sorry OP, if you don't like the lone admin's actions, you're free to leave.

      5 votes
      1. [10]
        Adys
        Link Parent
        This is an unproductive thing to say. If OP doesn't like the lone admin's action, they're also free to make a thread raising the issue, which they did. (And if you don't like my reply to your...

        Sorry OP, if you don't like the lone admin's actions, you're free to leave.

        This is an unproductive thing to say. If OP doesn't like the lone admin's action, they're also free to make a thread raising the issue, which they did. (And if you don't like my reply to your comment, you too are free to leave… see how it's not useful?)

        4 votes
        1. alyaza
          Link Parent
          yeah, the idea that people need to basically "love it or leave it" is ridiculous. there are many legitimate gripes about tildes and things we can improve on, and moderation is definitely one of...

          yeah, the idea that people need to basically "love it or leave it" is ridiculous. there are many legitimate gripes about tildes and things we can improve on, and moderation is definitely one of those things. i don't particularly buy the OP opinion here (as i've said downthread), but that doesn't mean that there aren't things we can do with moderation around here that might be better than how we currently do things as we await better moderator infrastructure and additional moderators on the site itself.

          4 votes
        2. [3]
          emdash
          Link Parent
          Are they really free to do so? As long as it's in keeping with Tildes' rules and intent, sure. But Tildes is a high quality discussion community, not your local pub-shouting forum for airing dirty...

          Are they really free to do so? As long as it's in keeping with Tildes' rules and intent, sure. But Tildes is a high quality discussion community, not your local pub-shouting forum for airing dirty laundry or posting excessive meta-commentary. I would argue that they're not free to do so, as it contravenes the intent of Tildes; thus, justifying my comment for why I would remove and burn this entire thread to the ground.

          1. [2]
            Adys
            Link Parent
            They're free to do so and if Deimos doesn't like it he's free to ban the user. If you don't like my interpretation of the situation you're free to disagree, and if you don't like this thread,...

            They're free to do so and if Deimos doesn't like it he's free to ban the user. If you don't like my interpretation of the situation you're free to disagree, and if you don't like this thread, you're free to ignore it.

            My point is that "you're free to X" is an unproductive thing to say. I sure as fuck hope nobody's holding anyone at gunpoint. As a community, we should be welcoming of people airing feedback, even if it's negative (as long as it's constructive, which I have no reason to believe this post not to be). That doesn't mean it needs to be acted on, nor that @Deimos acted incorrectly (I don't believe he did). But it can lead to good feedback and if anything, it means you're not discouraging others from airing their own feedback.

            3 votes
            1. emdash
              Link Parent
              Feedback is only valuable if it's constructive. What I saw was a lot of posturing from many and the airing of a lot of dirty laundry. They're not "free to do so" if the intent isn't one of...

              Feedback is only valuable if it's constructive. What I saw was a lot of posturing from many and the airing of a lot of dirty laundry. They're not "free to do so" if the intent isn't one of positive improvement, and my gauge on this thread was that it was more focused on griping than constructive feedback.

        3. [5]
          ubergeek
          Link Parent
          Nope, that's exactly what adults do. If a bar doesn't have the right atmosphere, they find another bar to go to. Tildes is open source. You are free to launch your own instance, running the same...

          Nope, that's exactly what adults do. If a bar doesn't have the right atmosphere, they find another bar to go to.

          Tildes is open source. You are free to launch your own instance, running the same exact code.

          1. [4]
            Adys
            Link Parent
            I went to a bar a couple of months ago where the music was too loud. It was okay when I arrived, but my group spent an hour there and by then it was much louder. Did I up and leave? No. Like the...

            I went to a bar a couple of months ago where the music was too loud. It was okay when I arrived, but my group spent an hour there and by then it was much louder.

            Did I up and leave? No. Like the grown-ass adult I am, I let the owner know and he was happy to turn it down a notch. Everyone was happier for it, and I still regularly go to that lovely bar instead of being so afraid of confrontation that I can't engage someone to give them actionable feedback.

            You know why? Because I'm free to do that.

            1 vote
            1. [3]
              ubergeek
              Link Parent
              You are, true. But, if the owner didn't turn it down? What would you do then? Like in this instance, where the decision isn't being changed?

              You are, true. But, if the owner didn't turn it down? What would you do then? Like in this instance, where the decision isn't being changed?

              1. [2]
                Adys
                Link Parent
                If the owner had politely told me they can't, or had a good reason not to, then yes I likely would have left or at the very least moved tables because it was annoying enough for me to. Nobody was...

                If the owner had politely told me they can't, or had a good reason not to, then yes I likely would have left or at the very least moved tables because it was annoying enough for me to. Nobody was holding me at gun point.

                However, had the owner rudely told me "you're free to leave if you don't like it" like I'm some kind of idiot who doesn't realize I've not been kidnapped, I most likely would have done so without paying.

                The thing about not being a dick is that it gets you far in life. OP is a grown adult -- or, actually I've no idea, but even if they're a teenager or child I'm sure they're mature enough to understand that yes, they're free to leave. Nobody needs to tell them that. And having a "love it or leave it" attitude as @alyaza says is unnecessary and unproductive.

                2 votes
                1. ubergeek
                  Link Parent
                  So you would steal services, to make a point? Ok. I'd pay, and then leave, personally. And find a more suitable place. Akin to your analogy, I actually had this happen. Decided to hold a meeting...

                  I most likely would have done so without paying.

                  So you would steal services, to make a point? Ok.

                  I'd pay, and then leave, personally. And find a more suitable place.

                  Akin to your analogy, I actually had this happen. Decided to hold a meeting somewhere, music was too loud, I asked owner if he could turn it down, and he turned it up and said,"You're not in jail. Find somewhere else if you don't like the volume."

                  I paid, and left. There are still many patrons there, who love the music that loud. I don't.

    3. [6]
      lepigpen
      Link Parent
      But there were 2 people in a singular thread line with me. Unless messaging has a group function is ruins the ability to cross post and potentially bring in new people to the discussion. We...

      But there were 2 people in a singular thread line with me. Unless messaging has a group function is ruins the ability to cross post and potentially bring in new people to the discussion.

      We weren't discussing outrage anymore, if you look into it we began to discuss what F21's true intentions were and what their program was and how they would go about things if nothing was ever reported. And user KRG had a good comment as well.

      It looks like this isn't going to be a discussion for change but a justification of "whats done is done". So I'll just sit in the corner and accept what Tildes offers me.

      1 vote
      1. [5]
        Loire
        Link Parent
        There's a number of specific posters here, and I've admittedly been one of them when I don't watch myself, that get into pointless back and forths on the politically charged threads. Nobody on...

        There's a number of specific posters here, and I've admittedly been one of them when I don't watch myself, that get into pointless back and forths on the politically charged threads. Nobody on either side budges because both sides do nothing but misinterpret their opponents and throw up strawmen.

        There's nothing to be gained from those threads continuing.

        I do however like your idea of being able to lock specific threads within a post without locking down the entire post itself. @Deimos is that something thats conceivably possible or is that outside of the functioning of the tildes architecture?

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          Deimos
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Yes, it's very possible (pretty easy, even). It doesn't necessarily solve a lot of situations nicely though, since it means that you have to put locks all over the place to prevent people from...

          Yes, it's very possible (pretty easy, even). It doesn't necessarily solve a lot of situations nicely though, since it means that you have to put locks all over the place to prevent people from just starting up the same thing again if they can find a different "entry point", or even just starting a new top-level thread for it.

          Even if it was available I probably would have locked/removed the entire thread anyway. I don't think it was a good topic—it's an "outrage of the day" type one about a company doing something dumb, people misinterpreting it and freaking out on the internet, and the company apologizing. Nobody will even remember it next week. It's the type of story that's excellent at getting a ton of attention on the internet but has almost no actual value to anyone.

          (mention for @Adys too since this answered one of their questions)

          6 votes
          1. lepigpen
            Link Parent
            Looks like I just learned a valuable lesson in, just message Deimos personally next time since it's a small community. Yikes

            Looks like I just learned a valuable lesson in, just message Deimos personally next time since it's a small community. Yikes

        2. [2]
          lepigpen
          Link Parent
          Just want to say thanks for keeping this thread on topic in regards to a new mod function. Another user has seemingly turned it into a "lepigpen is angry because he disagrees with me" thread and...

          Just want to say thanks for keeping this thread on topic in regards to a new mod function. Another user has seemingly turned it into a "lepigpen is angry because he disagrees with me" thread and totally derailed what I actually posted in my original.

          1. emdash
            Link Parent
            This comment in itself is one I'd consider "malicious". You're baiting people by posting comments like this. Step back and stop making things overly personal by getting excessively invested.

            This comment in itself is one I'd consider "malicious". You're baiting people by posting comments like this. Step back and stop making things overly personal by getting excessively invested.

            8 votes
    4. Diff
      Link Parent
      If it was one thread that wasn't living up to Tildes' standards, why not just nuke that individual thread and leave the rest unlocked and unharmed? If it wasn't something like unavoidable about...

      If it was one thread that wasn't living up to Tildes' standards, why not just nuke that individual thread and leave the rest unlocked and unharmed? If it wasn't something like unavoidable about the topic itself, I mean.

      If there was nothing wrong with the topic itself would it be valid to repost it?

  2. [31]
    Algernon_Asimov
    Link
    The existing moderation tools on Tildes are very basic: @Deimos can remove a comment (or a group of comments, if he does it one by one). @Deimos can remove a topic. @Deimos can lock a whole...

    I'm not sure if the site has the ability to lock one particular threadline or lock one particular user out of that thread/sub. (I imagine this site has topic banning just like reddit has sub banning.)

    The existing moderation tools on Tildes are very basic:

    • @Deimos can remove a comment (or a group of comments, if he does it one by one).

    • @Deimos can remove a topic.

    • @Deimos can lock a whole thread. Not parts of a thread, only the whole thread.

    • @Deimos can ban a user from Tildes. Not from individual groups, only the whole website.

    That's about it, as far as I've seen.

    This leads to what appears to be overreactions on Deimos' part, because he doesn't really have the ability to enact more specific or subtle moderation responses.

    6 votes
    1. [30]
      lepigpen
      Link Parent
      Oh... Well... if we are going to operate with basic tools shouldn't we be a bit more lenient on when and why we moderate things. Meh. RIP nuance. Was looking forward to a conversation about that...

      Oh... Well... if we are going to operate with basic tools shouldn't we be a bit more lenient on when and why we moderate things.

      Meh. RIP nuance.

      Was looking forward to a conversation about that topic.

      1 vote
      1. [10]
        alyaza
        Link Parent
        i feel like deimos was pretty clear on why that topic was locked when he said this, personally: there are cases where maybe he is quick on the trigger and a bit too punitive with topics, but this...

        i feel like deimos was pretty clear on why that topic was locked when he said this, personally:

        Alright, this is pretty much all entirely off-topic bickering where nobody's going to budge anyway. Let's do something more interesting today than re-hash the same points 50 more times.

        there are cases where maybe he is quick on the trigger and a bit too punitive with topics, but this really is not one of them and those cases where he is are justifiable for the reasons algernon outlined.

        9 votes
        1. [9]
          lepigpen
          Link Parent
          So... Do I have to pull up the comments from the conversation I was having to prove that it is not off topic bickering? Again, I was in a thread with maybe 3 other people having a mature...

          So... Do I have to pull up the comments from the conversation I was having to prove that it is not off topic bickering?

          Again, I was in a thread with maybe 3 other people having a mature conversation. And apparently the immature conversation of 2 people causes a lock on an entire thread. So apparently volume, quantity of posts, wins in this regard. More mature people got locked out of a thread for less immature people. Immature people win lol

          1 vote
          1. [8]
            alyaza
            Link Parent
            i mean, i was a part of the thread so i am aware of what happened. i am also intensely critical of the fact that many people on this website come from the same relatively-well-off background and...

            Again, I was in a thread with maybe 3 other people having a mature conversation. And apparently the immature conversation of 2 people causes a lock on an entire thread. So apparently volume, quantity of posts, wins in this regard. More mature people got locked out of a thread for less immature people. Immature people win lol

            i mean, i was a part of the thread so i am aware of what happened. i am also intensely critical of the fact that many people on this website come from the same relatively-well-off background and don't as a consequence know how to really discuss some of the more charged issues on here (mostly racial or socioeconomic) without feeling attacked by people who live those issues and think that we probably need to recruit more people who actually live those issues accordingly so we don't have this problem with every nominally controversial thread that exists. however, i also recognize that since that's not currently a thing happening, the next best solution is really to just not let these discussions escalate massively as they often do, even if that means sometimes locking threads only at the hands of one or two people being shitheads on account of deimos being the only mod. like, we can have those sorts of discussions later. it's not like they're off the table forever!

            7 votes
            1. [3]
              Loire
              Link Parent
              Alternatively you could accept that just because many posters aren't destitute doesn't make their opinion any less valid on every single topic, that one can learn without experience, that one with...

              Alternatively you could accept that just because many posters aren't destitute doesn't make their opinion any less valid on every single topic, that one can learn without experience, that one with experience can be wrong on the causes and outcomes of that experience, and, most importantly that constantly treating your fellow posters with contempt for their socioeconomic status does not make them particularely willing to engage with you respectfully.

              4 votes
              1. [2]
                alyaza
                Link Parent
                i'm not relitigating this, dude.

                i'm not relitigating this, dude.

                4 votes
                1. alyaza
                  Link Parent
                  since apparently i didn't make this clear enough, if i can make a public statement here: if someone tells you that they're not interested in continuing a conversation, please kindly do not DM them...

                  since apparently i didn't make this clear enough, if i can make a public statement here:

                  if someone tells you that they're not interested in continuing a conversation, please kindly do not DM them trying to continue that conversation and especially don't include a passive aggressive snipe about taking a "swipe at a majority of tildes users" for the heinous crime of being poor and telling my experiences how they are and advocating that maybe we should get more representation of people who live those experiences so this website is not just mostly people explaining on poor people's behalf (or black people's behalf, or nonbinary people's behalf, or anyone's behalf really) and we can actually have multifaceted conversations instead of ones that are dominated by very similar perspectives and have only one or two token alternative voices.

                  i feel like this is really not that demanding of a request.

                  3 votes
            2. [4]
              lepigpen
              Link Parent
              So I re open the exact same link and topic right now because I would like to have these discussions and what? I get banned? lol I mean if that is how people react to the topic that is likely how...

              So I re open the exact same link and topic right now because I would like to have these discussions and what? I get banned? lol

              I mean if that is how people react to the topic that is likely how they will react or where it will go.

              Might as well make a new rule for Tildes: "dont post topics about weight because at least one person will clearly be oversensitive to it and you can sure as shit guarantee a troll-ish personality will take that opportunity to behave under-sensitive to it"

              1 vote
              1. [3]
                alyaza
                Link Parent
                i don't think that's really necessary in a broad sense, although in some cases it might be needed; what i think it means is that we need to encourage a community which among other things...

                I mean if that is how people react to the topic that is likely how they will react or where it will go.
                Might as well make a new rule for Tildes: "dont post topics about weight because at least one person will clearly be oversensitive to it and you can sure as shit guarantee a troll-ish personality will take that opportunity to behave under-sensitive to it"

                i don't think that's really necessary in a broad sense, although in some cases it might be needed; what i think it means is that we need to encourage a community which among other things recognizes nuances better instead of peddling absolutist ideas (especially on economic and social issues), defers more to people who live those experiences and have experience with the subjects we discuss on here instead of trying to be know-it-alls on everything, and--as much as people might not like the idea--actually strive to bring more women and minority voices onto tildes so that it's not just a bunch of middle-class, predominantly young white men shooting the shit about hot-button issues most of the time.

                those things are all hard, of course, and they're going to be things that take tons of time to occur on here and might never be done to absolute satisfaction--but we should always be striving to make this place better, and i think those are things which will be great assets in promoting the goals of this site and easing the inherent fight that is maintaining a high-quality platform of discussion.

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  lepigpen
                  Link Parent
                  We maintained a high-quality discussion by voting the non-fat-shamer and not voting the fat-shamer, thread still got locked. I think it's a shame people are going to engage in flame wars that...

                  We maintained a high-quality discussion by voting the non-fat-shamer and not voting the fat-shamer, thread still got locked.

                  I think it's a shame people are going to engage in flame wars that cause threads to get locked. There WAS a lot more to discuss on that topic that was actually F21 based but people chose to turn it into an obesity argument. Shame on those users. The true topic was about a corporation having a bad PR move and what constitutes proper handling of the situation.

                  1. Whom
                    Link Parent
                    Many of us don't agree that a high quality discussion is shit-slinging where the correct person has most of the community support. It's better than shit-slinging where they don't, for sure, but I...

                    Many of us don't agree that a high quality discussion is shit-slinging where the correct person has most of the community support. It's better than shit-slinging where they don't, for sure, but I think we can aim for better.

                    2 votes
      2. [19]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        Why? What would be the benefit to Tildes of letting that discussion about obesity continue? Remember: to allow you to make the comments you wanted in that thread, Deimos would also have to let...

        Well... if we are going to operate with basic tools shouldn't we be a bit more lenient on when and why we moderate things.

        Why? What would be the benefit to Tildes of letting that discussion about obesity continue? Remember: to allow you to make the comments you wanted in that thread, Deimos would also have to let that "one guy" keep commenting, and let everyone else keep replying to that "one guy". It's all or nothing.

        Would the benefit of your comments (which Deimos hasn't seen yet) outweigh the drawbacks of those other comments (which Deimos has seen)? Would the nett effect of "ADD lepigpen's comments LESS that other conversation" be a positive or negative outcome for Tildes?

        Meh. RIP nuance.

        Nuance isn't dead: it isn't born yet. Remember that Tildes is a work in progress, which is still officially in alpha testing. More detailed moderation tools will exist in the future. They just don't exist now.

        4 votes
        1. [18]
          lepigpen
          Link Parent
          Benefit? I dunno, what is the objective "benefit" of anything at all being discussed or posted on Tildes? If we are going to use that train of thought. Also why do I have to win against a troll to...

          Benefit? I dunno, what is the objective "benefit" of anything at all being discussed or posted on Tildes? If we are going to use that train of thought.

          Also why do I have to win against a troll to justify my ability to post on Tildes. I was merely talking about me and other users who invested in a discussion and I never got to respond because it locked before I checked back here.

          Again, you can say lepigpen vs troll all you want. But I said in my post, one troll should not affect multiple user's experience.

          Or another way to put it, if it was that bad to be locked? Ban the user. If it wasn't that bad to ban the user, don't lock the thread. That is the lack of nuance right there.

          1. [17]
            Algernon_Asimov
            Link Parent
            Do you seriously believe that "one guy's" behaviour was bad enough to warrant being banned from the whole site? Even in my nastiest "fascist mod" moments, I wouldn't be able to justify that. They...

            Do you seriously believe that "one guy's" behaviour was bad enough to warrant being banned from the whole site? Even in my nastiest "fascist mod" moments, I wouldn't be able to justify that. They were being dogmatic and pushy, but they weren't actually being nasty or disruptive. Would you ban someone just for arguing an unpopular opinion?

            Or should that "one guy" be allowed to just continue their behaviour, with the thread continuing to be a home for pointless arguments, with everyone just going round and round in circles?

            There is a middle ground between banning someone who isn't breaking the rules, and allowing them to run rampant and cause silly arguments: lock the thread where the arguments are happening. Stop the problem. Let everyone, including that "one guy", know that what's happening there isn't acceptable.

            5 votes
            1. [3]
              Gaywallet
              Link Parent
              Temp bans? User specific locks from replying to a specific thread? I think there's alternative solutions. Not sure what's right here, just tossing in my 2c

              Temp bans? User specific locks from replying to a specific thread?

              I think there's alternative solutions. Not sure what's right here, just tossing in my 2c

              3 votes
              1. [2]
                Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                If you read my parent comment in this thread, you'll see that those moderation tools do not currently exist on Tildes. Deimos has to work with what he's got.

                If you read my parent comment in this thread, you'll see that those moderation tools do not currently exist on Tildes. Deimos has to work with what he's got.

                2 votes
                1. Gaywallet
                  Link Parent
                  Right, just offering suggestions

                  Right, just offering suggestions

                  4 votes
            2. [13]
              lepigpen
              Link Parent
              Again, more people have a worse experience because 1, arguably 2, people are immature. It looks like you won't be able to see things from my perspective so I guess there is nothing to be done...

              Again, more people have a worse experience because 1, arguably 2, people are immature.

              It looks like you won't be able to see things from my perspective so I guess there is nothing to be done about it. I'm just less interested in having long form, mature conversation here now.

              Back to clickbait titles and sob stories in personal threads it is for me!

              1. [12]
                Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                I can see things from your perspective. I've had your perspective presented to me many many times in my 6+ years of moderating on Reddit. I understand your perspective better than you think I do....

                I can see things from your perspective. I've had your perspective presented to me many many times in my 6+ years of moderating on Reddit. I understand your perspective better than you think I do.

                I just disagree with that perspective.

                And I think you're not understanding other people's perspectives: Deimos' perspective, and other Tildes users' perspectives. I think you're allowing your anger to block your ability to see this issue from other people's points of view. You're not the only person involved here. Deimos has to balance conflicting requirements: your requirement to participate and other people's requirements to not put up with silly arguments. Were the positives of keeping that thread open going to outweigh the negatives? Were your comments in that thread really going to be so good as to justify keeping that silly argument going?

                And that's my last word on this. I'm clearly not getting through to you. You want to be pissed off about this. So I'll leave you be.

                3 votes
                1. [11]
                  lepigpen
                  Link Parent
                  The entire point... Of this thread... Was to discuss an existing tool or a new tool to lock a threadline or create a thread/topic ban for one user. And it's been turned into I am angry that I...

                  The entire point... Of this thread... Was to discuss an existing tool or a new tool to lock a threadline or create a thread/topic ban for one user.

                  And it's been turned into I am angry that I didn't get my toys. That's a horrible look for Tildes community imo

                  1 vote
                  1. [6]
                    cfabbro
                    (edited )
                    Link Parent
                    If that was the genuine intention of this topic then you went about it in a somewhat strange and unproductive way, IMO. E.g. the whole ”everybody here respects Deimos so it's pretty clear there...

                    If that was the genuine intention of this topic then you went about it in a somewhat strange and unproductive way, IMO. E.g. the whole ”everybody here respects Deimos so it's pretty clear there won't be checks and balances“ thing comes across as a bit of a weird attack, which sets a rather confrontational tone for the whole discussion.

                    3 votes
                    1. [5]
                      lepigpen
                      Link Parent
                      Why does it have to be an attack and not an observation that makes logical human sense? He is the creator of the website. He is going to have a disproportionate amount of supporters. I'm not...

                      Why does it have to be an attack and not an observation that makes logical human sense? He is the creator of the website. He is going to have a disproportionate amount of supporters. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying it's almost certainly the truth.

                      If you have a counter to it, by all means.

                      1. [4]
                        cfabbro
                        Link Parent
                        I’m sorry but counter what, exactly? What does him being the site creator have to do with checks and balances? Sure, this isn’t a Democracy and Deimos has the final word here, but just because he...

                        I’m sorry but counter what, exactly? What does him being the site creator have to do with checks and balances? Sure, this isn’t a Democracy and Deimos has the final word here, but just because he is the site creator doesn’t mean I or everyone will always agree with him and never challenge him on decisions we disagree with... and you’re currently discussing this all on a meta group which allows for exactly that. But just because the majority of users seemingly disagree with someone here with an opinion that runs contrary to Deimos’ doesn’t mean this place is only full of sycophants either.

                        1. [3]
                          lepigpen
                          Link Parent
                          Lol asking what to counter and then effectively countering. I see you Put simply, a fat acceptance thread would do totally fine here. A fat shaming thread will get locked/removed. I don't disagree...

                          Lol asking what to counter and then effectively countering. I see you

                          Put simply, a fat acceptance thread would do totally fine here. A fat shaming thread will get locked/removed. I don't disagree with that, even though I'm on neither side of the debate I don't give a shit about people's appearance or health decisions in that way. But In those regards I hope it's crystal clear that this entire website leans not only a certain direction but maybe even a singular subset of that general direction considering there is likely to a be a TON of young, caucasian, left-leaning males. And then of course many of our females will also be young and left-leaning. Many of our older users will be left-leaning males. You see the picture I'm painting. If you're not 3 of the things you're probably 2 of the things ya know?

                          Basically, you don't need sycophants when your demographic is already set in stone. So, while I can admit I worded that part poorly. I just want to know if you disagree with me that that is the truth. Do you believe that Tildes has an overwhelming majority demographic thus creating a "vacuum"? And do you agree Deimos has the support of Tildes users, by no fault of his own?

                          1. cfabbro
                            (edited )
                            Link Parent
                            In case it wasn’t obvious, the reason I asked what to counter is because I am genuinely confused as to the overall points you’re trying to make here, and so am basically grasping at straws trying...

                            Lol asking what to counter and then effectively countering. I see you

                            In case it wasn’t obvious, the reason I asked what to counter is because I am genuinely confused as to the overall points you’re trying to make here, and so am basically grasping at straws trying to figure out how to address them and you. The fact that I seemingly (going by your response) guessed correctly is luck more than anything.

                            And I honestly really don’t understand the tangent you are seemingly trying to go on. What does all this have to do with locking that topic and/or discussing alternate options to that? All of which again I think speaks to the fact you are really going about this in a seemingly needlessly confrontation way.

                            2 votes
                          2. Algernon_Asimov
                            Link Parent
                            You might be interested in a previous comment of mine that addresses this: “While this site is not deliberately intended to be a safe space for left-wing politics, I believe it will end up with a...

                            Do you believe that Tildes has an overwhelming majority demographic thus creating a "vacuum"?

                            You might be interested in a previous comment of mine that addresses this:

                            While this site is not deliberately intended to be a safe space for left-wing politics, I believe it will end up with a strong left-wing bias, due to its rules and its philosophy.


                            And do you agree Deimos has the support of Tildes users, by no fault of his own?

                            This is a bit like agreeing that most people in a knitting club like knitting. Most people who sign up to Tildes do so because they agree with what Deimos is trying to do here, and because they support him in doing it. You wouldn't hang around a knitting club if you thought knitting was stupid... would you?

                  2. ReapersGale
                    Link Parent
                    I'm going to have to agree with @cfabbro below - you could have made your post as constructive criticism, you could have just kept it at 'can we have some more nuanced mod tools such as xyz as...

                    I'm going to have to agree with @cfabbro below - you could have made your post as constructive criticism, you could have just kept it at 'can we have some more nuanced mod tools such as xyz as locking the entire topic is overkill and stifles legitimate discussion' instead your post has poor optics that makes it look like you have contempt for the community before we even start discussing your gripe and that's an extremely poor way to get people to sympathise with you - even if they do agree with your stance.

                    Further to this whilst your thread was spawned by this specific instance of a bad PR event there is very little in it that's unique to the F21 situation in it - what is stopping you from posting a new topic with a different example that's not as heated at present or even a hypothetical abstracted one? You could even tag the folk from the other thread to get them involved.

                    At the end of the day I and some others in this thread agree that some more nuanced mod tools would be beneficial; but how you have behaved and argued is like you're 'angry that I didn't get my toys' and folk are calling you on it.

                    3 votes
                  3. [3]
                    Algernon_Asimov
                    Link Parent
                    Was it? I don't see anything like that in your post. It's all about how you're "not a fan" of being locked out, and your personal feelings about that. The closest you get to even mentioning site...

                    The entire point... Of this thread... Was to discuss an existing tool or a new tool to lock a threadline or create a thread/topic ban for one user.

                    Was it? I don't see anything like that in your post. It's all about how you're "not a fan" of being locked out, and your personal feelings about that.

                    The closest you get to even mentioning site features is this:

                    If we are going to do this thing where somebody holds the hammer I'd like to know when and why they are going to use it. And I would like to mention checks and balances

                    Even that comes across more as a criticism of Deimos' behaviour than an attempt to suggest new features for Tildes.

                    1 vote
                    1. [2]
                      lepigpen
                      Link Parent
                      Didn't you say you were going to leave me alone just above? This was in my original post: "I'm not sure if the site has the ability to lock one particular threadline or lock one particular user...

                      Didn't you say you were going to leave me alone just above?

                      This was in my original post: "I'm not sure if the site has the ability to lock one particular threadline or lock one particular user out of that thread/sub. (I imagine this site has topic banning just like reddit has sub banning.)"

                      1. Algernon_Asimov
                        Link Parent
                        I wrote “that's my last word on this” - “this” being how you didn't like that thread being locked. Then you raised a new point, implying that I'd been talking about the wrong thing all along. And...

                        Didn't you say you were going to leave me alone just above?

                        I wrote “that's my last word on this” - “this” being how you didn't like that thread being locked. Then you raised a new point, implying that I'd been talking about the wrong thing all along.

                        This was in my original post: "I'm not sure if the site has the ability to lock one particular threadline or lock one particular user out of that thread/sub. (I imagine this site has topic banning just like reddit has sub banning.)"

                        And my original reply tried to address that point (because I didn't want to delve into the outrage which the majority of your post was about) - but you replied to my supposedly on-topic comment about Tildes features with more negativity, rather than making any constructive suggestions.

  3. cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    This happened to me on a topic I was having a great discussion on cyberpunk fiction in too, which was annoying. But while it’s not ideal, it’s absolutely understandable, since Tildes is still in...

    This happened to me on a topic I was having a great discussion on cyberpunk fiction in too, which was annoying. But while it’s not ideal, it’s absolutely understandable, since Tildes is still in alpha with limited moderation tools available, and Deimos only has limited time to devote to babysitting contentious topics.

    I do like your suggestion of only locking the offending thread or preventing select users from continuing to participate in them though, which may be problematic but still worth exploring as options, so I added it to gitlab:
    https://gitlab.com/tildes/tildes/issues/522

    I'd like to know when and why they are going to use it ... everybody here respects Deimos so it's pretty clear there won't be checks and balances

    I’m not quite sure what you mean by those statements though... since the when/why is rather self-evident if you read the Tildes Code of Conduct and Terms of Service, AFAIK every time Deimos has locked a topic he has made a comment explaining why he did so, and you’re currently participating in ~tildes which is a means of providing “checks and balances”.

    5 votes
  4. [2]
    JXM
    Link
    Some context for those of us who have no clue what thread you’re talking about would be nice...

    Some context for those of us who have no clue what thread you’re talking about would be nice...

    2 votes
  5. [2]
    Diet_Coke
    Link
    The lock function was invented because of me, it's honestly for the best when Deimos locks a thread. You can still discuss the topic when it comes up again, hopefully in an environment of less animus.

    The lock function was invented because of me, it's honestly for the best when Deimos locks a thread. You can still discuss the topic when it comes up again, hopefully in an environment of less animus.

    2 votes
    1. lepigpen
      Link Parent
      History repeats itself. And hoping that something will change by some act of luck or course of nature is a lot less appealing than asking for change from the people in control of the platform....

      History repeats itself. And hoping that something will change by some act of luck or course of nature is a lot less appealing than asking for change from the people in control of the platform. That's all I'm doin

      1 vote
  6. [11]
    mrbig
    (edited )
    Link
    I disagreed with mod actions on Tildes before, but I refrained from criticizing because @Deimos is only one person, and he clearly makes decisions within the constraints of his schedule, ability,...

    I disagreed with mod actions on Tildes before, but I refrained from criticizing because @Deimos is only one person, and he clearly makes decisions within the constraints of his schedule, ability, energy, etc. With the growth of the website, more mods will be added (I kinda want to be one). When that happens I'll feel freer to state my mind in that regard.

    2 votes
    1. [10]
      lepigpen
      Link Parent
      Sure, but those effects occurring now make myself (and maybe others) less likely to use the site now. Wherever the site goes, I fear it's quite clearly become a single demographic of people. It's...

      Sure, but those effects occurring now make myself (and maybe others) less likely to use the site now.

      Wherever the site goes, I fear it's quite clearly become a single demographic of people. It's already happening naturally, but to hasten that through this type of moderation is just guaranteeing this becomes some kind of vacuum/think tank

      1 vote
      1. [9]
        mrbig
        Link Parent
        I looked at the thread. The subject had the potential of getting out of hand very quickly. On Reddit, there's a bunch of mods per-sub watching every comment, 24/7. You can let things roll to a...

        I looked at the thread. The subject had the potential of getting out of hand very quickly. On Reddit, there's a bunch of mods per-sub watching every comment, 24/7. You can let things roll to a greater degree. Tildes have a single mod for the entire website, so he must take a more preemptive approach. When he goes to sleep or don't have access to the internet, there is NO ONE with the power to stop shit from hitting the fan. So he locks stuff up.

        I understand this can be frustrating, but I believe that, right now, there is no better option.

        2 votes
        1. [8]
          lepigpen
          Link Parent
          Explain "out of hand" to me.

          Explain "out of hand" to me.

          1. [7]
            mrbig
            Link Parent
            Fat shaming is an obvious one.

            Fat shaming is an obvious one.

            1 vote
            1. [6]
              lepigpen
              Link Parent
              If someone is blatantly fat shaming they won't be banned and we expect them to be much more mature in another thread? And a fat shaming person's actions cause a thread to be locked which hinders a...

              If someone is blatantly fat shaming they won't be banned and we expect them to be much more mature in another thread?

              And a fat shaming person's actions cause a thread to be locked which hinders a non-fat-shaming conversation being had?

              Also it's sad given the general maturity of Tildes we couldn't avoid feeding the troll on this one. I think that's the real shame. His comments should have stayed at no votes at the bottom of the page if that's how he was behaving.

              1. [5]
                cfabbro
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                The problem with that is tildes is small and the activity reflects that, so users feel they can’t just ignore controversial (but not quite ban-worthy) opinions at present and hope they get...

                The problem with that is tildes is small and the activity reflects that, so users feel they can’t just ignore controversial (but not quite ban-worthy) opinions at present and hope they get buried... because they won’t be. They will stay where they are, and others will likely see them, and so people feel compelled to challenge them. And as a result of that, from a moderation perspective, the only options to prevent potentially unhealthy and unwelcome escalations is to remove every potentially contentious comment (far from ideal), or lock the thread (also not ideal but at least reasonable for now). This will change as more moderation tools (and mods) are added, but were not there yet.

                1 vote
                1. [4]
                  lepigpen
                  Link Parent
                  Looks like we're not "going there" either. Deimos just said they are unlikely to create a sub-thread locking tool because it would just over complicate things. So these problems continue, the...

                  Looks like we're not "going there" either. Deimos just said they are unlikely to create a sub-thread locking tool because it would just over complicate things. So these problems continue, the mindset of this community gets continually narrowed down, and the site resists growth. GG

                  1. [3]
                    cfabbro
                    Link Parent
                    Uh, what? If this is the comment you’re referring to, AFAICT at no point did he say it was overcomplicated and he would never consider adding it as an option. He was just pointing out some of the...

                    Uh, what? If this is the comment you’re referring to, AFAICT at no point did he say it was overcomplicated and he would never consider adding it as an option. He was just pointing out some of the potential problems with the idea... which I also mentioned as well, in case you didn’t notice. Just providing thread lock on its own would not be enough IMO either. It’s potentially an idea worth considering but also has issues that would need to be worked out first.

                    1 vote
                    1. [2]
                      lepigpen
                      Link Parent
                      This is the "over complicated" part: "Yes, it's very possible (pretty easy, even). It doesn't necessarily solve a lot of situations nicely though, since it means that you have to put locks all...

                      This is the "over complicated" part: "Yes, it's very possible (pretty easy, even). It doesn't necessarily solve a lot of situations nicely though, since it means that you have to put locks all over the place to prevent people from just starting up the same thing again if they can find a different "entry point", or even just starting a new top-level thread for it." - Deimos

                      It does complicate things, because if a person can just jump back in, and then needs to be locked again, it's not like Deimos is going to sit there and do so over and over. So the tool makes a small problem an even bigger problem. Making it a less effective tool. So that answers one of my specific questions. And the other question I asked seems clear, threads like that will be locked and they're not valuable to Tildes so if you feel bad about it, too bad.

                      1. cfabbro
                        Link Parent
                        It being complicated and pointing out those potential complications doesn’t necessarily mean “overly” complicated and not worth exploring as an option/idea, and at no point did he say he would...

                        It being complicated and pointing out those potential complications doesn’t necessarily mean “overly” complicated and not worth exploring as an option/idea, and at no point did he say he would never consider implementing such a system.

                        threads like that will be locked and they're not valuable to Tildes so if you feel bad about it, too bad.

                        I mean, that’s kind of the nature of all moderated spaces, isn’t it? You’re generally free to disagree with decisions and voice your concerns, as you did here, but ultimately the call has to be made one way or another at some point. What is “high quality” discussion is up for debate, but in that particular case with that particular submission, I have to agree that it was unlikely to lead to more quality discussion than it would continue to lead to needless and unproductive arguments. A more nuanced moderation ability, like thread locking, would be nice, but I also have to agree that I don’t think it would have really helped in that particular case as for whatever reason on the internet people have really strong (and often toxic) opinions obesity.

                        1 vote