Unsurprisingly, having co-designed and operated similar vessels, James Cameron seems remarkably knowledgeable about the whole affair, with a candidness official sources can't have.
LOL never thought I would learn so much about submarines and material engineering from a film maker. He talks like an engineer with 20+ years of experience.
LOL never thought I would learn so much about submarines and material engineering from a film maker.
He talks like an engineer with 20+ years of experience.
Never underestimate a dedicated rich nerd. He co-designed multiple submersibles and holds the record for the deepest dive ever, going almost 11km down in the Mariana Trench. I kinda think that the...
Never underestimate a dedicated rich nerd. He co-designed multiple submersibles and holds the record for the deepest dive ever, going almost 11km down in the Mariana Trench.
I kinda think that the Titanic movie was just an excuse for him to visit the wreck on someone else's dime.
This is another good summary of the Titan vessel. The Titan apparently routinely lost positional/sensor comms with the surface vessel during previous dives, and when the same happened with this...
The Titan apparently routinely lost positional/sensor comms with the surface vessel during previous dives, and when the same happened with this dive, the surface crew did not think anything of it, which possible delayed call for help. It's mind-boggling that this was not investigated and considered a high-priority issue to be fixed before future dives.
Titan also did not have voice comms because the CEO did not want to be distracted while he was in "flow", which sounds insane!
He didn't name the technology, so everything is fine I suppose. That's sarcasm. But it might be intentional to let the enemy know that they can spot even the smallest subs, so they don't even try...
He didn't name the technology, so everything is fine I suppose. That's sarcasm.
But it might be intentional to let the enemy know that they can spot even the smallest subs, so they don't even try to come near US coast, or as a way of saying "We know what you did last summer"
It sounds like this info came from an official statement from the navy. The military having listening equipment set up in the ocean isn't a secret. I've definitely heard of it at least. The...
It sounds like this info came from an official statement from the navy.
The military having listening equipment set up in the ocean isn't a secret. I've definitely heard of it at least. The specifics of the system would be secret and we got no specifics.
None of these are revealed by the article, apart from maybe processing speed, but everyone knows that anyway. The enemy - the Russians - have a pretty good idea of most of these already, and...
None of these are revealed by the article, apart from maybe processing speed, but everyone knows that anyway.
The enemy - the Russians - have a pretty good idea of most of these already, and certainly have a much closer approximation than this article gives.
Not really. It could easily be that we lucked out and had equipment nearby the site. Knowing we can hear one spot in the ocean isn't news. Knowing how much ocean we cover would be and which areas...
Not really. It could easily be that we lucked out and had equipment nearby the site. Knowing we can hear one spot in the ocean isn't news. Knowing how much ocean we cover would be and which areas are better covered. For an enemy to leverage it, they need to know that information so they can chart courses away from listening posts. But none of that was leaked other than the titanic location, which isn't unusual since there's quite a bit of activity there.
The reason sharing this information is problematic is not in this release, but in the long term effects of it. There may have been other ways through which someone may have discovered locations of...
Knowing how much ocean we cover would be and which areas are better covered.
The reason sharing this information is problematic is not in this release, but in the long term effects of it.
There may have been other ways through which someone may have discovered locations of the hydrophones to a relatively good degree of confidence. Those things most likely don't move around all too often.
Combine that knowledge, with this accident, if they later publish where in the dive they suffered the implosion, you now know the precise location of the sound and the hydrophone.
If you have yourself some remote climate monitoring systems you may know the hydrological conditions that existed during this dive.
Now you have a pretty good and substantial knowledge of what kind of sound can be detected.
Obviously this is not that damaging if there's a hydrophone quite close by, which it might be for them to release this information.
I trust the military isn't going to intentionally give up secrets that are important. They are very aggressive at secret keeping, likely more than necessary. If you're seeing information from a...
I trust the military isn't going to intentionally give up secrets that are important. They are very aggressive at secret keeping, likely more than necessary. If you're seeing information from a direct source, then it's incredibly unlikely to give any adversary new information. While yes, some people/governments might be able to use this information to validate their hypothesis, they are likely well behind the curve of the larger adversaries.
This is a big assumption. Knowing "the range is at least x km, and the depth is at least y m" doesn't tell you much, especially if you already know that. And the Russians already know that. Subs...
if we make assumptions about the hydrophones being located near shore?
This is a big assumption.
Knowing "the range is at least x km, and the depth is at least y m" doesn't tell you much, especially if you already know that. And the Russians already know that.
Subs are a nuclear weapon delivery platform. There has been intense activity to identify where they are and what they're doing. Acoustics is well-established espionage tech and has been refined over 70 years.
This might be because I’m not a native speaker, so bear with me. I read the article twice to try to find what you mean, but to me it reads like the secrets are kept secret. Can you elaborate on...
This might be because I’m not a native speaker, so bear with me.
I read the article twice to try to find what you mean, but to me it reads like the secrets are kept secret. Can you elaborate on why this isn’t caring about OPSEC?
Ah ok, that makes sense, thanks for adding the details. As a suggestion, would it make sense to add it to your top level comment as edit? It will be easier for others to understand.
Ah ok, that makes sense, thanks for adding the details. As a suggestion, would it make sense to add it to your top level comment as edit? It will be easier for others to understand.
Can't find it now but I'm pretty sure I saw a new story here in the UK saying the RAF were sending a plane and a search team a couple of days ago. Is it odd that the US military knew but didn't...
Can't find it now but I'm pretty sure I saw a new story here in the UK saying the RAF were sending a plane and a search team a couple of days ago.
Is it odd that the US military knew but didn't pass it on?
Also, this screenshot of the BBC website this morning makes me feel sick. Spot the difference between 5 rich people and 30 poor people. https://envs.sh/d22.png
Not to mention the huge shipwreck with migrants off the coast of Greece, which happened very recently as well, and has been overshadowed by this event in news outlets
Also, this screenshot of the BBC website this morning makes me feel sick. Spot the difference between 5 rich people and 30 poor people.
Not to mention the huge shipwreck with migrants off the coast of Greece, which happened very recently as well, and has been overshadowed by this event in news outlets
It appears to be a very similar story but the shipwrecks are most likely different ones due to the distance. Even worse considering two separate shipwrecks and mass-deaths of migrants occurred...
It appears to be a very similar story but the shipwrecks are most likely different ones due to the distance.
Even worse considering two separate shipwrecks and mass-deaths of migrants occurred within less than a week from each other.
But you are correct regarding the juxtaposition part. It is absolutely awful.
Edit: Hell, one in two people I've talked to in Greece IRL the past week didn't even agree with the "national mourning" period the placeholder provisional government announced for these migrants... At least in "our" case, it's not driven purely by economic conditions, but also because of racism.
I'm not sure how comparable these are. If it were 5 rich people no one had heard of last week sank on a yacht halfway across the word it wouldn't have got the coverage or interest it did. It...
Also, this screenshot of the BBC website this morning makes me feel sick. Spot the difference between 5 rich people and 30 poor people. https://envs.sh/d22.png
I'm not sure how comparable these are. If it were 5 rich people no one had heard of last week sank on a yacht halfway across the word it wouldn't have got the coverage or interest it did. It likely wouldn't have made more than a footnote on the BBC if not for 3 of them being British citizens.
This is more comparable to events like the boys trapped in the cave in Thailand, or the Chilean mining accident - both of which also took over media in the UK in much the same way even though no one involved was rich or British. It's much more unusual, being trapped in the dark slowly suffocating to death (or waiting to die some other way) is a pretty common fear that most people can relate to the horror of, and what I think is the biggest factor of all - there's the possibility of rescue with the added drama of it being against all odds in a challenging situation.
In the Mediterranean sea alone there have been over 26,000 migrant deaths in the last decade. That number is absolutely horrifying to me, but as an individual occurrence it happens every week. If submersibles containing rich people went missing every week they wouldn't make the news either.
I do think that while there won't be much covering of each vessel sank, the overall statistics are horrifying and maybe there does need more coverage for people to understand the scale of the problem and demand better from our politicians. It doesn't help that there doesn't seem to be any easy solutions.
Off-topic but I guess it's done all the time. I don't remember all the details but the NSA is known for living in the future when it comes to mathematics and encryption. Supposedly (because I...
Is it odd that the US military knew but didn't pass it on?
Off-topic but I guess it's done all the time. I don't remember all the details but the NSA is known for living in the future when it comes to mathematics and encryption. Supposedly (because I trust cryptographers more than me), the DES algorithm was improved by the NSA in 1976 and people wondered for a long time if they weakened it or strengthened it. It was shown way after that date that they improved the algorithm but couldn't say why for security reasons.
Unsurprisingly, having co-designed and operated similar vessels, James Cameron seems remarkably knowledgeable about the whole affair, with a candidness official sources can't have.
LOL never thought I would learn so much about submarines and material engineering from a film maker.
He talks like an engineer with 20+ years of experience.
Never underestimate a dedicated rich nerd. He co-designed multiple submersibles and holds the record for the deepest dive ever, going almost 11km down in the Mariana Trench.
I kinda think that the Titanic movie was just an excuse for him to visit the wreck on someone else's dime.
He’s definitely said in interviews that he made the movie as an excuse to dive to the shipwreck.
Apparently he outright admitted the movie was an excuse to visit the wreck.
At this point, isn't he?
That last 5 seconds where he casually drops "I actually believe they heard it with their ears..." in reference to delamination. JFC.
Yeah that took me off guard too.
Maybe/hopefully it imploded so fast that they weren't able to really register it...?
For real! To be fair, it's been a decade since the South Park song about his hobby.
🎶Jaaaaaames Cameron, explorer of the sea…
This is another good summary of the Titan vessel.
The Titan apparently routinely lost positional/sensor comms with the surface vessel during previous dives, and when the same happened with this dive, the surface crew did not think anything of it, which possible delayed call for help. It's mind-boggling that this was not investigated and considered a high-priority issue to be fixed before future dives.
Titan also did not have voice comms because the CEO did not want to be distracted while he was in "flow", which sounds insane!
Article without paywall: https://archive.ph/2023.06.22-214133/https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12
He didn't name the technology, so everything is fine I suppose. That's sarcasm.
But it might be intentional to let the enemy know that they can spot even the smallest subs, so they don't even try to come near US coast, or as a way of saying "We know what you did last summer"
That was my first thought as well. Although I wouldn't be surprised if USN is always "listening"
Finland also has hydrophones all throught the gulf of Finland :shh:
It sounds like this info came from an official statement from the navy.
The military having listening equipment set up in the ocean isn't a secret. I've definitely heard of it at least. The specifics of the system would be secret and we got no specifics.
Edit: an older system called SOSUS
None of these are revealed by the article, apart from maybe processing speed, but everyone knows that anyway.
The enemy - the Russians - have a pretty good idea of most of these already, and certainly have a much closer approximation than this article gives.
Not depth?
Not range, if we make assumptions about the hydrophones being located near shore?
Not really. It could easily be that we lucked out and had equipment nearby the site. Knowing we can hear one spot in the ocean isn't news. Knowing how much ocean we cover would be and which areas are better covered. For an enemy to leverage it, they need to know that information so they can chart courses away from listening posts. But none of that was leaked other than the titanic location, which isn't unusual since there's quite a bit of activity there.
The reason sharing this information is problematic is not in this release, but in the long term effects of it.
There may have been other ways through which someone may have discovered locations of the hydrophones to a relatively good degree of confidence. Those things most likely don't move around all too often.
Combine that knowledge, with this accident, if they later publish where in the dive they suffered the implosion, you now know the precise location of the sound and the hydrophone.
If you have yourself some remote climate monitoring systems you may know the hydrological conditions that existed during this dive.
Now you have a pretty good and substantial knowledge of what kind of sound can be detected.
Obviously this is not that damaging if there's a hydrophone quite close by, which it might be for them to release this information.
I trust the military isn't going to intentionally give up secrets that are important. They are very aggressive at secret keeping, likely more than necessary. If you're seeing information from a direct source, then it's incredibly unlikely to give any adversary new information. While yes, some people/governments might be able to use this information to validate their hypothesis, they are likely well behind the curve of the larger adversaries.
This is a big assumption.
Knowing "the range is at least x km, and the depth is at least y m" doesn't tell you much, especially if you already know that. And the Russians already know that.
Subs are a nuclear weapon delivery platform. There has been intense activity to identify where they are and what they're doing. Acoustics is well-established espionage tech and has been refined over 70 years.
Isn't there value in knowing how fast they can process all the signals from their system to isolate the event?
This might be because I’m not a native speaker, so bear with me.
I read the article twice to try to find what you mean, but to me it reads like the secrets are kept secret. Can you elaborate on why this isn’t caring about OPSEC?
Ah ok, that makes sense, thanks for adding the details. As a suggestion, would it make sense to add it to your top level comment as edit? It will be easier for others to understand.
Can't find it now but I'm pretty sure I saw a new story here in the UK saying the RAF were sending a plane and a search team a couple of days ago.
Is it odd that the US military knew but didn't pass it on?
Also, this screenshot of the BBC website this morning makes me feel sick. Spot the difference between 5 rich people and 30 poor people. https://envs.sh/d22.png
Not to mention the huge shipwreck with migrants off the coast of Greece, which happened very recently as well, and has been overshadowed by this event in news outlets
I believe that's what they're referring to. Just an awful juxtaposition of what draws people's attention.
It appears to be a very similar story but the shipwrecks are most likely different ones due to the distance.
Even worse considering two separate shipwrecks and mass-deaths of migrants occurred within less than a week from each other.
But you are correct regarding the juxtaposition part. It is absolutely awful.
Edit: Hell, one in two people I've talked to in Greece IRL the past week didn't even agree with the "national mourning" period the
placeholderprovisional government announced for these migrants... At least in "our" case, it's not driven purely by economic conditions, but also because of racism.I'm not sure how comparable these are. If it were 5 rich people no one had heard of last week sank on a yacht halfway across the word it wouldn't have got the coverage or interest it did. It likely wouldn't have made more than a footnote on the BBC if not for 3 of them being British citizens.
This is more comparable to events like the boys trapped in the cave in Thailand, or the Chilean mining accident - both of which also took over media in the UK in much the same way even though no one involved was rich or British. It's much more unusual, being trapped in the dark slowly suffocating to death (or waiting to die some other way) is a pretty common fear that most people can relate to the horror of, and what I think is the biggest factor of all - there's the possibility of rescue with the added drama of it being against all odds in a challenging situation.
In the Mediterranean sea alone there have been over 26,000 migrant deaths in the last decade. That number is absolutely horrifying to me, but as an individual occurrence it happens every week. If submersibles containing rich people went missing every week they wouldn't make the news either.
I do think that while there won't be much covering of each vessel sank, the overall statistics are horrifying and maybe there does need more coverage for people to understand the scale of the problem and demand better from our politicians. It doesn't help that there doesn't seem to be any easy solutions.
Off-topic but I guess it's done all the time. I don't remember all the details but the NSA is known for living in the future when it comes to mathematics and encryption. Supposedly (because I trust cryptographers more than me), the DES algorithm was improved by the NSA in 1976 and people wondered for a long time if they weakened it or strengthened it. It was shown way after that date that they improved the algorithm but couldn't say why for security reasons.