I didn't know what group to post this to. In the UK we have two types of SPSVs (small public service vehicles). There are Hackney Cabs and taxis. A taxi can stand at a taxi rank; they can be...
I didn't know what group to post this to.
In the UK we have two types of SPSVs (small public service vehicles). There are Hackney Cabs and taxis.
A taxi can stand at a taxi rank; they can be hailed from the side of the road; they set a fare using a taxi-meter; they are granted a taxi licence.
A hackney cab minicab is a private hire vehicle. They can't work from taxi stands, they can't be hailed from the side of the road, they must be pre-booked. In most of England they must also be able to set the fare before the journey starts.
Uber is a weird mish-mash of these two. They were mostly private hire but using an app instead of a taximeter. London did try to incorporate Uber into the SPSV mix, but Uber managed to fuck it up by:
not correctly running criminal records checks
not correctly running medical certificates
using its tech to evade law enforcements (I think this is around checking of fares by secret shoppers)
not correctly reporting serious criminal offences committed by drivers
The article mentions only in passing problems with discrimination. There's a problem in the UK with drivers not taking guide dogs. These are not drivers who are allergic to dogs, and the dogs are not "just" assistance dogs but fully trained guide dogs. This isn't just a problem with Uber, but they've had a persistent problem with it.
Small correction, the pre-book only vehicles are minicabs (officially "private hire vehicles"), not Hackney cabs. Hackney cabs are the ones that can be hailed anywhere - also known as "black cabs"...
Small correction, the pre-book only vehicles are minicabs (officially "private hire vehicles"), not Hackney cabs. Hackney cabs are the ones that can be hailed anywhere - also known as "black cabs" in London. Authoritative info from TfL here if anyone's interested!
I personally think that in principle Uber (or any similar service) fits perfectly into this existing model, and it actually works far better than most other world cities they operate in: the app fulfils the exact same function as the phone call pre-booking used to for minicabs, and does a much better job. The drivers are regulated just the same as any other minicab driver, so it's not just some random person's car.
As you say, Uber hasn't been complying with their obligations as a minicab operator - your bullets on how they fucked it up are spot on. Again, this fits exactly into the existing model and it's why their license has been refused: because they've proven that they can't follow the rules. There's nothing inherent about the model that clashes, they're just refusing to play ball because they think cutting corners will make them more money.
I have been very impressed with the black cabs' response to Uber in recent years, which has largely been upping the quality of their service (in my opinion). I'm always blown away when I visit...
I have been very impressed with the black cabs' response to Uber in recent years, which has largely been upping the quality of their service (in my opinion). I'm always blown away when I visit London at how quick, polite, ubiquitous, and reasonable the cabs are. There's even an app you can download these days where you can summon a black cab a la Uber, so I'm a little surprised people even bother with a separate service. The prices were comparable as well last time I visited, but maybe that has changed.
Black cabs are in a really interesting and, in my opinion, quite unfortunate position. They've been tightly regulated for well over a century, and for the majority of that time this absolutely set...
Black cabs are in a really interesting and, in my opinion, quite unfortunate position. They've been tightly regulated for well over a century, and for the majority of that time this absolutely set them apart from taxis in other cities. They were broadly considered the gold standard and they generally took pride in their work, although there was still a practical difficulty in catching unscrupulous behaviour (deliberately extended routes, refusing certain customers, refusing card payments, etc.).
Learning The Knowledge (memorising a detailed map of London and being able to figure out optimal routes between almost any two points) is a difficult, expensive, and genuinely impressive achievement. It also became redundant almost overnight with the advent of GPS. Live traffic info was the final nail in the coffin - nowadays, a human simply can't know as much as a phone about the optimal route.
They had a hard-earned skill that almost guaranteed a lucrative career, and suddenly its value plummeted through no fault of the drivers. I'd sure as hell be pissed off in their position, and it's a lot easier to be pissed off at Uber than at the nebulous concept of technological progress. Uber then goes around flouting a bunch of other rules which muddies the waters further - they're both a legitimate technological competitor and a bad actor, for different reasons.
The black cab companies' response was to try to impose utterly unnecessary extra rules on Uber like mandatory 5 minute waits because of... err... reasons, and then to shut down traffic when that didn't go through.
Eventually they've realised that obstruction wasn't working and improving service was the way to go; prices are still generally higher, but more of that actually goes to the drivers, they pay proper taxes, and so forth. On the other hand, they're still saddled with the cost (both time and financial) of doing The Knowledge, their fares are more tightly regulated, and every car has to be wheelchair accessible (whereas Uber only provides it at the fleet level and lets the app match the customers who need it).
I won't shed a tear for Uber, and I feel for the black cab drivers who trained and invested in good faith, but I honestly think that the app-hailed minicab model is just the more sensible way to go in the 21st century. Kapten are certainly marketing themselves as a more local, more ethical option with the Uber model so it'll be interesting to see if that holds up to scrutiny.
It's a crazy achievement - it literally enlarges part of the brain! For now it's still holding on as a mainstream requirement, and if there's one thing the UK loves it's keeping strange old...
For now it's still holding on as a mainstream requirement, and if there's one thing the UK loves it's keeping strange old traditions alive, so I'd like to think it won't be lost completely even when we are all being shuttled around in automated pods.
At the moment there's still stuff that the knowledge can do that GPS or Maps cannot do, but that's not going to last long. If you're going to an event at a specific time but want to eat somewhere...
At the moment there's still stuff that the knowledge can do that GPS or Maps cannot do, but that's not going to last long. If you're going to an event at a specific time but want to eat somewhere first a cabbie with the knowledge can recommend places that fit your budget and mood. The mapping companies are getting better at this though.
Being a transport nerd, I'm naturally holding out hope for an eventual ~transport subgroup. But I'm not overly optimistic there'd be sufficient demand... :) Until then I've been putting the bulk...
I didn't know what group to post this to.
Being a transport nerd, I'm naturally holding out hope for an eventual ~transport subgroup. But I'm not overly optimistic there'd be sufficient demand... :) Until then I've been putting the bulk of my transport articles in ~misc unless they have an ~enviro, ~finance or ~tech slant.
I didn't know what group to post this to.
In the UK we have two types of SPSVs (small public service vehicles). There are Hackney Cabs and taxis.
A taxi can stand at a taxi rank; they can be hailed from the side of the road; they set a fare using a taxi-meter; they are granted a taxi licence.
A
hackney cabminicab is a private hire vehicle. They can't work from taxi stands, they can't be hailed from the side of the road, they must be pre-booked. In most of England they must also be able to set the fare before the journey starts.Uber is a weird mish-mash of these two. They were mostly private hire but using an app instead of a taximeter. London did try to incorporate Uber into the SPSV mix, but Uber managed to fuck it up by:
The article mentions only in passing problems with discrimination. There's a problem in the UK with drivers not taking guide dogs. These are not drivers who are allergic to dogs, and the dogs are not "just" assistance dogs but fully trained guide dogs. This isn't just a problem with Uber, but they've had a persistent problem with it.
Small correction, the pre-book only vehicles are minicabs (officially "private hire vehicles"), not Hackney cabs. Hackney cabs are the ones that can be hailed anywhere - also known as "black cabs" in London. Authoritative info from TfL here if anyone's interested!
I personally think that in principle Uber (or any similar service) fits perfectly into this existing model, and it actually works far better than most other world cities they operate in: the app fulfils the exact same function as the phone call pre-booking used to for minicabs, and does a much better job. The drivers are regulated just the same as any other minicab driver, so it's not just some random person's car.
As you say, Uber hasn't been complying with their obligations as a minicab operator - your bullets on how they fucked it up are spot on. Again, this fits exactly into the existing model and it's why their license has been refused: because they've proven that they can't follow the rules. There's nothing inherent about the model that clashes, they're just refusing to play ball because they think cutting corners will make them more money.
I have been very impressed with the black cabs' response to Uber in recent years, which has largely been upping the quality of their service (in my opinion). I'm always blown away when I visit London at how quick, polite, ubiquitous, and reasonable the cabs are. There's even an app you can download these days where you can summon a black cab a la Uber, so I'm a little surprised people even bother with a separate service. The prices were comparable as well last time I visited, but maybe that has changed.
Black cabs are in a really interesting and, in my opinion, quite unfortunate position. They've been tightly regulated for well over a century, and for the majority of that time this absolutely set them apart from taxis in other cities. They were broadly considered the gold standard and they generally took pride in their work, although there was still a practical difficulty in catching unscrupulous behaviour (deliberately extended routes, refusing certain customers, refusing card payments, etc.).
Learning The Knowledge (memorising a detailed map of London and being able to figure out optimal routes between almost any two points) is a difficult, expensive, and genuinely impressive achievement. It also became redundant almost overnight with the advent of GPS. Live traffic info was the final nail in the coffin - nowadays, a human simply can't know as much as a phone about the optimal route.
They had a hard-earned skill that almost guaranteed a lucrative career, and suddenly its value plummeted through no fault of the drivers. I'd sure as hell be pissed off in their position, and it's a lot easier to be pissed off at Uber than at the nebulous concept of technological progress. Uber then goes around flouting a bunch of other rules which muddies the waters further - they're both a legitimate technological competitor and a bad actor, for different reasons.
The black cab companies' response was to try to impose utterly unnecessary extra rules on Uber like mandatory 5 minute waits because of... err... reasons, and then to shut down traffic when that didn't go through.
Eventually they've realised that obstruction wasn't working and improving service was the way to go; prices are still generally higher, but more of that actually goes to the drivers, they pay proper taxes, and so forth. On the other hand, they're still saddled with the cost (both time and financial) of doing The Knowledge, their fares are more tightly regulated, and every car has to be wheelchair accessible (whereas Uber only provides it at the fleet level and lets the app match the customers who need it).
I won't shed a tear for Uber, and I feel for the black cab drivers who trained and invested in good faith, but I honestly think that the app-hailed minicab model is just the more sensible way to go in the 21st century. Kapten are certainly marketing themselves as a more local, more ethical option with the Uber model so it'll be interesting to see if that holds up to scrutiny.
Thank you for introducing me to this. GPS is awesome, but it's kinda sad to see such an interesting tradition slowly disappear.
It's a crazy achievement - it literally enlarges part of the brain!
For now it's still holding on as a mainstream requirement, and if there's one thing the UK loves it's keeping strange old traditions alive, so I'd like to think it won't be lost completely even when we are all being shuttled around in automated pods.
At the moment there's still stuff that the knowledge can do that GPS or Maps cannot do, but that's not going to last long. If you're going to an event at a specific time but want to eat somewhere first a cabbie with the knowledge can recommend places that fit your budget and mood. The mapping companies are getting better at this though.
Here's a short clip about it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00t6cbj
There's a longer documentary which is available. Here's a low quality link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFKh_3evC8
And a bit of an article about it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-35667599
Being a transport nerd, I'm naturally holding out hope for an eventual ~transport subgroup. But I'm not overly optimistic there'd be sufficient demand... :) Until then I've been putting the bulk of my transport articles in ~misc unless they have an ~enviro, ~finance or ~tech slant.
I would absolutely enjoy a ~transport group.
Is this something that just* happened, I've moved it to ~news.
*A few hours ago.