13 votes

Tokyo, yeast, and expectations

Japan is understandably a hot travel destination in general, but I've seen it come up here on Tildes several times, with many people sharing their stories. This is and isn't that.

I traveled to Japan (and Korea) over a year ago, and I've been rotating this post in my head nearly the whole time. If you want to skip my word vomit: tl:dr it was kind of mid, there are parts I would return for, but many that are very off-putting (especially as of this moment with Japan's politics).

I'm a millennial, and by most accounts, a weeb. I was first was exposed to anime/manga via Slayers, Sailor Moon, Tenchi Muyo and other early Anime that played occasionally on network television, around the late 1990s, which evolved as it did for most of us with Toonami, Adult Swim, and renting movies like Akira and Ghost in the Shell at Blockbuster. I've been regularly consuming Otaku culture essentially my entire life, and my wife was exactly the same as me, we both read Manga and watch Anime as a regular pass time. I was also completely aware that Otaku culture is generally looked down upon by genpop, probably moreso a decade or more ago till now, but I wasn't under the impression that Manga/Anime was how Japan actually was.This isn't to say we had some idealized view of Japan or Tokyo (where we spent our vacation), we've done a lot of domestic and international travel up to that point, so I believe we had realistic expectations going in of how our vacation would go. To be clear, it's not that those expectations weren't necessarily met, but there's some things that I started to realize I may have overlooked, tidbits of Japanese culture that you will get glimpses of in their media, and specifically, the types of media I related to, the series I found most interesting to me with characters that aligned with my own values, or something like that.

You will hear many testimonials of how great visiting Tokyo can be, and I want to caveat with the single complication that made things unreasonably difficult and why I would exercise caution if you are in the same position, but being perfectly frank, it was only one component: We traveled with myself, my wife, and our 2 year old daughter. To clarify, I do not have a difficult child, in fact by almost all metrics she's extremely well behaved and easy to travel with, if she wasn't I would never have considered a 14+hr flight, so take everything I say that I have a near saint of a toddler, she wasn't the problem at all.

Tokyo is not toddler friendly, Tokyo is toddler hostile, weird things you would overlook or not even think about as adult travelers will consistently cause problems. Tokyo is great for walkability if you are able bodied, it is a far cry from being ADA compliant as we're used to stateside, expect to carry a stroller as I did up stairs many, many times. Over our trip there, you notice things: not a single native Japanese takes a toddler outside, like at all, let's ignore birth rates for a moment, because kids were present, but not a single kid under 3 was anywhere to be seen. Not in restaurants, not at parks, not in malls. The possible sole exception is Odaiba, which is designed to be a family friendly area. This begins to cause friction almost everywhere else though. Kids menus are few and far between, rarely will you find high chairs, and frustratingly: many restaurants will not give you a to go box, that's just not a thing there, so expect to simply waste food or money if you order a main for a toddler (because there is no kids meal) etc. There is also nearly nothing catered to toddlers....basically anywhere, again this is pretty in line with our expectations, but when we went out of our way to find solutions, and they still didn't seem possible (or were inexplicably closed....they will actually CLOSE parks if there is a light drizzle) it begins to wear on you. Similarly shopping! One of the biggest draws of being in Tokyo, will be rather limited, both in things that would fit a 1-4yo and in physical dimensions of stores, which may or may not accommodate you pushing a stroller. The busy tourist areas are also quite challenging to navigate, and especially in places like Shibuya, a lot of the joint restaurant areas will have exceptionally small tables or standing room only, as will most Ramen or Tempura restaurants. "Family restaurant" is a category in Japan because taking a family elsewhere is difficult.

I can handle almost all of this, but it's coupled with, and again, I am a parent, I understand that children can be taxing, but there's a low level of animosity ever present almost anywhere you go, of course there's background radiation of, you're a tourist and not a local, but couple that with now you're being a difficult tourist, and you can start to tell people do not want you there. This isn't to say we didn't have good experiences, many native Japanese were very accommodating to us, helped us out, were happy to see a cute kid etc. I don't want to paint it as the experience was entirely negative, it wasn't, but it was SO MUCH WORSE than literally anywhere else I have traveled re: having a toddler or child with you, and it's not really conveyed because well, most people traveling to Tokyo do not have kids in tow (and I have heard that for example Osaka and other cities are better about this, so I don't want to paint a broad brush.) There were also plenty of tourists traveling with kids, and even when we didn't share a language, we exchanged knowing glances of how tired of the whole situation we were.

Also the food is seriously overrated, give me hate if you want, but the US has better food, especially LA/NYC. You can get better sushi, cheaper, in LA than Tokyo. It's the truth. The hamburg steak at Tsubame Kitchen in Shinogawa was an exception, that was delicious.

There's a manga I love: Moyashimon, it's about a college student who can see microbes (including the eponymous Yeast), that's entirely unimportant to what I want to talk about. The characters are extremely relatable, I believe I was also in university when I first read it, and many parts resonated with me, and I found the morals of the characters fairly normal. Almost all of these characters are outcasts or pariahs by Japanese standards. Conformity is still very much the norm in Japan, and especially the majority of Tokyo outside the kind of touristy (or counterculture) areas like Shibuya, Akihabara, Kabukicho etc. As we were heavily jetlagged, the majority of our days would start around 5am, the sea of salarymen is absolutely nuts. Thousands of workers in suits, every day, bright and early, and returning at rush hour. Moyashimon deals a lot with the difficulties the characters will face when they leave college and are forced to conform, they will have to be clean shaven, they must stop dying their hair, they must conform to the gender presentation they were assigned at birth. The story, and many other media in the same vein from similar authors, is critical of the culture of conformity. The current Japan, in current year, is still xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic. In relating to these media, whether it's moyashimon, or the works of Nagata Kabi, or even something like HoriMiya (which tragically kills almost all the social commentary of the original work in both the redraw manga as well as the anime), I was relating to being critical of Japan's culture, of being critical of those things.

I don't really know where else to go with this, sorry for the word vomit. I had thought that I knew what to expect when traveling to Japan, I did my research, I knew how to not be rude, not to be intrusive, how to generally be my version of a "good tourist", and it wasn't that my expectations were wrong, I simply found out I liked Tokyo less than I thought I would.

Some serious positives though: meeting my friends who live in Tokyo was great, and we absolutely had a blast, I'd have not had half as much fun if I didn't have people who lived there that knew the places to go and what to see. The climbing gyms and bouldering scene is WORLD CLASS. B pump Ogikubo is famous for a reason, and the national training center in Odaiba was also a highlight.

Maybe this will give some added balance, I'm not sure. This is just the experience I had, there were highlights and lowlights, but overall, I just did not jive with Tokyo in particular, and I would like other people to at least consider that they might not, too.

6 comments

  1. picketship
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    Your experience is your experience, and I'm really sorry you had a shit time. I've known three close friends with toddlers to go to Tokyo/Kansai and the only thing in common they had with your...

    Your experience is your experience, and I'm really sorry you had a shit time.

    I've known three close friends with toddlers to go to Tokyo/Kansai and the only thing in common they had with your experience is the stairs. All three took prams, and the accessibility of Japanese metropolitan infrastructure is poor.

    The only common denominators I can think of between the three very different families is they were pretty well travelled pre-kids, and one had travelled with a toddler before.

    Any way you cut it, it sucks that you had a bad time. But to my reading you've made some unilateral statements here (like Tokyo being 'toddler hostile') like they're objective facts. All three families stated that people were very friendly to their kids, that local parents helped them out with supplies, and even tantrum relief by playing little games with the kids or just giving 'the nod' of 'been there'.

    Also the food is seriously overrated, give me hate if you want, but the US has better food, especially LA/NYC. You can get better sushi, cheaper, in LA than Tokyo. It's the truth.

    I'm not trying to 'give you hate': with the state of the yen, the cost thing is provably not true, unless you solely went to Michelin-starred restaurants. Having been to Tokyo and LA, my experience is LA sushi is fine for American food, but not great. I think you'd really struggle to find people who agree with you, but people who are travelling for food only are few and far between.

    As far as the food being 'seriously overrated' and 'the US has better food', these are subjective judgements based on your one trip, not 'the truth'. The food being most people's highlight when they talk about travel to Japan indicates that maybe it didn't suit your palate, but that's a subjective thing, not a giant lie that Big Japan is trying to pull on the world.

    It sounds like a big thing you had were the expectations you had from being such a big fan of anime and manga, and coming up against the reality of real life as an outsider in Japan. I think the LDP sucks and Japanese politics is in a dire place, but making pronouncements about Japan being xenophobic, homophobic, and transphobic based on your trip and the comics and cartoons you watch is a very broad brush to be painting with.

    A gay couple I'm friends with goes to Japan every year because it's so accepting and they like life there so much. A trans colleague of mine goes to Japan each winter to snowboard because they feel it's one of the few safe destinations for them globally at the moment. I know lots of queer people who go to Japan regularly and have a great time. If your point is that Japan has a lot of work to do to mainstream LGBTQIA+ inclusion domestically, yeah, definitely, so do most countries. But in a thread about travel, it sounds like you're talking about discrimination against tourists in minority groups that are in danger in much of the world, and that just doesn't align with what I've heard from my friends and family who identify that way and have been multiple times.

    I'm not trying to paint Japan as some perfect utopia, and obviously the recent success of anti-foreigner and overtoursism candidates is a very strong point in your xenophobia column. Most of the xenophobia is directed at mainland Chinese tour groups and foreign workers on temporary visas. I'm not saying that's good, as it's disgusting, but I'm just really surprised you encountered this in Tokyo.

    The only active anti-tourism sentiment I've seen is in Kyoto, which I understand as living there would be a nightmare. I got turned away from one bar for being obviously not-Japanese, and I later learned it was an extremely upscale place where politicians go to fool around with hostesses and mistresses, so I put that down less to xenophobia and more not wanting tourists with camera phones in there accidentally causing sex scandals in their social media posts.

    I've seen some anti-American sentiment in Japan because of Trump, but I'm not American. A good friend of mine who looks like Superman and is as all-American looking as they come went recently, and learned how to say 'I don't like Trump' (or, at bars, 'fuck Trump!') which seemed to make everyone laugh. No one proactively asked him, he just wanted to make it clear. Mostly, he said they were just impressed that he'd come so far and asked if he was a cowboy because he was born in a famously rural state.

    So again, I am really sorry you had a shit trip. And I am honestly not trying to 'both sides' this - I believe what you say, I just don't think it's as simple as 'Japan isn't a good place to go with kids', 'Japan is hostile to people who are different', and 'Japanese food isn't that good, don't believe the lies'.

    It's possible to do all your research and have a really disappointing experience - it happens to Japanese people all the time. But I do feel for you, I had a very similar experience of disappointment to yours when I went to America. I'd done all my research, I had some great places I wanted to go, but I just hated it. It was right after Trump got elected the first time and I felt like I was in danger the entire time, even in 'safe' parts of major metro areas that were supposedly liberal. I saw more guns than I'd ever seen at my life just arriving at customs, and when I went to the southwest I was scared of shootings. I saw racist lawn signs, the 'trans debate' ("Should they exist?" in dressed-up terms) was just beginning, I hated the quality of the food compared to other places I'd been, I hated the non-existant ways to get around.

    I think what I'm trying to say is it's possible to get really excited about going somewhere and just bounce off it. I didn't like America, and not many people from my country are going there anymore, but plenty of people loved it and express sadness that they don't feel safe travelling there any longer.

    Japan wasn't for you, and that's just part of life. The only thing I'm trying to push back on is where you're making really declarative pronouncements about Japanese travel based on one trip. Again, it sucks that it wasn't for you, there are memes about how difficult it is to navigate a western stroller around Japanese stations and 'Japn toddler leg gains', but it doesn't mean the place sucks because you had a bad time and it didn't match your manga.

    The reason I'm posting something that is trying to say 'I'm really sorry that was your experience, but it's not universal' is that we have a bunch of threads in ~travel about Japan, and lots of people have young kids. Having known people who've travelled there with babies, toddlers, and young mobile kids, they've stated it's child-friendly, and I really don't want people thinking the whole country is off limits if they have a young family based off one (admittedly, very disappointing) time they read about.

    5 votes
  2. [2]
    JCPhoenix
    Link
    Appreciate the review of sorts. I'll be traveling to Japan in a couple months for the first time. Though I'll be the "child," since I'll be going with my parents. Hopefully no need to put me in a...

    Appreciate the review of sorts. I'll be traveling to Japan in a couple months for the first time. Though I'll be the "child," since I'll be going with my parents. Hopefully no need to put me in a stroller or high chair!

    many restaurants will not give you a to go box, that's just not a thing there, so expect to simply waste food or money if you order a main for a toddler (because there is no kids meal) etc.

    I guess I'm a little confused why you would order a separate meal for a toddler? Why not just feed them from your own plate/meal? Though I don't have kids, so maybe it's normal to get kids their own meal. Regardless, I could see how that and then the lack of ADA/stroller-friendlier spaces would be annoying to a parent. Especially on travel to a foreign country where it can be a little more stressful than usual.

    4 votes
    1. picketship
      Link Parent
      The 'no to go box' thing is a bug bear that's so infamous I'm pretty sure the /r/JapanTravel FAQ had it in there for a while. It is really annoying when you have food left over, but if I remember...

      The 'no to go box' thing is a bug bear that's so infamous I'm pretty sure the /r/JapanTravel FAQ had it in there for a while.

      It is really annoying when you have food left over, but if I remember right, Japanese food standards (especially Tokyo Metropolitan Gov. ones) put the legal liability for any food poisoning on the restaurant if they bag up your food and you get sick. Because of... Japanese culture, instead of explaining this, the most common response is 'I'm sorry, we don't have any containers'.

      I have heard one poor waitress saying 'we don't do that' to an irate American couple at a pizza place in Harajuku, so I stepped in to help out. They were still pissed and visibly angry at a Japanese teen girl at her part time job, even after I explained the law in English. So normally I'd be with them on their crusade to take the slices home, but fuck people who are rude to wait staff, especially when they're doing their best in a foreign language.

      2 votes
  3. [2]
    caliper
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    Japan is really high on my family’s travel wishlist, so this was an interesting read. My kids are a bit older and for some reason have started to refuse sitting in a stroller at ages 13 and 17, go...

    Japan is really high on my family’s travel wishlist, so this was an interesting read. My kids are a bit older and for some reason have started to refuse sitting in a stroller at ages 13 and 17, go figure.

    What I’m curious about is why only visit Tokyo? For me, the countryside is way more appealing and I think I could only manage a maximum of a week of Tokyo madness. I kind of already expected Tokyo to be a frantic place, maybe not a place to enjoy with a toddler.

    2 votes
    1. 286437714
      Link Parent
      I spend a few weeks at a time in Tokyo in every year, but: Shibuya, Akihabara, Kabukicho (the places OP mentioned) are some of the few legitimately frantic places in an otherwise very peaceful...

      I spend a few weeks at a time in Tokyo in every year, but:

      • Shibuya, Akihabara, Kabukicho (the places OP mentioned) are some of the few legitimately frantic places in an otherwise very peaceful city. My first time I was expecting Blade Runner, I was amazed how quiet most of the city centers actually were.

      • It's not my first trip. I'm not an anime guy so my expectations of Japan were 'I hope this country is nice', and when it was, I kept going back.

      • I know what I like and where I enjoy staying in Tokyo. I see plenty of families with little kids travelling in my favourite suburb to stay, from all around the world, and they seem to be having a nice time.

      After about a week in Tokyo I start getting itchy feet and get a train to somewhere rural. I love Tokyo so much I actually haven't explored the truly rural prefectures as much as I'd like to. When I'm out in the sticks I miss the city and come back

      I find the choices of the OP strange, but I'm not a parent. I just enjoy dishing out fist bumps and big goofy smiles to kids in Japan, and an adult being silly seems to be the universal language for giggles, whether they're from Japan or visiting :)

      Let me know if you'd like any tips or my draft one-week itinerary. I initially wrote it for an American couple so it's pretty action-packed as they didn't get much holidays, but I think it's still a good framework for balancing metro, rural, fun, and chilling.

  4. Deely
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    Never been in Japan but really enjoyed reading this post. Really interesting and showing Japan from different perspective at least for me.

    Never been in Japan but really enjoyed reading this post. Really interesting and showing Japan from different perspective at least for me.

    1 vote