Pretty lame excuse. Its 2024, no one cares if you gender-swap a character. Just do it and own it. "We thought we could explore another side to that character's potential." Boom, done. I mean, I...
Pretty lame excuse. Its 2024, no one cares if you gender-swap a character. Just do it and own it. "We thought we could explore another side to that character's potential." Boom, done.
I mean, I don't really care that much, but I think most comic book fans would say Batman has the best rogues gallery, second only to Spider-man, MAYBE.
I'm sure some very loud people care, and a lot of loud people care that those other people care... but by and large I'd bet my lunch that most people do, in fact, not care.
I'm sure some very loud people care, and a lot of loud people care that those other people care... but by and large I'd bet my lunch that most people do, in fact, not care.
1 2 These are more recent because they're talking about the kids TV show, but I can only dig so hard. It's milder than other criticisms of characters but it's absolutely there in the comments. Ugh...
These are more recent because they're talking about the kids TV show, but I can only dig so hard. It's milder than other criticisms of characters but it's absolutely there in the comments.
No really nobody cares if it's actually done well. It's when you have a steaming heap of a script and then call people bigots for not liking it is when you get people incensed. The audience...
No really nobody cares if it's actually done well.
It's when you have a steaming heap of a script and then call people bigots for not liking it is when you get people incensed.
The audience response between Rings of Power and House of the Dragon is vastly different.
And yeah, I'm talking in general on purpose. There will always be some insane person complaining, but I'm not talking about those individuals.
Yeah. Gender swaps can be a red flag for lazy writing, mostly because a lot of lousy writing has been done assuming that gender swapping would be enough to carry the product, and it usually isn't....
Yeah. Gender swaps can be a red flag for lazy writing, mostly because a lot of lousy writing has been done assuming that gender swapping would be enough to carry the product, and it usually isn't.
As always, there's the question of "why not just make someone new?" if you wanted another female villain. I get that's arguably harder in the "redoing the same plots for decades at a time" comic book world, but would probably be met with a lot more excitement for the same reason.
Holy manufactured drama Batman! This EP or author or (likely) both are trolling for buzz. Calling Batman's rouge's gallery weak is just lazy clickbait. His villains are held up constantly as some...
Holy manufactured drama Batman! This EP or author or (likely) both are trolling for buzz. Calling Batman's rouge's gallery weak is just lazy clickbait. His villains are held up constantly as some of the most interesting and best in all of comics.
I don't care about the gender flip. If I HAD to weigh in, I went "huh, that might be an interesting angle... let's see what's done with it." That's about it. I'm much more interested in if it stays smart - or gets smarter. Rounding out the season by focusing on Dent's arc... Seemed okay. Two Face has never been a favorite of mine. I bet it was hard to do in so few episodes, but I commend taking the fractured psyche of him slowly and with interest and care. That was well done.
I enjoyed it well enough. If anything I'd ask them to take even bigger risks... IF they do it well. IMO there are two limbs this show could die on:
Being too timid (read: precious) with the source material such that it's too much retreading the same ground as other versions.
Lacking depth. These stories have to be good. Really good. Plot-induced stupidity- even for exposition should be avoided at all costs. There were too many instances where Gordon made me eyeroll, and that really took me out of it.
I'll give it a really harsh 8/10. Probably deserves an 8.5, but I, like many other Batfans do not like dumb Batman stories, and the bar is pretty high on this property.
Bruce Timm was actually one of the leads behind Batman TAS, the show that invented Harley Quinn (and subsequently her entire relationship with Poison Ivy) and gave Mr. Freeze a proper backstory....
Holy manufactured drama Batman! This EP or author or (likely) both are trolling for buzz. Calling Batman's rouge's gallery weak is just lazy clickbait. His villains are held up constantly as some of the most interesting and best in all of comics.
Bruce Timm was actually one of the leads behind Batman TAS, the show that invented Harley Quinn (and subsequently her entire relationship with Poison Ivy) and gave Mr. Freeze a proper backstory. That show (and the rest of the DCAU that he worked on) elevated so many women in the DC universe as well.
It is pretty odd he thinks Batman's rogues gallery is weak when he's been part of the team that has made the most significant additions and changes to the rogues gallery for the character. I wonder if what he meant was "a lack of good female villains". One thing I realized playing the Arkham games recently was that so, so, so many of the villains are dudes and many of the women are more anti-hero types.
Yeah, the quote in the title seems to be taken out of context, with a poor lack of specificity from Timm, because he immediately continued into specifying female villains: Which as you say, is...
Yeah, the quote in the title seems to be taken out of context, with a poor lack of specificity from Timm, because he immediately continued into specifying female villains:
"You’ve got Catwoman, you’ve got Poison Ivy, you’ve got Harley Quinn. But it would be really good to have more female villains. And off the top of my head, I said… 'What if we gender-flip The Penguin?'"
Which as you say, is actually kinda true. A lot of the female villains fall into the femme fatale / anti-hero archetypes. Inventing a new villain from whole cloth is difficult precisely because Batman has such a robust rogues gallery to work with. So the obvious answer indeed is - why not genderswap one of the already well-known and compelling villains?
The Penguin, I’d argue, isn’t quite “compelling”. The few times I have found them compelling, it was in storylines reliant on the Penguin being male due to the story being about the relationship the Penguin has with the patriarchy, toxic male entitlement, and whatnot… but hey, that’s also what makes them a safe choice to gender swap. In fact, their origin as “outcast who is upset they weren’t allowed into high society” could easily be made quite compelling by facing sexism or some such.
If you're going to gender swap a Batman villain, I would rather a Riddler or Freeze. Especially Freeze... instead of pining after a woman, Freeze is the woman so affected.
If you're going to gender swap a Batman villain, I would rather a Riddler or Freeze. Especially Freeze... instead of pining after a woman, Freeze is the woman so affected.
I mean, I'd also be absolutely here for a lesbian take on Freeze. But the character's name does have "Mister" in it, so I can see why it wouldn't be the first choice for a gender-bend.
I mean, I'd also be absolutely here for a lesbian take on Freeze. But the character's name does have "Mister" in it, so I can see why it wouldn't be the first choice for a gender-bend.
I wouldn't mind simply "Freeze," for either version. It's not as important to the overall flow of his name as, say, Mister Fantastic, or Mister Sinister (both Marvel examples, admittedly.)
I wouldn't mind simply "Freeze," for either version. It's not as important to the overall flow of his name as, say, Mister Fantastic, or Mister Sinister (both Marvel examples, admittedly.)
What’s more interesting, a Victoria Fries who flash freezes every shitty guy who makes a pass at her, or one who preserves her true love until it’s socially acceptable? Maybe it’s the same person?
What’s more interesting, a Victoria Fries who flash freezes every shitty guy who makes a pass at her, or one who preserves her true love until it’s socially acceptable? Maybe it’s the same person?
A lot of the new wave of Gotham villains are newer or more tied to modern themes, so I could see how they could be a bit of a stretch for a noir piece. That said, I think they did a good job with...
A lot of the new wave of Gotham villains are newer or more tied to modern themes, so I could see how they could be a bit of a stretch for a noir piece. That said, I think they did a good job with adapting the Penguin as a Mama Cobblepot sort of character, but phoning it in on Oswalda as a name is questionable.
Pretty lame excuse. Its 2024, no one cares if you gender-swap a character. Just do it and own it. "We thought we could explore another side to that character's potential." Boom, done.
I mean, I don't really care that much, but I think most comic book fans would say Batman has the best rogues gallery, second only to Spider-man, MAYBE.
I love your optimism! Sadly, very much not correct.
I'm sure some very loud people care, and a lot of loud people care that those other people care... but by and large I'd bet my lunch that most people do, in fact, not care.
I don't care.
Jeeze man I know these discussions can be heated but you don't have to come in here guns blazing like that.
Nobody cared when Spiderman gender flipped doc Octavius. Actually the new character was even cooler than the old one.
1
2
These are more recent because they're talking about the kids TV show, but I can only dig so hard. It's milder than other criticisms of characters but it's absolutely there in the comments.
Ugh I looked at KIA and I hate my eyeballs.
No really nobody cares if it's actually done well.
It's when you have a steaming heap of a script and then call people bigots for not liking it is when you get people incensed.
The audience response between Rings of Power and House of the Dragon is vastly different.
And yeah, I'm talking in general on purpose. There will always be some insane person complaining, but I'm not talking about those individuals.
Yeah. Gender swaps can be a red flag for lazy writing, mostly because a lot of lousy writing has been done assuming that gender swapping would be enough to carry the product, and it usually isn't.
As always, there's the question of "why not just make someone new?" if you wanted another female villain. I get that's arguably harder in the "redoing the same plots for decades at a time" comic book world, but would probably be met with a lot more excitement for the same reason.
Holy manufactured drama Batman! This EP or author or (likely) both are trolling for buzz. Calling Batman's rouge's gallery weak is just lazy clickbait. His villains are held up constantly as some of the most interesting and best in all of comics.
I don't care about the gender flip. If I HAD to weigh in, I went "huh, that might be an interesting angle... let's see what's done with it." That's about it. I'm much more interested in if it stays smart - or gets smarter. Rounding out the season by focusing on Dent's arc... Seemed okay. Two Face has never been a favorite of mine. I bet it was hard to do in so few episodes, but I commend taking the fractured psyche of him slowly and with interest and care. That was well done.
I enjoyed it well enough. If anything I'd ask them to take even bigger risks... IF they do it well. IMO there are two limbs this show could die on:
Being too timid (read: precious) with the source material such that it's too much retreading the same ground as other versions.
Lacking depth. These stories have to be good. Really good. Plot-induced stupidity- even for exposition should be avoided at all costs. There were too many instances where Gordon made me eyeroll, and that really took me out of it.
I'll give it a really harsh 8/10. Probably deserves an 8.5, but I, like many other Batfans do not like dumb Batman stories, and the bar is pretty high on this property.
Bruce Timm was actually one of the leads behind Batman TAS, the show that invented Harley Quinn (and subsequently her entire relationship with Poison Ivy) and gave Mr. Freeze a proper backstory. That show (and the rest of the DCAU that he worked on) elevated so many women in the DC universe as well.
It is pretty odd he thinks Batman's rogues gallery is weak when he's been part of the team that has made the most significant additions and changes to the rogues gallery for the character. I wonder if what he meant was "a lack of good female villains". One thing I realized playing the Arkham games recently was that so, so, so many of the villains are dudes and many of the women are more anti-hero types.
Yeah, the quote in the title seems to be taken out of context, with a poor lack of specificity from Timm, because he immediately continued into specifying female villains:
Which as you say, is actually kinda true. A lot of the female villains fall into the femme fatale / anti-hero archetypes. Inventing a new villain from whole cloth is difficult precisely because Batman has such a robust rogues gallery to work with. So the obvious answer indeed is - why not genderswap one of the already well-known and compelling villains?
The Penguin, I’d argue, isn’t quite “compelling”. The few times I have found them compelling, it was in storylines reliant on the Penguin being male due to the story being about the relationship the Penguin has with the patriarchy, toxic male entitlement, and whatnot… but hey, that’s also what makes them a safe choice to gender swap. In fact, their origin as “outcast who is upset they weren’t allowed into high society” could easily be made quite compelling by facing sexism or some such.
If you're going to gender swap a Batman villain, I would rather a Riddler or Freeze. Especially Freeze... instead of pining after a woman, Freeze is the woman so affected.
I mean, I'd also be absolutely here for a lesbian take on Freeze. But the character's name does have "Mister" in it, so I can see why it wouldn't be the first choice for a gender-bend.
I wouldn't mind simply "Freeze," for either version. It's not as important to the overall flow of his name as, say, Mister Fantastic, or Mister Sinister (both Marvel examples, admittedly.)
What’s more interesting, a Victoria Fries who flash freezes every shitty guy who makes a pass at her, or one who preserves her true love until it’s socially acceptable? Maybe it’s the same person?
Same person for sure
Have you seen Gotham? That had a good penguin in it. Can't think of any other.
A lot of the new wave of Gotham villains are newer or more tied to modern themes, so I could see how they could be a bit of a stretch for a noir piece. That said, I think they did a good job with adapting the Penguin as a Mama Cobblepot sort of character, but phoning it in on Oswalda as a name is questionable.