Invincible Season 4 finale discussion
Finale of season 4 spoilers here. You have been warned that people will discuss spoilers here. Don't blame me if you are spoiled of things that happen all the way to the end of season 4, which premiered today.
Anybody else watch the Season 4 Finale and just blown away by how it ended? I was NOT expecting a full PTSD Mark episode to end with him agreeing to let Thragg use the planet as a breeding planet. Its such a smart, awful way to have him make a morally compromised decision and come to terms with Thragg. Also the mid credits scene of Allan being told to use the Scourge virus! Amazing television and i can't wait to see what they do next.
Edit: thank you to whomever added the tags for me. I am usually just a lurker and appreciate someone flagging this post appropriately! I was too excited to get my post up and see what people had to say!
I'm loving this series. I read the entire universe after S01 and the new bits they've given us have been fantastic.
I hope the next season comes out soon. There's some wild shit coming along with some pretty big changes. I really hope we get the Battle Beast fight, though.
I did enjoy the season and the ending cliffhangers (Mark and Thragg's deal and Allen getting the scourge virus), but I was talking with a buddy of mine who lost interest while watching season 2 and they made some good points.
Season 1 was some peak television, especially everything with Nolan, but starting in season 2 they keep on faking out character deaths or having characters come back to life through various means. The show wants to be very serious and have impactful character deaths like Rex last season of Thaddeus last episode, but they'll also show characters get disemboweled or get their brains crushed and they somehow are able to healed from that. But Conquest really did stay dead the second time after he was choked? Even though they hold their breath in space for long periods of time? And some of the human characters like Donald or Mark's friend's boyfriend (I think his name's Rick?) get to come back with cyborg bodies if the plot permits. At this point it's a crapshoot if a character really died or not until it's followed up in the next episode. This issue did make the Conquest fakeout post credits scene really effective as a joke, however.
Another issue is that season 2 kicks off with multiverse stuff, then either season 2 or 3 has time travel too, which are a very big things to introduce into a series! That kinda stuff also really messes with stakes and the impact of character deaths. The MCU waited a good long while to go that route, but Invincible did it really early.
Overall season 1 is very tight and well made, but later seasons didn't really live up to that, bringing in other elements that, while they're tropes of the superhero genre, really cheapens it. The buddy felt they were pitched a show that was different than what we ended up getting after season 1.
I started thinking this way for a bit, but then I started accepting that it's a comic book and lots of things won't make sense. I guess you could say that for choking, it's more about cutting off blood flow to the brain than cutting off air. That's why you can choke someone unconscious in a matter of seconds even if they can hold their breath for minutes. There's a ton of complaints I could make about consistency of rules in this universe, but I'm enjoying the show overall so I'm setting those thoughts aside. Season 1 was great. Seasons 2 and 3 were noticeably worse for me, but I really enjoyed Season 4.
There's no internal consistency inside the show because it's about magic creatures and magic is illogical. Sometimes I can turn off my brain and allow this, but this realization sits in the back there, like pride, constantly fuckin' with me.
So I'm going to do an indulgent mini rant about things that pop into my head whenever I watch these superhero shows.
Here are just a few things that don't make sense (most are tropes from other superhero things but these have always bugged me). I think some of these types of things are mocked in The Boys but I haven't seen that for a while:
This was a reason I liked the first Ironman movie. It was still kind of about magic, but it was wrapped in tech like "Fusion Reactors" and "nanobots" and "thrusters". And even Spiderman makes a little sense. He can't just float around, he can jump and stick to things. His strength isn't realistic, but at least he isn't a god like Superman is.
Just on this point, Mark was likely cutting off the blood flow to the brain, rather than just stopping him breathing - I had the same thought as you initially.
That's true, but I think the main issue I had while watching is that a few minutes of missing blood flow to the brain seems like a very mild and mundane injury compared to the type of things we've seen other characters survive. Angstrom was somehow conscious enough to make a portal and ask doctors to heal him with his face caved in, Mark was able to have his organs put in place and get nursed to health after being disemboweled, and Conquest himself had his face caved in and was in that state in a body bad for some amount of time before Cecil tried to revive him. It wouldn't have been too hard to believe Conquest could sleep off a little cut off blood flow or a lack of oxygen, even without someone helping him.
Considering the other fake out deaths, it wouldn't have been too surprising if after the Graysons left the planet, a deus ex machina like some wandering alien found Conquest's corpse, didn't know he was a bad guy, and tried to heal him. Or maybe some alien fungus fused with his body while he was in his grave and brought him back as a zombie. When they showed the post credits scene of his grave, it was a very real possibility they were going to say he survived again, and it wouldn't have been the craziest character revival they've done.
The result of all of this is that I can't really "accept" that a character is actually dead in Invincible until several characters give monologues that act like they're still dead and it's been a few episodes, which makes the in-the-moment death scenes a lot less impactful.
I dont remember if this is a comic vs tv thing, but I recall it being the case of like perfect timing.
Viltrimites need to breathe, but can hold their breath for insanely long times. Conquest went into the atmosphere and exhaled right before he got choked. So even though he uses oxygen extremely efficiently, it didn't matter when he has zero air in his lungs.
Heavy implications.
I have not read the comics. But I read someone said we are about halfway through the comic run.
I feel like this will lead to incredibly difficult tensions when children start being born half viltrimite. Raised half human, they will likely have their own moral quandaries with parent authoritarianism vs. human desire to rebel, favor altruism, and seek justice.
If time will be a huge factor moving forward, there's no telling how these last 37 viltrimites reevaluate their desires for conquest (no pun intended).
Can't wait for Thragg to battle Satan
Well, if you recall Mark didn't begin exhibit his powers until he was about 17, so there's every bit the chance that there's a decade and a half of time to figure out something to do. The reason Oliver got his powers so quickly is because he's half Thraxan, and they live about a year.
Edit to Add: By that I mean that there's 17 years, potentially, for those parents to develop different attitudes, and those kids to rebel against their parents.
I haven't read the comics either and have intentionally avoided doing so to keep the show fresh for myself.
We are only halfway! That's wild to me as so much has happened and as you said, there are HEAVY implications.
I doubt that the viltrimites will be able to keep to their deal of keeping quiet and slowly rebuilding their population. It only takes 1 to mess up and show their strength for the whole plot to be exposed. Also how does Cecil seemingly "know" everything, including wherever omniman is, but not know a bunch of viltrimites have started to try to blend in on the planet? More rambling thoughts the day after for sure
I think there's a certain nebulousness to the images of the viltrimites blending in. To me, it came across like a flash forward of mark processing Thragg's offer.
I also think it was intentionally forecasted like that to lead up to Mark's answer - the tension that builds as we, the viewer, think the viltrimites are already blending in - suggests that it doesn't matter what Mark says, his back is against the wall. I think it cleverly underscores how Thragg ambushes Mark with this ultimatum "you have no choices to make, but yet you still must make one." It kind of forces mark to give permission anyway, and so the viltrimites being on the planet already or just being a fearful, PTSD image is kind of irrelevant - the answer will have to be the same, anyway.
It seems like Cecil and everyone else requires ship scanning in order to know who is entering the solar system. It could be Cecil doesn't know about Thragg and Co. because they all possibly flew in without a vessel. I could be wrong though.
Still excited!
Cecil detected Alan approaching the earth without a ship, back in season one.
I'm sure he knows, but provoking them would be the end of human civilization. He won't act before he has a plan to win
He also seemed proportionally freaked out to hear Nolan and Mark didn't win but basically kick the hornets nest - again, I feel the nebulousness is key to the tension. And it is delicious
I have a question about the ending, related to the scourge virus that the recording of Thaedus revealed to Allen.
When he said that it would wipe out all Viltrimites and similar beings, are the similar beings Mark and Oliver, or is it all humans?
I'm assuming that it must mean all humans, otherwise the use of the scourge virus is kind of a no brainer.
I think the implication at the end was to include humans as "beings of similar biological makeup". So yes, it will wipe out the Viltrimites, Mark, Oliver, and all the humans. Pretty extreme virus, but Thaedus did say it was the last resort, extreme option.
This was a strong season and a stronger finale. I read that we're only about halfway, so I'm curious where the story goes from here. If I didn't know better, I would think the next season is the last.
Like most I didn't expect how it ended, but it makes a lot of sense. It's a true comprise. Neither side likes this, but it's the most peaceful for now. Obviously there's other threads to wrap up. But if we still have 3-4 seasons, then I wonder if we'll get a time jump.
Either way, this was almost as good as the season 1 finale. I feel like a lot of the buildup came to fruition this season.
I’m glad to see positive reactions here. Elsewhere people were upset the last episode didn’t end on a brawl. I think society has gotten very used to final episodes being a fight. I remember even Game of Thrones moving away from that concept.