So for those keeping track at home, Discovery is bumped up to underrated gem that needed time to grow, Picard is now the wasted potential offering and new disappointment to the franchise, and...
So for those keeping track at home, Discovery is bumped up to underrated gem that needed time to grow, Picard is now the wasted potential offering and new disappointment to the franchise, and Strange New Worlds is the new flagship of our hopes and dreams, but ready to disappoint us the second the pilot comes out. Orville stays about the same.
No no! The pilot will be amazing — it’s everything after, especially the ending, that will be totally rushed and poorly written :) They seem to have this down to a science. ‘Temba, his interest...
No no! The pilot will be amazing — it’s everything after, especially the ending, that will be totally rushed and poorly written :)
Aaaand it's yet another star trek set in the past. Hard pass from me, I couldn't care less about anything that happens pre-TNG. Wake me up when the writers are brave enough to tackle the future...
Aaaand it's yet another star trek set in the past. Hard pass from me, I couldn't care less about anything that happens pre-TNG. Wake me up when the writers are brave enough to tackle the future instead of rewriting the past through thinly veiled political pandering.
[Heresy warning...] Look, I loved ST as a kid, but couldn't watch it again as an adult. I was lukewarm about TNG, though there were great episodes. I gave DS9 a try and bailed on the execrable...
[Heresy warning...] Look, I loved ST as a kid, but couldn't watch it again as an adult. I was lukewarm about TNG, though there were great episodes. I gave DS9 a try and bailed on the execrable writing. Discovery was gorgeous, but again, the writing just failed too often on plot, dialogue, and characterization. Picard felt like it was trading on nostalgia for material I didn't find resonant in the first place.
I want grown-up science fiction with adult conflicts and complicated characters, where the erstwhile heroes don't always win (or are someone else's villains), with modestly plausible science, and a nice weaving of episodic plots and story arc. The Expanse mostly carried this off.
Why do we have to keep grinding away in the Star Trek universe, besides the same monetary considerations that have given us infinite Star Wars movies?
Do you think we could just boycott the franchises until new material is given a chance?
Not to be an insufferable DS9 evangelical, but how far in to it did you get? The first season or two is mostly pretty rough, with a few standout episodes, but it has a real growing the beard thing...
Not to be an insufferable DS9 evangelical, but how far in to it did you get? The first season or two is mostly pretty rough, with a few standout episodes, but it has a real growing the beard thing when, well, uh, Sisko grows a beard (dammit Star Trek). I also watched a lot of Star Trek growing up, and aside from the really good TNG episodes, (most of) seasons 3-7 of DS9 are all I've found to really hold up. If those were the things you liked about the expanse, I would think you'd like DS9. Minus the modestly plausible science of course.
Thank you for the recommendation, but I'm going to live up to my alias... There are just too many shows where I've been advised that you have to wade through a season or more of wobbly or outright...
Thank you for the recommendation, but I'm going to live up to my alias... There are just too many shows where I've been advised that you have to wade through a season or more of wobbly or outright bad episodes before everything clicks, and life is short. Unless you tell me they changed the writing team and you don't need to watch every episode to avoid losing the gist of the good ones, I'm not likely to try again.
That's fair, I feel the same way about a lot of shows; I certainly don't plan on wading through more late stage Supernatural than I have already. I will say though that, truth be told, you...
That's fair, I feel the same way about a lot of shows; I certainly don't plan on wading through more late stage Supernatural than I have already. I will say though that, truth be told, you probably could skip most of the first two seasons without missing a whole lot. Early DS9 is super episodic to its detriment. Dunno if anyone's made an "essential DS9" list of episodes, but you could probably skip anything under a 7.5 or 8 on imdb. But yeah, that's still a good bit of work to put in to what's ostensibly entertainment. It's definitely one of the downsides of TV being better and standards being higher nowadays that it's hard to appreciate older shows for the first time, especially super long ones with uneven quality (looking at you SG-1). Seriously, so many of these series were 200 episode behemoths, I'm glad that trend seems to have died down a bit, at least in the media I enjoy.
I know it's an impossible ask given the uncertainties in viewership and production funding, but I'd really like to see an SF series that begins with a complete story cycle in mind and builds the...
I know it's an impossible ask given the uncertainties in viewership and production funding, but I'd really like to see an SF series that begins with a complete story cycle in mind and builds the narrative tension to a well wrapped-up conclusion. There are so many shows that just keep dribbling out episodic filler, then tacking on season endings which leave the door open for yet more incoherently plotted seasons if the funders can be persuaded. There are some great ensemble casts and universes which can almost carry their shows through this (see Farscape, Firefly, and Killjoys for examples of what I'm talking about). Then there's the equivalent of coitus interruptus when a series gets cancelled, and wrapped with an abrupt, hastily cobbled-together ending...
I'm grateful to the creators who are strapped to an industry that makes ridiculous demands, but not sure that I want to spend time consuming more of their mediocre output.
[I know J. Michael Straczynski tried to do this with Babylon 5, but I just wasn't persistent enough to watch all the episodes of that, either.]
I appreciate the input from Tilders - there are days when I wish the inner critical logic engine would just shut up and let me enjoy things for what they are.
Ugh, likewise. I know by rights I should love it, but it's just so much to get through. It's probably a limitation of the old broadcast paradigm, but I really wish those producers got the value of...
[I know J. Michael Straczynski tried to do this with Babylon 5, but I just wasn't persistent enough to watch all the episodes of that, either.]
Ugh, likewise. I know by rights I should love it, but it's just so much to get through. It's probably a limitation of the old broadcast paradigm, but I really wish those producers got the value of brevity.
Ahh man, I know @spctrvl already evangelized DS9 (which I agree gets great) but B5 is a whole other thing. You're right, the SFX are really rough to look back on. It is really unique and...
[I know J. Michael Straczynski tried to do this with Babylon 5, but I just wasn't persistent enough to watch all the episodes of that, either.]
Ahh man, I know @spctrvl already evangelized DS9 (which I agree gets great) but B5 is a whole other thing. You're right, the SFX are really rough to look back on. It is really unique and delightful though, to see plot and character points from season 1 tie into things in later searching in a deep meaningful way. As opposed to a "writing staff flying by the seat of their pants figured out how to make a throw-away but quotable line from 3 seasons ago relevant to a favorite character".
Yeah, that's a great list. Definitely using that in the future should I get into one of these conversations again. Love how you broke it into four tiers instead of just go or no-go.
Yeah, that's a great list. Definitely using that in the future should I get into one of these conversations again. Love how you broke it into four tiers instead of just go or no-go.
The Daystrom Institute subreddit has a collection of these episode guides covering all the completed Star Trek series. And, most of them copied my four-tier rating system.
The Daystrom Institute subreddit has a collection of these episode guides covering all the completed Star Trek series. And, most of them copied my four-tier rating system.
I can't tell you the first, but I can tell you the second. DS9 really does pick up with the last episode of Season 2, where the writers introduce the Dominion. It ticks most of these boxes:
Unless you tell me they changed the writing team and you don't need to watch every episode to avoid losing the gist of the good ones
DS9 really does pick up with the last episode of Season 2, where the writers introduce the Dominion. It ticks most of these boxes:
I want grown-up science fiction with adult conflicts and complicated characters, where the erstwhile heroes don't always win (or are someone else's villains), with modestly plausible science, and a nice weaving of episodic plots and story arc.
Thank you - your effort in compiling the list is greatly appreciated. I'll concede that my grumpy Sturgeon's Law fastidiousness is probably leading me to skip right past some good stuff.
Thank you - your effort in compiling the list is greatly appreciated. I'll concede that my grumpy Sturgeon's Law fastidiousness is probably leading me to skip right past some good stuff.
I have to concur. I've watched all the Treks, and DS9 is my absolute favourite. It starts rough, but all Star Treks do. Things really start to get good after a season or two, and it stays good...
I have to concur. I've watched all the Treks, and DS9 is my absolute favourite. It starts rough, but all Star Treks do. Things really start to get good after a season or two, and it stays good until the end.
Agreed. The time of DS9/TNG was peak Trek. DS9 in general has stronger characters than TNG does that struggle with more complex topics, and it did the dark take that is popular now before it was cool.
Agreed. The time of DS9/TNG was peak Trek. DS9 in general has stronger characters than TNG does that struggle with more complex topics, and it did the dark take that is popular now before it was cool.
To every production company, there must be a franchise, something to put money into and to attach talent, and since nobody of adult age reads anything anymore, it has to be something somebody has...
Why do we have to keep grinding away in the Star Trek universe, besides the same monetary considerations that have given us infinite Star Wars movies?
To every production company, there must be a franchise, something to put money into and to attach talent, and since nobody of adult age reads anything anymore, it has to be something somebody has an emotional attachment to. Before Discovery, there were only JJ Star Trek movies that turned out to have been Star Wars movies the whole time, and before those movies, there was no new Star Trek at all. Is it not better, I ask, to have infinite derivatives of the same franchise than no franchise at all?
Do you think we could just boycott the franchises until new material is given a chance?
If they have the brand, they're going to use the brand. This isn't Netflix where that original shit is going to fly.
Or Amazon, where the Boy Trillionaire gets to revive The Expanse after it's been dropped elsewhere. Unfortunately, there's little incentive to maintain quality when you know fans and completists...
Or Amazon, where the Boy Trillionaire gets to revive The Expanse after it's been dropped elsewhere. Unfortunately, there's little incentive to maintain quality when you know fans and completists will watch whatever carries the franchise label.
Given that it'll take months to even start filming this (given the pandemic), and then more months to film it, and even more months of post-production, I'm not holding my breath. It seems like a...
Given that it'll take months to even start filming this (given the pandemic), and then more months to film it, and even more months of post-production, I'm not holding my breath.
It seems like a promising premise, and I hope it'll be good, but I'm not going to hang on tenterhooks for the next 12-18 months.
Fingers crossed that this will be a show that is actually good, but the only Trek thing I'm excited for after the disappointment that was Picard is Season 3 of the Orville.
Fingers crossed that this will be a show that is actually good, but the only Trek thing I'm excited for after the disappointment that was Picard is Season 3 of the Orville.
So for those keeping track at home, Discovery is bumped up to underrated gem that needed time to grow, Picard is now the wasted potential offering and new disappointment to the franchise, and Strange New Worlds is the new flagship of our hopes and dreams, but ready to disappoint us the second the pilot comes out. Orville stays about the same.
No no! The pilot will be amazing — it’s everything after, especially the ending, that will be totally rushed and poorly written :)
They seem to have this down to a science.
‘Temba, his interest waning’
Aaaand it's yet another star trek set in the past. Hard pass from me, I couldn't care less about anything that happens pre-TNG. Wake me up when the writers are brave enough to tackle the future instead of rewriting the past through thinly veiled political pandering.
[Heresy warning...] Look, I loved ST as a kid, but couldn't watch it again as an adult. I was lukewarm about TNG, though there were great episodes. I gave DS9 a try and bailed on the execrable writing. Discovery was gorgeous, but again, the writing just failed too often on plot, dialogue, and characterization. Picard felt like it was trading on nostalgia for material I didn't find resonant in the first place.
I want grown-up science fiction with adult conflicts and complicated characters, where the erstwhile heroes don't always win (or are someone else's villains), with modestly plausible science, and a nice weaving of episodic plots and story arc. The Expanse mostly carried this off.
Why do we have to keep grinding away in the Star Trek universe, besides the same monetary considerations that have given us infinite Star Wars movies?
Do you think we could just boycott the franchises until new material is given a chance?
Not to be an insufferable DS9 evangelical, but how far in to it did you get? The first season or two is mostly pretty rough, with a few standout episodes, but it has a real growing the beard thing when, well, uh, Sisko grows a beard (dammit Star Trek). I also watched a lot of Star Trek growing up, and aside from the really good TNG episodes, (most of) seasons 3-7 of DS9 are all I've found to really hold up. If those were the things you liked about the expanse, I would think you'd like DS9. Minus the modestly plausible science of course.
Thank you for the recommendation, but I'm going to live up to my alias... There are just too many shows where I've been advised that you have to wade through a season or more of wobbly or outright bad episodes before everything clicks, and life is short. Unless you tell me they changed the writing team and you don't need to watch every episode to avoid losing the gist of the good ones, I'm not likely to try again.
That's fair, I feel the same way about a lot of shows; I certainly don't plan on wading through more late stage Supernatural than I have already. I will say though that, truth be told, you probably could skip most of the first two seasons without missing a whole lot. Early DS9 is super episodic to its detriment. Dunno if anyone's made an "essential DS9" list of episodes, but you could probably skip anything under a 7.5 or 8 on imdb. But yeah, that's still a good bit of work to put in to what's ostensibly entertainment. It's definitely one of the downsides of TV being better and standards being higher nowadays that it's hard to appreciate older shows for the first time, especially super long ones with uneven quality (looking at you SG-1). Seriously, so many of these series were 200 episode behemoths, I'm glad that trend seems to have died down a bit, at least in the media I enjoy.
I know it's an impossible ask given the uncertainties in viewership and production funding, but I'd really like to see an SF series that begins with a complete story cycle in mind and builds the narrative tension to a well wrapped-up conclusion. There are so many shows that just keep dribbling out episodic filler, then tacking on season endings which leave the door open for yet more incoherently plotted seasons if the funders can be persuaded. There are some great ensemble casts and universes which can almost carry their shows through this (see Farscape, Firefly, and Killjoys for examples of what I'm talking about). Then there's the equivalent of coitus interruptus when a series gets cancelled, and wrapped with an abrupt, hastily cobbled-together ending...
I'm grateful to the creators who are strapped to an industry that makes ridiculous demands, but not sure that I want to spend time consuming more of their mediocre output.
[I know J. Michael Straczynski tried to do this with Babylon 5, but I just wasn't persistent enough to watch all the episodes of that, either.]
I appreciate the input from Tilders - there are days when I wish the inner critical logic engine would just shut up and let me enjoy things for what they are.
Ugh, likewise. I know by rights I should love it, but it's just so much to get through. It's probably a limitation of the old broadcast paradigm, but I really wish those producers got the value of brevity.
Ahh man, I know @spctrvl already evangelized DS9 (which I agree gets great) but B5 is a whole other thing. You're right, the SFX are really rough to look back on. It is really unique and delightful though, to see plot and character points from season 1 tie into things in later searching in a deep meaningful way. As opposed to a "writing staff flying by the seat of their pants figured out how to make a throw-away but quotable line from 3 seasons ago relevant to a favorite character".
It remains my all time favorite sci-fi series.
Many people have, including me.
Yeah, that's a great list. Definitely using that in the future should I get into one of these conversations again. Love how you broke it into four tiers instead of just go or no-go.
The Daystrom Institute subreddit has a collection of these episode guides covering all the completed Star Trek series. And, most of them copied my four-tier rating system.
I can't tell you the first, but I can tell you the second.
DS9 really does pick up with the last episode of Season 2, where the writers introduce the Dominion. It ticks most of these boxes:
Thank you - your effort in compiling the list is greatly appreciated. I'll concede that my grumpy Sturgeon's Law fastidiousness is probably leading me to skip right past some good stuff.
I have to concur. I've watched all the Treks, and DS9 is my absolute favourite. It starts rough, but all Star Treks do. Things really start to get good after a season or two, and it stays good until the end.
Agreed. The time of DS9/TNG was peak Trek. DS9 in general has stronger characters than TNG does that struggle with more complex topics, and it did the dark take that is popular now before it was cool.
There’s a new Battlestar Galactica in the works, and the one before was sublime and definitely grown-up.
Up until the last handful of episodes. Then it just became a dumpster fire
Everything through season 2 is pretty solid, season 3 has some really good episodes, I haven't gone back to watch season 4 in a long time...
To every production company, there must be a franchise, something to put money into and to attach talent, and since nobody of adult age reads anything anymore, it has to be something somebody has an emotional attachment to. Before Discovery, there were only JJ Star Trek movies that turned out to have been Star Wars movies the whole time, and before those movies, there was no new Star Trek at all. Is it not better, I ask, to have infinite derivatives of the same franchise than no franchise at all?
If they have the brand, they're going to use the brand. This isn't Netflix where that original shit is going to fly.
Or Amazon, where the Boy Trillionaire gets to revive The Expanse after it's been dropped elsewhere. Unfortunately, there's little incentive to maintain quality when you know fans and completists will watch whatever carries the franchise label.
Given that it'll take months to even start filming this (given the pandemic), and then more months to film it, and even more months of post-production, I'm not holding my breath.
It seems like a promising premise, and I hope it'll be good, but I'm not going to hang on tenterhooks for the next 12-18 months.
Maybe they'll use the enforced delay of the pandemic to write a cohesive, thoughtful, internally consistent set of scripts?
....who are we kidding
Fingers crossed that this will be a show that is actually good, but the only Trek thing I'm excited for after the disappointment that was Picard is Season 3 of the Orville.
Will it be heavily serialized like Discovery?
The creators have gone on the record saying that this show will be 'Optimistic and More Episodic'
That’s very good to hear.
We don't know yet.