35 votes

AI artist says he’s losing money from people stealing his work

38 comments

  1. [11]
    krellor
    Link
    I don't have much sympathy for this person in specific given their comments and behavior. But I have wondered where the line is between "new tool" and "not art." Like with a movie director, there...

    I don't have much sympathy for this person in specific given their comments and behavior. But I have wondered where the line is between "new tool" and "not art."

    Like with a movie director, there is work and skill to bring a vision to life, and it's often not even understood by actors at the time of filming, like with Mad Max.

    So would someone with a very specific vision, working with future tools to fine tune, craft, and shape every little detail of an image be considered art? There can be beauty and art in a math proof as well, but those don't draw much of a crowd at galleries.

    So I think there is a deeper conversation waiting to be had when and if the tools evolve to allow for micro adjustment, or composites, or something I can't conceptualize yet being possible with the application of vision and commitment.

    I'm also reminded of art, like oil paintings of nautical settings that were quick and easy to churn out in a way that captivates many people, but it's considered "mass market" in the art world and conversations about the shape of the seagulls, etc. But that whole discussion exists because even though there are oodles of these types of paintings that are quick to churn out, they still captivate people and conjure a feeling of the sea and port.

    24 votes
    1. [4]
      lou
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Essentialist statements about art as intrinsically human are some of the weakest arguments in this whole debate. They rely on a rather fixed and limited interpretation of art, a concept so...

      Essentialist statements about art as intrinsically human are some of the weakest arguments in this whole debate. They rely on a rather fixed and limited interpretation of art, a concept so slippery, mutable, and multiple that it is rarely clarifying.

      At 42, it's weird how 20-year-olds hold such antiquated views all over YouTube.

      I do believe there are very strong arguments against AI art. Chiefly the financial and emotional ones. But essentialism is so weak philosophically it makes me queasy.

      As I have said previously, in my opinion, the question "Is this art?" is not the most productive one. The most productive question is is this fair?

      19 votes
      1. [2]
        WrathOfTheHydra
        Link Parent
        I think you might have the age thing a bit backwards. Try coming of age as a new artist where many of the opportunities to work in professional art jobs are being crushed by skill-less prompters....

        I think you might have the age thing a bit backwards. Try coming of age as a new artist where many of the opportunities to work in professional art jobs are being crushed by skill-less prompters. We've already seen instances of D&D art coming through that has ended up being AI generated... that's a slot where a new and upcoming artist could have been. I think, of all the people that should be screaming from the rooftops about AI, the younger generation is going to be the loudest and fervent about it because they're currently losing their artistic voice. It's easy as an older person (and potentially non-artist?) to not see the human side being effected. For them it's real and they're already seeing machines churn through their future.

        20 votes
        1. lou
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          My discomfort is exclusively about arguments from essence, which I believe to be flawed. You are seemingly describing the financial argument, which I stated to be a very strong one ;)

          My discomfort is exclusively about arguments from essence, which I believe to be flawed. You are seemingly describing the financial argument, which I stated to be a very strong one ;)

          17 votes
      2. Fiachra
        Link Parent
        I think social media conversations inevitably jump to broad sweeping essentialist statements like that because most people don't know enough about a given topic to get into actual details, and the...

        I think social media conversations inevitably jump to broad sweeping essentialist statements like that because most people don't know enough about a given topic to get into actual details, and the ones that do aren't writing tweets that have mass appeal.

        5 votes
    2. [4]
      vord
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I'm reminded of how the meaning of art is not necessarily subjective (and arguably not at all). I loved this PhilosophyTube exploration on this issue. So in that vein, when you have an AI creating...

      I'm reminded of how the meaning of art is not necessarily subjective (and arguably not at all). I loved this PhilosophyTube exploration on this issue.

      So in that vein, when you have an AI creating the majority of the art....there is no meaning behind the art because the AI has no emotion behind its creation.

      So the question kind of becomes "Was this picture of a boat created to evoke a feeling, or was this picture of a boat created because somebody wanted a picture of a boat on a wall?"

      And while both pictures can evoke the same feeling, they often don't. At least, not to somebody actively looking instead of just seeing (the same difference between listening and hearing).

      And that's why The Mona Lisa, despite all its acclaim....is kinda trash. Scratch this commentary, I'm thinking of a different painting I think. One the artist considered a bit of a throwaway that the public at large became obsessed with. But my memory is failing me and I think I got it wrong.

      9 votes
      1. [2]
        krellor
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I think this gets into the whole, is it the intent of the artist, the difficulty of the work, or the interpretation of the viewer that makes something art? For me the answer is "yes" and probably...

        I think this gets into the whole, is it the intent of the artist, the difficulty of the work, or the interpretation of the viewer that makes something art? For me the answer is "yes" and probably other factors. There are probably as many ways for something to be considered art as their are ways for people to find to appreciate something.

        But I'm one of those people who loves the mass market nautical paintings, oil on canvas, and will stare at them and think of time on the sea. 🙂 So my art chops are C tier.

        Edit: though I have a good knowledge and understanding of art in the age of sail, including classics like Vermeer's hat, and love to look for clues to the world in those paintings like signs of trade and from where.

        6 votes
        1. vord
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Your personal enjoyment of a work is subjective and that's a fine thing. I did edit in at some point about how quality that is subjective, but how it's the meaning that is often not. You enjoy...

          Your personal enjoyment of a work is subjective and that's a fine thing. I did edit in at some point about how quality that is subjective, but how it's the meaning that is often not.

          You enjoy that mass-market sea art. I have some of my own, three Wesley Wess Hand Cast Paper pieces I found in a thrift store. The one seashell I have is similar to this one. I found a thread where the artist himself makes an appearance. Best I can tell, there are many similar pieces, but each one is somewhat unique, given its airbrushed casted paper. I'll edit in a picture of the best one I have later as I think you'll quite enjoy. But I'm doubtful Wes gave deep thought about the meaning of the art as he was churning it out. But it's a nice accent to my room and accents the vibe I want, and that has value.

          So, in a further expansion of my own views, I'd say AI art can have value....but not really meaning, if you catch my drift.

          1 vote
      2. Bwerf
        Link Parent
        Die zauberflöte by Mozart perhaps?

        Die zauberflöte by Mozart perhaps?

    3. [2]
      creesch
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      You might be interested in this post from last week: https://tildes.net/~creative/1j3s/my_hated_ai_video It actually discusses some of the things you are bringing up here as well. It's interesting...

      You might be interested in this post from last week: https://tildes.net/~creative/1j3s/my_hated_ai_video

      It actually discusses some of the things you are bringing up here as well.

      So would someone with a very specific vision, working with future tools to fine tune, craft, and shape every little detail of an image be considered art? There can be beauty and art in a math proof as well, but those don't draw much of a crowd at galleries.

      It's interesting to me that you mention “future” tools. I personally think you can already make art from AI generated materials (as I mentioned in the article) as long as you use them as old-fashioned samples to create something new yourself. Of course, there is a separate argument about the underlying training material for the diffusion model you used and if that is properly attributed.

      Alternatively, if a conventional artist uses all their own handmade art as input for a model, then I believe you can also argue that this also can be considered art.

      In both scenarios, AI can already be part of what people consider art.

      Although I suspect you are more or less talking about tools that give much more fine-grained control surrounding prompts and adjustments after that. Given what you mentioned in the quote below.

      So I think there is a deeper conversation waiting to be had when and if the tools evolve to allow for micro adjustment, or composites, or something I can't conceptualize yet being possible with the application of vision and commitment.

      The beginnings of this conversation are already there. Elsewhere on the internet, someone mentioned something along the lines of “real AI artists spend hundreds of hours in ComfyUI”. Which is a tool I was not familiar with, but looking at the GitHub repo appears to give users very fine-grained control over diffusion models. At least, much more control than I realized was possible. I don't think the controls are quite at the level yet where you can have this conversation in earnest, though.

      2 votes
      1. krellor
        Link Parent
        The great thing about talking about future tools and discussions is I get to raise the question without suggesting an answer! 😂 I would agree that there are examples of art being made with AI...

        The great thing about talking about future tools and discussions is I get to raise the question without suggesting an answer! 😂

        I would agree that there are examples of art being made with AI tools today, though it isn't quite what I envision when I made that comment. I'm imagining, but not limiting my thoughts, to something like you can circle a little section and give technical instructions to vary the stroke detail, layer in a different color, add a vigorous stroke here in this direction, etc... Really have a tool geared towards you exactingingly bringing your specific vision to life.

        Which isn't to say I think that is required for something to be art. But it is what I imagine when I hear people define art by the technical difficulty or skill required, like this article does.

        Cheers!

        3 votes
  2. [26]
    Drewbahr
    Link
    What "work" did he do, exactly?

    What "work" did he do, exactly?

    4 votes
    1. [14]
      Pistos
      Link Parent
      The article says that he (or he through his lawyer) claims that the work was the prompt conversation with the AI, going through iterations of refinement before settling on the final render, plus...

      The article says that he (or he through his lawyer) claims that the work was the prompt conversation with the AI, going through iterations of refinement before settling on the final render, plus refinement of the AI output with graphics editing tools like Photoshop.

      5 votes
      1. [13]
        Drewbahr
        Link Parent
        Ehh ... To me, purely my opinion, but within the wider conversation going on here ... I don't know if "talked with an AI, then did touch-up on what it made" makes you an artist. I don't personally...

        Ehh ...

        To me, purely my opinion, but within the wider conversation going on here ... I don't know if "talked with an AI, then did touch-up on what it made" makes you an artist. I don't personally believe that anything AI-generated is "art", but this guy did "do" something - even if it's just editing an output from a machine.

        If anything would have claim to copyright the art in question, it would be the AI - which cannot hold a copyright in the first place, so the whole point is moot.

        8 votes
        1. [12]
          Fiachra
          Link Parent
          Personally I think we should replace the term "prompting" with "commissioning", I think that clarifies the role of the human much better. If you commissioned a human artist to compose an image for...

          Personally I think we should replace the term "prompting" with "commissioning", I think that clarifies the role of the human much better.

          If you commissioned a human artist to compose an image for you, gave feedback and iterated a few times, and then made your own edits in Photoshop after, did you have some creative input? Yes. Could you claim to be the creator of the image? No.

          12 votes
          1. Greg
            Link Parent
            Photography is the analogy that makes most sense to me. You've got a highly advanced technical tool, either a camera or an ML model, and you can use that tool in a workflow anywhere along the...

            Photography is the analogy that makes most sense to me. You've got a highly advanced technical tool, either a camera or an ML model, and you can use that tool in a workflow anywhere along the spectrum from near-zero-effort output in five seconds right up to carefully refined, composed, and edited final result.

            It's not a perfect match - there's the whole other axis around training data and where it came from to consider for ML models - but when we're discussing creative input, copyright, and the like I think the shoe fits.

            5 votes
          2. [10]
            AutoModerator
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            2 votes
            1. [3]
              Fiachra
              Link Parent
              (Off topic: Did a moderation bot just spring to life to defend the honour of AIs? :) ) I think your example illustrates exactly why not. This semi-famous painter may or may not be on the right...

              (Off topic: Did a moderation bot just spring to life to defend the honour of AIs? :) )

              I think your example illustrates exactly why not. This semi-famous painter may or may not be on the right side of the law with that scheme, I can't really comment on that, but clearly he's not the creator of those paintings. Regardless if the actual creator was human or AI.

              2 votes
              1. [2]
                AutoModerator
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                2 votes
                1. Fiachra
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  Guess again :P Remember I made it clear I'm not talking about legal status. Let's stay on the first example you brought up: a man with some fame as an artist hires someone else to make a painting,...

                  I detect you are British by your spelling

                  Guess again :P

                  I disagree strongly with this statement.

                  Remember I made it clear I'm not talking about legal status. Let's stay on the first example you brought up: a man with some fame as an artist hires someone else to make a painting, it's brought into the room and he signs it. He has no other contact with the piece. Could you honestly look someone in the eye and say "that man created that painting"? Again, not talking about legal entitlements.

                  Did the AI spontaneously generate the art in question? Or did it require someone to prompt the AI with their own creative input.

                  You have to prompt a human comissioner too. Otherwise they don't make art for you. But it's still them making the art.

                  3 votes
            2. [6]
              Drewbahr
              Link Parent
              But actual people are making them.

              But actual people are making them.

              1. [5]
                AutoModerator
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                1 vote
                1. [3]
                  sparksbet
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  Well, for one, there's legal precedent of only works of human authorship being copyrightable. So there may well be a legal difference between the circumstances based on that. Fwiw, I do believe AI...

                  Well, for one, there's legal precedent of only works of human authorship being copyrightable. So there may well be a legal difference between the circumstances based on that.

                  Fwiw, I do believe AI art is art, on a philosophical level, albeit very often bad low-effort art. I don't think there's a coherent definition of art that excludes it without excluding other things that obviously should count as art, like collage. But legally, whether it's art or not doesn't matter. What matters is if AI art counts as a creative work of human authorship, which is still being settled in the courts.

                  3 votes
                  1. [2]
                    AutoModerator
                    (edited )
                    Link Parent
                    1. sparksbet
                      Link Parent
                      Human authorship, in this context, is equivalent to being the product of human creativity (although it only has to be a tiny amount of creativity). This is why the monkey selfie ended up in public...

                      Human authorship, in this context, is equivalent to being the product of human creativity (although it only has to be a tiny amount of creativity). This is why the monkey selfie ended up in public domain, and while there are some legal arguments you could make for human authorship of AI art based on prompt engineering, none have yet succeeded in court.

                      2 votes
                2. Drewbahr
                  Link Parent
                  Because sentient beings create art, in my opinion. Machines don't.

                  Because sentient beings create art, in my opinion. Machines don't.

    2. [11]
      AutoModerator
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      1 vote
      1. [10]
        Drewbahr
        Link Parent
        For one, he actually arranged something himself. He didn't just talk at a urinal.

        For one, he actually arranged something himself. He didn't just talk at a urinal.

        4 votes
        1. [9]
          AutoModerator
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          3 votes
          1. [8]
            Drewbahr
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            You did, because you used a camera to take an image. You did something, physically, with a certain degree of intention. Now, a random picture of nothing in particular may not be particularly...

            You did, because you used a camera to take an image.

            You did something, physically, with a certain degree of intention.

            Now, a random picture of nothing in particular may not be particularly artistic, but that's another conversation.

            2 votes
            1. [5]
              Lobachevsky
              Link Parent
              Is typing on a keyboard not physical or can't be done with intention? Not to mention that attribution has nothing to do with who did the physical work, as already has been discussed in this...

              Is typing on a keyboard not physical or can't be done with intention?
              Not to mention that attribution has nothing to do with who did the physical work, as already has been discussed in this thread. Sol LeWitt is being credited for his art executed by others even after his death. The art world has settled this way before the AI hate train.

              2 votes
              1. [4]
                Drewbahr
                Link Parent
                But his art is still being executed by people. Attribution aside, people are still making it. I still don't believe that telling a machine to churn out garbage based on copyright infringement is art.

                But his art is still being executed by people. Attribution aside, people are still making it.

                I still don't believe that telling a machine to churn out garbage based on copyright infringement is art.

                1. [3]
                  Lobachevsky
                  Link Parent
                  I hope you're consistent then and are against Photoshop's generative fill and iphone selfies also.

                  I hope you're consistent then and are against Photoshop's generative fill and iphone selfies also.

                  1 vote
                  1. [2]
                    Drewbahr
                    Link Parent
                    I am.

                    I am.

                    2 votes
                    1. Lobachevsky
                      Link Parent
                      Good to know. Of course those are completely accepted by society so there's not much to talk about here. Agree to disagree.

                      Good to know. Of course those are completely accepted by society so there's not much to talk about here. Agree to disagree.

            2. [2]
              AutoModerator
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              2 votes
              1. Drewbahr
                Link Parent
                For my part, it has to do with a degree of physicality. In some cases, that physicality comes in the form of actual interaction (applying paint to canvas, marker to paper, crayon to wall, etc). In...

                For my part, it has to do with a degree of physicality. In some cases, that physicality comes in the form of actual interaction (applying paint to canvas, marker to paper, crayon to wall, etc). In other cases, it comes in the form of interaction with the physical world (applying camera settings, like aperture and F-stop, to manipulate a photo). I understand that many forms of art no longer require a specific interaction with the physical world - an author could use speech-to-text to draft a book, that may only be read on e-reading devices. That, to me, is where the "intention" comes in. Intentionality could be choosing to take a specific image, or it could be to write a specific story.

                I also firmly believe that "art" is made by sentient beings - beings that have a statement they are trying to convey with the specific application of their skills. Not everything made by a sentient being is "art" - I wouldn't argue that the umpteenth photo of my dog sleeping on the couch constitutes art - but I believe that "art" is only made by sentient beings.

                Using AI tools, to me, lacks the physicality and the intention - as well as the sentience. You are no longer applying a skill to get a specifically-intended outcome. You are spitting words at a machine, and when it comes back with hot garbage, you tell it "no, not like that, more like this". You do that ad nauseum until you end up with something that resembles what you're looking for. There's little to no physicality (writing a text prompt), there's little to no intention (the machine doesn't know what you're saying and cannot interpret deeper meanings or desires), and there's no sentience behind the thing doing the work.

                Is this a thoroughly-researched opinion? No, of course not. I'm just some dude who hates AI and what it stands for. I dislike the uncanny valley-esque garbage it puts onto the internet, where things were already hard to trust beforehand. I dislike the energy and resources required to create garbage that no one asked for. But those are arguments outside of the scope of this discussion.

                While I agree that the AI cited in the article is likely based on copyright infringement, I feel that is irrelevant to the larger conversation.

                I disagree. If the output from artists can no longer be creatively protected or personally monetized by them, then "art" as we know it is dead. What's more, it means no more works for AI to mooch off of.

                AI is not going away, and is only going to get more sophisticated. Technology will advance, and with it, the definition of what "art" and "creation" are.

                That doesn't mean I have to like it, and there's nothing inevitable about any of this.

                Throughout history, art has continually challenged its own definition through technological advancements, and has repeatedly come to the conclusion that intent is far more significant than means or method.

                Art has definitely challenged its own definition, and while I may be of a minority opinion, it's still mine to have. You haven't yet convinced me otherwise.

                Let me put it more bluntly - I hate AI.

                1 vote
  3. danbee
    Link
    Really thought this was an Onion article at first. Even the picture of the guy has The Onion vibes.

    Really thought this was an Onion article at first. Even the picture of the guy has The Onion vibes.

    1 vote