"We have a saturated market, which means growth is very difficult. So instead, we're going to start nickel and diming everything so we can hit those quarterly profits for our executives and...
"We have a saturated market, which means growth is very difficult. So instead, we're going to start nickel and diming everything so we can hit those quarterly profits for our executives and shareholders" - Capitalism.
"Every single industry has record profits leading to record inflation, we can't have these freeloaders getting minor perks for pouring their ever tightening budget into our coffers. Fuck 'em." ~...
"Every single industry has record profits leading to record inflation, we can't have these freeloaders getting minor perks for pouring their ever tightening budget into our coffers. Fuck 'em."
~ Capitalism
Ignoring all the other issues with capitalism, the notion of having another layer of capitalism on top of regular capitalism, where we try to make money off of making money, feels sort of absurd....
Ignoring all the other issues with capitalism, the notion of having another layer of capitalism on top of regular capitalism, where we try to make money off of making money, feels sort of absurd. Like why can't just making a steady profit be good enough? Having a system that needs to constantly increase profits forever is just silly. It's designed to fail.
Not just silly, impossible. We live on a finite world. Falling profits is inevitable. You can only cut costs so much by matetial advancements and sqeezing labor down to slavery. If you actually...
Not just silly, impossible. We live on a finite world. Falling profits is inevitable.
You can only cut costs so much by matetial advancements and sqeezing labor down to slavery. If you actually must pay wages, inflation slowly cuts into your profits in a competitive environment. That's why all captialistic enterprises all march towards monopolization.
The the only ways to maintain or increase profits forever is to:
Have no competition that would undercut your margins.
Not actually sell goods or services, but to extract rents.
You'll notice most companies are really pushing the latter these days.
IMO, people refer to capitalism and commoditization interchangeably when claiming capitalism will bring prices down, when in reality capitalism is full of corporations desperately fighting against...
IMO, people refer to capitalism and commoditization interchangeably when claiming capitalism will bring prices down, when in reality capitalism is full of corporations desperately fighting against commoditization specifically because it reduces their profits.
Inflation exists, so it isn't impossible for profits to grow forever. If your company isn't making record breaking profits every quarter, you would, in fact, be falling behind.
Inflation exists, so it isn't impossible for profits to grow forever. If your company isn't making record breaking profits every quarter, you would, in fact, be falling behind.
Yes, it is impossible to grow forever. We live on a finite planet, which must be constrained to the laws of physics. My favorite is that roughly, given our current growth of energy use since...
My favorite is that roughly, given our current growth of energy use since approximately 1650 (about 3% annually), that within about 400 years the oceans boil away. Not because of carbon emissions, but because of Earth's inability to radiate excess heat generated from sources other than the sun into space.
And no, your profits won't grow forever, at least in real terms. Inflation means: Your costs go up 5% (wages, supplies), you increase your price 5%, profits stay the same. Yes, the number is bigger, but not in "real" terms.
If you want to be more technically correct, with a softer thesis, you could say "Any growth in profits that outpaces inflation is unsustainable in the long term."
Really, it sounds like we're starting to find market bottom where customer loyalty isn't valued as a way to get market share. When companies have to pay more for gas (i.e. airlines, retailer...
Really, it sounds like we're starting to find market bottom where customer loyalty isn't valued as a way to get market share.
When companies have to pay more for gas (i.e. airlines, retailer shipping) and product (inflation), that cost is passed on to the consumers and that's how they feel it. It sounds like some of these companies in the article rather than raise prices more than they have, they took away some benefits.
I didn't seen any comment in this CNBC article related to executives or shareholders.
It's just growth for the sake of growth with these people. I was thinking about how they successfully created academies in the UK in the early 2010s and it's the same thing. They just HAVE to...
It's just growth for the sake of growth with these people.
I was thinking about how they successfully created academies in the UK in the early 2010s and it's the same thing. They just HAVE to grow, if they don't? They just stop functioning entirely and get swallowed by the competition.
My spending habits are greatly impacted by two things, convenience and loyalty. For example, when I put gas in my vehicle, I usually go to the same brand of gas station even if it means driving a...
My spending habits are greatly impacted by two things, convenience and loyalty. For example, when I put gas in my vehicle, I usually go to the same brand of gas station even if it means driving a bit out of my way. It’s because they have a good loyalty program that allows me to earn points that are meaningful and allow me to take advantage of savings in other areas of my life. If that program goes away, my decision then becomes “what gas station is close and which is the least expensive?”
I used to go to Starbucks more often. I could rack up stars and would use them to cover the cost of a drink. While I was there I would buy a treat (food) for myself. The stars have become less valuable because it costs more stars to get anything, and the bonus star events have become really bad. It’s not worth it anymore. I used to manage a Starbucks, I know the margins on the drink supplies. The changes are not about things being more expensive for Starbucks, it is all about making higher profits. That has come at the cost of losing loyal patrons. I used to go two to three times a week, and now that is down to maybe once a month. It’s too expensive.
There are loads of things in my life that I have given loyalty to simply because they offered perks that were better than their competitors. That is why it is called a loyalty program. As their loyalty programs have changed, so has my loyalty, and I find myself shopping around more for better prices and better perks.
+1 on the Starbucks' program being trashed causing me to significantly go less/buy less. It compounds significantly too in that the bonus star events feel less worth it and I'm going less anyway...
+1 on the Starbucks' program being trashed causing me to significantly go less/buy less. It compounds significantly too in that the bonus star events feel less worth it and I'm going less anyway so I never finish those so I never have enough stars for anything.
I feel like they could have just removed it completely and it would have felt better.
There used to be bonus star events where I could meet the fairly easy requirements and get a bonus 150 stars. That was worth it because it was a free drink. Now it is crap like “visit three times...
There used to be bonus star events where I could meet the fairly easy requirements and get a bonus 150 stars. That was worth it because it was a free drink. Now it is crap like “visit three times in a week and get a bonus 25 stars” but the drink costs 200 stars.
The events are harder to satisfy, the payout is worse, and everything costs more stars. They made the loyalty program complete trash.
I had a similar experience with Chipotle recently. I used to eat there quite a bit and would occasionally get a free meal from their points system. For some reason though, they removed the "higher...
I used to go to Starbucks more often. I could rack up stars and would use them to cover the cost of a drink. While I was there I would buy a treat (food) for myself. The stars have become less valuable because it costs more stars to get anything, and the bonus star events have become really bad. It’s not worth it anymore.
I had a similar experience with Chipotle recently. I used to eat there quite a bit and would occasionally get a free meal from their points system. For some reason though, they removed the "higher tier" rewards (like burritos) and jacked up the required points for everything else which is a shame and now I don't go there as often.
I guess it's the case that they've decided that they'll make more money upcharging the frequent customers because the difference made on the ones that stay and pay offsets the ones that leave (as...
I guess it's the case that they've decided that they'll make more money upcharging the frequent customers because the difference made on the ones that stay and pay offsets the ones that leave (as a minor aside, I feel like video game devs catering to whales' spending habits is the extreme version of this. Dunno what that would look like for starbucks/chipotle, but hey). Honestly, I feel like a lot of people (myself included) have largely moved past the concept of brand loyalty, so rewards/loyalty programs just aren't as popular. Maybe it's because the programs have gotten worse, or maybe it's the other way around. I just feel cynical at this point because it's happening everywhere. Every single product/service under capitalism is getting worse over time so that profit margins can increase. Line goes up.
When it comes to companies, loyalty is earned. Which either means lowest prices/best deals, or best product. However, companies have gamified to minimize the former and use marketting to...
When it comes to companies, loyalty is earned.
Which either means lowest prices/best deals, or best product.
However, companies have gamified to minimize the former and use marketting to substitute for the latter.
I completely forgot about Chipotle. Yeah, that’s another place that I don’t go to nearly as much. It’s gone from a couple times a month, to maybe a couple of times a year. Again, the loyalty...
I completely forgot about Chipotle. Yeah, that’s another place that I don’t go to nearly as much. It’s gone from a couple times a month, to maybe a couple of times a year. Again, the loyalty program went down in quality, the portion sizes went down (at least that’s how it is at my local one), and everything got more expensive. It just isn’t worth it to me anymore. I’d rather make my own burrito at home.
So companies now view both their customers and their employees as liabilities. Should I soon expect that corporations will skip the preamble of providing a service or good and skip straight to...
So companies now view both their customers and their employees as liabilities. Should I soon expect that corporations will skip the preamble of providing a service or good and skip straight to robbing me at gun point?
I love how this article kinda “Both sides” this topic by makes it seem like companies are tackling a whole host of issues, like customer loyalty and retention. It’s not like they’re just that...
I love how this article kinda “Both sides” this topic by makes it seem like companies are tackling a whole host of issues, like customer loyalty and retention. It’s not like they’re just that they’re insatiable pursuit of profits has reached the point where profits are only achievable by becoming a worse service/product to your customers at a higher cost in order to have gains.
It really feels like the world has gotten to a point where journalism taking an "impartial" stance has started to lose its veneer. Journalism is inherently political whether you like it or not,...
It really feels like the world has gotten to a point where journalism taking an "impartial" stance has started to lose its veneer. Journalism is inherently political whether you like it or not, and the choice to pick a stance of representing a situation in a way that will appear apolitical to most people isn't working as well. As it becomes harder to avoid the degeneration of capitalism, the cracks beginning to show, etc, it becomes easier to identify articles like this as supporting the status quo (which is all that impartiality is, most of the time).
I don't need to be convinced with rewards to shop at places I was going to shop at anyway. Any tactic to get me to return before I would have normally or to spend more money is manipulative in my...
I don't need to be convinced with rewards to shop at places I was going to shop at anyway. Any tactic to get me to return before I would have normally or to spend more money is manipulative in my view and I don't want to engage with that behavior.
I hope that didn't come off too aggressive. I've always gathered this was an unpopular opinion, but it's one I'm content with. Lol
You're not the only one, I also loathe loyalty programs beyond any simple flat discount, I value my data and shopping habit tracking data more than a percentage or two of money spent, much less...
You're not the only one, I also loathe loyalty programs beyond any simple flat discount, I value my data and shopping habit tracking data more than a percentage or two of money spent, much less jumping though hoops for it
I also realize I'm in a relative position of privilege and that lots of people really need that couple of percentage, so no shade to anyone using them to helping themselves get by a bit easier
To me it isn't about trying to get me to return before I normally would have but more of a "if I'm already here shopping and they want to give me something for it.." Case in point: Years ago our...
To me it isn't about trying to get me to return before I normally would have but more of a "if I'm already here shopping and they want to give me something for it.."
Case in point: Years ago our local grocery store that I already shopped at had a reward card that earned points. You could spend the points on different things but one of those was rebates for gas. In the beginning, we'd save up our points for 6-8 months and use the points to fill up our tank twice on a trip for free. We'd pay $0 in gas for the whole trip. That lasted quite some time but eventually they capped the points to only getting you up to 35 cents off per gallon. That sucked comparatively but we just used our points when we thought about it and still got discounted gas. That unfortunately stopped and they do not offer gas discounts anymore but we still shop there. The only thing that promotion ever did was influence me to buy their store brand mac n cheese instead of a name brand since I'd get 4x points.
I barely changed what I was already doing and got back probably over $1500 in gas savings so why wouldn't I take advantage of offer?
That's cool, I'm glad there are people like you. I hope people like you can break the entire system down one day. Me, I'll go where the milk and eggs are cheaper this week. Sell my data, sure....
That's cool, I'm glad there are people like you. I hope people like you can break the entire system down one day.
Me, I'll go where the milk and eggs are cheaper this week. Sell my data, sure. They all do and if it's worth $2 per yogurt, that's the best I can do for my family with a set amount of money.
I'm the US the shrinkflation is hitting everything and it's getting really noticable. Before your notice it but the change wasn't as dramatic as it's gotten over the last year or so. We were...
I'm the US the shrinkflation is hitting everything and it's getting really noticable. Before your notice it but the change wasn't as dramatic as it's gotten over the last year or so. We were noticing it particularly in paper towels and toilet paper rolls
Good quality for prepared foods has taken a nose dive, I bought a frozen DiGiorno pizza that is noticeably smaller like 25% smaller than it was a year ago and they definitely added fillers to the crust. I used to really like the bacon Gouda sandwiches at Starbucks but those are also like 25% smaller and at a higher price.
This is a fascinating thread for me to read as an 'outsider'. US loyalty programs - even now - are insanely generous by my standards! Loyalty programs here in Australia have always been...
This is a fascinating thread for me to read as an 'outsider'.
US loyalty programs - even now - are insanely generous by my standards!
Loyalty programs here in Australia have always been notoriously poor - where they have existed at all.
Recently, many more companies here have started loyalty programs, but the 'incentives' are laughable in most cases, and they are extremely transparent fronts for something no-one has mentioned yet - data harvesting.
Surely the whole point of most loyalty programs is not so much to retain customers, as to collect and track their data?
This, of course, is of significant monetary value to the company concerned, either directly or for on-selling purposes.
Yep, and it's probably easier to track data because people have a bigger incentive to pay with smartphone app or etc, so there's less of a need to have the loyalty program in the first place.
Surely the whole point of most loyalty programs is not so much to retain customers, as to collect and track their data?
Yep, and it's probably easier to track data because people have a bigger incentive to pay with smartphone app or etc, so there's less of a need to have the loyalty program in the first place.
"We have a saturated market, which means growth is very difficult. So instead, we're going to start nickel and diming everything so we can hit those quarterly profits for our executives and shareholders" - Capitalism.
"Every single industry has record profits leading to record inflation, we can't have these freeloaders getting minor perks for pouring their ever tightening budget into our coffers. Fuck 'em."
~ Capitalism
Ignoring all the other issues with capitalism, the notion of having another layer of capitalism on top of regular capitalism, where we try to make money off of making money, feels sort of absurd. Like why can't just making a steady profit be good enough? Having a system that needs to constantly increase profits forever is just silly. It's designed to fail.
Not just silly, impossible. We live on a finite world. Falling profits is inevitable.
You can only cut costs so much by matetial advancements and sqeezing labor down to slavery. If you actually must pay wages, inflation slowly cuts into your profits in a competitive environment. That's why all captialistic enterprises all march towards monopolization.
The the only ways to maintain or increase profits forever is to:
You'll notice most companies are really pushing the latter these days.
IMO, people refer to capitalism and commoditization interchangeably when claiming capitalism will bring prices down, when in reality capitalism is full of corporations desperately fighting against commoditization specifically because it reduces their profits.
Inflation exists, so it isn't impossible for profits to grow forever. If your company isn't making record breaking profits every quarter, you would, in fact, be falling behind.
Yes, it is impossible to grow forever. We live on a finite planet, which must be constrained to the laws of physics.
My favorite is that roughly, given our current growth of energy use since approximately 1650 (about 3% annually), that within about 400 years the oceans boil away. Not because of carbon emissions, but because of Earth's inability to radiate excess heat generated from sources other than the sun into space.
And no, your profits won't grow forever, at least in real terms. Inflation means: Your costs go up 5% (wages, supplies), you increase your price 5%, profits stay the same. Yes, the number is bigger, but not in "real" terms.
If you want to be more technically correct, with a softer thesis, you could say "Any growth in profits that outpaces inflation is unsustainable in the long term."
Really, it sounds like we're starting to find market bottom where customer loyalty isn't valued as a way to get market share.
When companies have to pay more for gas (i.e. airlines, retailer shipping) and product (inflation), that cost is passed on to the consumers and that's how they feel it. It sounds like some of these companies in the article rather than raise prices more than they have, they took away some benefits.
I didn't seen any comment in this CNBC article related to executives or shareholders.
It's just growth for the sake of growth with these people.
I was thinking about how they successfully created academies in the UK in the early 2010s and it's the same thing. They just HAVE to grow, if they don't? They just stop functioning entirely and get swallowed by the competition.
There's got to be something done.
My spending habits are greatly impacted by two things, convenience and loyalty. For example, when I put gas in my vehicle, I usually go to the same brand of gas station even if it means driving a bit out of my way. It’s because they have a good loyalty program that allows me to earn points that are meaningful and allow me to take advantage of savings in other areas of my life. If that program goes away, my decision then becomes “what gas station is close and which is the least expensive?”
I used to go to Starbucks more often. I could rack up stars and would use them to cover the cost of a drink. While I was there I would buy a treat (food) for myself. The stars have become less valuable because it costs more stars to get anything, and the bonus star events have become really bad. It’s not worth it anymore. I used to manage a Starbucks, I know the margins on the drink supplies. The changes are not about things being more expensive for Starbucks, it is all about making higher profits. That has come at the cost of losing loyal patrons. I used to go two to three times a week, and now that is down to maybe once a month. It’s too expensive.
There are loads of things in my life that I have given loyalty to simply because they offered perks that were better than their competitors. That is why it is called a loyalty program. As their loyalty programs have changed, so has my loyalty, and I find myself shopping around more for better prices and better perks.
+1 on the Starbucks' program being trashed causing me to significantly go less/buy less. It compounds significantly too in that the bonus star events feel less worth it and I'm going less anyway so I never finish those so I never have enough stars for anything.
I feel like they could have just removed it completely and it would have felt better.
There used to be bonus star events where I could meet the fairly easy requirements and get a bonus 150 stars. That was worth it because it was a free drink. Now it is crap like “visit three times in a week and get a bonus 25 stars” but the drink costs 200 stars.
The events are harder to satisfy, the payout is worse, and everything costs more stars. They made the loyalty program complete trash.
I had a similar experience with Chipotle recently. I used to eat there quite a bit and would occasionally get a free meal from their points system. For some reason though, they removed the "higher tier" rewards (like burritos) and jacked up the required points for everything else which is a shame and now I don't go there as often.
I guess it's the case that they've decided that they'll make more money upcharging the frequent customers because the difference made on the ones that stay and pay offsets the ones that leave (as a minor aside, I feel like video game devs catering to whales' spending habits is the extreme version of this. Dunno what that would look like for starbucks/chipotle, but hey). Honestly, I feel like a lot of people (myself included) have largely moved past the concept of brand loyalty, so rewards/loyalty programs just aren't as popular. Maybe it's because the programs have gotten worse, or maybe it's the other way around. I just feel cynical at this point because it's happening everywhere. Every single product/service under capitalism is getting worse over time so that profit margins can increase. Line goes up.
When it comes to companies, loyalty is earned.
Which either means lowest prices/best deals, or best product.
However, companies have gamified to minimize the former and use marketting to substitute for the latter.
I completely forgot about Chipotle. Yeah, that’s another place that I don’t go to nearly as much. It’s gone from a couple times a month, to maybe a couple of times a year. Again, the loyalty program went down in quality, the portion sizes went down (at least that’s how it is at my local one), and everything got more expensive. It just isn’t worth it to me anymore. I’d rather make my own burrito at home.
So companies now view both their customers and their employees as liabilities. Should I soon expect that corporations will skip the preamble of providing a service or good and skip straight to robbing me at gun point?
I love how this article kinda “Both sides” this topic by makes it seem like companies are tackling a whole host of issues, like customer loyalty and retention. It’s not like they’re just that they’re insatiable pursuit of profits has reached the point where profits are only achievable by becoming a worse service/product to your customers at a higher cost in order to have gains.
It really feels like the world has gotten to a point where journalism taking an "impartial" stance has started to lose its veneer. Journalism is inherently political whether you like it or not, and the choice to pick a stance of representing a situation in a way that will appear apolitical to most people isn't working as well. As it becomes harder to avoid the degeneration of capitalism, the cracks beginning to show, etc, it becomes easier to identify articles like this as supporting the status quo (which is all that impartiality is, most of the time).
I don't need to be convinced with rewards to shop at places I was going to shop at anyway. Any tactic to get me to return before I would have normally or to spend more money is manipulative in my view and I don't want to engage with that behavior.
I hope that didn't come off too aggressive. I've always gathered this was an unpopular opinion, but it's one I'm content with. Lol
You're not the only one, I also loathe loyalty programs beyond any simple flat discount, I value my data and shopping habit tracking data more than a percentage or two of money spent, much less jumping though hoops for it
I also realize I'm in a relative position of privilege and that lots of people really need that couple of percentage, so no shade to anyone using them to helping themselves get by a bit easier
To me it isn't about trying to get me to return before I normally would have but more of a "if I'm already here shopping and they want to give me something for it.."
Case in point: Years ago our local grocery store that I already shopped at had a reward card that earned points. You could spend the points on different things but one of those was rebates for gas. In the beginning, we'd save up our points for 6-8 months and use the points to fill up our tank twice on a trip for free. We'd pay $0 in gas for the whole trip. That lasted quite some time but eventually they capped the points to only getting you up to 35 cents off per gallon. That sucked comparatively but we just used our points when we thought about it and still got discounted gas. That unfortunately stopped and they do not offer gas discounts anymore but we still shop there. The only thing that promotion ever did was influence me to buy their store brand mac n cheese instead of a name brand since I'd get 4x points.
I barely changed what I was already doing and got back probably over $1500 in gas savings so why wouldn't I take advantage of offer?
That's cool, I'm glad there are people like you. I hope people like you can break the entire system down one day.
Me, I'll go where the milk and eggs are cheaper this week. Sell my data, sure. They all do and if it's worth $2 per yogurt, that's the best I can do for my family with a set amount of money.
I'm the US the shrinkflation is hitting everything and it's getting really noticable. Before your notice it but the change wasn't as dramatic as it's gotten over the last year or so. We were noticing it particularly in paper towels and toilet paper rolls
Good quality for prepared foods has taken a nose dive, I bought a frozen DiGiorno pizza that is noticeably smaller like 25% smaller than it was a year ago and they definitely added fillers to the crust. I used to really like the bacon Gouda sandwiches at Starbucks but those are also like 25% smaller and at a higher price.
This is a fascinating thread for me to read as an 'outsider'.
US loyalty programs - even now - are insanely generous by my standards!
Loyalty programs here in Australia have always been notoriously poor - where they have existed at all.
Recently, many more companies here have started loyalty programs, but the 'incentives' are laughable in most cases, and they are extremely transparent fronts for something no-one has mentioned yet - data harvesting.
Surely the whole point of most loyalty programs is not so much to retain customers, as to collect and track their data?
This, of course, is of significant monetary value to the company concerned, either directly or for on-selling purposes.
Yep, and it's probably easier to track data because people have a bigger incentive to pay with smartphone app or etc, so there's less of a need to have the loyalty program in the first place.