I can understand being afraid of infectious diseases. We will probably need to learn the hard way how to keep cultivated meat safe when it is grown outside of an immune system. But it seems clear...
I can understand being afraid of infectious diseases. We will probably need to learn the hard way how to keep cultivated meat safe when it is grown outside of an immune system. But it seems clear to me that this is just a matter of protectionism and a refusal to have any change to their food culture.
‘In defence of health, of the Italian production system, of thousands of jobs, of our culture and tradition, with the law approved today, Italy is the first nation in the world to be safe from the social and economic risks of synthetic food,’
...
The measure also prohibits the use of meat-related terms, like ‘salami’ or ‘steak’, for plant-based meat substitutes.
Personally I'm not a fan of petty cultural preservation like this. But I understand theirs is much more developed than ours in the States. Without a thousands of years old culture they put their tourism industry at risk.
Yes, imagine how their tourism industry would be endangered by losing the unique cultural heritage of...eating meat from cows. And it's great that Italian consumers will be insulated from the...
Yes, imagine how their tourism industry would be endangered by losing the unique cultural heritage of...eating meat from cows.
And it's great that Italian consumers will be insulated from the economic risks of affordable meat (not to mention the absolute societal collapse it would precipitate).
It's always about protectionism. I'm fine with that in controlled measures. I want my parmigiano reggiano or jamon or whatever to be "real" and not the stuff that plenty of Europeans think...
It's always about protectionism.
I'm fine with that in controlled measures.
I want my parmigiano reggiano or jamon or whatever to be "real" and not the stuff that plenty of Europeans think Americans consider fine food. (I'm thinking of Hershey's and green top sawdust parm. We purchase that at gas stations for children.)
The eu seems pretty well protected from the potential fraud that the article is claiming. The Heath risks are also ridiculous. Cultured meat is going to need its own "immune system" dumping antibiotics on it will not solve the problem.
To me this is equivalent to the dairy industry complaining that "you can't milk an almond" when the term milk has been used for any milky substance since it was unrecognizable in any of our mother tongues.
If it's not confusing or misleading, go right ahead.
I'm plenty in favor of cultured meat. I know it's going to be similar enough to wild vs farmed salmon, but I hope my grandchildren can see some of the world I saw.
I'm Italian. This is 100% a political decision to keep the electoral base happy. Nothing to do with anything else really. Italy have the strictest protocols for health and safety of imported...
I'm Italian. This is 100% a political decision to keep the electoral base happy.
Nothing to do with anything else really.
Italy have the strictest protocols for health and safety of imported products. The safety concern simply doesn't exists.
For the specific heritage, we already have some food and products that are DOC or DOP, you could simply extend it to some animals, enough to keep the heritage alive (and also could substantially raise the price for those protected meats) while allowing the vast majority of the population to have affordable meat.
The same stage have been adopted for insect based food not too long ago.
When you have conservative fascists in power in 2023, this is the outcome you have to expect in terms of decisions.
Doesn't half of Italy can't afford to have meat to begin with? Specifically from the Southern part of Italy, like Naples and Sicily. Because their economic structures are never the same, even when...
Doesn't half of Italy can't afford to have meat to begin with? Specifically from the Southern part of Italy, like Naples and Sicily. Because their economic structures are never the same, even when they had united during the 1800s, South more agriculture and fishing, while the North had always been more banking and Industrial. Or is that just old information and things changed? If not this would, I would imagine, that Southern Italy is going to be effected more by this than the North, and the Italian Conservatives always hate the South, if my limited amount of time on Italian history and politics taught me anything.
Italian here also, from south-east (Puglia - the "heel of the boot"). Yes, we can afford meat, although traditionally it's always been a relatively smaller part of our diet compared to the North...
Doesn't half of Italy can't afford to have meat to begin with?
Italian here also, from south-east (Puglia - the "heel of the boot"). Yes, we can afford meat, although traditionally it's always been a relatively smaller part of our diet compared to the North (generalising, of course).
Or is that just old information and things changed?
Things have changed since 2 centuries ago. The south economical landscape consists mostly of SMEs, tourism and low-innovation industry, while focussed agriculture areas e.g. olive oil still remain relevant.
the Italian Conservatives always hate the South
It's a manifest staple by a specific area/party (the so-called League, previously Northern League and before that League of Lombardy). The other two parties representing conservatives in the Parliament have instead a strong foothold in the Southern regions. You'd be surprised how many people here voted for them in the last few elections.
I can kind of understand this when it comes to terms strongly associated with specific traditional products, or a specific way of making things. If you can't have parmigiano from the netherlands,...
I can kind of understand this when it comes to terms strongly associated with specific traditional products, or a specific way of making things. If you can't have parmigiano from the netherlands, then you can't have salami from soy. That makes some sense to me. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. Preventing misled customers should also be a given; can't have a person with a soy allergy grab some hamburgers that they (reasonably) think is just beef, salt and pepper, and eat a lethal dose of soy protein.
But the blanket bans on all even slightly related names is silly protectionism IMO. Particularly since, depending on the language and the product, you already have traditional silly "animal-product" names, even for nonfood items. Scouring agents (i.e. the cleaning product) are called "abrasive milk" in german, and I have yet heard of no case where someone poured it in their coffee. And they're telling me people can't figure out that almond milk is not cow's milk?
Now you’ve got me thinking about how cocoa butter isn’t just cocoa cream skimmed off the top of a bucket of cocoa milk from a cocoa cow and churned… but it’s a delightful thought regardless! :D
Now you’ve got me thinking about how cocoa butter isn’t just cocoa cream skimmed off the top of a bucket of cocoa milk from a cocoa cow and churned… but it’s a delightful thought regardless! :D
Does it matter if Italy bans cultivated meat? Unless the ban is broader than just Italy, then Italian consumers will have fewer opportunities to eat meat and the meat they can access will be more...
Does it matter if Italy bans cultivated meat? Unless the ban is broader than just Italy, then Italian consumers will have fewer opportunities to eat meat and the meat they can access will be more expensive. They could absolutely develop a cultural preference for the "real thing", and more power to them, I suppose. They're engaging in protectionism to defend an industry of interest to the state, and that's fine. We'll see whether holding that position is valuable to them in the long term. But if it's enough cheaper than meat raised in traditional ways there will absolutely be meat smugglers bringing in meat with disguised provenance.
Well kind of, yes, if cultivated meat also ends up having a lower impact on the environment which we all share. As a non-vegan, that’s the main benefit I see to cultivated meat (besides my mild...
Does it matter if Italy bans cultivated meat?
Well kind of, yes, if cultivated meat also ends up having a lower impact on the environment which we all share. As a non-vegan, that’s the main benefit I see to cultivated meat (besides my mild interest in being able to eat ultra-exotic meats without risking extinction or cannibalism), but it’s an important benefit when some 60% of all food-industry CO2 comes from meat production.
Sure. Italy is 25th in population and 28th in meat eaten, so it's not like they're tiny, but plenty of countries have polluting industries. If we have a global agreement on countries reducing...
Sure. Italy is 25th in population and 28th in meat eaten, so it's not like they're tiny, but plenty of countries have polluting industries. If we have a global agreement on countries reducing their environmental impact and Italy cares more about preserving their cattle than about other sources of pollution, let them have real meat as their priority. But I really do think that the economic difference between cultivated meat and butchered meat will overwhelm their stance in the long term.
Most of the problems with eating human flesh are the same problems that animal rights activists see with eating other meat: cruelty or other abuses in the sourcing of the meat, and potential...
Most of the problems with eating human flesh are the same problems that animal rights activists see with eating other meat: cruelty or other abuses in the sourcing of the meat, and potential health consequences from eating it. If the human flesh is grown from cells in a lab and is free from disease, what's the specific concern you have aside from your own disgust response?
I mean, I should emphasize that it’s a mild interest. No need to call the FBI. I do not want to murder anyone, hence the, again, mild interest in cultured meat. I guess I just love food, and I’d...
I mean, I should emphasize that it’s a mild interest. No need to call the FBI. I do not want to murder anyone, hence the, again, mild interest in cultured meat.
I guess I just love food, and I’d be curious to taste everything. Same as I would like to eat dinosaurs, or aliens (even though being biocompatible is so unlikely).
Very unlikely for now. First because cultivated meat isn't a very hot topic right now, but even if it was, there's no way they would make a law expressly forcing member states to adopt cultivated...
Very unlikely for now. First because cultivated meat isn't a very hot topic right now, but even if it was, there's no way they would make a law expressly forcing member states to adopt cultivated meat, or any food for that matter. It would go against all their frameworks and jeopardize trust in European institutions.
The way food works in the EU is that they have a white-list of legal food products and member states can accept all or some of the foods from it (but not add to it without permission). I don't see that changing unless there's some crisis that comes from it.
They could impose sanctions though, if they see it as big enough issue.
Even GMO bananas have trouble passing through EU food regulations, and they could easily* make fungus-proof Gros Michel. If I understand correctly EU is a major blocker in developing TR4-resistant...
Even GMO bananas have trouble passing through EU food regulations, and they could easily* make fungus-proof Gros Michel. If I understand correctly EU is a major blocker in developing TR4-resistant clones because they'd need a market and EU is the biggest consumer.
I struggle to imagine the hoops for cultivated meat.
Based on what the EU is doing in other parts of the food market, I could imagine them legislating for/against making legal such names as "almond milk" or "Vegan chicken", which (see other comment...
Based on what the EU is doing in other parts of the food market, I could imagine them legislating for/against making legal such names as "almond milk" or "Vegan chicken", which (see other comment branch) was also part of this Italian effort. I think that's a thing the EU could legislate, seeing how they're the ones who did the whole geographic origins thing. Maybe Mutton, pardon, @Sheep knows more.
As usual, incumbent businesses use their political sway to block their replacements.
The free market for thee, but not for me.
I can understand being afraid of infectious diseases. We will probably need to learn the hard way how to keep cultivated meat safe when it is grown outside of an immune system. But it seems clear to me that this is just a matter of protectionism and a refusal to have any change to their food culture.
...
Personally I'm not a fan of petty cultural preservation like this. But I understand theirs is much more developed than ours in the States. Without a thousands of years old culture they put their tourism industry at risk.
Yes, imagine how their tourism industry would be endangered by losing the unique cultural heritage of...eating meat from cows.
And it's great that Italian consumers will be insulated from the economic risks of affordable meat (not to mention the absolute societal collapse it would precipitate).
As others have pointed out this could be mostly about keeping current institutions wealthy. I was trying to offer one more possibility.
Yeah my point was that your quotes seem very half-hearted in hiding the true purpose of the law.
It's always about protectionism.
I'm fine with that in controlled measures.
I want my parmigiano reggiano or jamon or whatever to be "real" and not the stuff that plenty of Europeans think Americans consider fine food. (I'm thinking of Hershey's and green top sawdust parm. We purchase that at gas stations for children.)
The eu seems pretty well protected from the potential fraud that the article is claiming. The Heath risks are also ridiculous. Cultured meat is going to need its own "immune system" dumping antibiotics on it will not solve the problem.
To me this is equivalent to the dairy industry complaining that "you can't milk an almond" when the term milk has been used for any milky substance since it was unrecognizable in any of our mother tongues.
If it's not confusing or misleading, go right ahead.
I'm plenty in favor of cultured meat. I know it's going to be similar enough to wild vs farmed salmon, but I hope my grandchildren can see some of the world I saw.
I'm Italian. This is 100% a political decision to keep the electoral base happy.
Nothing to do with anything else really.
Italy have the strictest protocols for health and safety of imported products. The safety concern simply doesn't exists.
For the specific heritage, we already have some food and products that are DOC or DOP, you could simply extend it to some animals, enough to keep the heritage alive (and also could substantially raise the price for those protected meats) while allowing the vast majority of the population to have affordable meat.
The same stage have been adopted for insect based food not too long ago.
When you have conservative fascists in power in 2023, this is the outcome you have to expect in terms of decisions.
Doesn't half of Italy can't afford to have meat to begin with? Specifically from the Southern part of Italy, like Naples and Sicily. Because their economic structures are never the same, even when they had united during the 1800s, South more agriculture and fishing, while the North had always been more banking and Industrial. Or is that just old information and things changed? If not this would, I would imagine, that Southern Italy is going to be effected more by this than the North, and the Italian Conservatives always hate the South, if my limited amount of time on Italian history and politics taught me anything.
Italian here also, from south-east (Puglia - the "heel of the boot"). Yes, we can afford meat, although traditionally it's always been a relatively smaller part of our diet compared to the North (generalising, of course).
Things have changed since 2 centuries ago. The south economical landscape consists mostly of SMEs, tourism and low-innovation industry, while focussed agriculture areas e.g. olive oil still remain relevant.
It's a manifest staple by a specific area/party (the so-called League, previously Northern League and before that League of Lombardy). The other two parties representing conservatives in the Parliament have instead a strong foothold in the Southern regions. You'd be surprised how many people here voted for them in the last few elections.
Hope this helps!
Yeah that does. Thanks.
I can kind of understand this when it comes to terms strongly associated with specific traditional products, or a specific way of making things. If you can't have parmigiano from the netherlands, then you can't have salami from soy. That makes some sense to me. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. Preventing misled customers should also be a given; can't have a person with a soy allergy grab some hamburgers that they (reasonably) think is just beef, salt and pepper, and eat a lethal dose of soy protein.
But the blanket bans on all even slightly related names is silly protectionism IMO. Particularly since, depending on the language and the product, you already have traditional silly "animal-product" names, even for nonfood items. Scouring agents (i.e. the cleaning product) are called "abrasive milk" in german, and I have yet heard of no case where someone poured it in their coffee. And they're telling me people can't figure out that almond milk is not cow's milk?
To be fair to their hypothetical idiot, chocolate milk doesn't come from a chocolate.
Now you’ve got me thinking about how cocoa butter isn’t just cocoa cream skimmed off the top of a bucket of cocoa milk from a cocoa cow and churned… but it’s a delightful thought regardless! :D
I now want to get some non-homogenized milk, dump a bunch of chocolate syrup into it, shake that shit up, and see what happens.
The PM is literally a fascist. Petty cultural preservation is pretty much her prime directive.
Not entirely surprising. I’m just surprised France didn’t do it first.
Does it matter if Italy bans cultivated meat? Unless the ban is broader than just Italy, then Italian consumers will have fewer opportunities to eat meat and the meat they can access will be more expensive. They could absolutely develop a cultural preference for the "real thing", and more power to them, I suppose. They're engaging in protectionism to defend an industry of interest to the state, and that's fine. We'll see whether holding that position is valuable to them in the long term. But if it's enough cheaper than meat raised in traditional ways there will absolutely be meat smugglers bringing in meat with disguised provenance.
Well kind of, yes, if cultivated meat also ends up having a lower impact on the environment which we all share. As a non-vegan, that’s the main benefit I see to cultivated meat (besides my mild interest in being able to eat ultra-exotic meats without risking extinction or cannibalism), but it’s an important benefit when some 60% of all food-industry CO2 comes from meat production.
Sure. Italy is 25th in population and 28th in meat eaten, so it's not like they're tiny, but plenty of countries have polluting industries. If we have a global agreement on countries reducing their environmental impact and Italy cares more about preserving their cattle than about other sources of pollution, let them have real meat as their priority. But I really do think that the economic difference between cultivated meat and butchered meat will overwhelm their stance in the long term.
Most of the problems with eating human flesh are the same problems that animal rights activists see with eating other meat: cruelty or other abuses in the sourcing of the meat, and potential health consequences from eating it. If the human flesh is grown from cells in a lab and is free from disease, what's the specific concern you have aside from your own disgust response?
I mean, I should emphasize that it’s a mild interest. No need to call the FBI. I do not want to murder anyone, hence the, again, mild interest in cultured meat.
I guess I just love food, and I’d be curious to taste everything. Same as I would like to eat dinosaurs, or aliens (even though being biocompatible is so unlikely).
Can I ask why you are so against the idea?
Does anyone more familiar think the EU will create a law that supercedes the Italian law?
Very unlikely for now. First because cultivated meat isn't a very hot topic right now, but even if it was, there's no way they would make a law expressly forcing member states to adopt cultivated meat, or any food for that matter. It would go against all their frameworks and jeopardize trust in European institutions.
The way food works in the EU is that they have a white-list of legal food products and member states can accept all or some of the foods from it (but not add to it without permission). I don't see that changing unless there's some crisis that comes from it.
They could impose sanctions though, if they see it as big enough issue.
Thanks for the insight! I have some grasp of EU legislation, but not this.
Even GMO bananas have trouble passing through EU food regulations, and they could easily* make fungus-proof Gros Michel. If I understand correctly EU is a major blocker in developing TR4-resistant clones because they'd need a market and EU is the biggest consumer.
I struggle to imagine the hoops for cultivated meat.
*fungus resistant Gros Michel
Based on what the EU is doing in other parts of the food market, I could imagine them legislating for/against making legal such names as "almond milk" or "Vegan chicken", which (see other comment branch) was also part of this Italian effort. I think that's a thing the EU could legislate, seeing how they're the ones who did the whole geographic origins thing. Maybe
Mutton, pardon, @Sheep knows more.