Thoughts on romance in video game RPGs (no major spoilers)
What are your thoughts on romance in RPGs? I'm using the word "romance" here because it's usually what the topic is called. But I think it's too specific and has unwanted connotations with cheeziness. I would prefer the term "attraction", which can also refer to more challenging relationships that might not include sex or even happy endings.
The recent news that Starfield will only feature 4 romance options has fans debating, and before Starfield it was Cyberpunk, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Skyrim, etc. Each of these games took a slightly different approach to romance and each had their fans and critics. On the one hand, the Witcher 3 had a defined player-character and very few romance options, but the writing was excellent and the romances fairly believable. And then there was Skyrim, where you created your own character and had lots of romance options, but all you needed to do was a fetch quest for your belle/beau and then give them a necklace before living a happily married life of fighting bandits, adopting children and saying the same things to each other ad nauseam every day for eternity. But even Skyrim's romance had a certain charm to it. At least you got to live with your partner, build a house, have a family and go hunting together...
I fully understand the viewpoint that gamers would rather have fewer options if they are deep than more numerous janky options. We're yet to see what Starfield's execution will be like, but even if they have done a good job with it, I can't help feeling a little disappointed that there are so few options in such a massive game. I fully understand how difficult it would be to have more options and still make the romances compelling, but I think this should be strived for, rather than just given up as too hard.
Of all the big entertainment media (movies, TV, books, etc.), games are understandably way behind when it comes to romance. It's either rarely implemented or implemented poorly because technically it is very difficult. Yet it's often a major part of storytelling and virtually omnipresent in other media. Sometimes it's the main story; other times it's a side story within the main one. But it's quite rare for it never to feature at all in mass entertainment media. Of course, it's often shoehorned in because it's what the viewers/readers want and expect, but you can also argue that attraction to someone else is just a fundamental human emotion and maybe even unavoidable, especially in an epic or heroic scenario like an RPG. I'm sure someone with professional experience in this field could probably speak more to this point, but I'm thinking here of those intense emotional feelings you get from stressful situations, which could lead to crushes and attraction for those in the same situation, or to rescuers and caregivers (Nightingale syndrome), or even to abductors (Stockholm syndrome) and the opposite (Lima syndrome).
And the fact that it's a fundamental human trait that plays such a major role in our lives (for better or worse) is why I think gaming companies should not ignore romance and should strive to create truly compelling attraction stories. It's an area ripe for innovation and could really make a game stand out from the rest. It's time to move on from the stereotype that gaming is for teenage boys and all they want is to shoot things and maybe have sex with big-titted avatars. Gaming is now for everyone, for all ages and for all sexualities (including asexuals), and I'm sure there's a market for mature stories to reflect what drives many people's decisions and behaviours.
The RPG genre in particular seems to be the best fit for romance (outside of dating sims, which I know nothing about). The beauty of role-playing is that you get to be who you want to be, which includes exploring attraction and your sexuality. It's incredibly challenging and maybe even impossible to create a game that would please everyone, but I certainly don't think the idea of compelling attraction gameplay should be given up because previous attempts have felt so inauthentic.
Going back to Starfield, I'm really excited to go out exploring the stars, fighting space pirates, upgrading my ship, and acquiring cool abilities. I love all these things about RPGs. But I'm also a sucker for a great story and experiencing a genuine human journey. For me, this includes relationships, both platonic and sexual, because it would be unavoidable when spending so much time with people on my ship, and exploring the galaxy. The importance of attraction in games will vary between gamers, but as other mass entertainment media has shown us, it's massively popular when done well, probably because it speaks to something so fundamental within us as humans.
These are just some of my musings and ramblings. What are your thoughts?
- Is it a waste of dev time and resources because it's too hard to do well?
- Is it an aspect you particularly enjoy or hate in RPGs?
- Which game did it best?
- What would you like to see in RPGs of the future with AI possibly being used?
A bit of a sideline but I had a first “waking up” experience with romance in The Sims (which is not really an RPG but almost kinda?) I was around 10 and playing the first original edition. I created two women characters and meticulously kept notes on their interactions, and to my surprise and excitement I got them to fall in love and kiss. It was a whole new world to me and really opened new vistas to what is possible. I wasn’t aware that I was gay at the time but it really helped shape and widen my view of what romance could be. I’m really thankful Maxis didn’t limit the possible outcomes to only heterosexual romantic interactions, especially since this was in the 90s early 00s.
I don't do romance IRL, and I tend to view these romances through the lens of the broader term of 'relationships', ie romances, friendships, hookups, etc. And despite my interest IRL, I have enjoyed experiencing the relationships in some games - mostly because my character is not really an extension of me (though I'll admit they always have some shades), but an entirely different person, so it's fun seeing what type they're attracted to and how they flirt. Having said that, I've only run across a few games where it was worth doing. And right off the bat I'll say, I don't think I can pick a favorite. They all have their own good points.
Stardew Valley has a pretty wide variety of romanceable (romancable? romance-able?) character options, but they're all pretty surface level. If I go the romance route, 99% of the time I end up picking Leah because she's likeable from the start, and easy to romance (salad! salad! salad! salad!)
Dragon Age: Origins was fun because the characters have some variety. At first I thought Alistair was going to be the romantic interest, but he very quickly annoyed the shit out of my character and she ended up switching over to Zevran. He had a sense of humor, he was very up front about discussing what form the relationship would take - open, closed, etc, but he could still be serious when the situation called for it. He was perfect for her because she was fighting a war and, while she didn't 'need' an intimate relationship with anyone, if she was going to have one then her best match was a partner and friend first - someone who would fight with her in both senses of the word, both beside her but also with her if he felt she was wrong.
In Outer Worlds - yes, I know, there are no romance options, what am I bringing it up for?? Just hang in with me here. I was a little disappointed in not having any options because the characters were quite likeable and, as you said - small ship! It's a little weird that nobody hooks up - so much so that I just made it head canon that after I go to sleep at night, someone is definitely sneaking into someone else's room and they're just really good at hiding their 'arrangement' from the rest of the crew. In the end, though, the only character my character would have been interested in was Parvati. She, however, clearly had eyes for someone else, and honestly it was just as fun helping her hook up with someone else! I would love to see more of that in games - not like, manipulating two people into getting together, but just being a BFF yelling "GO FOR IT, GIRL, SHE'S INTO YOU!" I mean, that bit with Junlei's poetry... whoever wrote those characters really did a fantastic job.
What I most like to see is 1) effort put into the characters and 2) a lot of representation. I was happy to see same sex relationships in DA:O and SV. I was happy to find out that Parvati is ace. I like that there are modders out there for the games that accept mods who continue to add more options and to give more people the opportunity to see themselves in the characters they play, and the characters they interact with.
In general, I don't think relationships are necessary to any sort of game other than, you know, romance games! On the other hand, before I'd played the above games, I would have confidently said I don't want or need romances in the games I play. Now, having experienced them, I do think they can be a fantastic opportunity to add a lot of emotional depth and engagement to the game. I also think they can add a lot more depth to your own character. In engaging with first Alistair and then Zevran, I discovered a lot of things about my character's... well, character!, and what sort of person she was, and how she interacted with others. It better informed my decisions as I played, and as I mentioned in another discussion about games, by the time I got to the end, I cried at the end because I'd become so attached to her, but also so familiar with her that I could never have chosen another ending without feeling much worse. Side note, one of my favorite things about that experience was that I've often seen writers complaining that characters won't do what they want them to do, and - being a great lover of reading - to experience some of that myself was very special to me.
If it is added as an option, there's definitely room for a variety of effort. SV's shallow relationships don't change that it's an excellent game. But I return to SV looking forward to building up my farm and by extension the town, and sometimes I'll pick a romance because it's easy. The characters in DA:O and OW are far more 'real' in my mind because of the extra time and care put into them. I return to those games because I love working with my team - whether I'm in an active romance with any one of them or not, the slow nurturing of a camaraderie between members makes for a great and memorable game. If DA:O didn't offer romances or OW didn't offer Parvati's crush, I'd still like my team and want to play the games again. But they do, and I love both games the more for them being there, and I do absolutely always pick those two to focus on.
And I can tell you immediately what I would like to see in future RPGs, is FULL TEAMS!! Giving me a group of funny, bickering, difficult, caring, passionate, dumb as rocks team members and then saying "pick 2" is FRUSTRATING! I've always assumed it was probably related to computing power, but it would be delightful to see those limits lifted so that I can ACTUALLY recruit people to fight, rather than have 6 people following us around and waiting in camp while I and the other 2 go out and get shit done.
Yes, full teams would be really fun, and/or just larger teams to be able to pick from if you have to.
Regarding your point about relationships not being necessary in any game other than romance games, I would say that a series like Mass Effect or Dragon Age would not be half as interesting if it weren't for the relationships/romance. There are definitely games where it's not very important, but I feel it is necessary in some games for them to be believable. This would apply to space opera games and lots of fantasy games.
I think it worked great for The witcher because the source material is pretty much romance books with magic and monsters. I remember how I felt attracted to the characters not because they were naked but because they had such a connection and the dialogue was deep and the relationships between everyone felt deep and real. I fell in love with Triss (haven't read the source material and couldn't stand yennefer of the game) and was a bit into Morgan. I kind of felt bad for cheating on my love. It was real and a core part of the story which made the game as fantastic as it was.
I couldn't care less about a love interest in Skyrim and never explored that option, as the game was about me, the dragonborn slaying dragons and saving the world.
Same for Cyberpunk, the only character that I had some kind of relationship to died in the first hour and it wasn't even deep or emotional enough to make me stop playing and think for a second. There's no history between characters and none is written deep enough that I could evolve any feelings to them, so any relationship would just be sex, and I don't care about virtual sex with pixels, nö matter how good they look. It's the same as if you would talking about a relationship to a porn star you saw in a random video.
So Starfield having four "options" tells me everything I need to know, it won't be about feelings and they will never manage to transport such a deep connection between the characters that I would ever care about any deeper relationship between them.
If Triss died in the Witcher my heart would be broken and I don't think I could finish the game after that moment. I doubt any game that isn't written around those interests and deep connection between characters will ever be able to achieve what the witcher did, and it's just implemented to pleases some horny teenagers or lost adults.
I was also really connected to Triss in the Witcher. What I particularly loved about that arc is that it started in the first game. Then in the second game, she was my main companion and love interest. Being able to continue that in the Witcher 3 just felt so much more natural and meaningful than pursuing Yennefer, even if that was more lore faithful.
Similarly, I really enjoyed being able to resume relationships in the Mass Effect series. I did one playthrough with Ashley and another with LIara. Both felt different but equally rewarding. I think my favourite was with Ashley because we had a falling out in ME2 but then resumed everything in ME3. And after the battle in London, it was truly stressful to be fighting alongside her and then packing her off in a ship to safety.
I really enjoy the romances in Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Particularly Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition. One of my favourite parts of those was how party members could actually hook up with each other, if I didn't hook up with them.
I particularly love DA2s romance system because the characters are pretty interesting, and the three act structure of that game really gives some nice progression on it. And I love how other party members will comment on it. There's even banter for pretty specific situations! Like if you let Fenris break up with you and pursue Anders after Act 2 (I think it's Act 2) you can hear Fenris and Anders talking about it sometimes in banter. Just really cool. I think even the DLC, Legacy, had specific dialogue depending on when you do it and your current status with a romantic partner. That's the kind of thing I absolutely love, I love it when you get additional dialogue and stuff, it really makes it feel more developed and real.
Also loved how in DA2 they changed up the 'get approval to make them like you' usual fare and instead had a rival/friendly romance system, where the romance and attraction could still happen even if you didn't just make choices the character liked, but it was different and more tense if it was rival focused. DA2 is kind of a mess but it's romance system totally saves it for me, they just did a lot of cool stuff with it.
Exactly, and it's what gives me hope that a dev will one day blow everything else out of the water with amazing and believable romance. I think old Bioware were the best at it for sure. Both Dragon Age and Mass Effect made you care deeply for the characters and believe their relationships. I'm sure we'll look back at those games in 20 years and think how basic the romance system was (if not already), but they have shown that just adding in fun details like you mentioned is all it takes to increase immersion.
For me Mass Effect has done it better than DA, simply because you could continue relationships over the trilogy, whereas it's all different characters in DA. I was disappointed that you couldn't romance Leliana in Inquisition, but there again, the player-character is different, so maybe that made sense.
I love Mass Effect, but I replay DA way more often, so I don't quite remember if they had the same 'additional dialogue for romances' or 'additional party banter if you're romancing certain characters.' I do always romance Garrus tho, he is the absolute best (it is maddening how you can't romance him in ME1. Drives me insane haha) and yeah it is cool you can transfer it between games.
But yeah that additional complexity to the point of characters even remarking if you broke up with them and hooked up with someone else was what I really loved about DA2. IDK if we'll get something like that again tho. A lot of people think complex romantic systems should just stay in romance focused games but honestly I completely disagree, I think having a big sci fi or fantasy or whatever epic with romantic options should affect other characters and dialogue in main and side stories, at least a little.
I completely agree.
Honestly, my favorite was Saints Row 4. The entire romance subplot consisted of:
"Hey Kinzie, y'wanna fuck?"
Haha, yeah. SR4 was the first one I played and I remember being quite surprised and laughing when that line just popped up. Of course, it totally fits with what the game was trying to achieve. And even if it was somewhat of a parody and ridiculous, I still appreciated that aspect. I'm all for story, romance and slow-burn relationships, but just brutal honesty and a meaningless quickie is also just another side of human "romance".
Here's my take on this. In RPG games, there're 2 kinds I think, the "WRPG Type" with a lot of options, and the "JRPG Type" which is more streamlined and guided, with less options, there're some options/choices, but usually not many or none at all.
In Witcher 3, there're only 2 options and there're no "Affection Points" or things like that, it's just basically choose the correct options, which made it more streamlined and guided, so it feels richer.
JRPGs did it differently most of the time, but usually the romance is built into the main story, so it's a more crafted storyline, sometimes you get married in the middle of the story.
Final Fantasy 8's romance is a central plot to the main story, FF X have a great romance plot too. In JRPGs, you watch how their story/romance develops instead of actively taking part in it.
I like romance plots that are integrated to the storyline, so I do prefer JRPGs romance plots, while not too important to the main plot, witcher 3 is good, it just fit perfectly in between the main plot.
Not a "normal" romance storyline, and not a JRPG, but I like Yakuza 0 Majima's story. Not gonna spoil anything, if you haven't played it, I suggest doing so, it's just great.
It'll be fun to see janky AI responses, but most of the time, I prefer my game to be a well crafted experience. Most likely I won't buy it.
JRPGs romance plots usually aren't as well laid out as the WRPGs counterparts, it's more subtle, not much flirting and lovey-dovey conversations going on, and I like them. If you wanna try some, on top of my head, I suggest Final Fantasy 8 or 10 and maybe Shadow Hearts.
And also I'd like to mention the VIsual Novels, they're basically a choose your own adventure novel, so the romance stories are great there, but most of them are just romance, no other stuff going on, and there're less "gameplay" going on.
It's actually one of my unfinished games I'm hoping to get back to one day. I got about half way through it and stopped for some reason. The only romantic elements I remember at the point I got to was flirting with the girl in the bowling alley, but I think that was Kiryu.
I honestly wouldn't call it romantic element, it's more of a love story because it is in the main story.
My first experience with “romance” in a game was Police Quest 1, when I stumbled into the concept because I let the lady in the sports car off of her ticket. It was the first time I also remember reading the word, “torrid”. I was a kid.
The last one was in Cyberpunk inside a tank.
I find romance plot lines hollow because they don’t have any meaningful follow up after the climax encounter, and as OP states they are seem more geared towards teenaged titillation of said climactic act itself.
In fact, in CP if I try to call them I just get a, “Oh hey, glad to hear from you; hope you’re swell,” and it leaves me feeling like a damp, soggy pickle.
I would be interested to seeing a dynamic where you can get so “invested” in a character that you are forced to make actual endgame altering decisions. Like, “You’re right. I’m not gonna go on that suicide boss mission to save the universe because I’d rather be with you.” And that’s an acceptable ending, even if it’s only halfway through.
I think one game in recent memory does this (if you know you know) but it’s not a choice, more of how the story unravels. And it’s not “romance” but the motivations are the same.
Xenogears has a wonderful romance subplot. Star Ocean 2 as well.
They're probably my two favorite jrpgs of all time.
I've never played any jRPGs. Does Final Fantasy have good romance/relationship stories? Sounds like it might be the kind of game that does.
Depends on the game. VII definitely with the Aerith/tifa/cloud triangle.
X has Yuna and Tidus. While they do have some campy voice acting it's still enjoyable to me.
How about Persona 4? There are a lot of RPGs that basically have a dating sim attached.
If you want pure pre-Oedipal fantasy (plenty of that in Japanese media) I’d call out Fate Extra and Fate Extella
I loved all the characters in Persona 4, but I'm very mixed on how some of the romances develop.
While the protagonist is clearly a Chad, the decision points that lead to romance feel very strange from my Western perspective. For example, the difference between romancing Rise and being friends is just whether or not you hug her when she's crying. In my opinion, the most natural romance would be with Yosuke, but unfortunately that was cut (though the dialogue is still in the game files and has been modded back in).
For what it's worth, hugging is something that's more intimate in Japan than in the West. I wish that there was an option beyond "stand there and stare", but I don't think it's unrealistic.
Saying no to Yuki messes me up every time. And saying no to Haru in P5 is awful.
Not sure it falls into the RPG category, but I love the romance/love interest in Horizon. Won't say more specifically to avoid spoilers, but that portion of the game warmed my heart and I have replayed the love story developing several times now. As a father of daughters it is lovely to see a strong female character find someone.
Also father of daughters and yes I agree
In my lanky, awkward and horny teenage years a game having romanceable companions would've been enough to sell it to me. I've become a Bioware junkie for that reason, although I stayed for different ones.
Nowadays, whenever I see a developer say something "and you can romance most of your companions", like they did with recent BG3 announcement, I just sigh. It usually means "you can flirt a little, talk about feeling around campfire/keep/base/spaceship, watch a sex scene and get a written epilogue if you're lucky". The progression is identical, the way party members open up is identical, they will come to you to shag dramatically at equal points in the story, saying something like "we might not survive tomorrow, so let's do the sex scene today, that's narratively convenient". It's very... gamey. It doesn't feel like a real relationship, and, because it's always optional, it can't really affect the story in any significant way. It's a subplot. It's variety over depth, quantity over quality. It also doesn't help that, despite RPGs being one of the more story and text heavy genres, most of them aren't actually written that well. Or they are written well for some parts and not that well for others.
I think the problem also stems from the WRPGs desire to have as many companions as possible, which was inherited from the days then companions were a portrait, stat list and a few dialogue lines. It's just unmanageable for any single game to have ten companions with equal work put into, with relevance to the story, with dynamics between them and with the main character. You know who I consider the best companion in all the RPGs I played?
Kim Kitsuragi. Because he's an amazing character and was masterfully written, but also - because he's important. He's a counterbalance for the detective, he's a support, a helper, a quest giver, a direction setter, and sometimes - an obstacle. The game wouldn't play even closely the same without Kim, and that affects my relationship with him as a player, and as a character, and it's only possible because the developers knew they can only put such care into one companion, and they stopped there. He's alone, but he's also enough.
tl;dr: I don't care if there's a romance in the game, what I care about are interpersonal relationships and overall story, and devs should stop adding romances just to mark the checkbox. And if they do they should let me romance actually cool characters, like Khem Val from SWTOR.