Good. Now to get rid of the rest. When vaping first came on the scene, I thought that it was actually a pretty neat idea because it was a neat way to get rid of the oral fixation part that was...
Good. Now to get rid of the rest.
When vaping first came on the scene, I thought that it was actually a pretty neat idea because it was a neat way to get rid of the oral fixation part that was common with smoking addiction. The fluids were interesting flavors that if you got a whiff of them it would actually be somewhat pleasant, at least when compared to the smell of second hand smoke.
Then they started putting nicotine into them and all the ones that didn't have it seemed to instantly disappear. And unlike those earlier ones, these ones were sold at mainstream drug and convenience stores, which was a big part of the reason why teens started getting their hands on them.
The fact that they put nicotine into these in the first place just strikes me as an unquestionably evil act. There's literally only one reason to add nicotine to any product, and that is to make it addictive. The fact that they put it through this new process, one with which we had no understanding about the potential health risks, makes it all that much worse. The simple fact is that nicotine is an addictive drug, and people who sell it are drug dealers and pushers. They can say "it's so much better than cigarettes" all they want but at the end of the day they are still profiting off of human misery.
Raises hand. That's my experience with them. I had been smoking cigarettes since I was about 14 years old, and smoked them for over 20 years. I had tried to quit using the gum, patch, and various...
Raises hand. That's my experience with them. I had been smoking cigarettes since I was about 14 years old, and smoked them for over 20 years. I had tried to quit using the gum, patch, and various other methods (like hypnosis) countless times over the years, but none of them were sufficient alone, or even in concert, and so I always inevitable went back to smoking cigs once my cravings got unbearable after a week or so.
Vapes changed all of that though, and I was finally able to "quit" a few years ago thanks to them. I say "quit" because I still vape, but at least it's a hell of a lot better for my health than smoking cigarettes, and it has also allowed me to slowly ween myself off nicotine in the process. I'm currently using 3 & 6 mg nicotine e-juices down from 12, 16 & 20mg ones when I first started. And pretty soon I should hopefully be able to switch to 1.5mg ones, eventually going nicotine free, and then try to break the ritualistic and oral fixation aspects of the habit after that... hopefully permanently this time!
So @Akir, please understand that this isn't such a cut and dry issue as you make it out to be, and if the government completely removed vaping e-juice with nicotene as an option, many of us who are still trying to quit smoking will very likely be driven back to smoking cigarettes instead, which is way worse for our health.
What if nicotine is removed from vapes, but can be added via a prescription from a doctor? This could make it harder for teens to get access to it, but it could still be used by smokers to help...
What if nicotine is removed from vapes, but can be added via a prescription from a doctor? This could make it harder for teens to get access to it, but it could still be used by smokers to help quit.
Obviously, with our healthcare system, this isn't perfect. It would need to be something that could be prescribed via free clinics and the cost should be very minimal.
Nothing is perfect, but sometimes increasing the barrier to entry is enough to keep some people from getting addicted in the first place.
Doing that while tobacco products themselves are still sold at retailers and only behind an age restriction makes absolutely no sense to me. And personally, if I had had to go see my doctor every...
Doing that while tobacco products themselves are still sold at retailers and only behind an age restriction makes absolutely no sense to me. And personally, if I had had to go see my doctor every month for the last 2 years to constantly renew a nicotine prescription while I was attempting to slowly ween myself off it via vaping, that likely would have caused me to give up and go back to smoking cigs again.
Barriers work both ways, unfortunately. Forcing nicotine for vapes to be prescribed may help prevent teens from getting newly addicted, but it would also likely greatly reduce the odds of vaping helping people quit smoking cigarettes as well.
Instead, couldn’t just forcing nicotine to be sold separately from the flavoured ejuice, without requiring a prescription but from a totally separate and more heavily regulated retailer (like over-the-counter at a pharmacy, similar to how nicotine gum and patches are sold), be a nice middle ground though? That should still be an effective barrier for teens, but not one that will completely discourage cigarette smokers from acquiring it while they attempt to quit.
I feel your pain. I take psych meds and by law I have to see my doctor at least once every 3 months. Which, to be honest, is generally quite sensible, but also a pain in the ass.
I feel your pain. I take psych meds and by law I have to see my doctor at least once every 3 months. Which, to be honest, is generally quite sensible, but also a pain in the ass.
I’m actually not sure what the laws about prescription renewal lengths are here in Canada. Every prescription I have ever had has only been 30 days before requiring another doctor/psychiatrist...
I’m actually not sure what the laws about prescription renewal lengths are here in Canada. Every prescription I have ever had has only been 30 days before requiring another doctor/psychiatrist visit in order to renew it though, with the only exception to that being if I was travelling for an extended period.
@Whom this is what I had in mind. You don’t need absolute control over it to stop it from becoming a problem, you just need the simplest barriers to prevent the most vulnerable from falling into...
@Whom this is what I had in mind. You don’t need absolute control over it to stop it from becoming a problem, you just need the simplest barriers to prevent the most vulnerable from falling into the addiction trap. And it just so happens that society has already created these kinds of protections.
Don't get me wrong; the fact that people are using these as a means to get off of smoking tobacco is the one saving grace it has. My sister did the same thing you're doing now. I said that the...
Don't get me wrong; the fact that people are using these as a means to get off of smoking tobacco is the one saving grace it has. My sister did the same thing you're doing now. I said that the only reason to add nicotine is to make it addictive, but the truth is that I was well aware of the strategy of weaning oneself off of the drug.
But the fact of the matter is that these products have done far more damage than good. While it may be true that vaping is better for your health than smoking, It's still bad for your health! And we don't even know the depths of damage it could be causing yet!
Maybe nicotine shouldn't be banned, but by all means it should be a federally controlled substance with far more than just an age restriction. If doctors don't trust people to take an opiate painkiller without adding substances that will kill their livers if they consume too much, why are we OK selling this addictive drug in grocery stores?
because nicotine itself isn't that harmful? of course it's deadly in overdose but even high doses regularly are about as harmful as caffeine. an well-constructed vape with unflavored e-juice is...
why are we OK selling this addictive drug in grocery stores?
because nicotine itself isn't that harmful? of course it's deadly in overdose but even high doses regularly are about as harmful as caffeine. an well-constructed vape with unflavored e-juice is only minimally if at all harmful. burning organic material is a whole different ballpark---even eating smoked meat carries risk as a result of the particles adhered to the meat (probably a less healthy than vaping).
the character assassination of vaping is going to go down as one of the biggest missteps in public health history.
As I posted elsewhere, vaping is still very bad for your health, and the biggest problem with vaping is that there is a whole laundry list of additional research required to fully understand the...
As I posted elsewhere, vaping is still very bad for your health, and the biggest problem with vaping is that there is a whole laundry list of additional research required to fully understand the health effects it has. It's certainly worse for your health than smoked meat because it's entering through your lungs, with the added negative that it's addictive!
Nobody here is arguing against vapes without nicotine.
I don't think that study says what you think it says. As far as I can tell, it mostly talks about how few studies there have been and of those that there are, how small scale, and relatively...
I don't think that study says what you think it says. As far as I can tell, it mostly talks about how few studies there have been and of those that there are, how small scale, and relatively inconclusive they have been so far (since most were in-vitro or used animals). That's why they conclude that more thorough and long-term testing on actual humans is "urgently required".
From the abstract:
Numerous in vivo and in vitro studies have been performed to better understand the impact of these new inhalable compounds on human health. Results of toxicological analyses suggest that e-cigarettes can be safer than conventional cigarettes, although harmful effects from short-term e-cigarette use have been described. Worryingly, the potential long-term effects of e-cigarette consumption have been scarcely investigated. In this review, we take stock of the main findings in this field and their consequences for human health including coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).
And from the conclusion:
The harmful effects of CS (cigarette smoke) and their deleterious consequences are both well recognised and widely investigated. However, and based on the studies carried out so far, it seems that e-cigarette consumption is less toxic than tobacco smoking. This does not necessarily mean, however, that e-cigarettes are free from hazardous effects. Indeed, studies investigating their long-term effects on human health are urgently required. In this regard, the main additional studies needed in this field are summarized in Table 3.
Table 3 Future research needed in the impact of e-cigarette-consumption in human health
Evaluate long-term effects of e-cigarette-consumption in human health for safety guarantee
Search for clear evidences of e-cigarette as a smoking cessation tool
Increase the number of in vivo and ex vivo studies (preferentially in humans)
Study the effects of e-cigarette-consumption on the immune system
Study effects the impact of e-cigarette-consumption on the cardiovascular system
Analyse potential toxicological effects of humectants, flavourings and related products after the heating process at physiological concentrations (similar to those that e-cigarette vapers are exposed)
Limit the number of flavourings authorised: The list should be strictly limited to those flavourings with long-term safety guaranteed, and appealing flavours for children/adolescents should be banned
Eradicate counterfeit products and implement a stricter regulation (e.g., Establish a strict range of nicotine content worldwide; standardize labelling; etc.)
Material device: all materials used should not generate harmful particles in aerosols
Follow-up study of the effects on respiratory and cardiovascular complications derived from SARS-CoV-2 infection
I'm gonna take a second to be real, here. I feel really stressed about the news as of late. I feel like the entire world is falling apart around me, and I might just be using this topic as an...
Exemplary
I'm gonna take a second to be real, here. I feel really stressed about the news as of late. I feel like the entire world is falling apart around me, and I might just be using this topic as an excuse to get upset about something, so I'm just going to leave it alone for now. My apologies if I came across as harsh to anyone.
What do you suggest we need beyond the age restriction? As much as I hate nicotine and the tobacco industry, I'm really skeptical of the idea that locking things down harder will do any good,...
What do you suggest we need beyond the age restriction? As much as I hate nicotine and the tobacco industry, I'm really skeptical of the idea that locking things down harder will do any good, especially considering...well, everything about the war on drugs. I assume you aren't saying we should lock up people for smoking and vaping, but limiting access brings up problems of its own. I wouldn't mind seeing these companies wiped out and replaced with brutally uncool and boring government-produced equivalents, but that isn't gonna happen.
I look at this as primarily an issue that comes down to social pressures and education. We made so much progress taking down smoking before vaping popped up, and I mostly see it as a setback that needs to be addressed the same way.
Maybe ban liquids with nicotine but allow nicotine to be sold separately. That way one has to put in slightly more effort to vape liquids with nicotine and doesn't get it by default.
Maybe ban liquids with nicotine but allow nicotine to be sold separately. That way one has to put in slightly more effort to vape liquids with nicotine and doesn't get it by default.
That seems reasonable, and teens susceptible to peer pressure at least have an option that doesn't lead to a dependence. A slightly-more heavy handed approach would be to sell regular vapes (is...
That seems reasonable, and teens susceptible to peer pressure at least have an option that doesn't lead to a dependence.
A slightly-more heavy handed approach would be to sell regular vapes (is that the word?), but require a doctor's approval to buy nicotine variants for existing smokers. Ideally you'd want to simplify things for smokers while making things harder for non-smokers.
Now you'd think in 2022 we'd have a unified ID with networked health records to make a program like that trivial to implement. In reality it would be a new layer built on top of a crumbling infrastructure, rife with abuse and fraud. But maybe there'd still be enough good to come out of it to be worth it.
The initial goal was to switch to it and taper off the nicotine, in general. Some people just decided they liked vaping, it wasnt "as bad as smoking" and never quit.
The initial goal was to switch to it and taper off the nicotine, in general. Some people just decided they liked vaping, it wasnt "as bad as smoking" and never quit.
The nicotine is optional. You can buy liquid with as much or as little (or no) nicotine in it, as you like. It is an ideal method to wean yourself off of it. My only gripe is that it should be...
The nicotine is optional. You can buy liquid with as much or as little (or no) nicotine in it, as you like. It is an ideal method to wean yourself off of it.
My only gripe is that it should be (and should have been, immediately after they invented them) regulated just like tobacco products.
the biggest issues imo are the aggressive advertising and pushing to children and the shitty disposable plastic vapes (puff-bar type things) that probably give you gigacancer (and are more...
the biggest issues imo are the aggressive advertising and pushing to children and the shitty disposable plastic vapes (puff-bar type things) that probably give you gigacancer (and are more accessible to children and create more e-waste). banning vaping means removing a safe way to quit and forces current users to switch to cigarettes (terrible) or the [unregulated!] black market (also terrible!). it is a stupid move either way.
A federal appeals court on Friday temporarily blocked the Food and Drug Administration's order for Juul to stop selling e-cigarettes.
Driving the news: Juul filed an emergency motion earlier Friday with the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington to appeal the sales ban, which looked to remove Juul e-cigarettes from the U.S. market.
Details: The appeals court said in the ruling the FDA's decision to ban Juul from the market would be "stayed pending further order of the court," according to the court order obtained by Axios.
"The purpose of this administrative stay is to give the court sufficient opportunity to consider petitioner’s forthcoming emergency motion for stay pending court review," the order reads.
Juul declined Axios' request for comment.
The FDA said it does not comment on pending or ongoing litigation.
Good. Now to get rid of the rest.
When vaping first came on the scene, I thought that it was actually a pretty neat idea because it was a neat way to get rid of the oral fixation part that was common with smoking addiction. The fluids were interesting flavors that if you got a whiff of them it would actually be somewhat pleasant, at least when compared to the smell of second hand smoke.
Then they started putting nicotine into them and all the ones that didn't have it seemed to instantly disappear. And unlike those earlier ones, these ones were sold at mainstream drug and convenience stores, which was a big part of the reason why teens started getting their hands on them.
The fact that they put nicotine into these in the first place just strikes me as an unquestionably evil act. There's literally only one reason to add nicotine to any product, and that is to make it addictive. The fact that they put it through this new process, one with which we had no understanding about the potential health risks, makes it all that much worse. The simple fact is that nicotine is an addictive drug, and people who sell it are drug dealers and pushers. They can say "it's so much better than cigarettes" all they want but at the end of the day they are still profiting off of human misery.
So are we just ignoring that many cigarette smokers fail to quit smoking until they switch to vaping nicotine?
Raises hand. That's my experience with them. I had been smoking cigarettes since I was about 14 years old, and smoked them for over 20 years. I had tried to quit using the gum, patch, and various other methods (like hypnosis) countless times over the years, but none of them were sufficient alone, or even in concert, and so I always inevitable went back to smoking cigs once my cravings got unbearable after a week or so.
Vapes changed all of that though, and I was finally able to "quit" a few years ago thanks to them. I say "quit" because I still vape, but at least it's a hell of a lot better for my health than smoking cigarettes, and it has also allowed me to slowly ween myself off nicotine in the process. I'm currently using 3 & 6 mg nicotine e-juices down from 12, 16 & 20mg ones when I first started. And pretty soon I should hopefully be able to switch to 1.5mg ones, eventually going nicotine free, and then try to break the ritualistic and oral fixation aspects of the habit after that... hopefully permanently this time!
So @Akir, please understand that this isn't such a cut and dry issue as you make it out to be, and if the government completely removed vaping e-juice with nicotene as an option, many of us who are still trying to quit smoking will very likely be driven back to smoking cigarettes instead, which is way worse for our health.
What if nicotine is removed from vapes, but can be added via a prescription from a doctor? This could make it harder for teens to get access to it, but it could still be used by smokers to help quit.
Obviously, with our healthcare system, this isn't perfect. It would need to be something that could be prescribed via free clinics and the cost should be very minimal.
Nothing is perfect, but sometimes increasing the barrier to entry is enough to keep some people from getting addicted in the first place.
Doing that while tobacco products themselves are still sold at retailers and only behind an age restriction makes absolutely no sense to me. And personally, if I had had to go see my doctor every month for the last 2 years to constantly renew a nicotine prescription while I was attempting to slowly ween myself off it via vaping, that likely would have caused me to give up and go back to smoking cigs again.
Barriers work both ways, unfortunately. Forcing nicotine for vapes to be prescribed may help prevent teens from getting newly addicted, but it would also likely greatly reduce the odds of vaping helping people quit smoking cigarettes as well.
Instead, couldn’t just forcing nicotine to be sold separately from the flavoured ejuice, without requiring a prescription but from a totally separate and more heavily regulated retailer (like over-the-counter at a pharmacy, similar to how nicotine gum and patches are sold), be a nice middle ground though? That should still be an effective barrier for teens, but not one that will completely discourage cigarette smokers from acquiring it while they attempt to quit.
Can't you have like an infinite prescription in your country? Many prescriptions doesn't need to be renewed in my country.
Really? There's no such thing in the US, as far as I know.
We don't have it for antibiotics, psych meds, or troublesome stuff like opioids and such. Other than that, it's generally "infinite prescriptions".
As someone who'll be on a hormone regimen for the rest of my life, I'm quite envious of that policy!
I feel your pain. I take psych meds and by law I have to see my doctor at least once every 3 months. Which, to be honest, is generally quite sensible, but also a pain in the ass.
I’m actually not sure what the laws about prescription renewal lengths are here in Canada. Every prescription I have ever had has only been 30 days before requiring another doctor/psychiatrist visit in order to renew it though, with the only exception to that being if I was travelling for an extended period.
Open to the same with alcohol, THC, and any other substance?
@Whom this is what I had in mind. You don’t need absolute control over it to stop it from becoming a problem, you just need the simplest barriers to prevent the most vulnerable from falling into the addiction trap. And it just so happens that society has already created these kinds of protections.
Don't get me wrong; the fact that people are using these as a means to get off of smoking tobacco is the one saving grace it has. My sister did the same thing you're doing now. I said that the only reason to add nicotine is to make it addictive, but the truth is that I was well aware of the strategy of weaning oneself off of the drug.
But the fact of the matter is that these products have done far more damage than good. While it may be true that vaping is better for your health than smoking, It's still bad for your health! And we don't even know the depths of damage it could be causing yet!
Maybe nicotine shouldn't be banned, but by all means it should be a federally controlled substance with far more than just an age restriction. If doctors don't trust people to take an opiate painkiller without adding substances that will kill their livers if they consume too much, why are we OK selling this addictive drug in grocery stores?
because nicotine itself isn't that harmful? of course it's deadly in overdose but even high doses regularly are about as harmful as caffeine. an well-constructed vape with unflavored e-juice is only minimally if at all harmful. burning organic material is a whole different ballpark---even eating smoked meat carries risk as a result of the particles adhered to the meat (probably a less healthy than vaping).
the character assassination of vaping is going to go down as one of the biggest missteps in public health history.
As I posted elsewhere, vaping is still very bad for your health, and the biggest problem with vaping is that there is a whole laundry list of additional research required to fully understand the health effects it has. It's certainly worse for your health than smoked meat because it's entering through your lungs, with the added negative that it's addictive!
Nobody here is arguing against vapes without nicotine.
I don't think that study says what you think it says. As far as I can tell, it mostly talks about how few studies there have been and of those that there are, how small scale, and relatively inconclusive they have been so far (since most were in-vitro or used animals). That's why they conclude that more thorough and long-term testing on actual humans is "urgently required".
From the abstract:
And from the conclusion:
I'm gonna take a second to be real, here. I feel really stressed about the news as of late. I feel like the entire world is falling apart around me, and I might just be using this topic as an excuse to get upset about something, so I'm just going to leave it alone for now. My apologies if I came across as harsh to anyone.
That's totally understandable given present circumstances, so no worries.
What do you suggest we need beyond the age restriction? As much as I hate nicotine and the tobacco industry, I'm really skeptical of the idea that locking things down harder will do any good, especially considering...well, everything about the war on drugs. I assume you aren't saying we should lock up people for smoking and vaping, but limiting access brings up problems of its own. I wouldn't mind seeing these companies wiped out and replaced with brutally uncool and boring government-produced equivalents, but that isn't gonna happen.
I look at this as primarily an issue that comes down to social pressures and education. We made so much progress taking down smoking before vaping popped up, and I mostly see it as a setback that needs to be addressed the same way.
Maybe ban liquids with nicotine but allow nicotine to be sold separately. That way one has to put in slightly more effort to vape liquids with nicotine and doesn't get it by default.
That seems reasonable, and teens susceptible to peer pressure at least have an option that doesn't lead to a dependence.
A slightly-more heavy handed approach would be to sell regular vapes (is that the word?), but require a doctor's approval to buy nicotine variants for existing smokers. Ideally you'd want to simplify things for smokers while making things harder for non-smokers.
Now you'd think in 2022 we'd have a unified ID with networked health records to make a program like that trivial to implement. In reality it would be a new layer built on top of a crumbling infrastructure, rife with abuse and fraud. But maybe there'd still be enough good to come out of it to be worth it.
Maybe it would make sense for nicotine vapes to require a prescription, or at least only make them available for people over a certain age.
Except for the fact that it's a simulant. No one would knowingly ingest an addictive substance if it provided zero other effect.
The initial goal was to switch to it and taper off the nicotine, in general. Some people just decided they liked vaping, it wasnt "as bad as smoking" and never quit.
The nicotine is optional. You can buy liquid with as much or as little (or no) nicotine in it, as you like. It is an ideal method to wean yourself off of it.
My only gripe is that it should be (and should have been, immediately after they invented them) regulated just like tobacco products.
the biggest issues imo are the aggressive advertising and pushing to children and the shitty disposable plastic vapes (puff-bar type things) that probably give you gigacancer (and are more accessible to children and create more e-waste). banning vaping means removing a safe way to quit and forces current users to switch to cigarettes (terrible) or the [unregulated!] black market (also terrible!). it is a stupid move either way.
Federal court puts hold on FDA ban on Juul e-cigarette sales
Pretty much what I expected to happen, unfortunately.