This is a good point, and it's why I have pronouns in my Tildes bio even though I'm a cis guy. If only trans people post pronouns, it becomes a trans identifier. If both cis and trans people do...
I try to do it even with cis friends. Otherwise, I think it might come out awkward to people who know me and kinda act like a signal to people that the person I'm presenting isn't cis which is a shame.
This is a good point, and it's why I have pronouns in my Tildes bio even though I'm a cis guy. If only trans people post pronouns, it becomes a trans identifier. If both cis and trans people do it, then it lets trans people be addressed in their desired manner without simultaneously outing them as trans. As such, I see pronoun normalization among cis people as a way of giving privacy to any given individual's trans status. We make gender public information via posting pronouns, but such disclosure doesn't tell us anything about whether or not the person is cis or trans. This allows each individual person to retain the right to disclose that when and to whom they wish.
Before I make some meta-commentary on what I see in this thread, I want to say fantastic article and thank you for writing it and being a wonderful ally! I've seen a lot of people in this post...
Before I make some meta-commentary on what I see in this thread, I want to say fantastic article and thank you for writing it and being a wonderful ally!
I've seen a lot of people in this post advocate for asking someone's pronouns when they interact with them. I've been in the practice of providing my own and not asking others because then there is no direct pressure for someone to provide them, especially if they are uncomfortable doing so or worse put them in a situation where they feel a pressure to provide incorrect pronouns out of fear of retaliation or discrimination. I think this is an important point that is often missed when people want to push the pronoun normalization and would encourage others to act similarly. I hope one day coming out as gender nonconforming is less of an issue and this won't matter, but I don't think we're quite there yet.
That's a very good point! I've definitely seen someone provide incorrect pronouns out of fear or nervousness. This wasn't when talking to me but rather to someone else and I'm not entirely sure if...
That's a very good point! I've definitely seen someone provide incorrect pronouns out of fear or nervousness. This wasn't when talking to me but rather to someone else and I'm not entirely sure if it was simply because of confusion at the time.
When writing the post, I was coming from the position of telling my pronouns first and then asking because I feel that going first will probably position myself as an ally rather than someone simply unsure what pronouns they use. Maybe I'm simply too optimist in that regard.
I think it's less problematic in a 1:1 environment, but the context does need to be taken into consideration. For example, work is a very different dynamic than friendship and someone may not want...
I think it's less problematic in a 1:1 environment, but the context does need to be taken into consideration. For example, work is a very different dynamic than friendship and someone may not want to come out at work to anyone.
I'm not sure if there's a 'best path' forward... for all we know the kind of support you're providing is exactly the little nudge someone needs to start to come out. For others, it may not work out so well. I think the important thing is to have regular conversations like this and try to be considerate and compassionate where we can.
I have a somewhat different and not terribly-strongly-held view on this, though I'd be interested in hearing criticism of it. I have no objection to others specifying pronouns, if they choose to...
I have a somewhat different and not terribly-strongly-held view on this, though I'd be interested in hearing criticism of it. I have no objection to others specifying pronouns, if they choose to do so, but I am averse to doing so for myself, and I'd like to continue to have the freedom not to specify them. I don't care what pronouns people use for me, and I don't want to dictate how other people should refer to me in that respect, or dictate what language they should use when referring to me in general. From a perhaps selfish perspective, I actually find it interesting to hear how people refer to me, which reflects both something of their perception of me, and something of themselves. While I don't consider myself trans, I don't think my view is simply a result of that, as I do seem to very frequently have different people refer to me with different pronouns and gendered terms.
Somewhat similarly, perhaps, my name is something that both is not easily placed, and exists in different forms in different cultures and languages, sometimes similar except for spelling, sometimes spoken differently. People frequently refer to me using different variations of the name, which also says something about their own background and about how they see me. I don't see some of these variations as being correct and others incorrect: they exist in a space between me and the speaker. There is the form that I use personally, but even then, that differs depending upon language, and sometimes upon circumstances.
I can certainly understand why people would care about the pronouns used to refer to them, and I endeavour to respect that. This is also not a matter of my not caring about my identity: I actually care about it quite a bit, if perhaps in different respects. I am just less interested in crafting my identity through the language of others, and more interested in understanding how others perceive me through the choices that they make when referring to me. I thus do value the ability not to specify my own pronouns, or, if asked, to say that I genuinely don't mind whatever they choose to use.
I hope this is not, in itself, offensive, as I do worry that it might sound like I am circuitously disagreeing with the practice of others specifying pronouns.
Apologies, when I said freedom, I meant from a social etiquette standpoint: I was more worried that my preference might be socially untenable. But happily, judging from the responses here, that...
I think this reveals a bit of a misconception; nobody wants to force you to do anything. OP is stating what he does and why, in his opinion, it's beneficial for others to do it as well. Your freedom isn't under threat here.
Apologies, when I said freedom, I meant from a social etiquette standpoint: I was more worried that my preference might be socially untenable. But happily, judging from the responses here, that isn't the case.
I feel the same way, but it should be said that the counterpoint to all this is that this is a priviledge. I feel strange about announcing my pronouns because I never chose them, but regardless...
I feel the same way, but it should be said that the counterpoint to all this is that
I thus do value the ability not to specify my own pronouns, or, if asked, to say that I genuinely don't mind whatever they choose to use.
this is a priviledge.
I feel strange about announcing my pronouns because I never chose them, but regardless I'm still comfortable in them and I'm able to take them for granted. As such I'm lucky that my identity isn't easily challenged. That comfort is something not everyone possesses, and 'not minding' isn't reachable for many, which is something I think the article ought to mention.
I'm in a similar boat. I genuinely don't mind being referred to with any particular pronouns, and TBH at this point in my life am not even sure which ones I actually identify most with anymore...
I'm in a similar boat. I genuinely don't mind being referred to with any particular pronouns, and TBH at this point in my life am not even sure which ones I actually identify most with anymore either. And I also find it rather fascinating seeing which pronouns people online assume they should refer to me with, since I have never really expressed a preference anywhere. Despite that, I do try my absolute best to not assume anyone else's gender though, and I also endeavour to always refer to people using their preferred pronouns once they make them known.
I think that's an interesting point of view. Acting mysterious to get information about people's cultures. Also, just to be clear, as tindall said that I don't wish to force people to do anything,...
I think that's an interesting point of view. Acting mysterious to get information about people's cultures.
Also, just to be clear, as tindall said that I don't wish to force people to do anything, it's merely a suggestion that goes along with my arguments.
and I endeavour to respect that.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, this may be a typo.
I don't think that's a typo. "Endeavour" is just another way of saying "try my best", and I used similar wording in my own reply: "... and I also endeavour to always refer to people using their...
I don't think that's a typo. "Endeavour" is just another way of saying "try my best", and I used similar wording in my own reply: "... and I also endeavour to always refer to people using their preferred pronouns once they make them known." Which I assume is also the way in which @pallas meant it too.
Is this supposed to show inconsistency in how I wrote this? An highlight or summary? I'm asking because I thought I repeated myself (as I often do) and now I'm not sure. 🤐
Is this supposed to show inconsistency in how I wrote this? An highlight or summary?
I'm asking because I thought I repeated myself (as I often do) and now I'm not sure. 🤐
I don't mean to be overbearing, but for this exact reason I feel like we ought to provide some analysis of our own if we're going to quote something from an article in the comments. It can also...
I don't mean to be overbearing, but for this exact reason I feel like we ought to provide some analysis of our own if we're going to quote something from an article in the comments. It can also serve as a bit of a conversation-starter, where a quote on its own might not be sufficient. (My old English teachers would knock off points if I did that in an essay!)
I'm definitely used to quotes being followed by a "..." as a sign of dumbfounded ridicule. Maybe "[...]" or a single "-" would be a better divider for your use.
I'm definitely used to quotes being followed by a "..." as a sign of dumbfounded ridicule. Maybe "[...]" or a single "-" would be a better divider for your use.
I am a (gender)queer male, and I'm not sure what pronouns I should use. I consider my philosophy 'post-gender', in that I think gender is a concept we should get rid of because it is arbitrary, a...
I am a (gender)queer male, and I'm not sure what pronouns I should use. I consider my philosophy 'post-gender', in that I think gender is a concept we should get rid of because it is arbitrary, a cornerstone of patriarchy, and a cause of gender dysphoria [1]. I don't feel comfortable identifying as any gender, which is why I have started to use the queer label. But I also don't really care what people refer to me as, although I have not experienced any gender-related oppression so I would not want to be referred to as she/her/woman or as trans because I do not want to detract from these movements or their fight for equality and rights.
So I think I am most comfortable with no pronouns: just use my name, why do we need pronouns anyway? Isn't it just a linguistic shorthand? How do I signal that though -- is there a term for 'no pronouns' ?
[1] In no way do I want to erase the struggles of trans people or people who have GD so I want to be extra clear about this statement. My understanding (correct me if I am wrong!) is that there are many causes of gender dysphoria, and that it can arise from a mismatch between a person's internalised view of their own sex and/or gender, and either their body's sex characteristics, their gender presentation (clothing, mannerisms, ...), how their gender is perceived by or how they are gendered by other people, or any combination of these factors. So my understanding is that if society largely destroyed the idea of gender, and nobody was assigned a gender, and clothes and mannerisms, etc. were no longer gendered, then GD would largely be about sex and if someone feels comfortable with their own body -- in this post-gender world it would be a specific subset of gender dysphoria which we could call sex dysphoria -- and some other causes of gender dysphoria would be solved by the lack of social expectation to fit into a gender role and having never been assigned an incorrect gender role in the first place. Of course some people may still feel most comfortable embodying a set of characteristics which we would conventionally label as 'man' or 'woman', and this need not align with their sex, but I do not know if it is necessary for people to still label themselves as 'man' or 'woman' or 'cis' or 'trans' in a post-gender world. If people want to do that, I have no problem with that, do what makes you happy and comfortable, I just want to understand how that fits in to my post-gender thinking.
I have my pronouns included in every email I send work or personal, I have my pronouns added to my name on my desk and in slack, and I while I am far from perfect at it, I try to make a best...
I have my pronouns included in every email I send work or personal, I have my pronouns added to my name on my desk and in slack, and I while I am far from perfect at it, I try to make a best effort to ask people theirs when I first meet them. All in all its eh. Sometimes people look surprised but no one has made a big deal about it. Usually they just answer and we move on. Sometimes it prompts them to ask me for mine, sometimes I'm ahead of the game and say mine when I introduce myself.
I haven't really done anything social lately so I can't really say for sure, but I have an enamel pin that has my pronouns on it that is on my jean jacket. This was (not shockingly) received very positively or neutrally at the political rallies. I'm trying to get better at asking wait staff as well but again, really haven't been going out in quite a while so hard to judge.
Why not both? Online is the easiest, or the most passive. I added mine this morning to my email signature after the company provided an official template.
Why not both? Online is the easiest, or the most passive. I added mine this morning to my email signature after the company provided an official template.
I do a certain amount of social dancing under normal circumstances, and this question comes up implicitly in the formation of sets for each dance of the evening. This flavor of dance traditionally...
I do a certain amount of social dancing under normal circumstances, and this question comes up implicitly in the formation of sets for each dance of the evening. This flavor of dance traditionally places the men on the left side of the set and the women on the right (looking toward the top), but modern convention has opted instead for sides for "larks" and "ravens," respectively. I generally dance as a lark because my height makes some of the figures easier (allemande, etc.), regardless of the gender of my partner. It also means I don't have to remember any of the figures unique to the ravens' side.
To avoid potential conflicts in physical orientation, I usually take a partner whose side preference I already know in the first dance (it's a small community), and make a mental note of who else dances raven for upcoming partner changes. As a final precaution, I've made a habit of explicitly asking my partners, "Do you have a side preference?" before we begin. The answer is almost always "I'm fine with anything!" or "I'd prefer raven" (as I have so cleverly engineered). Some of my female dance friends have remarked in the past that when they ask this question of male dancers (especially older ones), responses may range from "no preference" to the occasional "uh, lark...?," accompanied by a raised eyebrow. If I'm given a nametag for the dance, I include my pronouns on it too, even though it's made somewhat redundant by my explicitly stated side preference.
Outside of this context, I include my pronouns whenever I introduce myself to a group of people I don't know. This has never been a problem before. If I'm meeting someone through a friend, I assume they already know my pronouns; on the rare occasion that I suspect they're uncertain (or just trying to be courteous), I'll find a way to mention them in a story or quotation. I'm not very confrontational and would prefer to avoid a potentially awkward apology on their part, especially if we're some ways into the interaction. There are basically no contexts where I'd be meeting with someone one-on-one and they hadn't already seen my pronouns in a bio somewhere.
I've only done this in the context of lgbt student groups because I'm pretty scared of starting conversations and well, now there's COVID so I don't even go outside. :/
I've only done this in the context of lgbt student groups because I'm pretty scared of starting conversations and well, now there's COVID so I don't even go outside. :/
This is a good point, and it's why I have pronouns in my Tildes bio even though I'm a cis guy. If only trans people post pronouns, it becomes a trans identifier. If both cis and trans people do it, then it lets trans people be addressed in their desired manner without simultaneously outing them as trans. As such, I see pronoun normalization among cis people as a way of giving privacy to any given individual's trans status. We make gender public information via posting pronouns, but such disclosure doesn't tell us anything about whether or not the person is cis or trans. This allows each individual person to retain the right to disclose that when and to whom they wish.
Before I make some meta-commentary on what I see in this thread, I want to say fantastic article and thank you for writing it and being a wonderful ally!
I've seen a lot of people in this post advocate for asking someone's pronouns when they interact with them. I've been in the practice of providing my own and not asking others because then there is no direct pressure for someone to provide them, especially if they are uncomfortable doing so or worse put them in a situation where they feel a pressure to provide incorrect pronouns out of fear of retaliation or discrimination. I think this is an important point that is often missed when people want to push the pronoun normalization and would encourage others to act similarly. I hope one day coming out as gender nonconforming is less of an issue and this won't matter, but I don't think we're quite there yet.
That's a very good point! I've definitely seen someone provide incorrect pronouns out of fear or nervousness. This wasn't when talking to me but rather to someone else and I'm not entirely sure if it was simply because of confusion at the time.
When writing the post, I was coming from the position of telling my pronouns first and then asking because I feel that going first will probably position myself as an ally rather than someone simply unsure what pronouns they use. Maybe I'm simply too optimist in that regard.
I think it's less problematic in a 1:1 environment, but the context does need to be taken into consideration. For example, work is a very different dynamic than friendship and someone may not want to come out at work to anyone.
I'm not sure if there's a 'best path' forward... for all we know the kind of support you're providing is exactly the little nudge someone needs to start to come out. For others, it may not work out so well. I think the important thing is to have regular conversations like this and try to be considerate and compassionate where we can.
I have a somewhat different and not terribly-strongly-held view on this, though I'd be interested in hearing criticism of it. I have no objection to others specifying pronouns, if they choose to do so, but I am averse to doing so for myself, and I'd like to continue to have the freedom not to specify them. I don't care what pronouns people use for me, and I don't want to dictate how other people should refer to me in that respect, or dictate what language they should use when referring to me in general. From a perhaps selfish perspective, I actually find it interesting to hear how people refer to me, which reflects both something of their perception of me, and something of themselves. While I don't consider myself trans, I don't think my view is simply a result of that, as I do seem to very frequently have different people refer to me with different pronouns and gendered terms.
Somewhat similarly, perhaps, my name is something that both is not easily placed, and exists in different forms in different cultures and languages, sometimes similar except for spelling, sometimes spoken differently. People frequently refer to me using different variations of the name, which also says something about their own background and about how they see me. I don't see some of these variations as being correct and others incorrect: they exist in a space between me and the speaker. There is the form that I use personally, but even then, that differs depending upon language, and sometimes upon circumstances.
I can certainly understand why people would care about the pronouns used to refer to them, and I endeavour to respect that. This is also not a matter of my not caring about my identity: I actually care about it quite a bit, if perhaps in different respects. I am just less interested in crafting my identity through the language of others, and more interested in understanding how others perceive me through the choices that they make when referring to me. I thus do value the ability not to specify my own pronouns, or, if asked, to say that I genuinely don't mind whatever they choose to use.
I hope this is not, in itself, offensive, as I do worry that it might sound like I am circuitously disagreeing with the practice of others specifying pronouns.
Apologies, when I said freedom, I meant from a social etiquette standpoint: I was more worried that my preference might be socially untenable. But happily, judging from the responses here, that isn't the case.
I feel the same way, but it should be said that the counterpoint to all this is that
this is a priviledge.
I feel strange about announcing my pronouns because I never chose them, but regardless I'm still comfortable in them and I'm able to take them for granted. As such I'm lucky that my identity isn't easily challenged. That comfort is something not everyone possesses, and 'not minding' isn't reachable for many, which is something I think the article ought to mention.
I'm in a similar boat. I genuinely don't mind being referred to with any particular pronouns, and TBH at this point in my life am not even sure which ones I actually identify most with anymore either. And I also find it rather fascinating seeing which pronouns people online assume they should refer to me with, since I have never really expressed a preference anywhere. Despite that, I do try my absolute best to not assume anyone else's gender though, and I also endeavour to always refer to people using their preferred pronouns once they make them known.
I think that's an interesting point of view. Acting mysterious to get information about people's cultures.
Also, just to be clear, as tindall said that I don't wish to force people to do anything, it's merely a suggestion that goes along with my arguments.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, this may be a typo.
I don't think that's a typo. "Endeavour" is just another way of saying "try my best", and I used similar wording in my own reply: "... and I also endeavour to always refer to people using their preferred pronouns once they make them known." Which I assume is also the way in which @pallas meant it too.
Is this supposed to show inconsistency in how I wrote this? An highlight or summary?
I'm asking because I thought I repeated myself (as I often do) and now I'm not sure. 🤐
I don't mean to be overbearing, but for this exact reason I feel like we ought to provide some analysis of our own if we're going to quote something from an article in the comments. It can also serve as a bit of a conversation-starter, where a quote on its own might not be sufficient. (My old English teachers would knock off points if I did that in an essay!)
I'm definitely used to quotes being followed by a "..." as a sign of dumbfounded ridicule. Maybe "[...]" or a single "-" would be a better divider for your use.
I am a (gender)queer male, and I'm not sure what pronouns I should use. I consider my philosophy 'post-gender', in that I think gender is a concept we should get rid of because it is arbitrary, a cornerstone of patriarchy, and a cause of gender dysphoria [1]. I don't feel comfortable identifying as any gender, which is why I have started to use the queer label. But I also don't really care what people refer to me as, although I have not experienced any gender-related oppression so I would not want to be referred to as she/her/woman or as trans because I do not want to detract from these movements or their fight for equality and rights.
So I think I am most comfortable with no pronouns: just use my name, why do we need pronouns anyway? Isn't it just a linguistic shorthand? How do I signal that though -- is there a term for 'no pronouns' ?
[1] In no way do I want to erase the struggles of trans people or people who have GD so I want to be extra clear about this statement. My understanding (correct me if I am wrong!) is that there are many causes of gender dysphoria, and that it can arise from a mismatch between a person's internalised view of their own sex and/or gender, and either their body's sex characteristics, their gender presentation (clothing, mannerisms, ...), how their gender is perceived by or how they are gendered by other people, or any combination of these factors. So my understanding is that if society largely destroyed the idea of gender, and nobody was assigned a gender, and clothes and mannerisms, etc. were no longer gendered, then GD would largely be about sex and if someone feels comfortable with their own body -- in this post-gender world it would be a specific subset of gender dysphoria which we could call sex dysphoria -- and some other causes of gender dysphoria would be solved by the lack of social expectation to fit into a gender role and having never been assigned an incorrect gender role in the first place. Of course some people may still feel most comfortable embodying a set of characteristics which we would conventionally label as 'man' or 'woman', and this need not align with their sex, but I do not know if it is necessary for people to still label themselves as 'man' or 'woman' or 'cis' or 'trans' in a post-gender world. If people want to do that, I have no problem with that, do what makes you happy and comfortable, I just want to understand how that fits in to my post-gender thinking.
I have my pronouns included in every email I send work or personal, I have my pronouns added to my name on my desk and in slack, and I while I am far from perfect at it, I try to make a best effort to ask people theirs when I first meet them. All in all its eh. Sometimes people look surprised but no one has made a big deal about it. Usually they just answer and we move on. Sometimes it prompts them to ask me for mine, sometimes I'm ahead of the game and say mine when I introduce myself.
I haven't really done anything social lately so I can't really say for sure, but I have an enamel pin that has my pronouns on it that is on my jean jacket. This was (not shockingly) received very positively or neutrally at the political rallies. I'm trying to get better at asking wait staff as well but again, really haven't been going out in quite a while so hard to judge.
Why not both? Online is the easiest, or the most passive. I added mine this morning to my email signature after the company provided an official template.
I do a certain amount of social dancing under normal circumstances, and this question comes up implicitly in the formation of sets for each dance of the evening. This flavor of dance traditionally places the men on the left side of the set and the women on the right (looking toward the top), but modern convention has opted instead for sides for "larks" and "ravens," respectively. I generally dance as a lark because my height makes some of the figures easier (allemande, etc.), regardless of the gender of my partner. It also means I don't have to remember any of the figures unique to the ravens' side.
To avoid potential conflicts in physical orientation, I usually take a partner whose side preference I already know in the first dance (it's a small community), and make a mental note of who else dances raven for upcoming partner changes. As a final precaution, I've made a habit of explicitly asking my partners, "Do you have a side preference?" before we begin. The answer is almost always "I'm fine with anything!" or "I'd prefer raven" (as I have so cleverly engineered). Some of my female dance friends have remarked in the past that when they ask this question of male dancers (especially older ones), responses may range from "no preference" to the occasional "uh, lark...?," accompanied by a raised eyebrow. If I'm given a nametag for the dance, I include my pronouns on it too, even though it's made somewhat redundant by my explicitly stated side preference.
Outside of this context, I include my pronouns whenever I introduce myself to a group of people I don't know. This has never been a problem before. If I'm meeting someone through a friend, I assume they already know my pronouns; on the rare occasion that I suspect they're uncertain (or just trying to be courteous), I'll find a way to mention them in a story or quotation. I'm not very confrontational and would prefer to avoid a potentially awkward apology on their part, especially if we're some ways into the interaction. There are basically no contexts where I'd be meeting with someone one-on-one and they hadn't already seen my pronouns in a bio somewhere.
I've only done this in the context of lgbt student groups because I'm pretty scared of starting conversations and well, now there's COVID so I don't even go outside. :/