Jeebus, communication style. I got dinged for being too assertive in meetings on one day, and too reticent the next, in evaluations from the same C-suite person. Needless to say, I had the meeting...
Jeebus, communication style. I got dinged for being too assertive in meetings on one day, and too reticent the next, in evaluations from the same C-suite person. Needless to say, I had the meeting videos to prove that I took almost exactly the same amount of meeting time on both occasions, spoke in turn when appropriate, brought all my evidence/plans and delivered them succinctly. Unlike the other male managers/directors in the room. My argument was not taken well.
I am literally in the same situation as you and I've been debating posting a topic seeking advice because it's driving me absolutely batty. I still feel very fresh in my career, but somehow I have...
I am literally in the same situation as you and I've been debating posting a topic seeking advice because it's driving me absolutely batty.
I still feel very fresh in my career, but somehow I have been handed the responsibility of overseeing a team of all men, including my own manager, and ensuring they are meeting deadlines due to past issues. The moment I started that undertaking, I had problems with getting responses back or them just following the process. I had to reach out to the Senior Leadership who requested for me to take on this task due to the failure of communication I was receiving from those I manage. He straight-up told me not to be as nice and said the trick to getting people to follow you is to hold them to your standards. Well I have tried and tried, with some of these men with 10+ years of experience treating me like their secretary. Reached out again to the same Senior Leader and was told to be more lenient on one individual! So whatcha want? No hand-holding? Or only special cases because poor baby man can't handle following simple instructions? I was livid that this is the response I got when this is a clearly an issue of lack of respect to my authority. It might not have been my most professional moment, but I had to stand my ground to assert what I am dealing with is people not listening. He finally relented and spoke to the individual causing issues, but things still aren't perfect. But the fact that I am having to escalate these things in the first place, initially being dismissed, then having to bring receipts to prove what I am saying is incredibly exhausting in order to be taken seriously.
I may be advising from a different managerial perspective than you've experienced. Our work wasn't so heavy on following internal processes because our role involved defining the processes for...
Exemplary
I may be advising from a different managerial perspective than you've experienced. Our work wasn't so heavy on following internal processes because our role involved defining the processes for others to follow, or improving existing technical solutions.
To the extent that I had any success leading an all-male team, it was by staying focused on outcomes, and working around personalities. I could fume privately about who was right and who was wrong, but staying professional and temperate in all circumstances remained my touchstones. It's hard to keep up this facade when you're getting bad advice from leadership. If you can find the time, join a professional organization for women in your field - it's a great source of wisdom, solidarity, and support.
You sound like you're under considerable stress from subordinates you can't motivate appropriately. Be prepared to change how you lead in response to what they need. Different people respond to different leadership styles, and you'll find that some modes of leadership are more natural to you than others. Initially, it was easy for me to sit down and teach people, rolling up my sleeves and pitching in when needed. I wasn't a naturally hierarchical leader, just someone responsible for seeing that we all collaborated to get things done properly. [Pitching in does not mean playing secretary, or otherwise doing only the tasks your subordinates hate. Coach them into seeing their jobs more holistically, let them understand that communicating well enough to set up their own meetings is a skill they should master for their personal career benefit, and that it's about being fair to everyone on the team.]
I saw management as a way to foresee, avert, and clear obstacles for smart, skilled people worthy of trust, because that's what my best managerial role models did. That would let my coworkers follow their intrinsic motivations, and they could be guided through difficulties until they were confident in their own ability to problem-solve.
That worked well for about 3/4 of the team members, but a couple of guys were just all about the 8 - 5 paycheck. They wanted a manager who would give them orders and tell them precisely what to do and when, even though their job descriptions called for independence and professional levels of discretion. They considered themselves successful if they did only exactly what they were told, regardless of the quality of the outcome, indefinitely. Even if they didn't achieve the bonuses I sweated blood to get for the rest of the team. We frustrated each other immensely, and one of them quit before I learned to adjust and accept that sometimes a pair of hands is enough to get by with.
One guy was the son of a senior VP, and had a gross sense of entitlement. Call in sick to play golf every week or two? Why worry? He grew up with some intensive coaching, and learned he actually liked having his own accomplishments and career growth, without Daddy's interventions.
One guy was so resentful he didn't get the manager spot that he was actively and provably sabotaging the team, with a side helping of physical threats and vicious misogyny towards me. No version of leadership will fix that, and he wasn't smart enough in hiding malfeasance to keep me from the involved process of documenting him out of a job. [Other female managers he'd lied to or threatened in the past were only too happy to help with evidence, but hadn't come forward on their own.]
But that was a horrible experience for me and his teammates. I never, ever, dreamed I could separate a person from their livelihood. I still feel betrayed by how little support I received from my boss in that process. If you stop to reflect on the injuries you're being dealt, you'll eat yourself alive with rage.
There are different styles of leadership, and one of the key tricks to "managing up" (i.e. managing your boss) is to recognize how their style differs from yours. I leaned authoritative/participative, my CIO boss leaned transactional/delegative. He wasn't looking to understand what my team was accomplishing on a technical level. He was looking for divergences from his own managerial style to punish because he couldn't feel comfortable delegating to someone who thought differently. Ultimately, understanding and trying to work with him didn't permit me do the job to my own satisfaction, and it was one of the stressors that led me to quit.
Please don't take anything I say as a set of rules for succeeding in management. I took on the role because there were no good alternatives - either do it myself, or work for a guy who bragged...
Please don't take anything I say as a set of rules for succeeding in management. I took on the role because there were no good alternatives - either do it myself, or work for a guy who bragged about taking a belt to his female relatives (in addition to many other unappealing qualities). I had no training other than what I could scrape together out of books and kaffee klatsches with managers I respected.
If I did anything right, if there's anything I still respected myself for by the time I quit, it was being honest enough to expedite the exodus of talented people from a sinking ship of an employer. [I can't be more specific without de-anon, but feel free to PM with questions.]
I sincerely hope that your career circumstances give you more latitude for growth and happiness in your role.
What was the outcome? You sound extraordinarily well prepared, but I'm guessing it fell on deaf ears. Was there any explanation given for the about-turn you were given in terms of advice?
What was the outcome? You sound extraordinarily well prepared, but I'm guessing it fell on deaf ears. Was there any explanation given for the about-turn you were given in terms of advice?
I think I kind of covered this as part of my response to /u/KneeFingers above: Even though I'd worked a level or two down from the CIO before the management promotion, I hadn't worked with him...
I think I kind of covered this as part of my response to /u/KneeFingers above:
There are different styles of leadership, and one of the key tricks to "managing up" (i.e. managing your boss) is to recognize how their style differs from yours. I leaned authoritative/participative, my CIO boss leaned transactional/delegative. He wasn't looking to understand what my team was accomplishing on a technical level. He was looking for divergences from his own managerial style to punish because he couldn't feel comfortable delegating to someone who thought differently. Ultimately, understanding and trying to work with him didn't permit me do the job to my own satisfaction, and it was one of the stressors that led me to quit.
Even though I'd worked a level or two down from the CIO before the management promotion, I hadn't worked with him directly before. I didn't grasp the degree to which he'd surrounded himself with people who managed others in exactly the same way as he did. To the extent that I was successful, it was because I was bridging the gaps in his strategy. That must have been very disconcerting and threatening to him. I didn't get the support I needed, and didn't see a better outcome unless I went elsewhere.
If higher-ups are worried that a woman won't return after her maternity leave, they should really be asking themselves why that is. Sort of answers itself if they make an effort to discriminate...
If higher-ups are worried that a woman won't return after her maternity leave, they should really be asking themselves why that is. Sort of answers itself if they make an effort to discriminate against that employee because they don't believe they'll come back.
Direct link to the study. Another article on the study which includes an interesting bit about so-called performance bonuses in a heavily women dominated field (healthcare).
I was interested in #30 (veteran status) but the article didn't bring it up (and sadly my institutional access has expired for the study) so my big question was "How does veteran status impact...
I was interested in #30 (veteran status) but the article didn't bring it up (and sadly my institutional access has expired for the study) so my big question was "How does veteran status impact female leaders?"
Is this a positive, where by women are viewed better after learning of Veteran status (anecdotally, my experience) or women are viewed worse, due to combinations of other factors (hard headed, take charge, maybe even 'bitchy' stereotypes - I've seen that too.)
As usual with 'common knowledge' I'm glad there's an actual study to back it up. I felt like I didn't learn much from the article but I'm sure for someone with zero perspective or someone who needs the advice portion would get more from it.
If anyone has access to the study, I'd be interested to hear what their research found with regard to that.
The study itself didn't list the word veteran at all. So I'm not sure. I have the PDF if you have someplace you'd like me to send it Actually, here's the measure that they used. I'm not sure where...
The study itself didn't list the word veteran at all. So I'm not sure.
I have the PDF if you have someplace you'd like me to send it
Actually, here's the measure that they used. I'm not sure where this article is getting this at all.
Interesting! The plot thickens. I'd be interested in the PDF if it's not a hassle. Though I think the bias scale might be an easier read on my desktop! Scrolling sideways on the phone isn't the...
Interesting! The plot thickens. I'd be interested in the PDF if it's not a hassle. Though I think the bias scale might be an easier read on my desktop! Scrolling sideways on the phone isn't the most intuitive.
What did you hope to accomplish by showing up 10 minutes after an article about research on sexism was posted to proclaim that you skimmed the article and found it inconclusive? I'm struggling to...
Exemplary
What did you hope to accomplish by showing up 10 minutes after an article about research on sexism was posted to proclaim that you skimmed the article and found it inconclusive? I'm struggling to see how this is anything but dismissive - you admitted that you skimmed the article, implying you neither read it in full nor the research itself (which I linked above) before sharing your opinion.
How do you think this makes other people feel, especially women, when entering this thread?
I don't see how the timing matters, but I didn't really hope to accomplish anything beyond just sharing my opinion. I did read the full article now and i understand where the author is coming from...
I don't see how the timing matters, but I didn't really hope to accomplish anything beyond just sharing my opinion. I did read the full article now and i understand where the author is coming from a bit better but my initial opinion still stands. Without data from their male peers to compare to I don't think you can make a lot of these conclusions
Although now that i think about it my comment very much is noise
Jeebus, communication style. I got dinged for being too assertive in meetings on one day, and too reticent the next, in evaluations from the same C-suite person. Needless to say, I had the meeting videos to prove that I took almost exactly the same amount of meeting time on both occasions, spoke in turn when appropriate, brought all my evidence/plans and delivered them succinctly. Unlike the other male managers/directors in the room. My argument was not taken well.
I am literally in the same situation as you and I've been debating posting a topic seeking advice because it's driving me absolutely batty.
I still feel very fresh in my career, but somehow I have been handed the responsibility of overseeing a team of all men, including my own manager, and ensuring they are meeting deadlines due to past issues. The moment I started that undertaking, I had problems with getting responses back or them just following the process. I had to reach out to the Senior Leadership who requested for me to take on this task due to the failure of communication I was receiving from those I manage. He straight-up told me not to be as nice and said the trick to getting people to follow you is to hold them to your standards. Well I have tried and tried, with some of these men with 10+ years of experience treating me like their secretary. Reached out again to the same Senior Leader and was told to be more lenient on one individual! So whatcha want? No hand-holding? Or only special cases because poor baby man can't handle following simple instructions? I was livid that this is the response I got when this is a clearly an issue of lack of respect to my authority. It might not have been my most professional moment, but I had to stand my ground to assert what I am dealing with is people not listening. He finally relented and spoke to the individual causing issues, but things still aren't perfect. But the fact that I am having to escalate these things in the first place, initially being dismissed, then having to bring receipts to prove what I am saying is incredibly exhausting in order to be taken seriously.
I may be advising from a different managerial perspective than you've experienced. Our work wasn't so heavy on following internal processes because our role involved defining the processes for others to follow, or improving existing technical solutions.
To the extent that I had any success leading an all-male team, it was by staying focused on outcomes, and working around personalities. I could fume privately about who was right and who was wrong, but staying professional and temperate in all circumstances remained my touchstones. It's hard to keep up this facade when you're getting bad advice from leadership. If you can find the time, join a professional organization for women in your field - it's a great source of wisdom, solidarity, and support.
You sound like you're under considerable stress from subordinates you can't motivate appropriately. Be prepared to change how you lead in response to what they need. Different people respond to different leadership styles, and you'll find that some modes of leadership are more natural to you than others. Initially, it was easy for me to sit down and teach people, rolling up my sleeves and pitching in when needed. I wasn't a naturally hierarchical leader, just someone responsible for seeing that we all collaborated to get things done properly. [Pitching in does not mean playing secretary, or otherwise doing only the tasks your subordinates hate. Coach them into seeing their jobs more holistically, let them understand that communicating well enough to set up their own meetings is a skill they should master for their personal career benefit, and that it's about being fair to everyone on the team.]
I saw management as a way to foresee, avert, and clear obstacles for smart, skilled people worthy of trust, because that's what my best managerial role models did. That would let my coworkers follow their intrinsic motivations, and they could be guided through difficulties until they were confident in their own ability to problem-solve.
That worked well for about 3/4 of the team members, but a couple of guys were just all about the 8 - 5 paycheck. They wanted a manager who would give them orders and tell them precisely what to do and when, even though their job descriptions called for independence and professional levels of discretion. They considered themselves successful if they did only exactly what they were told, regardless of the quality of the outcome, indefinitely. Even if they didn't achieve the bonuses I sweated blood to get for the rest of the team. We frustrated each other immensely, and one of them quit before I learned to adjust and accept that sometimes a pair of hands is enough to get by with.
One guy was the son of a senior VP, and had a gross sense of entitlement. Call in sick to play golf every week or two? Why worry? He grew up with some intensive coaching, and learned he actually liked having his own accomplishments and career growth, without Daddy's interventions.
One guy was so resentful he didn't get the manager spot that he was actively and provably sabotaging the team, with a side helping of physical threats and vicious misogyny towards me. No version of leadership will fix that, and he wasn't smart enough in hiding malfeasance to keep me from the involved process of documenting him out of a job. [Other female managers he'd lied to or threatened in the past were only too happy to help with evidence, but hadn't come forward on their own.]
But that was a horrible experience for me and his teammates. I never, ever, dreamed I could separate a person from their livelihood. I still feel betrayed by how little support I received from my boss in that process. If you stop to reflect on the injuries you're being dealt, you'll eat yourself alive with rage.
There are different styles of leadership, and one of the key tricks to "managing up" (i.e. managing your boss) is to recognize how their style differs from yours. I leaned authoritative/participative, my CIO boss leaned transactional/delegative. He wasn't looking to understand what my team was accomplishing on a technical level. He was looking for divergences from his own managerial style to punish because he couldn't feel comfortable delegating to someone who thought differently. Ultimately, understanding and trying to work with him didn't permit me do the job to my own satisfaction, and it was one of the stressors that led me to quit.
Sorry for the belated reply, but your advice has really touched me. Thank you for being the professional mentor I needed for this type of situation.
Please don't take anything I say as a set of rules for succeeding in management. I took on the role because there were no good alternatives - either do it myself, or work for a guy who bragged about taking a belt to his female relatives (in addition to many other unappealing qualities). I had no training other than what I could scrape together out of books and kaffee klatsches with managers I respected.
If I did anything right, if there's anything I still respected myself for by the time I quit, it was being honest enough to expedite the exodus of talented people from a sinking ship of an employer. [I can't be more specific without de-anon, but feel free to PM with questions.]
I sincerely hope that your career circumstances give you more latitude for growth and happiness in your role.
What was the outcome? You sound extraordinarily well prepared, but I'm guessing it fell on deaf ears. Was there any explanation given for the about-turn you were given in terms of advice?
I think I kind of covered this as part of my response to /u/KneeFingers above:
Even though I'd worked a level or two down from the CIO before the management promotion, I hadn't worked with him directly before. I didn't grasp the degree to which he'd surrounded himself with people who managed others in exactly the same way as he did. To the extent that I was successful, it was because I was bridging the gaps in his strategy. That must have been very disconcerting and threatening to him. I didn't get the support I needed, and didn't see a better outcome unless I went elsewhere.
If higher-ups are worried that a woman won't return after her maternity leave, they should really be asking themselves why that is. Sort of answers itself if they make an effort to discriminate against that employee because they don't believe they'll come back.
Direct link to the study. Another article on the study which includes an interesting bit about so-called performance bonuses in a heavily women dominated field (healthcare).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1equYOr_a2kpsy37WMTsS_VXA_EtMRYT0/view?usp=drivesdk
The study for folks
I was interested in #30 (veteran status) but the article didn't bring it up (and sadly my institutional access has expired for the study) so my big question was "How does veteran status impact female leaders?"
Is this a positive, where by women are viewed better after learning of Veteran status (anecdotally, my experience) or women are viewed worse, due to combinations of other factors (hard headed, take charge, maybe even 'bitchy' stereotypes - I've seen that too.)
As usual with 'common knowledge' I'm glad there's an actual study to back it up. I felt like I didn't learn much from the article but I'm sure for someone with zero perspective or someone who needs the advice portion would get more from it.
If anyone has access to the study, I'd be interested to hear what their research found with regard to that.
Did you see @gaywallet comment linking the research?
I did, however I do not currently have academic access to the file and at $37USD is slightly higher than my curiosity for my questions.
FYI @DefinitelyNotAFae provided a link to the study for those that don't have academic access.
The study itself didn't list the word veteran at all. So I'm not sure.
I have the PDF if you have someplace you'd like me to send it
Actually, here's the measure that they used. I'm not sure where this article is getting this at all.
https://amy-diehl.com/gender-bias-scale/
Interesting! The plot thickens. I'd be interested in the PDF if it's not a hassle. Though I think the bias scale might be an easier read on my desktop! Scrolling sideways on the phone isn't the most intuitive.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1equYOr_a2kpsy37WMTsS_VXA_EtMRYT0/view?usp=drivesdk
Hopefully this link works?
I only skimmed the article but most of these don't seem specific to women, although the order would probably be different for men
What did you hope to accomplish by showing up 10 minutes after an article about research on sexism was posted to proclaim that you skimmed the article and found it inconclusive? I'm struggling to see how this is anything but dismissive - you admitted that you skimmed the article, implying you neither read it in full nor the research itself (which I linked above) before sharing your opinion.
How do you think this makes other people feel, especially women, when entering this thread?
I don't see how the timing matters, but I didn't really hope to accomplish anything beyond just sharing my opinion. I did read the full article now and i understand where the author is coming from a bit better but my initial opinion still stands. Without data from their male peers to compare to I don't think you can make a lot of these conclusions
Although now that i think about it my comment very much is noise