It seems to me like these people must be so desperately afraid all the time to feel like having a gun gives them this incredible freedom. Like, freedom to do what? What am I not free to do when...
In 2008, Owens got a permit to carry a concealed firearm, which he described as a transformative experience. “There’s a certain kind of freedom that comes with the responsibility of carrying arms that is hard to properly express to those who don’t,” he wrote. “Yes, guns can take lives. But far more often, experience truly bearing arms helps hone and reveal character.”
It seems to me like these people must be so desperately afraid all the time to feel like having a gun gives them this incredible freedom. Like, freedom to do what? What am I not free to do when I’m walking down the street without a gun?
They want people to talk to them about it. They want the attention. They've also watched too many movies where a guy with a gun is the hero. Good portion of them want to be seen as we heroes when...
They want people to talk to them about it. They want the attention. They've also watched too many movies where a guy with a gun is the hero.
Good portion of them want to be seen as we heroes when they offer throw our tyrannical government.
Open carry isn't usually legal outside of specific circumstances - going to/from a hunting or shooting event, working as armed security, etc. It varies by state, naturally. I don't personally buy...
Open carry isn't usually legal outside of specific circumstances - going to/from a hunting or shooting event, working as armed security, etc. It varies by state, naturally.
I don't personally buy the "they want attention" line of reasoning, at least as far as the majority of concealed carriers are concerned. I think there's a bit of confirmation bias in that you only notice the people who are noticeable, either because they suck at concealing their firearm or they do legitimately want to be called out.
I grew up in an open-carry state lol so it definitely varies by location. Ohio recently made it legal to concealed carry without any firearms training, but it's been legal to open carry outside of...
I grew up in an open-carry state lol so it definitely varies by location. Ohio recently made it legal to concealed carry without any firearms training, but it's been legal to open carry outside of places where it's specifically prohibited for ages. So at least in some places there can be more restrictions on concealed carry than on open carry.
They’re reframing the way having a gun helps them cope with their fear and anxiety as something more socially acceptable to them. That’s been my experience with a lot of gun owners.
They’re reframing the way having a gun helps them cope with their fear and anxiety as something more socially acceptable to them. That’s been my experience with a lot of gun owners.
The article is behind a pay wall for me, so I'm assuming this was the person referred to in the title. That person aside, one answer to your question is, "The freedom to live a life with less...
The article is behind a pay wall for me, so I'm assuming this was the person referred to in the title.
That person aside, one answer to your question is, "The freedom to live a life with less fear." I understand that this is easy to put in one's own perspective. There are different perspectives for this.
Anyone who is considerably weaker than the people who are likely to hurt them might feel this way. A non able bodied person who needs to be out and about in a place where they don't feel comfortable. A person with a stalker who is much stronger than they are. Anyone who is likely to be attacked by a group because of the way they look.
We're talking about a 46 year old white guy who lived in Fuquay-Varina, a quiet suburb about 30 minutes outside of Raleigh, North Carolina. This area was described as a middle-class neighborhood...
We're talking about a 46 year old white guy who lived in Fuquay-Varina, a quiet suburb about 30 minutes outside of Raleigh, North Carolina. This area was described as a middle-class neighborhood with fields, a brook, and a nearby park. The community where he resided was known for its good school system and well-maintained homes and lawns. How much reasonable fear should this guy have in his day to day life?
I understand there are edge cases, but how many NRA members and 2nd amendment fanatics belong to one of them, rather than just possessing a distorted perception of risk, and perhaps lost importantly, a distorted perception of how much carrying a gun impacts whatever real risk there is?
Unrelated but there are definitely some parts of Fuquay that are more rural and not as nice. For some reason a lot of the surrounding area up to 20-30 minutes outside of downtown is considered...
Unrelated but there are definitely some parts of Fuquay that are more rural and not as nice. For some reason a lot of the surrounding area up to 20-30 minutes outside of downtown is considered Fuquay still even though they're basically in the sticks.
There are definitely some sketchy areas I probably wouldn't wander into, but no I don't walk around armed. I definitely keep a gun at home though, but I'd probably do that most anywhere I live.
There are definitely some sketchy areas I probably wouldn't wander into, but no I don't walk around armed. I definitely keep a gun at home though, but I'd probably do that most anywhere I live.
God, I know that Republican doublethink is fantastic at this sort of thing, but you'd think the cognitive dissonance would be so blatantly apparent to the person in question. Sure, they're "free...
God, I know that Republican doublethink is fantastic at this sort of thing, but you'd think the cognitive dissonance would be so blatantly apparent to the person in question.
Sure, they're "free from fear," but to conceal and carry (at least, to do so legally) means giving up access to a lot of those spaces that I'm sure the gun owner holds dear, as per the standard "No Weapons" sign on the doors of practically every corporate/suburbanite box store in existence.
Trying to picture it conjures imagery of Don Quixote trying to keep his delusions alive and well.
This is not entirely a Republican thing though, Republicans make up 61% of the NRA but 20% are Democrat. Spend enough time in firearms debates and you’ll run into all sorts of second amendment...
This is not entirely a Republican thing though, Republicans make up 61% of the NRA but 20% are Democrat. Spend enough time in firearms debates and you’ll run into all sorts of second amendment enthusiasts. Self identified marxists and other left wing revolutionaries/radicals seem to be common in my experience. Many of them were out in force, open carrying of course, during the BLM protests.
The NRA is corrupt as heck and frankly doesn't give a crap about its own members, sane people are more likely to support the 2nd Amendment Foundation (2AF) or the Socialist Rifle Association (SRA).
The NRA is corrupt as heck and frankly doesn't give a crap about its own members, sane people are more likely to support the 2nd Amendment Foundation (2AF) or the Socialist Rifle Association (SRA).
They're likely SRA if they were out at the BLM protests. I do know Democrat gun nuts but the few that I know in the NRA either had their membership purchased by a well meaning relative or bought...
Self identified marxists and other left wing revolutionaries/radicals seem to be common in my experience.
They're likely SRA if they were out at the BLM protests. I do know Democrat gun nuts but the few that I know in the NRA either had their membership purchased by a well meaning relative or bought it without knowing about the NRA as an organization...
Granted, I don't know every Democrat in the NRA so it's entirely possible that someone could be a BLM supporter and active NRA member. Pew is usually good about things but that's also based on respondents to the survey, ya know?
I think this is the most literal and correct way to interpret the quote. I have never carried, but I do think carrying IS a huge responsibility. And I know anecdotally that having a big feeling of...
I think this is the most literal and correct way to interpret the quote.
I have never carried, but I do think carrying IS a huge responsibility. And I know anecdotally that having a big feeling of responsibility can be freeing and transformative (lately I hear this a lot about parenthood).
So I don't think it's fair to misinterpret the quote to say that the speaker doesn't feel free without carrying a gun
I have a concealed carry permit and do often carry, and I agree with this. The course I had to take in order to apply for my permit was quite eye opening of just how much responsibility you have,...
I have a concealed carry permit and do often carry, and I agree with this. The course I had to take in order to apply for my permit was quite eye opening of just how much responsibility you have, and how narrow of a situation you have to be in in order to have justification for the use of deadly force.
I wouldn't describe it as freeing, but just like I cary a pocket knife and a mini keyring screw driver in the event that I need to fix something, a firearm is a tool available in the event that my wife or I are imminent danger with no way to escape.
I realize that carrying a firearm isn't a very popular thing to do among the demographic population of this website. But not all gun owners are Republican nut jobs. There are plenty of us Democrats who own and carry guns but are also in favor of reform.
I think there's a lot of people out there who feel like they lack purpose lately. I'm not an American, but I could see carrying a weapon as meaningful; you have to adhere to certain conduct, hold...
And I know anecdotally that having a big feeling of responsibility can be freeing and transformative
I think there's a lot of people out there who feel like they lack purpose lately.
I'm not an American, but I could see carrying a weapon as meaningful; you have to adhere to certain conduct, hold it a certain way, take proper care to secure it. Etc.
I agree, and I've heard no shortage of explanations for it. But I haven't been alive long enough to have a proper perspective on it. Perhaps? I view a gun (one that is carried, specifically) as a...
I think there's a lot of people out there who feel like they lack purpose lately.
I agree, and I've heard no shortage of explanations for it. But I haven't been alive long enough to have a proper perspective on it.
I could see carrying a weapon as meaningful
Perhaps? I view a gun (one that is carried, specifically) as a tool. I certainly have a relationship with my tools and find joy in maintaining them. But they derive their meaning from what I can do with them. A tool that's never used isn't really a tool, it's a collectible or hobby or whatever. Which is fine. But carrying a weapon you're not ready or able to use isn't fine.
A gun carried concealed could be used (to try) to protect yourself, or your family, or to end the suffering of an animal struck by a car. All those have meaning, and I think to find purpose in carrying for the sake of carrying is to lose perspective on those meanings.
I can't speak to whether this is the correct way to interpet the quote, but I don't think it's the most literal way to assume that he means "responsibility" when he says "freedom". I do think the...
I can't speak to whether this is the correct way to interpet the quote, but I don't think it's the most literal way to assume that he means "responsibility" when he says "freedom". I do think the latter half about revealing character relates to responsibility, but I don't think it's typical to equate responsibility with a feeling of freedom, and I would expect someone expressing that idea to be more explicit about it.
I don't think that I'm assuming that. I'm not substituting "responsibility" for "freedom" in his quote since he uses both terms in the same expression. I do think he is fairly explicit when he...
assume that he means "responsibility" when he says "freedom"
I don't think that I'm assuming that. I'm not substituting "responsibility" for "freedom" in his quote since he uses both terms in the same expression.
I don't think it's typical to equate responsibility with a feeling of freedom, and I would expect someone expressing that idea to be more explicit about it.
I do think he is fairly explicit when he says
freedom that comes with the responsibility of carrying arms
I think the root comment interpreted the quote to say something like
There’s a certain kind of freedom that comes with carrying arms
but I don't think that's what he meant, or what he literally said.
I think some of it comes from a lot of people having a really distorted view on reality when it comes to danger which comes from reporting as well as film/TV (e.g. police procedurals where what...
I think some of it comes from a lot of people having a really distorted view on reality when it comes to danger which comes from reporting as well as film/TV (e.g. police procedurals where what actually happens is totally unrealistic – e.g. everyone who acts even slightly shiftily is a serial killer and the worst possible thing always happens).
Another part is about wanting to feel in control – it's pretty hard to have an impact on resolving structural problems which are major causes of danger (but often unacknowledged because they aren't flashy and dramatic killers) such as e.g. deficits in building control (which results in lots of deaths when people fall down the stairs because the steps aren't the correct height/width) whereas anyone can pick up a firearm and feel powerful. I thought it was interesting that Christine (the wife) stated she thought that guns have nothing to do with his death, and rather that men are taught not to express any vulnerability without thinking that the two might be connected (of course it's very possible that she thinks this privately).
That perspective is so crazy to me, and I don’t identify with it at all. I carried a rifle every single day for long periods of time during a long career in the military, and it doesn’t give you a...
That perspective is so crazy to me, and I don’t identify with it at all. I carried a rifle every single day for long periods of time during a long career in the military, and it doesn’t give you a sense of freedom at all. Quite the opposite actually. It’s a leash, or a liability most of the time. It’s drilled into you so often that you should never been more than an arms reach from your rifle, you should always know it’s status at all times, and you should always be aware of the direction it’s pointing, such that anyone I’ve talked to that’s been in a ground combat service for any significant period of time has moments of absolute panic that they don’t have their rifle with them even years after they’ve left the military.
There are of course many times I was glad I had it, but it still always felt like a yoke around my neck most of the time.
As a civilian, I have firearms but never carry them out and about, because that sheer sense of responsibility and stress isn’t something I would ever want to deal with in a day to day basis. People who talk like the op in the article do about carrying firearms kind of worry me, because feeling a sense of freedom from carrying a lethal weapon tells me you’re probably not giving the responsibility you take on by carrying it the care it deserves.
A lot depends on your life situation and even political situation in your country too. In totalitarian states like China, Korea or Russia, one can understand the freedom (or more importantly the...
A lot depends on your life situation and even political situation in your country too. In totalitarian states like China, Korea or Russia, one can understand the freedom (or more importantly the survival advantage) of having a gun, especially if you have a dissident or freedom loving tendency. But in liberal countries like America/EU? How much more freedom can one want, those are literally the free-est countries in the world, at least from what I've heard or read in popular media.
For many gun owners it isn't necessarily a sense of fear, but a sense of preparedness and caution. I wouldn't accuse someone of being desperately afraid if they locked their doors, installed a CO...
For many gun owners it isn't necessarily a sense of fear, but a sense of preparedness and caution. I wouldn't accuse someone of being desperately afraid if they locked their doors, installed a CO2 CO sensor in their basement, or took a self defense class. You'll often find a healthy crossover between gun owners and preppers of various degrees - people who store extra food and water and so on.
I never really had a "transformative" moment and view carrying more as a burden then some sort of energetic freedom. I can put myself in the mindset where I understand what they are describing though.
Of course not, but I would if they said things like
I wouldn't accuse someone of being desperately afraid if they locked their doors, installed a CO2 sensor in their basement, or took a self defense class.
Of course not, but I would if they said things like
In 2008, Owens got a CO2 sensor in his basement, which he described as a transformative experience. “There’s a certain kind of freedom that comes with having a CO2 sensor that is hard to properly express to those who don’t,” he wrote. “Yes, false alarms can be annoying. But far more often, experience with CO2 sensors helps hone and reveal character.”
That gave me a bit of a chuckle, thanks. It does illustrate some of the issues of the culture and identity of gun ownership relative to something else that would be considered a safety measure, if...
In 2008, Owens got a CO2 sensor in his basement, which he described as a transformative experience. “There’s a certain kind of freedom that comes with having a CO2 sensor that is hard to properly express to those who don’t,” he wrote. “Yes, false alarms can be annoying. But far more often, experience with CO2 sensors helps hone and reveal character.”
That gave me a bit of a chuckle, thanks. It does illustrate some of the issues of the culture and identity of gun ownership relative to something else that would be considered a safety measure, if you were going to compare them on that basis anyhow.
I also wonder if it somehow comes into play that there's no threat, real or imagined, that the government is going to take away your carbon monoxide detectors (I assume they actually meant CO detector and not CO2). I don't think it's fully an imagined concern, and presumably there would be a reason why some type of gun possession in whatever circumstance it was intending that it was enshrined into the bill of rights - meaning that the perceived threat to possession of these weapons isn't recent. It could distinguish why some people might feel a certain way about a gun that they wouldn't feel about a carbon monoxide detector, because there's people who feel they need to defend it in a way that they don't other devices intended for safety.
I think a little bit more self-awareness might keep people from going overboard with that, where you can defend something without it being a "transformative experience". Though from my perspective I often see it more as something that gets distorted as time goes on and its passed from generation to generation. It could be someone telling their kids Obama tried to take their guns away, which of course isn't true but kids don't necessarily know that, and growing up within that worldview shapes their relationship with guns. If you take that back through history it could explain how we've arrived to where we are today. Yet it could have started with something true, but just over time it morphs into something else.
This is tangential to your point and maybe this is me not being knowledgeable enough, but why would you want a CO2 sensor in your basement? Afaik they just indicate whether you're getting enough...
This is tangential to your point and maybe this is me not being knowledgeable enough, but why would you want a CO2 sensor in your basement? Afaik they just indicate whether you're getting enough airflow, which you'd probably want to have more in your living/working areas than in a basement. Were you meaning to refer to a carbon monoxide detector or maybe a radon detector? Or is there something more serious that you'd want a CO2 sensor for that I'm not aware of?
sincerely,
person who wants to know if there are more gases to be scared of
My partner's brother is like this. He plays "the man" (has a big, aggressive dog; owns guns; "takes care" of his family; put up cameras all over his house) and I never really got it. Then one...
My partner's brother is like this. He plays "the man" (has a big, aggressive dog; owns guns; "takes care" of his family; put up cameras all over his house) and I never really got it. Then one Christmas I had a fun, alcohol fueled conversation with their mom. She went on a long giggle fit about trying to take him up to the city by where we grew up when they were young. She said he refused to get out of the car because homeless people scared him so much. That he was scared of a lot of things. The next Thanksgiving, one without their parents present, I learned that his dad used a LOT of corporal punishment growing up and that they just don't address it. I'll probably never get it but I think there is some combination of fear of strangers and admiration of violence that spawn this kind of thinking. He sees his dad as good, successful person and I think he revers him regardless of what happened during their childhood. It's honestly really sad. Just hoping he breaks the cycle with his own son who is currently a little bundle of laughs and joy!
Wow. While I knew that suicide by gun is fairly lethal and contribute to impulsive suicides more than other methods, I'd never heard about the statistics of gun suicide versus homicide before. The...
Wow. While I knew that suicide by gun is fairly lethal and contribute to impulsive suicides more than other methods, I'd never heard about the statistics of gun suicide versus homicide before. The fact that the vast majority of gun-related deaths in Kellerman's initial suicides were suicide really just kind of surprised me.
This article does a good job at breaking down all the factors with how it relates to mental health, and the NRA quashing any attempts to mention or discuss the topic since it's negative. Just really highlights how callous the NRA is about life when it comes to preserving gun rights. We've seen it plenty with how they push narratives around every single mass shooting to downplay the role of guns, but to attack concerns over guns' relation to suicide? Even their own employees committing suicide can get minimal acknowledgment from them.
Side-note: I'm actually not anti-2A and support responsible gun ownership—emphasis on responsible. The NRA most definitely does NOT care about responsible and safe gun ownership though, just the right to arm... well, crazy people. Just look at this excerpt:
At the NRA’s 2015 annual meeting, in Nashville, Tennessee, Dave Grossman held a seminar called “Sheepdogs! The Bulletproof Mind for the Armed Citizen.” “Of all the violence we could engage in, violence to protect our families, to protect our children, is what we’re wired to do,” he told attendees. “You are the Special Forces. We are at war.”
Outright telling people they're at war is just disturbing. And this was back in 2015, before the ultra right-wing movement really started getting crazy.
A running theme of the article is about how a lot of the gun culture, especially that pushed by the NRA, centers around imaginary enemies and threats. It feels like the NRA runs on a platform of fear and paranoia of threats that a majority of gun owners probably won't ever actually encounter, just a vague "what if" hypothetical—and that level of paranoia just isn't healthy. A psychiatrist interviewed by the writer mentioned how many of his subjects "imagined a threat around every corner," and that mindset just permeates the whole movement.
That sort of paranoia will bleed into everything. The stress will forever keep mounting because you're seeing the whole world as a potential enemy. It reminds me of a friend with bad anxiety issues, and how they became cynical about pretty much everything back around the 2020 election. Even when not thinking about politics, they were only seeing the absolute worst in people and media, to the point they couldn't enjoy some of their favorite movies anymore and vilified their parents in their head for liking sitcoms and football. It was made worse by the fact they were actively going out of their way to find opinions they disagreed with and causing them stress.
It was really stressful dealing with them during 2020, when talking to them you'd think that America was going to break out into full-fledged war any day... and that was just their own brain being stupid and screwing them over.
The NRA, and gun culture in general, encourages that sort of paranoia. Even when you're not talking about gun rights, you're going to be constantly on edge. They're constantly looking for an "enemy," whether it be a literal foe they can heroically vanquish to save the day, or someone who says the slightest negative thing about gun ownership. It's truly an "us" versus "them" mentality, with absolutely no space in between: either you support the right to own every gun from a handgun to a machine gun with zero restrictions, or you're an enemy who wants to destroy gun ownership forever and probably kicks puppies for fun.
Bob Owens was right to say that working for the NRA was a lifestyle more than a job, but it's one of the worst lifestyles.
And here's the paragraph that really caught my attention:
Jacques does not think the gun industry holds any responsibility for Bob’s death, or for gun suicide in general. “It really is a shame people may not be as comfortable reaching out for help because we’re attacked by the gun-control movement,” Jacques told me. Gutowski, the journalist who was friends with Owens, said that many gun owners are afraid to tell doctors about their mental-health struggles, because they worry someone will take their weapons away.
That's just... That's just beyond sad to me. That these people are in such awful mental states, and some of them know it, yet their first and primary concern is their guns. They refuse to get help because they fear losing their guns. And it's also terrifying because they have guns. They feel "attacked by the gun control movement," and they're living in a culture that's basically built on paranoia over hypothetical enemies that can attack at any moment, and they have guns. Suicide is one of the better scenarios.
Just... Really makes me disgusted at the NRA and gun culture as a whole. I do agree with Bob Owens' wife that his suicide isn't really a cautionary tale about gun ownership, but for a different reason: it's just an example of how much gun culture poisons people's minds to see everyone as an enemy.
I posted about this in a previous thread I'm not going to mention, so I'll just rework what I said there: There is a slideshow/PDF from UC Davis (sourced from NYTimes) that shows a chart on page 4...
The fact that the vast majority of gun-related deaths in Kellerman's initial suicides were suicide really just kind of surprised me.
I posted about this in a previous thread I'm not going to mention, so I'll just rework what I said there:
There is a slideshow/PDF from UC Davis (sourced from NYTimes) that shows a chart on page 4 comparing homicides by firearm to suicides by firearm. Homicide rates from firearms were generally higher in the 80s and 90s than in the past 10 years leading up to 2019 (the latest year in that chart). But the number of suicide fatalities by firearm has always been the same or higher than that of homicides from 1981-2019 (as a per capita figure). Always. The slideshow shows some other interesting things, like comparing vehicle deaths to firearm related deaths (suicides and homicides together), and at what ages people of different ethnicities are most likely to be killed by firearm violence. It also shows death rates of males and females at different ages.
A psychiatrist interviewed by the writer mentioned how many of his subjects "imagined a threat around every corner," and that mindset just permeates the whole movement.
That sort of paranoia will bleed into everything.
It does and it did. There is an absolutely fascinating series of posts/threads I recall reading on /r/AskHistorians a while back, I'm not sure if I found the right ones, but these that I've dredged up discuss firearm rights as a political wedge issue and the changes since the 1968 Gun Control Act as well as a thread on the Waco standoff or siege. The Waco thread brings up a national poll that was taken and compared support for government involvement at the time of the crisis (1993) to a poll in 1999 looking back on whether people felt the government was justified. Public sentiment had shifted over that time period and obviously there had been political fallout regarding how things had gone down. The ATF was criticized and people resigned, among other things (another web.archive.org version of an AskHistorians link). So there was a shift in sentiment, and also perspective, in people suddenly saying "the government could to that to me." And they'd seen it happen live on TV for a month.
But these changes in gun control, the preaching of a threat around every corner, and what I would call a sort of foundation for paranoia, had all been incrementally infringing on our society's perspective and health since the 1960s. There are a lot of factors that can tie into the rise of gun violence in the US and the shift towards viewing firearms not only as a utility but as a means of essential protection from the government and the unknown while also bolstering a person's self-assessed masculinity (or feminine desirability, because that's a thing, too).
Thanks for sharing, for me it was a moving article. I think it's far too easy to see someone who works at the NRA and shoots themself as getting their comeuppance. The author really took the time...
Thanks for sharing, for me it was a moving article. I think it's far too easy to see someone who works at the NRA and shoots themself as getting their comeuppance. The author really took the time to show the complexities of these people, which is key for understanding mental health. After reading this, you have to reconsider your interpretation of that gun obsessed acquaintance of yours. Maybe instead of judging them as taken in by a toxic fantasy of killing someone else, they really just want to have the option to take their own life at any time.
I wonder what the balance of life-years is for people who know they have a readily accessible emergency exit from the land of the living compared to those who do not. How many say “maybe next...
I wonder what the balance of life-years is for people who know they have a readily accessible emergency exit from the land of the living compared to those who do not.
How many say “maybe next week, but not today” instead of ending it at the first sign on incurable trouble?
I agree. Suicide is a largely impulsive activity and hsving a specialized tool nearby makes it easy. I'd feel more remorse if his actions didn't continue the cycle of pointless shootings. Now I'm...
I agree. Suicide is a largely impulsive activity and hsving a specialized tool nearby makes it easy.
I'd feel more remorse if his actions didn't continue the cycle of pointless shootings. Now I'm thankful he spared us of a few cycles of voting.
It seems to me like these people must be so desperately afraid all the time to feel like having a gun gives them this incredible freedom. Like, freedom to do what? What am I not free to do when I’m walking down the street without a gun?
They want people to talk to them about it. They want the attention. They've also watched too many movies where a guy with a gun is the hero.
Good portion of them want to be seen as we heroes when they offer throw our tyrannical government.
Why concealed carry, then? Open carry would be more effective on that front.
Open carry isn't usually legal outside of specific circumstances - going to/from a hunting or shooting event, working as armed security, etc. It varies by state, naturally.
I don't personally buy the "they want attention" line of reasoning, at least as far as the majority of concealed carriers are concerned. I think there's a bit of confirmation bias in that you only notice the people who are noticeable, either because they suck at concealing their firearm or they do legitimately want to be called out.
I grew up in an open-carry state lol so it definitely varies by location. Ohio recently made it legal to concealed carry without any firearms training, but it's been legal to open carry outside of places where it's specifically prohibited for ages. So at least in some places there can be more restrictions on concealed carry than on open carry.
They’re reframing the way having a gun helps them cope with their fear and anxiety as something more socially acceptable to them. That’s been my experience with a lot of gun owners.
The article is behind a pay wall for me, so I'm assuming this was the person referred to in the title.
That person aside, one answer to your question is, "The freedom to live a life with less fear." I understand that this is easy to put in one's own perspective. There are different perspectives for this.
Anyone who is considerably weaker than the people who are likely to hurt them might feel this way. A non able bodied person who needs to be out and about in a place where they don't feel comfortable. A person with a stalker who is much stronger than they are. Anyone who is likely to be attacked by a group because of the way they look.
Edit: Just found the mirror.
We're talking about a 46 year old white guy who lived in Fuquay-Varina, a quiet suburb about 30 minutes outside of Raleigh, North Carolina. This area was described as a middle-class neighborhood with fields, a brook, and a nearby park. The community where he resided was known for its good school system and well-maintained homes and lawns. How much reasonable fear should this guy have in his day to day life?
I understand there are edge cases, but how many NRA members and 2nd amendment fanatics belong to one of them, rather than just possessing a distorted perception of risk, and perhaps lost importantly, a distorted perception of how much carrying a gun impacts whatever real risk there is?
Unrelated but there are definitely some parts of Fuquay that are more rural and not as nice. For some reason a lot of the surrounding area up to 20-30 minutes outside of downtown is considered Fuquay still even though they're basically in the sticks.
Source: I live very nearby
And is it necessary in those rural areas to go armed to ensure your life, livelihood, and property? How at risk is a local in those areas?
There are definitely some sketchy areas I probably wouldn't wander into, but no I don't walk around armed. I definitely keep a gun at home though, but I'd probably do that most anywhere I live.
God, I know that Republican doublethink is fantastic at this sort of thing, but you'd think the cognitive dissonance would be so blatantly apparent to the person in question.
Sure, they're "free from fear," but to conceal and carry (at least, to do so legally) means giving up access to a lot of those spaces that I'm sure the gun owner holds dear, as per the standard "No Weapons" sign on the doors of practically every corporate/suburbanite box store in existence.
Trying to picture it conjures imagery of Don Quixote trying to keep his delusions alive and well.
This is not entirely a Republican thing though, Republicans make up 61% of the NRA but 20% are Democrat. Spend enough time in firearms debates and you’ll run into all sorts of second amendment enthusiasts. Self identified marxists and other left wing revolutionaries/radicals seem to be common in my experience. Many of them were out in force, open carrying of course, during the BLM protests.
The NRA is corrupt as heck and frankly doesn't give a crap about its own members, sane people are more likely to support the 2nd Amendment Foundation (2AF) or the Socialist Rifle Association (SRA).
They're likely SRA if they were out at the BLM protests. I do know Democrat gun nuts but the few that I know in the NRA either had their membership purchased by a well meaning relative or bought it without knowing about the NRA as an organization...
Granted, I don't know every Democrat in the NRA so it's entirely possible that someone could be a BLM supporter and active NRA member. Pew is usually good about things but that's also based on respondents to the survey, ya know?
You can read the article here: https://archive.is/RMQER
Thank you
That would make me feel less free, if anything. I would hate having to take a gun with me (or have one in my home) in order to feel safe.
Perhaps it's a feeling of responsibility.
I think this is the most literal and correct way to interpret the quote.
I have never carried, but I do think carrying IS a huge responsibility. And I know anecdotally that having a big feeling of responsibility can be freeing and transformative (lately I hear this a lot about parenthood).
So I don't think it's fair to misinterpret the quote to say that the speaker doesn't feel free without carrying a gun
I have a concealed carry permit and do often carry, and I agree with this. The course I had to take in order to apply for my permit was quite eye opening of just how much responsibility you have, and how narrow of a situation you have to be in in order to have justification for the use of deadly force.
I wouldn't describe it as freeing, but just like I cary a pocket knife and a mini keyring screw driver in the event that I need to fix something, a firearm is a tool available in the event that my wife or I are imminent danger with no way to escape.
I realize that carrying a firearm isn't a very popular thing to do among the demographic population of this website. But not all gun owners are Republican nut jobs. There are plenty of us Democrats who own and carry guns but are also in favor of reform.
I think there's a lot of people out there who feel like they lack purpose lately.
I'm not an American, but I could see carrying a weapon as meaningful; you have to adhere to certain conduct, hold it a certain way, take proper care to secure it. Etc.
I agree, and I've heard no shortage of explanations for it. But I haven't been alive long enough to have a proper perspective on it.
Perhaps? I view a gun (one that is carried, specifically) as a tool. I certainly have a relationship with my tools and find joy in maintaining them. But they derive their meaning from what I can do with them. A tool that's never used isn't really a tool, it's a collectible or hobby or whatever. Which is fine. But carrying a weapon you're not ready or able to use isn't fine.
A gun carried concealed could be used (to try) to protect yourself, or your family, or to end the suffering of an animal struck by a car. All those have meaning, and I think to find purpose in carrying for the sake of carrying is to lose perspective on those meanings.
I can't speak to whether this is the correct way to interpet the quote, but I don't think it's the most literal way to assume that he means "responsibility" when he says "freedom". I do think the latter half about revealing character relates to responsibility, but I don't think it's typical to equate responsibility with a feeling of freedom, and I would expect someone expressing that idea to be more explicit about it.
I don't think that I'm assuming that. I'm not substituting "responsibility" for "freedom" in his quote since he uses both terms in the same expression.
I do think he is fairly explicit when he says
I think the root comment interpreted the quote to say something like
but I don't think that's what he meant, or what he literally said.
I think some of it comes from a lot of people having a really distorted view on reality when it comes to danger which comes from reporting as well as film/TV (e.g. police procedurals where what actually happens is totally unrealistic – e.g. everyone who acts even slightly shiftily is a serial killer and the worst possible thing always happens).
Another part is about wanting to feel in control – it's pretty hard to have an impact on resolving structural problems which are major causes of danger (but often unacknowledged because they aren't flashy and dramatic killers) such as e.g. deficits in building control (which results in lots of deaths when people fall down the stairs because the steps aren't the correct height/width) whereas anyone can pick up a firearm and feel powerful. I thought it was interesting that Christine (the wife) stated she thought that guns have nothing to do with his death, and rather that men are taught not to express any vulnerability without thinking that the two might be connected (of course it's very possible that she thinks this privately).
That perspective is so crazy to me, and I don’t identify with it at all. I carried a rifle every single day for long periods of time during a long career in the military, and it doesn’t give you a sense of freedom at all. Quite the opposite actually. It’s a leash, or a liability most of the time. It’s drilled into you so often that you should never been more than an arms reach from your rifle, you should always know it’s status at all times, and you should always be aware of the direction it’s pointing, such that anyone I’ve talked to that’s been in a ground combat service for any significant period of time has moments of absolute panic that they don’t have their rifle with them even years after they’ve left the military.
There are of course many times I was glad I had it, but it still always felt like a yoke around my neck most of the time.
As a civilian, I have firearms but never carry them out and about, because that sheer sense of responsibility and stress isn’t something I would ever want to deal with in a day to day basis. People who talk like the op in the article do about carrying firearms kind of worry me, because feeling a sense of freedom from carrying a lethal weapon tells me you’re probably not giving the responsibility you take on by carrying it the care it deserves.
A lot depends on your life situation and even political situation in your country too. In totalitarian states like China, Korea or Russia, one can understand the freedom (or more importantly the survival advantage) of having a gun, especially if you have a dissident or freedom loving tendency. But in liberal countries like America/EU? How much more freedom can one want, those are literally the free-est countries in the world, at least from what I've heard or read in popular media.
For many gun owners it isn't necessarily a sense of fear, but a sense of preparedness and caution. I wouldn't accuse someone of being desperately afraid if they locked their doors, installed a
CO2CO sensor in their basement, or took a self defense class. You'll often find a healthy crossover between gun owners and preppers of various degrees - people who store extra food and water and so on.I never really had a "transformative" moment and view carrying more as a burden then some sort of energetic freedom. I can put myself in the mindset where I understand what they are describing though.
Of course not, but I would if they said things like
That gave me a bit of a chuckle, thanks. It does illustrate some of the issues of the culture and identity of gun ownership relative to something else that would be considered a safety measure, if you were going to compare them on that basis anyhow.
I also wonder if it somehow comes into play that there's no threat, real or imagined, that the government is going to take away your carbon monoxide detectors (I assume they actually meant CO detector and not CO2). I don't think it's fully an imagined concern, and presumably there would be a reason why some type of gun possession in whatever circumstance it was intending that it was enshrined into the bill of rights - meaning that the perceived threat to possession of these weapons isn't recent. It could distinguish why some people might feel a certain way about a gun that they wouldn't feel about a carbon monoxide detector, because there's people who feel they need to defend it in a way that they don't other devices intended for safety.
I think a little bit more self-awareness might keep people from going overboard with that, where you can defend something without it being a "transformative experience". Though from my perspective I often see it more as something that gets distorted as time goes on and its passed from generation to generation. It could be someone telling their kids Obama tried to take their guns away, which of course isn't true but kids don't necessarily know that, and growing up within that worldview shapes their relationship with guns. If you take that back through history it could explain how we've arrived to where we are today. Yet it could have started with something true, but just over time it morphs into something else.
This is tangential to your point and maybe this is me not being knowledgeable enough, but why would you want a CO2 sensor in your basement? Afaik they just indicate whether you're getting enough airflow, which you'd probably want to have more in your living/working areas than in a basement. Were you meaning to refer to a carbon monoxide detector or maybe a radon detector? Or is there something more serious that you'd want a CO2 sensor for that I'm not aware of?
sincerely,
person who wants to know if there are more gases to be scared of
I meant CO, carbon monoxide. It can be useful in areas with open flame - furnaces, water heaters etc
ah okay glad it's one of the ones I knew about already 😅 basement CO makes total sense
My partner's brother is like this. He plays "the man" (has a big, aggressive dog; owns guns; "takes care" of his family; put up cameras all over his house) and I never really got it. Then one Christmas I had a fun, alcohol fueled conversation with their mom. She went on a long giggle fit about trying to take him up to the city by where we grew up when they were young. She said he refused to get out of the car because homeless people scared him so much. That he was scared of a lot of things. The next Thanksgiving, one without their parents present, I learned that his dad used a LOT of corporal punishment growing up and that they just don't address it. I'll probably never get it but I think there is some combination of fear of strangers and admiration of violence that spawn this kind of thinking. He sees his dad as good, successful person and I think he revers him regardless of what happened during their childhood. It's honestly really sad. Just hoping he breaks the cycle with his own son who is currently a little bundle of laughs and joy!
Wow. While I knew that suicide by gun is fairly lethal and contribute to impulsive suicides more than other methods, I'd never heard about the statistics of gun suicide versus homicide before. The fact that the vast majority of gun-related deaths in Kellerman's initial suicides were suicide really just kind of surprised me.
This article does a good job at breaking down all the factors with how it relates to mental health, and the NRA quashing any attempts to mention or discuss the topic since it's negative. Just really highlights how callous the NRA is about life when it comes to preserving gun rights. We've seen it plenty with how they push narratives around every single mass shooting to downplay the role of guns, but to attack concerns over guns' relation to suicide? Even their own employees committing suicide can get minimal acknowledgment from them.
Side-note: I'm actually not anti-2A and support responsible gun ownership—emphasis on responsible. The NRA most definitely does NOT care about responsible and safe gun ownership though, just the right to arm... well, crazy people. Just look at this excerpt:
Outright telling people they're at war is just disturbing. And this was back in 2015, before the ultra right-wing movement really started getting crazy.
A running theme of the article is about how a lot of the gun culture, especially that pushed by the NRA, centers around imaginary enemies and threats. It feels like the NRA runs on a platform of fear and paranoia of threats that a majority of gun owners probably won't ever actually encounter, just a vague "what if" hypothetical—and that level of paranoia just isn't healthy. A psychiatrist interviewed by the writer mentioned how many of his subjects "imagined a threat around every corner," and that mindset just permeates the whole movement.
That sort of paranoia will bleed into everything. The stress will forever keep mounting because you're seeing the whole world as a potential enemy. It reminds me of a friend with bad anxiety issues, and how they became cynical about pretty much everything back around the 2020 election. Even when not thinking about politics, they were only seeing the absolute worst in people and media, to the point they couldn't enjoy some of their favorite movies anymore and vilified their parents in their head for liking sitcoms and football. It was made worse by the fact they were actively going out of their way to find opinions they disagreed with and causing them stress.
It was really stressful dealing with them during 2020, when talking to them you'd think that America was going to break out into full-fledged war any day... and that was just their own brain being stupid and screwing them over.
The NRA, and gun culture in general, encourages that sort of paranoia. Even when you're not talking about gun rights, you're going to be constantly on edge. They're constantly looking for an "enemy," whether it be a literal foe they can heroically vanquish to save the day, or someone who says the slightest negative thing about gun ownership. It's truly an "us" versus "them" mentality, with absolutely no space in between: either you support the right to own every gun from a handgun to a machine gun with zero restrictions, or you're an enemy who wants to destroy gun ownership forever and probably kicks puppies for fun.
Bob Owens was right to say that working for the NRA was a lifestyle more than a job, but it's one of the worst lifestyles.
And here's the paragraph that really caught my attention:
That's just... That's just beyond sad to me. That these people are in such awful mental states, and some of them know it, yet their first and primary concern is their guns. They refuse to get help because they fear losing their guns. And it's also terrifying because they have guns. They feel "attacked by the gun control movement," and they're living in a culture that's basically built on paranoia over hypothetical enemies that can attack at any moment, and they have guns. Suicide is one of the better scenarios.
Just... Really makes me disgusted at the NRA and gun culture as a whole. I do agree with Bob Owens' wife that his suicide isn't really a cautionary tale about gun ownership, but for a different reason: it's just an example of how much gun culture poisons people's minds to see everyone as an enemy.
I posted about this in a previous thread I'm not going to mention, so I'll just rework what I said there:
There is a slideshow/PDF from UC Davis (sourced from NYTimes) that shows a chart on page 4 comparing homicides by firearm to suicides by firearm. Homicide rates from firearms were generally higher in the 80s and 90s than in the past 10 years leading up to 2019 (the latest year in that chart). But the number of suicide fatalities by firearm has always been the same or higher than that of homicides from 1981-2019 (as a per capita figure). Always. The slideshow shows some other interesting things, like comparing vehicle deaths to firearm related deaths (suicides and homicides together), and at what ages people of different ethnicities are most likely to be killed by firearm violence. It also shows death rates of males and females at different ages.
It does and it did. There is an absolutely fascinating series of posts/threads I recall reading on /r/AskHistorians a while back, I'm not sure if I found the right ones, but these that I've dredged up discuss firearm rights as a political wedge issue and the changes since the 1968 Gun Control Act as well as a thread on the Waco standoff or siege. The Waco thread brings up a national poll that was taken and compared support for government involvement at the time of the crisis (1993) to a poll in 1999 looking back on whether people felt the government was justified. Public sentiment had shifted over that time period and obviously there had been political fallout regarding how things had gone down. The ATF was criticized and people resigned, among other things (another web.archive.org version of an AskHistorians link). So there was a shift in sentiment, and also perspective, in people suddenly saying "the government could to that to me." And they'd seen it happen live on TV for a month.
But these changes in gun control, the preaching of a threat around every corner, and what I would call a sort of foundation for paranoia, had all been incrementally infringing on our society's perspective and health since the 1960s. There are a lot of factors that can tie into the rise of gun violence in the US and the shift towards viewing firearms not only as a utility but as a means of essential protection from the government and the unknown while also bolstering a person's self-assessed masculinity (or feminine desirability, because that's a thing, too).
Thanks for sharing, for me it was a moving article. I think it's far too easy to see someone who works at the NRA and shoots themself as getting their comeuppance. The author really took the time to show the complexities of these people, which is key for understanding mental health. After reading this, you have to reconsider your interpretation of that gun obsessed acquaintance of yours. Maybe instead of judging them as taken in by a toxic fantasy of killing someone else, they really just want to have the option to take their own life at any time.
I wonder what the balance of life-years is for people who know they have a readily accessible emergency exit from the land of the living compared to those who do not.
How many say “maybe next week, but not today” instead of ending it at the first sign on incurable trouble?
I agree. Suicide is a largely impulsive activity and hsving a specialized tool nearby makes it easy.
I'd feel more remorse if his actions didn't continue the cycle of pointless shootings. Now I'm thankful he spared us of a few cycles of voting.
Mirror, for those hit by the paywall:
https://archive.is/RMQER