I'm not sure what the context of this is, I suppose it's intentionally generic, but it seems to imply airlines, and from everything I know it's the opposite: the only way to get anything done with...
I'm not sure what the context of this is, I suppose it's intentionally generic, but it seems to imply airlines, and from everything I know it's the opposite: the only way to get anything done with airline support is to call them and be very firm until they fix the issue. They actually do have the power to fix you. Just don't do chat support - those are powerless.
Also, it's a bit rich to pose it as a "America vs Japan" thing. Japanese customer support can be even more powerless. You can't even modify an item on the menu (can I have this without tomatoes?) at a restaurant with the server bringing their manager over - that's because low level employees at Japanese companies infamously have literally 0 power and cannot go beyond their script at all. Japanese bureaucracy is famously tedious, uncompromising, and kafka-esque.
I'd heard about that being a problem re. dietary restrictions, but that it was moreso a cultural expectation w.r.t. chefs and whatnot, not a hierarchical issue? Haven't ever been there myself,...
You can't even modify an item on the menu (can I have this without tomatoes?) at a restaurant with the server bringing their manager over [...]
I'd heard about that being a problem re. dietary restrictions, but that it was moreso a cultural expectation w.r.t. chefs and whatnot, not a hierarchical issue? Haven't ever been there myself, though, and having no power to deal with difficult customers sounds awful (though I suppose North America has its fair share of similar issues).
Context: Ruriko, the author's wife, is Japanese, and has different expectations about customer service than most Americans: [...]
Context: Ruriko, the author's wife, is Japanese, and has different expectations about customer service than most Americans:
Ruriko and I, discussing how to help a third party: Ruriko: Oh you should call customer service for them. Me: It is because I want to help that I will not call customer service. I will write for them. Ruriko: Phone much faster and you can get company to agree on resolution.
Me: In this country it is very important you have a written record of agreed resolution. Ruriko: So call and ask for a receipt after it’s done. Me: No, if you don’t have the written record, it might not happen. With fairly high probability. Ruriko: What so the company *forgets.*
Me: Well it will look from the outside as if the company is forgetting. Internally it can be a miscommunication, the rep not having a clear pathway to achieve the agreed-upon resolution, or the rep saying something to get you off the phone for metrics. Ruriko: Saying right thing?
Me: Could be fibbing. Ruriko: Clearly they cannot lie at scale. Me: Contingent on being in the small percentage of customers with rare problems the likelihood that an offered resolution is confabulated is actually fairly high. Hence, paper. Ruriko: This is madness. Me: I know.
Third party (TP): They kept telling me “We’re sorry. This almost never happens.” Me: Second part is true as it goes, relative to total number of customers. TP: But why say that when it actually did happen to me. Me: Cheap way to mollify you. Many similarly situated customers…
Me: … will assume that these things just happen and they have no standing to complain. TP: They literally said “Sometimes these things happen.” Me: Yes. Now one can act regarding them as if they are simply the weather. Or one can act to resolve them. The resolutions cost money.
[...]
An aside about “weather”: There are some factors in life and business which are genuinely out of our control. Weather is the canonical example, at least prior to widespread geoengineering. Many customers berate employees about the weather. This is uncouth and unhelpful.
But some employees and companies generalize from “The weather is out of our control” to “The consequences of weather are out of our control.” This is self-evidently absurd. We all exist in a world which has weather; you can plan for it.
“And extreme weather?” Is weather, and can be planned for. Not having a plan is a choice.
Japanese "customer service" is 90%: "I'm sorry, that's not possible". People confuse polite customer service with ACTUAL customer service when they visit Japan and only see it in short bursts....
Japanese "customer service" is 90%: "I'm sorry, that's not possible".
People confuse polite customer service with ACTUAL customer service when they visit Japan and only see it in short bursts.
Basically, you almost always have to push, and generally push until you get a manager, and then things suddently become possible. Even though, a lot of "service" in Japan just doesn't exist because there are rules and systems in place that just cannot be bent, even when it will clearly solve the problem.
An example of the inflexibility is that one of my friends left their Shinkansen ticket on the seat before they left the train. You need to present the ticket to the turnstile to get out. In my...
An example of the inflexibility is that one of my friends left their Shinkansen ticket on the seat before they left the train. You need to present the ticket to the turnstile to get out.
In my experience, if this was Europe or America (to the extent we have trains), you would explain your situation and they would just let you go through. Or at worst you could present a credit card statement on your phone to show that you did pay the fare.
In Japan this turned into an eeeeeee muzukashiiiiiii desu situation. The solution JR gave was that he had to buy ANOTHER full fare ticket, and they would send someone to look for the lost ticket, and he could come back tomorrow and if they found it they would refund him the ticket that he had to buy again.
And, they actually did find it, and refunded him. A poor employee had to spend likely more than a hour searching a train for a ticket because they couldn’t just assume that he was not trying to do the most convoluted and inefficient fare evasion strategy in the world.
This seems like a very easily predicted situation when you set up the ticket checking procedure, and one that probably happens constantly. Why would you have a system that checks people's tickets...
This seems like a very easily predicted situation when you set up the ticket checking procedure, and one that probably happens constantly. Why would you have a system that checks people's tickets after they're already at their destination, rather than as, or before they board the train??
If your friend didn't have the money to pay for another ticket, what would be the solution then? They get to take another free train ride back? They live the rest of their life at the station? They work the debt off by being an unpaid conductor?
Its interesting, because I just commented on a thread talking about different cultures, and where they live along a rule following vs rule bending/breaking axis.
In my experience, Japan is to the extreme rule following end. Germany and Austria are a little further in on that axis, the UK is right about at the middle, the US skews more towards the rule bending side, a lot of Mediterranean countries moreso, and most of the middle east is on the extreme rule bending side, especially when it comes to traffic laws, which seem like mere subtle suggestions based on the roads in a lot of ME countries I've been to.
Fun fact, they actually do all of the above. You need to put your ticket into the turnstile on the way in, and a conductor will check tickets during the train (randomly), and you need to have the...
Why would you have a system that checks people's tickets after they're already at their destination, rather than as, or before they board the train
Fun fact, they actually do all of the above. You need to put your ticket into the turnstile on the way in, and a conductor will check tickets during the train (randomly), and you need to have the ticket on the way out.
So the only way for this to be “intentional fare evasion” and not “tourist lost their ticket accidentally” is that you had to buy a legitimate ticket, and then stay on the train after your last stop, and dodge the conductor.
Funny you say that because I just watched this video. And if you think it's going to be about a German-speaking country, you're wrong!
In my experience, if this was Europe or America (to the extent we have trains), you would explain your situation and they would just let you go through. Or at worst you could present a credit card statement on your phone to show that you did pay the fare.
Funny you say that because I just watched this video. And if you think it's going to be about a German-speaking country, you're wrong!
Having lived in Germany, it's actually bizarre how lax they are when it comes to fare evasion, especially on public transport. There are guys who come and randomly check your tickets sometimes...
Having lived in Germany, it's actually bizarre how lax they are when it comes to fare evasion, especially on public transport. There are guys who come and randomly check your tickets sometimes (and ofc they're most common on popular routes with a lot of traffic), but if you're a local and smart about it (and willing to be a bit dishonest), it's far better financially to just never buy a ticket. Longer-distance trains check tickets more consistently, but still after the train has already left the station in my experience.
My wife accidentally washed her JR Pass midway through a trip. We had the pieces still but they were unreadable by the machine. We went to three JR offices in Tokyo and basically were told "no...
My wife accidentally washed her JR Pass midway through a trip. We had the pieces still but they were unreadable by the machine. We went to three JR offices in Tokyo and basically were told "no sorry, no re-issuing". One manager brought out a roll of tape for us to piece it back together and at least let us through, but we couldn't use it with any kiosks.
We were already going to Nagano that day so we swung by the JR office there and explained the situation in broken Japanese and the manager took one look at the ticket, saw the verification code was still present, looked it up and verified my wife's ID and printed us a new pass. The manager did say that it was only because the verification code was still visible that he was able to do this.
I'm not certain if this was resolved because he knew the rules better, had more power, or was just less busy than everybody else. But we didn't have to push with him. I think it's more likely that the employees in Tokyo just weren't certain of the rules and didn't want to risk getting in trouble.
Also the best ooyaki are in the same building (Midori Nagano), little place called Irohado. My favourite hidden gem of food (at least it still was 3 years ago).
This does not seem to hold true for the customer service I've interacted with! I find these days that most T1 support does everything in their power to keep from passing you to someone else. The...
Ruriko: Clearly they cannot lie at scale.
This does not seem to hold true for the customer service I've interacted with!
Every group passes you to another group.
I find these days that most T1 support does everything in their power to keep from passing you to someone else. The common line is "no one has any way to solve this", which patently isn't true (even if you had to escalate all the way to C?O, they almost always have the discretion to make stuff right), and I've even experienced being 'transferred' resulting in being hung up on - multiple times.
The new meta for customer service seems to be stall/stonewall until the customer gives up/gets frustrated/has more important things to do and goes away, at least with big companies.
Recently I've asked for the first rep to stay connected during transfer, or else I refuse to be transfered. Put me on hold if they want but they have to physically get another person before...
I've even experienced being 'transferred' resulting in being hung up on - multiple times.
Recently I've asked for the first rep to stay connected during transfer, or else I refuse to be transfered. Put me on hold if they want but they have to physically get another person before handing me off. Not foolproof corporate-proof of course but worth a try.
I guess this is specific to America, since things seem different in Canada? Often the only way to get anything done in a timely manner is with a phone call. Kinda wild that things are so...
I guess this is specific to America, since things seem different in Canada? Often the only way to get anything done in a timely manner is with a phone call. Kinda wild that things are so different; hopefully that culture doesn't creep up north in due time.
Relatedly: the worst customer service interaction I've had has been with Amazon (which I've since stopped ordering from), where I needed to hunt through various support methods in order to return/refund the incorrect item they shipped. Eventually, the trick was to get a callback from a text support chat, and they refunded me without asking for the item back. Then I took the cash, and walked to a local retailer, never to return.
“And extreme weather?”
Is weather, and can be planned for. Not having a plan is a choice.
I don't know why this statement bothers me so much. Some of my social circle like to do something similar, and pin blame on insufficient research by individuals, for subjects as far ranging as:
catastrophic data failure (your choice not to know about backups),
wildfires burning your house down (your choice not to practice good forestry + retrofit your home),
getting a debilitating infectious disease (your choice not to work somewhere remote, to avoid the office),
and etc. I think I'm just venting a little XD but whenever this stuff happens it feels like everyone stops their root cause analysis at a place that's convenient for their argument. Maybe it's OK to blame companies/governments/organizations/etc., and not individuals, for a lack of foresight?
Yes, as written, it's rather uncompromising, since even backup plans can fail. But for well-resourced organizations, I think it's okay to judge them for not planning ahead. For wildfire-prone...
Yes, as written, it's rather uncompromising, since even backup plans can fail. But for well-resourced organizations, I think it's okay to judge them for not planning ahead.
For wildfire-prone areas, a more reasonable expectation would be having insurance and an evacuation plan. But it's harder to get home insurance in some places these days.
Yeah, I don't get why we've developed this culture of (non-company) people shifting all the blame onto individuals, while giving corporations a free pass on being super shitty. The general vibe...
Yeah, I don't get why we've developed this culture of (non-company) people shifting all the blame onto individuals, while giving corporations a free pass on being super shitty. The general vibe these days seems to be "well the company needs to consider their bottom line"; why is it reasonable for a company to consider their bottom line at the exclusion of all else but not an individual? Why should an individual not skip practicing good forestry/retrofitting to save time/effort/money but corporations get to go "plannings expensive, screw the consequences"?
Yes to a degree. But also it's very easy to say "companies should plan for contingency" and completely ignore the economics of those contingencies. Customers are price sensitive and generally...
Yes to a degree. But also it's very easy to say "companies should plan for contingency" and completely ignore the economics of those contingencies. Customers are price sensitive and generally unsophisticated and so if you go out of your way to invest in contingency planning, insurance, better quality components, extra r&d, whatever. it is very hard to convince a customer to part with their money now for a benefit later (I.e. a staffed up call centre that doesn't keep you waiting with onshore staff).
There is no free lunch, and where a real market exists (I.e. multiple participants, lack of cartel behaviour) customers preferences are towards the bottom unless regulation raises the minimum bar, which is also typically not done unless the thing is safety critical. We get what we vote for, whether it be by ballot or wallet.
EDIT: on rereading your comment I'm actually not sure I'm understanding the spirit of it. So if you feel like I am responding to something you didn't write I beg forgiveness. Leaving the post up anyway.
The thing is, I think it's fine if companies don't plan for contingency (within reason), but then they've got to accept the cost of making it right if they've decided not to plan. They can't have...
The thing is, I think it's fine if companies don't plan for contingency (within reason), but then they've got to accept the cost of making it right if they've decided not to plan. They can't have their cake and eat it too: it's not reasonable to save money by not mitigating risk and then also save money by passing all the consequences on to the consumer. We need to hold companies to a higher standard than that, because they won't hold themselves to it given profit is their only motivation (seemingly these days, broadly speaking).
Oh ... sorry, I've been rather sleep deprived as of late, and I haven't been able to keep my prose up to my typical standard. Probably being unintentionally over-chatty, too. That's on me for not...
Oh ... sorry, I've been rather sleep deprived as of late, and I haven't been able to keep my prose up to my typical standard. Probably being unintentionally over-chatty, too. That's on me for not explaining myself well enough.
I don't really have a stance, I think? I was hoping to read other peoples' thoughts on the matter (and thank you to you and skybrian for doing so!), since it seemed important to the OP, and as noted I've noticed similar sentiments expressed by others, in contexts where digging in would've been socially inappropriate. Generally, it's hard for me to blame others (even larger groups) for insufficient preparation, as I'm perpetually suffering for over-planning and over-analysis myself, but I wasn't (and am still not) certain where to draw the line.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I disagree with the OP about lack of foresight 100% of the time being a choice, at least. So the line's somewhere beyond that.
Building things to never fail is usually expensive, but maybe it doesn’t have to be expensive to have a way to make customers whole when a rare corner case happens?
Building things to never fail is usually expensive, but maybe it doesn’t have to be expensive to have a way to make customers whole when a rare corner case happens?
In my experience in the US: phone call to customer service for something that can be fixed/remediated verifiably so while still on the call, and email/writing for anything else. If your issue...
In my experience in the US: phone call to customer service for something that can be fixed/remediated verifiably so while still on the call, and email/writing for anything else.
If your issue isn’t resolved by the time you hang up, the next time you call, odds are there’s no record of it or nothing actually being done to fix your problem.
I'm not sure what the context of this is, I suppose it's intentionally generic, but it seems to imply airlines, and from everything I know it's the opposite: the only way to get anything done with airline support is to call them and be very firm until they fix the issue. They actually do have the power to fix you. Just don't do chat support - those are powerless.
Also, it's a bit rich to pose it as a "America vs Japan" thing. Japanese customer support can be even more powerless. You can't even modify an item on the menu (can I have this without tomatoes?) at a restaurant with the server bringing their manager over - that's because low level employees at Japanese companies infamously have literally 0 power and cannot go beyond their script at all. Japanese bureaucracy is famously tedious, uncompromising, and kafka-esque.
I'd heard about that being a problem re. dietary restrictions, but that it was moreso a cultural expectation w.r.t. chefs and whatnot, not a hierarchical issue? Haven't ever been there myself, though, and having no power to deal with difficult customers sounds awful (though I suppose North America has its fair share of similar issues).
Context: Ruriko, the author's wife, is Japanese, and has different expectations about customer service than most Americans:
[...]
Japanese "customer service" is 90%: "I'm sorry, that's not possible".
People confuse polite customer service with ACTUAL customer service when they visit Japan and only see it in short bursts.
Basically, you almost always have to push, and generally push until you get a manager, and then things suddently become possible. Even though, a lot of "service" in Japan just doesn't exist because there are rules and systems in place that just cannot be bent, even when it will clearly solve the problem.
An example of the inflexibility is that one of my friends left their Shinkansen ticket on the seat before they left the train. You need to present the ticket to the turnstile to get out.
In my experience, if this was Europe or America (to the extent we have trains), you would explain your situation and they would just let you go through. Or at worst you could present a credit card statement on your phone to show that you did pay the fare.
In Japan this turned into an eeeeeee muzukashiiiiiii desu situation. The solution JR gave was that he had to buy ANOTHER full fare ticket, and they would send someone to look for the lost ticket, and he could come back tomorrow and if they found it they would refund him the ticket that he had to buy again.
And, they actually did find it, and refunded him. A poor employee had to spend likely more than a hour searching a train for a ticket because they couldn’t just assume that he was not trying to do the most convoluted and inefficient fare evasion strategy in the world.
This seems like a very easily predicted situation when you set up the ticket checking procedure, and one that probably happens constantly. Why would you have a system that checks people's tickets after they're already at their destination, rather than as, or before they board the train??
If your friend didn't have the money to pay for another ticket, what would be the solution then? They get to take another free train ride back? They live the rest of their life at the station? They work the debt off by being an unpaid conductor?
Its interesting, because I just commented on a thread talking about different cultures, and where they live along a rule following vs rule bending/breaking axis.
In my experience, Japan is to the extreme rule following end. Germany and Austria are a little further in on that axis, the UK is right about at the middle, the US skews more towards the rule bending side, a lot of Mediterranean countries moreso, and most of the middle east is on the extreme rule bending side, especially when it comes to traffic laws, which seem like mere subtle suggestions based on the roads in a lot of ME countries I've been to.
Early 2000s Italian train ticket inspectors walk you to an ATM, apparently. Presumably to the police thereafter?
Fun fact, they actually do all of the above. You need to put your ticket into the turnstile on the way in, and a conductor will check tickets during the train (randomly), and you need to have the ticket on the way out.
So the only way for this to be “intentional fare evasion” and not “tourist lost their ticket accidentally” is that you had to buy a legitimate ticket, and then stay on the train after your last stop, and dodge the conductor.
Funny you say that because I just watched this video. And if you think it's going to be about a German-speaking country, you're wrong!
Having lived in Germany, it's actually bizarre how lax they are when it comes to fare evasion, especially on public transport. There are guys who come and randomly check your tickets sometimes (and ofc they're most common on popular routes with a lot of traffic), but if you're a local and smart about it (and willing to be a bit dishonest), it's far better financially to just never buy a ticket. Longer-distance trains check tickets more consistently, but still after the train has already left the station in my experience.
My wife accidentally washed her JR Pass midway through a trip. We had the pieces still but they were unreadable by the machine. We went to three JR offices in Tokyo and basically were told "no sorry, no re-issuing". One manager brought out a roll of tape for us to piece it back together and at least let us through, but we couldn't use it with any kiosks.
We were already going to Nagano that day so we swung by the JR office there and explained the situation in broken Japanese and the manager took one look at the ticket, saw the verification code was still present, looked it up and verified my wife's ID and printed us a new pass. The manager did say that it was only because the verification code was still visible that he was able to do this.
I'm not certain if this was resolved because he knew the rules better, had more power, or was just less busy than everybody else. But we didn't have to push with him. I think it's more likely that the employees in Tokyo just weren't certain of the rules and didn't want to risk getting in trouble.
Also the best ooyaki are in the same building (Midori Nagano), little place called Irohado. My favourite hidden gem of food (at least it still was 3 years ago).
This does not seem to hold true for the customer service I've interacted with!
I find these days that most T1 support does everything in their power to keep from passing you to someone else. The common line is "no one has any way to solve this", which patently isn't true (even if you had to escalate all the way to C?O, they almost always have the discretion to make stuff right), and I've even experienced being 'transferred' resulting in being hung up on - multiple times.
The new meta for customer service seems to be stall/stonewall until the customer gives up/gets frustrated/has more important things to do and goes away, at least with big companies.
Recently I've asked for the first rep to stay connected during transfer, or else I refuse to be transfered. Put me on hold if they want but they have to physically get another person before handing me off. Not
foolproofcorporate-proof of course but worth a try.I guess this is specific to America, since things seem different in Canada? Often the only way to get anything done in a timely manner is with a phone call. Kinda wild that things are so different; hopefully that culture doesn't creep up north in due time.
Relatedly: the worst customer service interaction I've had has been with Amazon (which I've since stopped ordering from), where I needed to hunt through various support methods in order to return/refund the incorrect item they shipped. Eventually, the trick was to get a callback from a text support chat, and they refunded me without asking for the item back. Then I took the cash, and walked to a local retailer, never to return.
I don't know why this statement bothers me so much. Some of my social circle like to do something similar, and pin blame on insufficient research by individuals, for subjects as far ranging as:
and etc. I think I'm just venting a little XD but whenever this stuff happens it feels like everyone stops their root cause analysis at a place that's convenient for their argument. Maybe it's OK to blame companies/governments/organizations/etc., and not individuals, for a lack of foresight?
Yes, as written, it's rather uncompromising, since even backup plans can fail. But for well-resourced organizations, I think it's okay to judge them for not planning ahead.
For wildfire-prone areas, a more reasonable expectation would be having insurance and an evacuation plan. But it's harder to get home insurance in some places these days.
Yeah, I don't get why we've developed this culture of (non-company) people shifting all the blame onto individuals, while giving corporations a free pass on being super shitty. The general vibe these days seems to be "well the company needs to consider their bottom line"; why is it reasonable for a company to consider their bottom line at the exclusion of all else but not an individual? Why should an individual not skip practicing good forestry/retrofitting to save time/effort/money but corporations get to go "plannings expensive, screw the consequences"?
Yes to a degree. But also it's very easy to say "companies should plan for contingency" and completely ignore the economics of those contingencies. Customers are price sensitive and generally unsophisticated and so if you go out of your way to invest in contingency planning, insurance, better quality components, extra r&d, whatever. it is very hard to convince a customer to part with their money now for a benefit later (I.e. a staffed up call centre that doesn't keep you waiting with onshore staff).
There is no free lunch, and where a real market exists (I.e. multiple participants, lack of cartel behaviour) customers preferences are towards the bottom unless regulation raises the minimum bar, which is also typically not done unless the thing is safety critical. We get what we vote for, whether it be by ballot or wallet.
EDIT: on rereading your comment I'm actually not sure I'm understanding the spirit of it. So if you feel like I am responding to something you didn't write I beg forgiveness. Leaving the post up anyway.
The thing is, I think it's fine if companies don't plan for contingency (within reason), but then they've got to accept the cost of making it right if they've decided not to plan. They can't have their cake and eat it too: it's not reasonable to save money by not mitigating risk and then also save money by passing all the consequences on to the consumer. We need to hold companies to a higher standard than that, because they won't hold themselves to it given profit is their only motivation (seemingly these days, broadly speaking).
Oh ... sorry, I've been rather sleep deprived as of late, and I haven't been able to keep my prose up to my typical standard. Probably being unintentionally over-chatty, too. That's on me for not explaining myself well enough.
I don't really have a stance, I think? I was hoping to read other peoples' thoughts on the matter (and thank you to you and skybrian for doing so!), since it seemed important to the OP, and as noted I've noticed similar sentiments expressed by others, in contexts where digging in would've been socially inappropriate. Generally, it's hard for me to blame others (even larger groups) for insufficient preparation, as I'm perpetually suffering for over-planning and over-analysis myself, but I wasn't (and am still not) certain where to draw the line.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I disagree with the OP about lack of foresight 100% of the time being a choice, at least. So the line's somewhere beyond that.
Building things to never fail is usually expensive, but maybe it doesn’t have to be expensive to have a way to make customers whole when a rare corner case happens?
In my experience in the US: phone call to customer service for something that can be fixed/remediated verifiably so while still on the call, and email/writing for anything else.
If your issue isn’t resolved by the time you hang up, the next time you call, odds are there’s no record of it or nothing actually being done to fix your problem.