I thought this article was really interesting and sums up my experience in high school, college, and the first few years in the job market. I can't find the original article I am thinking of, but...
I thought this article was really interesting and sums up my experience in high school, college, and the first few years in the job market. I can't find the original article I am thinking of, but there were a slew of articles a while back about the work culture in America and how in America the first question people ask is "What do you do (for a living)" and that's less common in other countries. Here's an article I found that touches on the point
Most Americans define themselves by their occupation, perhaps in part because they don’t have the class structure found in many European countries. When meeting someone for the first time, Americans readily ask, “What do you do?” Some English people, in contrast, would find such an inquiry to be bad manners. Americans tend to view their jobs as extensions of themselves, and therefore devote themselves utterly to their career. A recent American poll found that nearly 20% of those interviewed worked 50 or more hours a week, and yet they didn’t seem to be complaining. Most thought working overtime was important for their career and about half said they enjoyed their long hours.
My main points for conversation here are:
(1) I personally agree with the article. It might sound stupid to others, but on of the biggest sources of job dissatisfaction I had at my first job was I couldn't explain my job in a way that made sense to people and also explained how it was hard. I worked for a text analytics company. We did a lot of work processing data and trying to make NLP accessible to anyone. Trying to explain in a short, concise manner how hard language processing is to people is SO HARD. And then explaining my role in the team was even harder. I stayed in a job I didn't like for a long time because I couldn't find a job that was my dream role. I had so ingrained in me that I needed to find the PERFECT JOB or I would never be happy that I kept being miserable because why bother moving from a job I don't love to another job I don't love and might like less? I don't think we need to go to the other extreme and never ask kids what they want to be or what they want to do, but I wish American culture didn't define you so much by what your job is or what your career aspirations are.
(2) This is a thing I'm doing, and I suppose I'll make a call to action here for any Tildians who might be so inclined: I've started making an effort to stop asking people what their career is and focus more on hobbies and personality. The other thing is when people ask me "so what do you do?" I try to answer with hobbies instead of my job, or if it would otherwise be forced I respond with something like "I'm a software engineer for <company>, but that's really only a 9-5 for me. What I really like to do is <hobbies>". I'm trying to stop framing myself (both internally and to others) by my career and more by what I am interested in, and I hope by asking different questions other than people's careers I get them to start thinking similarly. I'd love to hear what Tildes thinks though.
There's a huge work culture in America, especially in the silicon valley. 50 hour weeks are practically expected around here. When you're spending a large portion of your waking hours each week...
Exemplary
There's a huge work culture in America, especially in the silicon valley. 50 hour weeks are practically expected around here.
When you're spending a large portion of your waking hours each week working, why wouldn't you define yourself by your job? You hardly have any time for anything else, especially if you subtract out the hours you spend doing chores, cooking, and other tasks that don't typically define a person.
I have made a conscious decision for my entire work career to only work more than 40 hours in a week if it's absolutely necessary. The number of weeks I've put in more than 40 hours I can quite literally count on my hands, and I have never put in 50 hours or more in a week. I make this clear in no uncertain terms to every employer I interview with. Work life balance is absolutely important to me, and while I can get shit done and recognize that work doesn't always fit neatly into the 9-5 bucket, you'll be hard pressed to get extra time from me.
I advocate for all of my colleagues to do the same, because the reality is that there is a large body of literature that shows working extra hours doesn't mean you're actually productive. You can quite literally cut an entire workday out of the week and productivity stays constant (in certain fields... for manual labor productivity goes up but quality suffers after a certain point). I personally believe this culture is a symptom of the disease that is unchecked capitalism, which is ironic because you'll actually make more money and spend less money to make worker friendly adaptations such as reducing hours worked per week, and this symptom is something that I feel strongly about and will continue to advocate for. Working more hours or becoming more important is not how you are going to become happy, and when you're on your deathbed you're likely not going to think "man I'm glad I spent an extra 20 hours at work that one week". You're going to be looking back on the time you spent when you were outside of work and the memories you formed doing the stuff you actually enjoyed.
What is the value of a life if nearly all time is spent is working? Economically, sure, but is it worth devoting so much time of one's life to something you don't really like? I myself would...
Working more hours or becoming more important is not how you are going to become happy, and when you're on your deathbed you're likely not going to think "man I'm glad I spent an extra 20 hours at work that one week". You're going to be looking back on the time you spent when you were outside of work and the memories you formed doing the stuff you actually enjoyed.
What is the value of a life if nearly all time is spent is working? Economically, sure, but is it worth devoting so much time of one's life to something you don't really like?
I myself would prefer to work less than 40h and instead live a little more sober but with a bit more free time.
To your personal anecdote, I'll just say that your job is helping computers understand how humans speak. There's always more details I'm sure but doesn't that sound bloody cool? I have a lot of...
To your personal anecdote, I'll just say that your job is helping computers understand how humans speak.
There's always more details I'm sure but doesn't that sound bloody cool? I have a lot of admiration for the entire field of NLP.
It's weird. In my experience people who have 0 computer experience (some of my friends, parents, grandparents) are very underwhelmed when I say my job is getting a computer to understand how...
It's weird. In my experience people who have 0 computer experience (some of my friends, parents, grandparents) are very underwhelmed when I say my job is getting a computer to understand how humans speak. But, there is a large portion of the world that don't understand "why the computer can't just do <x>". People who have a bit of tech familiarity and up all are like "oh fuck, that stuff is really interesting and cool". But for a lot of people, computers should just do it and it isn't until I say things like "ok, how do you deal with posts that have 2 languages within the same tweet/article/review/document/whatever, how do you deal with slang as it is ever-evolving, how do you deal with emojis, with sarcasm, with the difference in how people read my tone if I say I hate something vs when I say THAT I HATE SOMETHING." Then they get it, but that's a lot of background information and people tend to tune out by then because I've found most times, people don't give a shit what you do unless its something wild. People ask because we've been told we should, but usually, they don't give a fuck what the answer is. "Oh, he's a software engineer, sounds like a lot of white dudes living in a city. Boring. Moving on."
I agree with the article, and I also feel I am a similar type of person as the author. I have never been the type of person to do or want ONE thing; I prefer moving between a wide range of...
I agree with the article, and I also feel I am a similar type of person as the author. I have never been the type of person to do or want ONE thing; I prefer moving between a wide range of interests and fields. For example, recently I have been really interested in Linguistics and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Only a year ago, I knew next to nothing about Linguistics. I firmly believe there are many other people who feel the same, and are stuck in a ONE career mind-set.
Asking children to plan for ONE career, to ONE dream might be meaningful to some people, the Usain Bolts' of the world, but for many it feels like a trap.
When asked "what do you want to be when you grow up" I always responded with "independently wealthy." It was never what my mom's friends were prepared to hear.
When asked "what do you want to be when you grow up" I always responded with "independently wealthy." It was never what my mom's friends were prepared to hear.
No it absolutely doesn't. Your framing of the question and reaction to the answer does. It's about thinking past today, it's about being able to express desires, it's about goal-setting, and it's...
The question forces children to define themselves in terms of work.
No it absolutely doesn't. Your framing of the question and reaction to the answer does.
It's about thinking past today, it's about being able to express desires, it's about goal-setting, and it's a fantastic thing to get kids talking. And eventually it will show them that it's ok for these things to change as they get older.
Who is to say that the answer has to be 'a job' - kids don't understand jobs like adults do, many have no reason to think anyone does a job for any other reason than because they want to. So a kid might say 'a soccer player'. The adult perspective is 'professional soccer player'. But the kid could grow up to be a maths teacher as a job and play soccer as a hobby. Kid might want to become a soldier. Reservists are a thing. Kid might want to be an artist - no reason you can't, and no reason it needs to be your job.
If you come back at them with 'and how will you make money off that' (which I've heard a lot from kids saying they want to be e-sports stars) that's when it becomes limiting and has all these problems. If the answer is 'I have no idea' and you come back at them with 'well you'd better work it out before you (eg) pick your high school classes' then there's the other issue. But neither of these is inherent to the question.
There is a far, FAR worse option. Kids who have never been asked the question, or kids who have never had their answer to that question listened to. Who sign up to degrees because that's what dad did and so I have to do it too. Or kids who have no idea and end up drifting after school because they never thought past it. Ask the question, listen to the answer, don't limit it, and it becomes valuable.
It reminds me. When they interview people om the streets here in Brazil, the first thing they show on the bottom of the screen is the name and job. They even put unemployed if that's the case. I...
It reminds me. When they interview people om the streets here in Brazil, the first thing they show on the bottom of the screen is the name and job.
They even put unemployed if that's the case. I always found it absurd. It gives the impression that you should pay more attention if it's a doctor talking.
This is so true. We need to stop lying to kids. We don't need to explain every complexity of the real world, but misleading children and giving them inflated expectations is just wrong.
After the comedian Chris Rock heard an administrator tell entering high schoolers they could be anything they want to be, he asked, “Lady, why are you lying to these children?” Maybe four of them could be anything they want to be. But the other 2,000 had better learn how to weld. He added: “Tell the kids the truth. You can be anything you’re good at — as long as they’re hiring.”
This is so true. We need to stop lying to kids. We don't need to explain every complexity of the real world, but misleading children and giving them inflated expectations is just wrong.
If I asked a kid what they wanted to be when they grew up, and they gave the article's example of, "A person of integrity" (or even just, "A good person"), I would be pretty surprised. Not just...
If I asked a kid what they wanted to be when they grew up, and they gave the article's example of, "A person of integrity" (or even just, "A good person"), I would be pretty surprised. Not just because they're specifically trained to give a job-related answer to this question, but because this sort of answer requires an acknowledgment that what's important to them is self-actualization, rather than the idea of collecting a bunch of objects.
I think working a job that you really enjoy certainly isn't mutually exclusive from this idea of self-actualization and moral character, but the train of thought among most people is, "Get as much money as I can so that I can do any of the things that I want to do," not, "Always do the things that I want to do." Being able to step away from that as an automatic answer shows a lot of wisdom, especially as a child.
I disagree with is assertion that such an answer is socially unacceptable; I think many adults would be a little confused and repeat the question, but they would probably accept it if it were to be restated. It's definitely an unusual response, but it isn't a bad one, and I think this is something that we're collectively ready to start embracing.
Just something that I saw the other day. When you ask a young person what they want to be when they grow up, and they say 'I don't want to grow up', take pause. That may be a cue that this is a...
Exemplary
Just something that I saw the other day. When you ask a young person what they want to be when they grow up, and they say 'I don't want to grow up', take pause. That may be a cue that this is a suicidal or depressed person.
I thought this article was really interesting and sums up my experience in high school, college, and the first few years in the job market. I can't find the original article I am thinking of, but there were a slew of articles a while back about the work culture in America and how in America the first question people ask is "What do you do (for a living)" and that's less common in other countries.
Here's an article I found that touches on the point
My main points for conversation here are:
(1) I personally agree with the article. It might sound stupid to others, but on of the biggest sources of job dissatisfaction I had at my first job was I couldn't explain my job in a way that made sense to people and also explained how it was hard. I worked for a text analytics company. We did a lot of work processing data and trying to make NLP accessible to anyone. Trying to explain in a short, concise manner how hard language processing is to people is SO HARD. And then explaining my role in the team was even harder. I stayed in a job I didn't like for a long time because I couldn't find a job that was my dream role. I had so ingrained in me that I needed to find the PERFECT JOB or I would never be happy that I kept being miserable because why bother moving from a job I don't love to another job I don't love and might like less? I don't think we need to go to the other extreme and never ask kids what they want to be or what they want to do, but I wish American culture didn't define you so much by what your job is or what your career aspirations are.
(2) This is a thing I'm doing, and I suppose I'll make a call to action here for any Tildians who might be so inclined: I've started making an effort to stop asking people what their career is and focus more on hobbies and personality. The other thing is when people ask me "so what do you do?" I try to answer with hobbies instead of my job, or if it would otherwise be forced I respond with something like "I'm a software engineer for <company>, but that's really only a 9-5 for me. What I really like to do is <hobbies>". I'm trying to stop framing myself (both internally and to others) by my career and more by what I am interested in, and I hope by asking different questions other than people's careers I get them to start thinking similarly. I'd love to hear what Tildes thinks though.
There's a huge work culture in America, especially in the silicon valley. 50 hour weeks are practically expected around here.
When you're spending a large portion of your waking hours each week working, why wouldn't you define yourself by your job? You hardly have any time for anything else, especially if you subtract out the hours you spend doing chores, cooking, and other tasks that don't typically define a person.
I have made a conscious decision for my entire work career to only work more than 40 hours in a week if it's absolutely necessary. The number of weeks I've put in more than 40 hours I can quite literally count on my hands, and I have never put in 50 hours or more in a week. I make this clear in no uncertain terms to every employer I interview with. Work life balance is absolutely important to me, and while I can get shit done and recognize that work doesn't always fit neatly into the 9-5 bucket, you'll be hard pressed to get extra time from me.
I advocate for all of my colleagues to do the same, because the reality is that there is a large body of literature that shows working extra hours doesn't mean you're actually productive. You can quite literally cut an entire workday out of the week and productivity stays constant (in certain fields... for manual labor productivity goes up but quality suffers after a certain point). I personally believe this culture is a symptom of the disease that is unchecked capitalism, which is ironic because you'll actually make more money and spend less money to make worker friendly adaptations such as reducing hours worked per week, and this symptom is something that I feel strongly about and will continue to advocate for. Working more hours or becoming more important is not how you are going to become happy, and when you're on your deathbed you're likely not going to think "man I'm glad I spent an extra 20 hours at work that one week". You're going to be looking back on the time you spent when you were outside of work and the memories you formed doing the stuff you actually enjoyed.
What is the value of a life if nearly all time is spent is working? Economically, sure, but is it worth devoting so much time of one's life to something you don't really like?
I myself would prefer to work less than 40h and instead live a little more sober but with a bit more free time.
To your personal anecdote, I'll just say that your job is helping computers understand how humans speak.
There's always more details I'm sure but doesn't that sound bloody cool? I have a lot of admiration for the entire field of NLP.
It's weird. In my experience people who have 0 computer experience (some of my friends, parents, grandparents) are very underwhelmed when I say my job is getting a computer to understand how humans speak. But, there is a large portion of the world that don't understand "why the computer can't just do <x>". People who have a bit of tech familiarity and up all are like "oh fuck, that stuff is really interesting and cool". But for a lot of people, computers should just do it and it isn't until I say things like "ok, how do you deal with posts that have 2 languages within the same tweet/article/review/document/whatever, how do you deal with slang as it is ever-evolving, how do you deal with emojis, with sarcasm, with the difference in how people read my tone if I say I hate something vs when I say THAT I HATE SOMETHING." Then they get it, but that's a lot of background information and people tend to tune out by then because I've found most times, people don't give a shit what you do unless its something wild. People ask because we've been told we should, but usually, they don't give a fuck what the answer is. "Oh, he's a software engineer, sounds like a lot of white dudes living in a city. Boring. Moving on."
I agree with the article, and I also feel I am a similar type of person as the author. I have never been the type of person to do or want ONE thing; I prefer moving between a wide range of interests and fields. For example, recently I have been really interested in Linguistics and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Only a year ago, I knew next to nothing about Linguistics. I firmly believe there are many other people who feel the same, and are stuck in a ONE career mind-set.
Asking children to plan for ONE career, to ONE dream might be meaningful to some people, the Usain Bolts' of the world, but for many it feels like a trap.
When asked "what do you want to be when you grow up" I always responded with "independently wealthy." It was never what my mom's friends were prepared to hear.
No it absolutely doesn't. Your framing of the question and reaction to the answer does.
It's about thinking past today, it's about being able to express desires, it's about goal-setting, and it's a fantastic thing to get kids talking. And eventually it will show them that it's ok for these things to change as they get older.
Who is to say that the answer has to be 'a job' - kids don't understand jobs like adults do, many have no reason to think anyone does a job for any other reason than because they want to. So a kid might say 'a soccer player'. The adult perspective is 'professional soccer player'. But the kid could grow up to be a maths teacher as a job and play soccer as a hobby. Kid might want to become a soldier. Reservists are a thing. Kid might want to be an artist - no reason you can't, and no reason it needs to be your job.
If you come back at them with 'and how will you make money off that' (which I've heard a lot from kids saying they want to be e-sports stars) that's when it becomes limiting and has all these problems. If the answer is 'I have no idea' and you come back at them with 'well you'd better work it out before you (eg) pick your high school classes' then there's the other issue. But neither of these is inherent to the question.
There is a far, FAR worse option. Kids who have never been asked the question, or kids who have never had their answer to that question listened to. Who sign up to degrees because that's what dad did and so I have to do it too. Or kids who have no idea and end up drifting after school because they never thought past it. Ask the question, listen to the answer, don't limit it, and it becomes valuable.
It reminds me. When they interview people om the streets here in Brazil, the first thing they show on the bottom of the screen is the name and job.
They even put unemployed if that's the case. I always found it absurd. It gives the impression that you should pay more attention if it's a doctor talking.
This is so true. We need to stop lying to kids. We don't need to explain every complexity of the real world, but misleading children and giving them inflated expectations is just wrong.
If I asked a kid what they wanted to be when they grew up, and they gave the article's example of, "A person of integrity" (or even just, "A good person"), I would be pretty surprised. Not just because they're specifically trained to give a job-related answer to this question, but because this sort of answer requires an acknowledgment that what's important to them is self-actualization, rather than the idea of collecting a bunch of objects.
I think working a job that you really enjoy certainly isn't mutually exclusive from this idea of self-actualization and moral character, but the train of thought among most people is, "Get as much money as I can so that I can do any of the things that I want to do," not, "Always do the things that I want to do." Being able to step away from that as an automatic answer shows a lot of wisdom, especially as a child.
I disagree with is assertion that such an answer is socially unacceptable; I think many adults would be a little confused and repeat the question, but they would probably accept it if it were to be restated. It's definitely an unusual response, but it isn't a bad one, and I think this is something that we're collectively ready to start embracing.
Just something that I saw the other day. When you ask a young person what they want to be when they grow up, and they say 'I don't want to grow up', take pause. That may be a cue that this is a suicidal or depressed person.
https://bestlifeonline.com/suicide-warning-signs/