I worry that people see these sorts of things, and perversely start to cheer along when they agree with the symbolism. Like, "yeah, you tell them!" What happened here is a service member committed...
Exemplary
I worry that people see these sorts of things, and perversely start to cheer along when they agree with the symbolism. Like, "yeah, you tell them!"
What happened here is a service member committed suicide. Strip away the political symbolism, and that is what happened. Past research has shown that a majority of people who attempt self immolation are depressed, have prior diagnoses for psychiatric conditions like schizophrenia, tend to have less family and social support, and have emotion focused coping instead of problem focused coping.
It is not healthy for a young man, a world away from the conflict, to kill them self in protest. People who agree with the message will laude it, but it makes me deplore the state of mental health care.
People cheering this on will forget this man's name in ten years, and the world will forget him, and his death won't change things. All this does is traumatize any family or friends he left behind. A healthy response to opposing the war is calling your representatives, writing essays, participating in protests, raising aid money, etc. What happened here feels like another manifestation of the radicalization of young men online, who, lacking the support or grounding, get sucked into self reinforcing loops of negative behavior and toxic online content. Or as a service member, even one in technology, he could have been exposed to blasts during training that caused a special form of brain damage that leads to depression and suicide.
There is no glory in his death.
988 is the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline for anyone dealing with suicidal impulses. Call or text. Your death won't make the world s better place.
I get your argument and I encourage people having suicidal thoughts to get help, and do not condone suicide as a form of political protest. That being said I think it's also kind of unfair to...
I get your argument and I encourage people having suicidal thoughts to get help, and do not condone suicide as a form of political protest.
That being said I think it's also kind of unfair to assume that the person was mentally ill (which kind of dismisses their actions and provides a ground to say "oh it was just a crazy no need to do anything") and not that they genuinely thought the situation was so hopeless they had no other option.
I disagree. If anything, I hope my post says we need to do more. More to protect people's mental health. I don't understand the comment about "so hopeless they had no other option." They did have...
(which kind of dismisses their actions and provides a ground to say "oh it was just a crazy no need to do anything") and not that they genuinely thought the situation was so hopeless they had no other option.
I disagree. If anything, I hope my post says we need to do more. More to protect people's mental health.
I don't understand the comment about "so hopeless they had no other option." They did have other options. Options to protest, to effect change, to raise money, to volunteer. They had no end of options. And they killed themself. We shouldn't celebrate their death; we should mourn it. Just because we can't unilaterally end major geopolitical situations doesn't mean self-immolation is the natural next step.
Ask yourself if this happened in front of a Russian embassy, would it seem normal? Healthy? For someone living a world away from the fighting, presumably without family directly involved? Or in front of any other embassy involved in conflicts and ethnic cleansing happening all around the world? Would it seem like martyrdom was a natural first step in protesting the issue?
I'm sorry, I just don't get there. But that is my own take on the situation. I respect that others will disagree. But I don't think the world is better for his death or other deaths like it.
I feel like you’re analyzing like this as if it was some kind of tactical move, like he did this just to accomplish a political goal and nothing more. And not factoring in or accounting for the...
Exemplary
They did have other options. Options to protest, to effect change, to raise money, to volunteer.
I feel like you’re analyzing like this as if it was some kind of tactical move, like he did this just to accomplish a political goal and nothing more. And not factoring in or accounting for the personal misery component that always necessarily comes into play when deciding to end your life. You have to understand, these options represent a significant burden to someone already struggling. And for some reason people feel like none of those “options” will accomplish anything. Honest question: do you think literally everyone who feels like protesting and volunteering are ineffectual only feel that way because they are mentally ill?
This was a guy who couldn’t take it anymore and decided to go out in a way that would force people to actually talk about the problem he believed to be intractable. Talking about it is not glorifying him as some kind of martyr, and ironically the only kind of messaging that contributes to the vanity of such a death is the kind that tries to attribute these actions to someone who just wasn’t thinking clearly.
In your other reply to me you said you don't wish to discuss this further, and I would like to be respectful of your wishes. If you would like me to share my thoughts, I'm happy to, but please...
In your other reply to me you said you don't wish to discuss this further, and I would like to be respectful of your wishes. If you would like me to share my thoughts, I'm happy to, but please confirm.
Only a mentally ill person would think, "This situation is so helpless, my only option is to light myself on fire." I don't understand how you can argue otherwise.
and not that they genuinely thought the situation was so hopeless they had no other option.
Only a mentally ill person would think, "This situation is so helpless, my only option is to light myself on fire." I don't understand how you can argue otherwise.
Not all suicidal people have a mental illness. It would not be ethical to diagnose a person that a licensed clinician has not met with based on one piece of information. Whatever was going on in...
Not all suicidal people have a mental illness. It would not be ethical to diagnose a person that a licensed clinician has not met with based on one piece of information. Whatever was going on in his life we can absolutely wish that he had felt able to speak to someone and to get help addressing the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness that he expressed.
Whatever was going on in his life we can absolutely wish that he had felt able to speak to someone and to get help addressing the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness that he expressed.
I don’t think it’s fair or appropriate to speculate like this and it alienates anyone who agrees with the person’s message enough to understand how he was able to do that to himself. Maybe people...
Or as a service member, even one in technology, he could have been exposed to blasts during training that caused a special form of brain damage that leads to depression and suicide.
I don’t think it’s fair or appropriate to speculate like this and it alienates anyone who agrees with the person’s message enough to understand how he was able to do that to himself. Maybe people are just that desperate. Why not consider it’s possible?
Lacking details about his past life, we don't know if there was a history of depression or social or family factors or anything else. What I do know is that we have a young man who is really just...
Lacking details about his past life, we don't know if there was a history of depression or social or family factors or anything else.
What I do know is that we have a young man who is really just starting his life, who, in a matter of months, watching a conflict unfold from half a world away, kills himself in protest. This wasn't a lifelong activist who had spent 25 adult years advocating for a cause, escalating their level of commitment, and culminating a life of advocacy in a final sacrificial act. This wasn't an infantryman on the front lines witnessing horrors (although that would also be missed mental health treatment) This was a young man who seemingly went from 0 to 100 in a matter of months. That seems more like unhealthy thought patterns and exposure to toxic influences than it does martyr.
I worry that by bringing undue media attention or glorifying his death, we could encourage other people to take their own lives as opposed to seeking help.
and it alienates anyone who agrees with the person’s message enough to understand how he was able to do that to himself. Maybe people are just that desperate.
I respectfully disagree. Suicide isn't healthy or rational, and the few mitigating circumstances that differentiate suicide from martyrdom just aren't here. This wasn't a parent who lost their children, a lifelong advocate, etc.
My subjective take is that this looks more like mental health, an obsessive latching onto a terrible conflict, and an inability to see better ways to get their message out. Others can have their own view.
I mean I am literally explaining to you how your comment made me feel a bit alienated, and it seems at least a couple of people resonated with that. You can “disagree” that it made me feel...
I mean I am literally explaining to you how your comment made me feel a bit alienated, and it seems at least a couple of people resonated with that. You can “disagree” that it made me feel alienated I guess, though.
And I don’t really want to discuss this any further because I don’t wish anyone to construe this as some kind of endorsement of his actions (ironically there’s only one person using the language of martyrdom here) as my comment is just designed to illustrate how what you said makes some us feel like you think the only reason to feel strongly about this issue is brain damage or something
I have a friend that lives near DC so I found out about this almost right when it happened. I saw the picture while trying to eat lunch. Self immolation always makes me deeply deeply uncomfortable...
Exemplary
I have a friend that lives near DC so I found out about this almost right when it happened. I saw the picture while trying to eat lunch. Self immolation always makes me deeply deeply uncomfortable in a way I can't put in words. Something about the mental fortitude necessary to go through with it just has an extreme emotional impact on me.
The fact that we are doing this to our servicemen and that our country continues to be complicit in genocide weighs on me. It's difficult to put into words just how deeply disappointed in our society I am for allowing this to happen. I hope this changes things but the cynic in me is very sure it won't. I hope that part of me is wrong.
The idea, then follow through are terrifying to think of. Truly a horrific state of mind. Thought they lost all agency. Never knowing where to find a helping hand. One reaching out but never found.
The idea, then follow through are terrifying to think of. Truly a horrific state of mind. Thought they lost all agency. Never knowing where to find a helping hand. One reaching out but never found.
I think it has a place here as it's own topic as this could create some discussion. Especially as that is the point of doing something like this. He didn't want to be part of a system that was...
I think it has a place here as it's own topic as this could create some discussion. Especially as that is the point of doing something like this.
He didn't want to be part of a system that was supporting a genocide, they wouldn't let him out or transition out of the military, and this was his final act of desperation and message.
He was obviously depressed, but I would be too if I felt like I was trapped into aiding and participating in the genocide of an entire people.
I'm curious about this transition out of the military. I don't see that in the link or the few articles i've read I really don't love the implication that this was automatically noble and not a...
He didn't want to be part of a system that was supporting a genocide, they wouldn't let him out or transition out of the military, and this was his final act of desperation and message.
I'm curious about this transition out of the military. I don't see that in the link or the few articles i've read
I really don't love the implication that this was automatically noble and not a disturbing example of extremism and mental health issues. I'm not going to get into the weeds of the conflict because god knows its been talked to death, but at the same time there are a large number of ways to protest something without lighting yourself on fire. "The military wouldn't transfer me..." doesn't really strike me as super sound as a reason given if you're willing to die horribly for the cause you probably could've been just as willing, and arguably more effective to the cause, alive and in jail for going AWOL or refusing to do your duty. If the answer is "well its because the genocide is so horrible" then the transfer request shouldn't matter.
As for "aiding and participating in the genocide of an entire people", I'd argue he's not that much more culpable than the average tax payer. I say with literally no humor that tools like Azure Dev Ops can absolutely still be used for horrid reasons (and i suspect are around the world), but it really bothers me that the implication in this is that every air force member working dev ops is culpable to the level that suicide by immolation is "well yeah makes sense" level of response?
I don't think that being willing to die for a cause is automatically emblematic of mental health issues. This man was an Air Force serviceman. He was already willing to die for the United States....
I really don't love the implication that this was automatically noble and not a disturbing example of extremism and mental health issues.
I don't think that being willing to die for a cause is automatically emblematic of mental health issues.
This man was an Air Force serviceman. He was already willing to die for the United States. And when he saw his country doing something indefensible, that he was obligated by oath and position to defend, he chose by his own principles and volition that his most effective act of protest was self-immolation.
It's horrid. That's the point. He intended his death to spark international outrage.
He was a cyber security specialist working on Azure Dev ops. I have known many members of the military, especially support services, you are making a wild assumption about what they are and are...
This man was an Air Force serviceman. He was already willing to die for the United States.
He was a cyber security specialist working on Azure Dev ops. I have known many members of the military, especially support services, you are making a wild assumption about what they are and are not willing to do.
In fact a major and common criticism of the US military is just how many people join because they have no better alternative.
I think you're glorifying something because it lines up with your views.
I didn't know that. You're right: thinking about it again, I entirely take back that joining the United States military (in support services or in combat roles) implies one is willing to die for...
I didn't know that. You're right: thinking about it again, I entirely take back that joining the United States military (in support services or in combat roles) implies one is willing to die for it. Even ignoring support services, there's definitely too much recruiting and too many incentives to join the military to treat that as a oath of commitment in that sense. I guess I'd only say that about... signing up for the military during an active and prolonged conflict?
I do think that the rest of my comment holds, though. He chose self-immolation to be his most effective form of protest. And I'm definitely glorifying it because it lines up with my views. That's the point. That's his point.
In my opinion this is not an action that should be glorified. How was it an effective form of protest? Nothing will change because of this. How is being brainwashed into lighting yourself on fire...
Exemplary
In my opinion this is not an action that should be glorified. How was it an effective form of protest? Nothing will change because of this. How is being brainwashed into lighting yourself on fire dying a noble death?
His Reddit account is easy to find if you are curious to read some of his far left political rants. Highlights include arguing that weaponized rape and the murder of Israeli children on October 7th was justified. He also celebrated the deaths of his fellow US servicemen who died in a helicopter crash.
In my opinion he was a mentally ill, terminally online kid with no direction in his life. He was easy prey to be radicalized by political extremists. The same type of kid that could have been radicalized by the far right and turned into a mass shooter. He lit himself on fire over a war on the other side of the world. This is not something a mentally healthy 25 year old does.
I think you could say it about anyone at anytime depending on what occupation they chose. The guy moving PCs from office to office maybe not; the guy HALO dropping behind enemy lines to paint...
I think you could say it about anyone at anytime depending on what occupation they chose. The guy moving PCs from office to office maybe not; the guy HALO dropping behind enemy lines to paint targets with a glorified laser pointer probably yes.
Law enforcement officers are heard screaming at Bushnell to get on the ground. One points a gun at him while he is collapsed on the ground, screaming in pain.
That officer's gun remains drawn as another sprays him with a fire extinguisher. "I don't need guns, I need fire extinguishers!" one officer is heard yelling as other officers arrive on the scene.
Think of the psychological horror of getting a disturbance call and then being confronted with someone on fire and thrashing around. Horrible situation.
Think of the psychological horror of getting a disturbance call and then being confronted with someone on fire and thrashing around. Horrible situation.
I dunno, I feel like I'd feel a little more bad if the officer decided to help instead of drawing a gun. Hell, even doing literally nothing is probably a better option, what is with cops and...
I dunno, I feel like I'd feel a little more bad if the officer decided to help instead of drawing a gun. Hell, even doing literally nothing is probably a better option, what is with cops and wanting to draw their firearms?
There is a lot of paranoia that the community reinforces even in places where it's not really warranted. Of course it's more justified for them than if a random person did the same thing, but even...
There is a lot of paranoia that the community reinforces even in places where it's not really warranted. Of course it's more justified for them than if a random person did the same thing, but even in situations where it's not really warranted, it's still arguably justified by the fear and paranoia that is instilled as part of a systemic effort that removes their agency. One of those things along the lines of "you are responsible for your actions and beliefs, but how much control do you really have?"
I worry that people see these sorts of things, and perversely start to cheer along when they agree with the symbolism. Like, "yeah, you tell them!"
What happened here is a service member committed suicide. Strip away the political symbolism, and that is what happened. Past research has shown that a majority of people who attempt self immolation are depressed, have prior diagnoses for psychiatric conditions like schizophrenia, tend to have less family and social support, and have emotion focused coping instead of problem focused coping.
It is not healthy for a young man, a world away from the conflict, to kill them self in protest. People who agree with the message will laude it, but it makes me deplore the state of mental health care.
People cheering this on will forget this man's name in ten years, and the world will forget him, and his death won't change things. All this does is traumatize any family or friends he left behind. A healthy response to opposing the war is calling your representatives, writing essays, participating in protests, raising aid money, etc. What happened here feels like another manifestation of the radicalization of young men online, who, lacking the support or grounding, get sucked into self reinforcing loops of negative behavior and toxic online content. Or as a service member, even one in technology, he could have been exposed to blasts during training that caused a special form of brain damage that leads to depression and suicide.
There is no glory in his death.
988 is the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline for anyone dealing with suicidal impulses. Call or text. Your death won't make the world s better place.
I get your argument and I encourage people having suicidal thoughts to get help, and do not condone suicide as a form of political protest.
That being said I think it's also kind of unfair to assume that the person was mentally ill (which kind of dismisses their actions and provides a ground to say "oh it was just a crazy no need to do anything") and not that they genuinely thought the situation was so hopeless they had no other option.
I disagree. If anything, I hope my post says we need to do more. More to protect people's mental health.
I don't understand the comment about "so hopeless they had no other option." They did have other options. Options to protest, to effect change, to raise money, to volunteer. They had no end of options. And they killed themself. We shouldn't celebrate their death; we should mourn it. Just because we can't unilaterally end major geopolitical situations doesn't mean self-immolation is the natural next step.
Ask yourself if this happened in front of a Russian embassy, would it seem normal? Healthy? For someone living a world away from the fighting, presumably without family directly involved? Or in front of any other embassy involved in conflicts and ethnic cleansing happening all around the world? Would it seem like martyrdom was a natural first step in protesting the issue?
I'm sorry, I just don't get there. But that is my own take on the situation. I respect that others will disagree. But I don't think the world is better for his death or other deaths like it.
I feel like you’re analyzing like this as if it was some kind of tactical move, like he did this just to accomplish a political goal and nothing more. And not factoring in or accounting for the personal misery component that always necessarily comes into play when deciding to end your life. You have to understand, these options represent a significant burden to someone already struggling. And for some reason people feel like none of those “options” will accomplish anything. Honest question: do you think literally everyone who feels like protesting and volunteering are ineffectual only feel that way because they are mentally ill?
This was a guy who couldn’t take it anymore and decided to go out in a way that would force people to actually talk about the problem he believed to be intractable. Talking about it is not glorifying him as some kind of martyr, and ironically the only kind of messaging that contributes to the vanity of such a death is the kind that tries to attribute these actions to someone who just wasn’t thinking clearly.
In your other reply to me you said you don't wish to discuss this further, and I would like to be respectful of your wishes. If you would like me to share my thoughts, I'm happy to, but please confirm.
Have a great day!
Only a mentally ill person would think, "This situation is so helpless, my only option is to light myself on fire." I don't understand how you can argue otherwise.
Not all suicidal people have a mental illness. It would not be ethical to diagnose a person that a licensed clinician has not met with based on one piece of information. Whatever was going on in his life we can absolutely wish that he had felt able to speak to someone and to get help addressing the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness that he expressed.
I agree.
I don’t think it’s fair or appropriate to speculate like this and it alienates anyone who agrees with the person’s message enough to understand how he was able to do that to himself. Maybe people are just that desperate. Why not consider it’s possible?
Lacking details about his past life, we don't know if there was a history of depression or social or family factors or anything else.
What I do know is that we have a young man who is really just starting his life, who, in a matter of months, watching a conflict unfold from half a world away, kills himself in protest. This wasn't a lifelong activist who had spent 25 adult years advocating for a cause, escalating their level of commitment, and culminating a life of advocacy in a final sacrificial act. This wasn't an infantryman on the front lines witnessing horrors (although that would also be missed mental health treatment) This was a young man who seemingly went from 0 to 100 in a matter of months. That seems more like unhealthy thought patterns and exposure to toxic influences than it does martyr.
I worry that by bringing undue media attention or glorifying his death, we could encourage other people to take their own lives as opposed to seeking help.
I respectfully disagree. Suicide isn't healthy or rational, and the few mitigating circumstances that differentiate suicide from martyrdom just aren't here. This wasn't a parent who lost their children, a lifelong advocate, etc.
My subjective take is that this looks more like mental health, an obsessive latching onto a terrible conflict, and an inability to see better ways to get their message out. Others can have their own view.
I don't think the world is better for his death.
I mean I am literally explaining to you how your comment made me feel a bit alienated, and it seems at least a couple of people resonated with that. You can “disagree” that it made me feel alienated I guess, though.
And I don’t really want to discuss this any further because I don’t wish anyone to construe this as some kind of endorsement of his actions (ironically there’s only one person using the language of martyrdom here) as my comment is just designed to illustrate how what you said makes some us feel like you think the only reason to feel strongly about this issue is brain damage or something
I have a friend that lives near DC so I found out about this almost right when it happened. I saw the picture while trying to eat lunch. Self immolation always makes me deeply deeply uncomfortable in a way I can't put in words. Something about the mental fortitude necessary to go through with it just has an extreme emotional impact on me.
The fact that we are doing this to our servicemen and that our country continues to be complicit in genocide weighs on me. It's difficult to put into words just how deeply disappointed in our society I am for allowing this to happen. I hope this changes things but the cynic in me is very sure it won't. I hope that part of me is wrong.
May God have mercy on our souls.
The idea, then follow through are terrifying to think of. Truly a horrific state of mind. Thought they lost all agency. Never knowing where to find a helping hand. One reaching out but never found.
Can this be moved to the weekly thread?
This is an impactful and self-contained enough event I'd prefer for it to not be in the weekly thread.
I think it has a place here as it's own topic as this could create some discussion. Especially as that is the point of doing something like this.
He didn't want to be part of a system that was supporting a genocide, they wouldn't let him out or transition out of the military, and this was his final act of desperation and message.
He was obviously depressed, but I would be too if I felt like I was trapped into aiding and participating in the genocide of an entire people.
I'm curious about this transition out of the military. I don't see that in the link or the few articles i've read
I really don't love the implication that this was automatically noble and not a disturbing example of extremism and mental health issues. I'm not going to get into the weeds of the conflict because god knows its been talked to death, but at the same time there are a large number of ways to protest something without lighting yourself on fire. "The military wouldn't transfer me..." doesn't really strike me as super sound as a reason given if you're willing to die horribly for the cause you probably could've been just as willing, and arguably more effective to the cause, alive and in jail for going AWOL or refusing to do your duty. If the answer is "well its because the genocide is so horrible" then the transfer request shouldn't matter.
As for "aiding and participating in the genocide of an entire people", I'd argue he's not that much more culpable than the average tax payer. I say with literally no humor that tools like Azure Dev Ops can absolutely still be used for horrid reasons (and i suspect are around the world), but it really bothers me that the implication in this is that every air force member working dev ops is culpable to the level that suicide by immolation is "well yeah makes sense" level of response?
I don't think that being willing to die for a cause is automatically emblematic of mental health issues.
This man was an Air Force serviceman. He was already willing to die for the United States. And when he saw his country doing something indefensible, that he was obligated by oath and position to defend, he chose by his own principles and volition that his most effective act of protest was self-immolation.
It's horrid. That's the point. He intended his death to spark international outrage.
I think he died a noble death.
He was a cyber security specialist working on Azure Dev ops. I have known many members of the military, especially support services, you are making a wild assumption about what they are and are not willing to do.
In fact a major and common criticism of the US military is just how many people join because they have no better alternative.
I think you're glorifying something because it lines up with your views.
I didn't know that. You're right: thinking about it again, I entirely take back that joining the United States military (in support services or in combat roles) implies one is willing to die for it. Even ignoring support services, there's definitely too much recruiting and too many incentives to join the military to treat that as a oath of commitment in that sense. I guess I'd only say that about... signing up for the military during an active and prolonged conflict?
I do think that the rest of my comment holds, though. He chose self-immolation to be his most effective form of protest. And I'm definitely glorifying it because it lines up with my views. That's the point. That's his point.
In my opinion this is not an action that should be glorified. How was it an effective form of protest? Nothing will change because of this. How is being brainwashed into lighting yourself on fire dying a noble death?
His Reddit account is easy to find if you are curious to read some of his far left political rants. Highlights include arguing that weaponized rape and the murder of Israeli children on October 7th was justified. He also celebrated the deaths of his fellow US servicemen who died in a helicopter crash.
In my opinion he was a mentally ill, terminally online kid with no direction in his life. He was easy prey to be radicalized by political extremists. The same type of kid that could have been radicalized by the far right and turned into a mass shooter. He lit himself on fire over a war on the other side of the world. This is not something a mentally healthy 25 year old does.
I think you could say it about anyone at anytime depending on what occupation they chose. The guy moving PCs from office to office maybe not; the guy HALO dropping behind enemy lines to paint targets with a glorified laser pointer probably yes.
From Newsweek too:
https://www.newsweek.com/who-aaron-bushnell-us-airman-fire-israeli-embassy-washington-dc-palestine-1873212
Think of the psychological horror of getting a disturbance call and then being confronted with someone on fire and thrashing around. Horrible situation.
I dunno, I feel like I'd feel a little more bad if the officer decided to help instead of drawing a gun. Hell, even doing literally nothing is probably a better option, what is with cops and wanting to draw their firearms?
I get that, but at least one had the right instincts and was using an extinguisher. Still a horrible thing to see.
There is a lot of paranoia that the community reinforces even in places where it's not really warranted. Of course it's more justified for them than if a random person did the same thing, but even in situations where it's not really warranted, it's still arguably justified by the fear and paranoia that is instilled as part of a systemic effort that removes their agency. One of those things along the lines of "you are responsible for your actions and beliefs, but how much control do you really have?"