Most flights out have been cancelled and rerouted, there are some airlines still operating, but it is fewer. People are being told that if they can't afford a ticket, or a flight is not available,...
Most flights out have been cancelled and rerouted, there are some airlines still operating, but it is fewer. People are being told that if they can't afford a ticket, or a flight is not available, they can go to the embassy to request support through a repatriation loan. From the embassy website: "Actions to take: Make plans to depart that do not rely on the U.S. government."There are an estimated 86,000 US citizens in Lebanon. The US government is not arranging any actual transport for anyone who needs help getting out. I hope it means the US isn't about to bomb the shit out of them, but I am afraid it means they just don't care if those people die in airstrikes. Urging people to leave without at least supporting a travel option feels kind of fucked up.
The U.S. government is taking the best course of action available at this time by encouraging U.S. citizens who want to leave to leave now. It's a kind of arrogance and insane expectations to...
Exemplary
The U.S. government is taking the best course of action available at this time by encouraging U.S. citizens who want to leave to leave now. It's a kind of arrogance and insane expectations to assume that the U.S. can simply come in with military planes and force Lebanon to accept that the U.S. will start military operations with boots on the ground and airlift 86k civilians (many of whom are probably dual nationals that don't want to leave).
Lebanon's been in a state of violence with Israel at least a couple decades. The recent crisis has been ongoing for almost a year now. If a U.S. citizen chose to stay there this long, that's on them. We can't just spend billions of dollars and risk soldiers' lives every time there's potentially violence and airlift people out. There's not a right to live wherever you want in the world outside of the U.S. and then expect the U.S. to muscle in and guarantee your safety.
EDIT: I understand there's frustration showing through my text here. I am so sick of sentiment like "Why doesn't the U.S. just save 86k people; are we the baddies?". And I know that not everyone had the luxury to just uproot in late 2023 and get out of Lebanon. The U.S. State Department makes it clear that we try to do the best we can, but there's limits to what we can do and that ultimately your safety is dependent on your awareness.
After Oct 7th, the US immediately arranged chartered flights for all US citizens seeking to evacuate Israel. Were you frustrated by that? Or relieved they had the support when they needed it.
After Oct 7th, the US immediately arranged chartered flights for all US citizens seeking to evacuate Israel. Were you frustrated by that? Or relieved they had the support when they needed it.
If there is an implication that my frustration has to do with the U.S. helping its citizens overseas when possible, then there has been a gross misreading of my comment. I would not be frustrated...
Were you frustrated by that?
If there is an implication that my frustration has to do with the U.S. helping its citizens overseas when possible, then there has been a gross misreading of my comment. I would not be frustrated with the U.S. rescuing people. I am frustrated that we take blame if we cannot do it in every scenario.
I am not surprised that the U.S. was able to offer more help in Israel after October 7th than its done in Lebanon right now. Israel is a friendlier nation to the U.S. than Lebanon. We have a stronger military relationship with Israel. Israel was not imminently about to be invaded to a degree that would endanger operations. Lebanon is controlled in part by a group (Hezbollah) that the U.S. had designated as terrorists at one point. The conditions were way easier in Israel than they are now in Lebanon.
Do you really believe Hezbollah is going to be as cooperative as Israel when it comes to the US military evacuating citizens? It is a completely different situation.
Do you really believe Hezbollah is going to be as cooperative as Israel when it comes to the US military evacuating citizens? It is a completely different situation.
Do we have US military forced on the ground in Lebanon? The internet says there are 75 military personnel there. Deploying more would probably not go over great I'd assume. It's a lot of people, I...
Do we have US military forced on the ground in Lebanon? The internet says there are 75 military personnel there. Deploying more would probably not go over great I'd assume.
It's a lot of people, I don't know that we have actual options given how hair-trigger that situation is at the moment.
Why should the United States do something that is good for the terrorist organization Hezbollah? There is a level 4 travel advisory for Lebanon. There is no reason for US citizens to be there. At...
Why should the United States do something that is good for the terrorist organization Hezbollah? There is a level 4 travel advisory for Lebanon. There is no reason for US citizens to be there. At a certain point they need to deal with the consequences of their actions.
Also I doubt Hezbollah would be happy with Israel's biggest ally sending forces into their country. What would happen if Hezbollah attacks the US troops doing the evacuation? That would be a huge escalation and is an unnecessary risk in my opinion.
US military forces going unilaterally into Lebanon to do this would be an act of war. There is a night and day difference vs arranging charter flights out of friendly territory.
US military forces going unilaterally into Lebanon to do this would be an act of war. There is a night and day difference vs arranging charter flights out of friendly territory.
It was not immediately. It took about a week of just about every flight away from Israel either canceled or sold out -- I remember because I was following it for my friend's young daughter, who...
It was not immediately. It took about a week of just about every flight away from Israel either canceled or sold out -- I remember because I was following it for my friend's young daughter, who was solo traveling to Israel at the time. An additional factor for Israel is that there is no safe land border to leave from for Jews.
I checked the dates. The first evacuation flights were announced on the 12th, and leaving the 13th.
As a side note, this is part of why I suggest /anyone/ considering air travel to Israel to fly El-Al. They add flights when tensions flare, instead of canceling them.
India has done it multiple times for own people as well as other countries. In 1990 Iraqi invasion of Kuwait the figure was 170000. This is only 86k...
India has done it multiple times for own people as well as other countries. In 1990 Iraqi invasion of Kuwait the figure was 170000. This is only 86k
I mean, The situation in Lebanon isn't exactly new and the U.S. doesn't really have inside connections to support pulling out that many people. I'm sure they have assets to support an Embassy evac...
I mean, The situation in Lebanon isn't exactly new and the U.S. doesn't really have inside connections to support pulling out that many people. I'm sure they have assets to support an Embassy evac but U.S. presence in the region is relatively low. The U.S. was capable of doing more than that in Afghanistan due to the amount of time they had and the space they had for C-17s. I'm not aware of any such presence in Lebanon but even if there were a presence, it's certainly not that big.
It's a lot harder to move 80k+ people in little five seater puddle jumpers than it is to move 110k in C-17s basically.
That makes a lot of sense. We did just send 12 warships over so the presence is increasing rapidly. Maybe they will be able to help people survive, but I don't think that's why they were sent, sadly..
That makes a lot of sense. We did just send 12 warships over so the presence is increasing rapidly. Maybe they will be able to help people survive, but I don't think that's why they were sent, sadly..
As opposed to… not telling them? It’s not like the US is the one doing the bombing. They believe through their intelligence services that there could be an escalation between them and Israel most...
Urging people to leave without at least supporting a travel option feels kind of fucked up.
As opposed to… not telling them? It’s not like the US is the one doing the bombing. They believe through their intelligence services that there could be an escalation between them and Israel most likely. The least they could do is tell the US nationals in Lebanon.
This hasn’t been the first time. There was a similar notice earlier this year. Nothing happened that time, which is not to say that nothing will happen this time, just that this is not quite an evacuation order either.
I just feel like a government owes its citizens more than "hey you should leave but you're on your own!" They could cover the cost of people flying back home. They could subsidize an airline...
I just feel like a government owes its citizens more than "hey you should leave but you're on your own!" They could cover the cost of people flying back home. They could subsidize an airline willing to keep operating between here and there. If they are telling people that their immediate action should be to leave quickly, it just makes sense to help them do it, I dunno.
It's common that when a situation deteriorates badly, the US charters flights to evacuate people. Is your argument that US citizens living abroad don't deserve support because they happen to be...
It's common that when a situation deteriorates badly, the US charters flights to evacuate people. Is your argument that US citizens living abroad don't deserve support because they happen to be somewhere when war breaks out? I don't get it. We have the resources, can you tell me who benefits from NOT helping anyone evacuate? What's the point of that. Punishment? Help me understand.
Realistic usage of resources? It’s not a realistic expectation for the US government to aid in all situations. They often try, if they can, and of course any employees at the embassy get rescued...
Realistic usage of resources? It’s not a realistic expectation for the US government to aid in all situations. They often try, if they can, and of course any employees at the embassy get rescued to the best of their ability, but it’s not a realistic expectation that the US government need to charter flights.
For one, a military intervention, even if it’s just an evacuation, is a lot more than what OP is talking about. And actually, it exactly illustrates the issue - if the military were to put boots...
For one, a military intervention, even if it’s just an evacuation, is a lot more than what OP is talking about. And actually, it exactly illustrates the issue - if the military were to put boots on the ground, you are now risking the lives of US servicemen.
Lebanon has been on the state department list of DO NOT TRAVEL for years. The US statement department categorizes Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. At some point you have to take personal responsibility for entering a country run by what the US government considers terrorists. Maybe that’s a risk that’s worth it, because of family or otherwise - that’s fine, that’s a personal decision.
But you can’t expect the US government to provide financial or certainly military aid to solve the personal risks you decided to take by knowingly entering a nation in a volatile region run by terrorists.
What you say is true, but it’s also true that it benefits the american people. Or at least the American government, to have citizens there, and that justifies consideration in my book.
What you say is true, but it’s also true that it benefits the american people. Or at least the American government, to have citizens there, and that justifies consideration in my book.
So...US Embassies don't do much to help in this situation. For serious events their advice is usually "gtfo on your own", or if bizarre dictatorship legal issues "here's a list of lawyers". For...
So...US Embassies don't do much to help in this situation. For serious events their advice is usually "gtfo on your own", or if bizarre dictatorship legal issues "here's a list of lawyers". For the most part they will not help citizens unless it becomes a newsworthy political issue.
It is definitely not like the movies where you run through the embassy gates and get saved by a bunch of marines. The reality is you probably have to make an appointment weeks ahead of time, park across the road in some shitty field, dodge traffic to get to the entrance, then go through 10+ minutes of security run by a G4S with local hires who may not speak the best English, then wait another 20-60 minutes to actually talk to any staff (who will be behind bullet proof glass). Oh, and you probably won't see any marines at all 🤣.
I wonder if it means that official action is more likely to trigger the violence. Like, if the US rolls up with a plane or something it'll get shot down. Or at least shot at.
I wonder if it means that official action is more likely to trigger the violence. Like, if the US rolls up with a plane or something it'll get shot down. Or at least shot at.
Maybe so. Maybe they will see how many get out commercially first. I don't even know how many of those 86k want to leave, it just seems scary. Shit is really popping off. It seems unlikely that...
Maybe so. Maybe they will see how many get out commercially first. I don't even know how many of those 86k want to leave, it just seems scary. Shit is really popping off. It seems unlikely that anyone would target a US plane though, given what we know would be the immediate consequences. I am more concerned that civilians will die from Israeli airstrikes, since they are the ones bombing in Lebanon already.
As of Aug 3, 2024, the most immediate worry is that Hezbollah in Lebanon might fire a barrage of missiles in coordination with Iran into Israel, almost certainly killing citizens there. Worries...
As of Aug 3, 2024, the most immediate worry is that Hezbollah in Lebanon might fire a barrage of missiles in coordination with Iran into Israel, almost certainly killing citizens there. Worries about Lebanon at this moment are generally a "what if that happens, and what if Israel responds". You should be just as concerned for civilians in Israel, especially since Hezbollah just killed Druze children in Israel playing soccer recently.
Israel has the best missile defense in the world, and its citizens don't face nearly the same challenges travelling. From all accounts, it is business as usual inside their borders, they still...
Israel has the best missile defense in the world, and its citizens don't face nearly the same challenges travelling. From all accounts, it is business as usual inside their borders, they still have active tourism right now. Not to mention their passports allow them safe entry into over 120 countries without a visa. I don't think the two civilian populations are in equal danger.
It's not wrong to feel compassion for people who have JUST been urged to evacuate a place, but have limited options in actually doing so. I don't think I need to redirect my concern.
It must be absolutely terrifying for them to watch what's happening in Gaza and know that Israel may decide to do that to them next, and also not have anywhere else to go. Being concerned for them is a normal response to watching this unfold.
Missile defenses can be overwhelmed. Hezbollah has enough in their arsenal to do so, if they choose to escalate it that far this time. Maybe they will, and if they do, it will be a tragedy on...
Missile defenses can be overwhelmed. Hezbollah has enough in their arsenal to do so, if they choose to escalate it that far this time. Maybe they will, and if they do, it will be a tragedy on Israeli civilians. Then Israel will probably escalate back and it will be a tragedy on Lebanese civilians. I only took issue with the way the original text was framed, as if Hezbollah was not already shooting missiles at Israeli civilians.
EDIT: Please no one misconstrue this to be downplaying Israel's actions and responsibilities in the region. I just see this as being terrible for innocent civilians on both sides. Both nations have had to endure a lot already and it can get worse. At this moment, Israeli civilians are undoubtedly in a safer stance than Lebanon's, so it can feel hard to feel sympathy there. But the 60k Israelis that have evacuated from the border with Lebanon are not doing so for no reason.
There are 10 Iron Dome interceptors, each containing 60 to 80 interceptors. With a 90% interception rate, the system intercept a maximum of 540–720 missiles before resupply. Hezbollah has an...
There are 10 Iron Dome interceptors, each containing 60 to 80 interceptors. With a 90% interception rate, the system intercept a maximum of 540–720 missiles before resupply.
Hezbollah has an estimated 150,000–200,000 projectiles — missiles, rockets, mortars, etc.
Yeah I'm less thinking directly attacking and more considering that they may have demanded no direct action.. 86k is also more than actually be evacuated by any one method. If they offered a...
Yeah I'm less thinking directly attacking and more considering that they may have demanded no direct action..
86k is also more than actually be evacuated by any one method. If they offered a flight or a train route I suspect the embassy would be more than swamped with people.
Most flights out have been cancelled and rerouted, there are some airlines still operating, but it is fewer. People are being told that if they can't afford a ticket, or a flight is not available, they can go to the embassy to request support through a repatriation loan. From the embassy website: "Actions to take: Make plans to depart that do not rely on the U.S. government."There are an estimated 86,000 US citizens in Lebanon. The US government is not arranging any actual transport for anyone who needs help getting out. I hope it means the US isn't about to bomb the shit out of them, but I am afraid it means they just don't care if those people die in airstrikes. Urging people to leave without at least supporting a travel option feels kind of fucked up.
The U.S. government is taking the best course of action available at this time by encouraging U.S. citizens who want to leave to leave now. It's a kind of arrogance and insane expectations to assume that the U.S. can simply come in with military planes and force Lebanon to accept that the U.S. will start military operations with boots on the ground and airlift 86k civilians (many of whom are probably dual nationals that don't want to leave).
Lebanon's been in a state of violence with Israel at least a couple decades. The recent crisis has been ongoing for almost a year now. If a U.S. citizen chose to stay there this long, that's on them. We can't just spend billions of dollars and risk soldiers' lives every time there's potentially violence and airlift people out. There's not a right to live wherever you want in the world outside of the U.S. and then expect the U.S. to muscle in and guarantee your safety.
EDIT: I understand there's frustration showing through my text here. I am so sick of sentiment like "Why doesn't the U.S. just save 86k people; are we the baddies?". And I know that not everyone had the luxury to just uproot in late 2023 and get out of Lebanon. The U.S. State Department makes it clear that we try to do the best we can, but there's limits to what we can do and that ultimately your safety is dependent on your awareness.
After Oct 7th, the US immediately arranged chartered flights for all US citizens seeking to evacuate Israel. Were you frustrated by that? Or relieved they had the support when they needed it.
If there is an implication that my frustration has to do with the U.S. helping its citizens overseas when possible, then there has been a gross misreading of my comment. I would not be frustrated with the U.S. rescuing people. I am frustrated that we take blame if we cannot do it in every scenario.
I am not surprised that the U.S. was able to offer more help in Israel after October 7th than its done in Lebanon right now. Israel is a friendlier nation to the U.S. than Lebanon. We have a stronger military relationship with Israel. Israel was not imminently about to be invaded to a degree that would endanger operations. Lebanon is controlled in part by a group (Hezbollah) that the U.S. had designated as terrorists at one point. The conditions were way easier in Israel than they are now in Lebanon.
Do you really believe Hezbollah is going to be as cooperative as Israel when it comes to the US military evacuating citizens? It is a completely different situation.
US forces on the ground doing an evacuation operation could at least delay Israel's movements, which seems good for Hezbollah?
Do we have US military forced on the ground in Lebanon? The internet says there are 75 military personnel there. Deploying more would probably not go over great I'd assume.
It's a lot of people, I don't know that we have actual options given how hair-trigger that situation is at the moment.
Why should the United States do something that is good for the terrorist organization Hezbollah? There is a level 4 travel advisory for Lebanon. There is no reason for US citizens to be there. At a certain point they need to deal with the consequences of their actions.
Also I doubt Hezbollah would be happy with Israel's biggest ally sending forces into their country. What would happen if Hezbollah attacks the US troops doing the evacuation? That would be a huge escalation and is an unnecessary risk in my opinion.
US military forces going unilaterally into Lebanon to do this would be an act of war. There is a night and day difference vs arranging charter flights out of friendly territory.
It was not immediately. It took about a week of just about every flight away from Israel either canceled or sold out -- I remember because I was following it for my friend's young daughter, who was solo traveling to Israel at the time. An additional factor for Israel is that there is no safe land border to leave from for Jews.
I checked the dates. The first evacuation flights were announced on the 12th, and leaving the 13th.
As a side note, this is part of why I suggest /anyone/ considering air travel to Israel to fly El-Al. They add flights when tensions flare, instead of canceling them.
India has done it multiple times for own people as well as other countries. In 1990 Iraqi invasion of Kuwait the figure was 170000. This is only 86k
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_airlift_of_Indians_from_Kuwait
I mean, The situation in Lebanon isn't exactly new and the U.S. doesn't really have inside connections to support pulling out that many people. I'm sure they have assets to support an Embassy evac but U.S. presence in the region is relatively low. The U.S. was capable of doing more than that in Afghanistan due to the amount of time they had and the space they had for C-17s. I'm not aware of any such presence in Lebanon but even if there were a presence, it's certainly not that big.
It's a lot harder to move 80k+ people in little five seater puddle jumpers than it is to move 110k in C-17s basically.
That makes a lot of sense. We did just send 12 warships over so the presence is increasing rapidly. Maybe they will be able to help people survive, but I don't think that's why they were sent, sadly..
As opposed to… not telling them? It’s not like the US is the one doing the bombing. They believe through their intelligence services that there could be an escalation between them and Israel most likely. The least they could do is tell the US nationals in Lebanon.
This hasn’t been the first time. There was a similar notice earlier this year. Nothing happened that time, which is not to say that nothing will happen this time, just that this is not quite an evacuation order either.
I just feel like a government owes its citizens more than "hey you should leave but you're on your own!" They could cover the cost of people flying back home. They could subsidize an airline willing to keep operating between here and there. If they are telling people that their immediate action should be to leave quickly, it just makes sense to help them do it, I dunno.
Why? The US government didn’t force anyone to move to Lebanon.
It's common that when a situation deteriorates badly, the US charters flights to evacuate people. Is your argument that US citizens living abroad don't deserve support because they happen to be somewhere when war breaks out? I don't get it. We have the resources, can you tell me who benefits from NOT helping anyone evacuate? What's the point of that. Punishment? Help me understand.
Realistic usage of resources? It’s not a realistic expectation for the US government to aid in all situations. They often try, if they can, and of course any employees at the embassy get rescued to the best of their ability, but it’s not a realistic expectation that the US government need to charter flights.
What's the point of having all those military bases in the Middle East if you aren't going to use them to protect your citizens?
For one, a military intervention, even if it’s just an evacuation, is a lot more than what OP is talking about. And actually, it exactly illustrates the issue - if the military were to put boots on the ground, you are now risking the lives of US servicemen.
Lebanon has been on the state department list of DO NOT TRAVEL for years. The US statement department categorizes Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. At some point you have to take personal responsibility for entering a country run by what the US government considers terrorists. Maybe that’s a risk that’s worth it, because of family or otherwise - that’s fine, that’s a personal decision.
But you can’t expect the US government to provide financial or certainly military aid to solve the personal risks you decided to take by knowingly entering a nation in a volatile region run by terrorists.
What you say is true, but it’s also true that it benefits the american people. Or at least the American government, to have citizens there, and that justifies consideration in my book.
So...US Embassies don't do much to help in this situation. For serious events their advice is usually "gtfo on your own", or if bizarre dictatorship legal issues "here's a list of lawyers". For the most part they will not help citizens unless it becomes a newsworthy political issue.
It is definitely not like the movies where you run through the embassy gates and get saved by a bunch of marines. The reality is you probably have to make an appointment weeks ahead of time, park across the road in some shitty field, dodge traffic to get to the entrance, then go through 10+ minutes of security run by a G4S with local hires who may not speak the best English, then wait another 20-60 minutes to actually talk to any staff (who will be behind bullet proof glass). Oh, and you probably won't see any marines at all 🤣.
I wonder if it means that official action is more likely to trigger the violence. Like, if the US rolls up with a plane or something it'll get shot down. Or at least shot at.
Maybe so. Maybe they will see how many get out commercially first. I don't even know how many of those 86k want to leave, it just seems scary. Shit is really popping off. It seems unlikely that anyone would target a US plane though, given what we know would be the immediate consequences. I am more concerned that civilians will die from Israeli airstrikes, since they are the ones bombing in Lebanon already.
As of Aug 3, 2024, the most immediate worry is that Hezbollah in Lebanon might fire a barrage of missiles in coordination with Iran into Israel, almost certainly killing citizens there. Worries about Lebanon at this moment are generally a "what if that happens, and what if Israel responds". You should be just as concerned for civilians in Israel, especially since Hezbollah just killed Druze children in Israel playing soccer recently.
Israel has the best missile defense in the world, and its citizens don't face nearly the same challenges travelling. From all accounts, it is business as usual inside their borders, they still have active tourism right now. Not to mention their passports allow them safe entry into over 120 countries without a visa. I don't think the two civilian populations are in equal danger.
It's not wrong to feel compassion for people who have JUST been urged to evacuate a place, but have limited options in actually doing so. I don't think I need to redirect my concern.
It must be absolutely terrifying for them to watch what's happening in Gaza and know that Israel may decide to do that to them next, and also not have anywhere else to go. Being concerned for them is a normal response to watching this unfold.
Missile defenses can be overwhelmed. Hezbollah has enough in their arsenal to do so, if they choose to escalate it that far this time. Maybe they will, and if they do, it will be a tragedy on Israeli civilians. Then Israel will probably escalate back and it will be a tragedy on Lebanese civilians. I only took issue with the way the original text was framed, as if Hezbollah was not already shooting missiles at Israeli civilians.
EDIT: Please no one misconstrue this to be downplaying Israel's actions and responsibilities in the region. I just see this as being terrible for innocent civilians on both sides. Both nations have had to endure a lot already and it can get worse. At this moment, Israeli civilians are undoubtedly in a safer stance than Lebanon's, so it can feel hard to feel sympathy there. But the 60k Israelis that have evacuated from the border with Lebanon are not doing so for no reason.
There are 10 Iron Dome interceptors, each containing 60 to 80 interceptors. With a 90% interception rate, the system intercept a maximum of 540–720 missiles before resupply.
Hezbollah has an estimated 150,000–200,000 projectiles — missiles, rockets, mortars, etc.
Yeah I'm less thinking directly attacking and more considering that they may have demanded no direct action..
86k is also more than actually be evacuated by any one method. If they offered a flight or a train route I suspect the embassy would be more than swamped with people.