I'm not really interested in debating this given how this kind of thing plays out here, but I guess I should at least mention that these actions of people aligning themselves with antifa are...
I'm not really interested in debating this given how this kind of thing plays out here, but I guess I should at least mention that these actions of people aligning themselves with antifa are pretty unambiguously fine in my eyes. This is all coming from the perspective of someone who sees them as "the good guys" here, but I think my point works regardless.
The only reason I'm here is that this is either an incredibly dishonest or misinformed article. They have to understand that antifa is primarily composed of anarchists and socialists and is mostly an extension of what those groups consider good praxis to be, right? It's a very bad look to write an article about a (movement, group of groups, whatever) that acts like the ideological underpinnings of it don't go beyond the name of the group. Even outside of how cops regularly abuse any meaningful protest beyond silently holding a sign, these groups view cops as fundamentally violent in how they uphold the status quo, protect private property, and are generally arms of a state that neither believes should even exist.
If you want to argue against that, fine, Vox...whatever. But don't give me this
How that factors into antifa’s ideology is anyone’s guess.
trash. If you're going to vilify antifa, which I would rather you not do but you will anyway, at least do it from the grounds of the actual beliefs that most members have, not by ignoring what the group is about in order to push a narrative of them being being random maniacs who just want to hit stuff. This is just a really bad piece of journalism.
I understand why other defenders of antifa might want to get behind the "fascists cause violence more often" issue, as it's usually an easy win in the short term, but I think it's misdirected and pinning this on random individuals is also misdirected, even if it might be true in some cases.
They are militant anti fascist groups that literally preach violence against people that oppose them. They regularly use Black bloc tactics to commit criminal activities and acts of violence while...
grounds of the actual beliefs that most members have
They are militant anti fascist groups that literally preach violence against people that oppose them. They regularly use Black bloc tactics to commit criminal activities and acts of violence while escaping prosecution. They show up to protests and events ready and prepared for violence.
They are no better than the alt right nut jobs they are going after, in some ways they are worse.
They should be vilified.
The amount of people in here defending them is disgusting.
Well, yes. Let's get one thing straight, the AltRight is made up of tons of different nut job groups and neo nazis are only a small part of their numbers. Like, a really small part even at the...
Well, yes.
Let's get one thing straight, the AltRight is made up of tons of different nut job groups and neo nazis are only a small part of their numbers. Like, a really small part even at the original Charlottesville protest the Nazis were a small percentage of the AltRight protesters. You cannot just put that one small groups beliefs on the entirely of the larger group.
The Antifa preaches violence. They are a handful of loosely connected militant groups literally on the Homeland Security watch list. They use militant anarchist tactics (like Black bloc) to commit acts of violence. Make no mistake, they do not go into "counterprotests" expecting to keep the situation peaceful, they are there to escalate the situation and wanting the outbreak of violence.
So yea, if a crazy nut job white supremacist is peacefully (and legally) protesting his crappy beliefs, the group that is coming after him in violence is worse.
So you fight their current non-violence with non-violence. Just because their ideology have the potential to lead to violence does not suddenly make unprompted violence against them justifiable....
So you fight their current non-violence with non-violence.
Just because their ideology have the potential to lead to violence does not suddenly make unprompted violence against them justifiable.
If someone was saying rude things to me and I punched him in the face, I would get charged with assault. It wouldn't matter that he was being rude because I caused the violence. Is that really a hard concept for people to understand? Seriously, I don't get it.
Even civil rights leaders around the nation have condemned the Antifa for acting in the manor they have. They will only serve to make situations worse, cost lives and spread violence regardless of why they are doing it. And thats what they want.
You are posting articles on crime statistics as a way to justify the Antifa attacking peaceful protestors? I... I don't even know what to say to that. That's a completely different thing. If a...
You are posting articles on crime statistics as a way to justify the Antifa attacking peaceful protestors?
I... I don't even know what to say to that. That's a completely different thing.
If a protestor is protesting peacefully you do not have the right to attack them (as the Antifa have been doing) just because you do not like that ideology. It doesn't matter how depraved said ideology they have the right to express themselves peacefully.
I am an atheist, I think organized religions are garbage and only lead to bad things. But heyy, by your logic it would be okay for me to attack a peaceful Islamic protest because other Muslims have committed acts of violence? Or attack a peaceful Christian gathering because of the crusades?
I'm unsure why you chose my comment to also springboard off of, given that it was just a criticism of the article treating these actions as non-ideological and random. Hell, if you think they're...
I'm unsure why you chose my comment to also springboard off of, given that it was just a criticism of the article treating these actions as non-ideological and random. Hell, if you think they're evil and this is an example of that, you should agree with me.
I was agreeing with you, lol my bad, it came off as way more hostile than intended. I am seriously frustrated by the amount of people in here blindly defending them. In my head I was just...
I was agreeing with you, lol my bad, it came off as way more hostile than intended. I am seriously frustrated by the amount of people in here blindly defending them. In my head I was just expanding on the reality of what they are, obviously it didn't come across that way.
I have said this before here but violent Antifa tactics are a huge propaganda gift to the alt-right. When I last googled right wing violence in the USA there was an AdWords result right on top for...
I have said this before here but violent Antifa tactics are a huge propaganda gift to the alt-right.
When I last googled right wing violence in the USA there was an AdWords result right on top for a think tank piece about antifa violence.
Antifa should absolutely be vilified as long as violence is an accepted tactic. They are such a huge boon to the alt-right that it boggles my mind how people could be that stupid. (Meaning those who are part of Antifa)
I am so glad other people get that. Everyone seems to be fixating on their own emotional response to the situation while ignoring logic and the bigger picture.
huge propaganda gift to the alt-right.
I am so glad other people get that.
Everyone seems to be fixating on their own emotional response to the situation while ignoring logic and the bigger picture.
Not that there's anything wrong with anyone having a strong emotional response to something like this, but I really can't find any cases of this happening, if you're referring to this thread....
Not that there's anything wrong with anyone having a strong emotional response to something like this, but I really can't find any cases of this happening, if you're referring to this thread.
You're allowed to be smug and act like other people just don't understand all you want, but you're making up an emotional boogeyman who has denounced all reason and logic who just isn't here. There are other reasons for people to disagree with you.
Everyone here is engaging with your ideas and being almost excessively polite. We're bending over backwards for you so we can maintain the style of conversation this site demands, could you at least return the favor?
Frankly, when Antifa first came on the scene I was halfway certain that they were just other white supremacists in disguise making news stories for themselves. Antifa was an alt right bogeyman far...
Frankly, when Antifa first came on the scene I was halfway certain that they were just other white supremacists in disguise making news stories for themselves. Antifa was an alt right bogeyman far before they decided to be violent. Even today concrete evidence of Antifa organizations seem either hard to come by or appear so sketchy that they could believably be fake.
I didn’t want to get all tin-foily, but I had the exact same reaction as everything you just said. However, planted agitators are nothing new or unheard of. Thanks for saying all of that....
I didn’t want to get all tin-foily, but I had the exact same reaction as everything you just said. However, planted agitators are nothing new or unheard of. Thanks for saying all of that.
A political organization or government may use agents provocateurs against political opponents. The provocateurs try to incite the opponent to do counter-productive or ineffective acts to foster public disdain or provide a pretext for aggression against the opponent.
In the article itself. But also; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable_street_protests_and_violence And there are other violent occurrences missing from these sources i'll...
In the article itself.
This is not the first time antifa protesters have been violent. In August 2017, about 100 anarchists and antifa members assaulted far-right demonstrators who were marching peacefully in Berkeley, California, with pepper spray, water bottles, and direct physical assault.
I'm not sure what you're arguing? I didn't say that "Antifa is more violent than neo-nazis". I said "This is not the first or even the first handful of times Antifa has been more violent than the...
I'm not sure what you're arguing? I didn't say that "Antifa is more violent than neo-nazis". I said "This is not the first or even the first handful of times Antifa has been more violent than the fascists it claims to be fighting against" I was referring to this event, and others where they claimed to be fighting nazi's, but instead they fought attendees, journalists and cops.
Are you joking? The Antifa have been catalysts for confrontation and violence everywhere they go. In almost every "counterprotest" they have put on, they are the group initiating violence and...
If you have sources for those claims, I'd love to see them.
Are you joking? The Antifa have been catalysts for confrontation and violence everywhere they go. In almost every "counterprotest" they have put on, they are the group initiating violence and causing mayhem. They regularly use Black bloc tactics to get away with violence and crime. The Alt-Right says and represents some fucked up shit, but it's literally in the Antifa's group dynamic to be violent against them, regardless of whether or not they are being peaceful. The group is in many ways worse than the people the are counter protesting.
Coming at peaceful protesters using black bloc tactics with the intention of violence is wrong regardless of what those protesters are preaching. It's messed up you, or anyone, would claim that...
Coming at peaceful protesters using black bloc tactics with the intention of violence is wrong regardless of what those protesters are preaching.
It's messed up you, or anyone, would claim that white supremacists having a history of violence somehow means violence against the ones being peaceful is justified.
That same massively messed up logic could be used to justify both sides. Ignorance like that is no better than the Alt Right's.
To participate and advocate against the safety of an individual, or an individual's liberty, that individual, whom you would seek to oppress and restrain, has the total right to free himself from you by stopping your tirade.
That same massively messed up logic could be used to justify both sides. Ignorance like that is no better than the Alt Right's.
I can see the fairness of violence for violence, eye for an eye, and I can see its efficacy in reducing harm - to an extent - but I can’t find restitution in it. Honor yes, and vengeance, but not...
I can see the fairness of violence for violence, eye for an eye, and I can see its efficacy in reducing harm - to an extent - but I can’t find restitution in it. Honor yes, and vengeance, but not order or remorse or redemption. Hate and violence are the maladaptive beliefs and behaviors of those who already feel rejected and abandoned, who are entangled in a dysfunctional social group, and who act out through addiction to rage. Hate is disarmed by empathy, not by violence.
From a WaPo article about the violence of antifa: Here's an article from Fox News that mentions a victim that had to be dragged away before he was killed by antifa. Here's an article from The...
Neo-Nazis are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that killed 25 million people last century. Antifa members are the violent advocates of a murderous ideology that, according to “The Black Book of Communism,” killed between 85 million and 100 million people last century. Both practice violence and preach hate. They are morally indistinguishable. There is no difference between those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Hitler and Himmler and those who beat innocent people in the name of the ideology that gave us Stalin and Dzerzhinsky.
Videos from the conflict on social media show one man being knocked to the ground and kicked repeatedly as he covers his head with his hands. In another, a man lying on the ground is dragged away from a group of attackers, his face bloodied. In a third, two men — including one wearing homemade body armor — take swings at a third man who is backed against a wall with his arms raised.
Antifa activists threw bricks until the police dispersed them with stun grenades and tear gas.
What’s eroding in Portland is the quality Max Weber considered essential to a functioning state: a monopoly on legitimate violence. As members of a largely anarchist movement, antifascists don’t want the government to stop white supremacists from gathering. They want to do so themselves, rendering the government impotent.
So I guess the only thing preventing antifa from a confirmed kill is lack of aim or their targets being just lucky enough to have their unconscious body dragged out of there before they could be killed.
@kat tried to say antifa are not as violent because they haven’t killed anyone (funnily enough the infographic they linked debunks that as well), so my point was to try to show links that show...
@kat tried to say antifa are not as violent because they haven’t killed anyone (funnily enough the infographic they linked debunks that as well), so my point was to try to show links that show antifa is violent as well, i guess clumsily trying to say degrees of violence should not be an indication of more or less violence. Cherry picked facts are pretty shitty IMO. It’s the same as Nazis cherry picking stats to try to show that blacks are more prone to violence and crime.
To me, violence is wrong. Blind hatred for someone is wrong. We shouldn’t try to distinguish between more or less evil, more or less violent, etc, but instead stopping the hate and violence.
You’re literally just trying to argue semantics now. I don’t care to differentiate between extremists as alt-left, antifa, whatever just as an extremist on the right is alt-right, a nazi, etc....
You’re literally just trying to argue semantics now. I don’t care to differentiate between extremists as alt-left, antifa, whatever just as an extremist on the right is alt-right, a nazi, etc. They are all terrorists using the threat of violence to impose their beliefs on others.
Only confirmed kills are grounds for violence now? Or should I repeat the WaPo stat of 25 million to the Nazis vs 100 million to the communists. Who’s more violent now? Why are you so concerned...
Only confirmed kills are grounds for violence now? Or should I repeat the WaPo stat of 25 million to the Nazis vs 100 million to the communists. Who’s more violent now? Why are you so concerned with who is more violent instead of how to stop the violence?
By passing laws that outlaw bigotry and hate speech. By putting pressure on politicians and leaders who allow or support these groups, not by more violence or vigilante justice.
How can you stop violence whilst inherently violent platforms are allowed to fester and damage the sanctimonious fabric of your society?
By passing laws that outlaw bigotry and hate speech. By putting pressure on politicians and leaders who allow or support these groups, not by more violence or vigilante justice.
Yeah, I didn’t mean for it to go astray like it did. I’m bad with words and really just wanted to point out that it’s wrong to try to justify as lesser of evils or less violent of fundamentally...
Yeah, I didn’t mean for it to go astray like it did. I’m bad with words and really just wanted to point out that it’s wrong to try to justify as lesser of evils or less violent of fundamentally violent groups.
You mean the rally that the Antifa showed up to in force possibly being the catalyst for the events that caused that woman's death? If they had never came at the Alt Right in Charlottesville,...
You mean the rally that the Antifa showed up to in force possibly being the catalyst for the events that caused that woman's death?
If they had never came at the Alt Right in Charlottesville, things would never have escalated in the manor they did. Their violent presence rose tensions and made this situation worse than it ever needed to be. No, they didn't drive the car that killed her, but they caused the situation that lead to her death.
Both groups are equally garbage. Both groups are responsible for that woman's death, equally.
That is just ignoring the fundamentals of how confrontation works. Sure, the white supremacist committed the crime, but the Antifa caused the situation that made the murder possible in the first...
That is just ignoring the fundamentals of how confrontation works.
Sure, the white supremacist committed the crime, but the Antifa caused the situation that made the murder possible in the first place.
Without their involvement the protest would never have escalated to violence and the death could have been avoided.
This idea is echoed all over reddit, and everywhere, because it's 100% true. Its sad that people get so involved in the emotion of the situation that they ignore that. I am obviously not saying the Antifia committed the murder, but they are to blame for the situation that made it possible.
Please stay away from personal attacks. I'm pretty close to locking this thread, because the discussion is quickly drifting away from anything productive. (I'm not blaming you individually for...
Its sad that people like you don't understand that.
Please stay away from personal attacks. I'm pretty close to locking this thread, because the discussion is quickly drifting away from anything productive. (I'm not blaming you individually for that, but it's not progressing very well overall)
It needs to be mentioned in any discussion about the left-wing response to the alt right movement that classic techniques of discrediting the movements and manipulating their reputations are...
It needs to be mentioned in any discussion about the left-wing response to the alt right movement that classic techniques of discrediting the movements and manipulating their reputations are widespread. We can’t document it, though—how many agitators are wearing masks and starting the violence themselves. But laying all these crimes, unexamined, at the feet of Antifa is what the authorities want us to do.
If you want a counterview of the Charlottesville actions, check out this report from some participants: https://itsgoingdown.org/last-year-they-came-with-torches-this-year-with-badges/ Everything...
I've seen a lot of people defending the actions of Antifa on reddit, and sometimes on Tilde, so i'd like to know your opinions on what happened in Charlottesville yesterday. This is not the first...
I've seen a lot of people defending the actions of Antifa on reddit, and sometimes on Tilde, so i'd like to know your opinions on what happened in Charlottesville yesterday. This is not the first or even the first handful of times Antifa has been more violent than the fascists it claims to be fighting against. Based on their attacking of reporters and police, it seems like they came ready for a fight and didn't find one with the supposed neo-nazi's that were to show.
Does this make it more likely that Donald Trump was right in saying that there are good and bad people on both sides? Or should everyone who showed up yesterday to counter-protest be held responsible for the violent activity and violent speech of Antifa? Should the media speak up more against the actual physical violence that was committed against journalists yesterday?
Disclaimer: I shouldn't have to say this, but I obviously condemn and see the violent, racist and bigoted individuals that showed up to last years rally to be vile identity ideologues who deserve to be outed and face the consequences of their actions. But it certainly doesn't make me see Antifa's vigilante violence as a solution.
...to me, the violence from antifa is UNDERSTANDABLE. I do not condone it, but I UNDERSTAND why they are resorting to what they are resorting to. We've seen what fascism leads to (and is currently...
...to me, the violence from antifa is UNDERSTANDABLE. I do not condone it, but I UNDERSTAND why they are resorting to what they are resorting to.
We've seen what fascism leads to (and is currently leading us to). And when the political options are getting exhausted/we're all hinged on the midterms (which have not shown any signs of being protected from interference), people are not getting listened to when they protest, and altrighters are just making things worse, violence is to be expected.
And since politicians aren't as accessible for these people, antifa are instead turning to the enablers.
When the shooting happened at that republican baseball game a year or so ago... I was not in the least bit surprised. If I recall correctly republicans had just dealt a huge blow to healthcare the week before, and aside from physically killing the people themselves, I'm not sure how much more responsible you can get for killing the sick people off in this country. So violence was an UNDERSTANDABLE reaction.
I guess that sums it up: I am not surprised. The police aren't doing anything. (Most of) the politicians aren't doing anything. And openly-fascist people are just making things worse. And when the world is dying, families are getting separated, and there's just so much shit going on and less to live for, I think this is the result: violence against bigotry and fascism versus, versus the right being violent for... what? Homophobia? Xenophobia?
Edit: Also, the controversy behind Trump saying "bad people on both sides" wasn't whether he was right or wrong, it was that he never denounced the right/nazis/fascists, he implied maybe the crowd at the had enabled the violence (they hadn't).
I'm always fascinated by this sort of thing. People love to pretend we're better than the 'animals', somehow above violence, murder, and nature. We're simply the worst animal. Our cleverness...
I'm always fascinated by this sort of thing. People love to pretend we're better than the 'animals', somehow above violence, murder, and nature. We're simply the worst animal. Our cleverness allows us to do violence on a scale unprecedented in nature, without even being there in person, and lie to ourselves about it every day, making it as if it never happened.
The social contract is the only reason this is held in check. It's always been a tenuous counter of our own tribal tendencies. Now, forces are upsetting the social contract. When that contract goes away (whatever form it takes) the violence always returns, until it burns itself out and a new social contract takes over. That's not guaranteed to happen, either. The violence is perfectly capable of becoming the new (old) normal, as it is in many parts of the world.
Don't fuck with the social contract, that's rule number one for civilization.
Today, we've got multiple forces pulling at that contract. Most people who truly know what war is and what war means are dead (and that's progress, in a way). We've gone past the point where words mean anything, anymore. We're just about at the point where we're 'done talking.' When that happens, it's all downhill. Everyone's blaming their neighbors for the problems that poor governance has created, as is tradition throughout history. That anger is immune to reason. It demands an angry response from the other party, that's part of our own nature... most people never learn to rise above those impulses.
Vote in November, and hope for some sanity to be restored. If that fails, there will be blood. That's a fucking promise. I'm expecting blood no matter the outcome, but one of these outcomes is far worse than the other.
There's no excuse for attacking journalists but the police have been repeatedly shown to inflict unnecessary force toward mainly left-wing protesters regardless of how peaceful they are and it...
There's no excuse for attacking journalists but the police have been repeatedly shown to inflict unnecessary force toward mainly left-wing protesters regardless of how peaceful they are and it seems as though the violence from police have been getting worse ever since the Dakota Access pipeline protests. I don't see the police as being innocent bystanders at all.
I'm going to lock this topic for now. I may unlock it again tomorrow, but I don't want to leave it unattended overnight with the direction the discussion's been tending towards.
I'm going to lock this topic for now. I may unlock it again tomorrow, but I don't want to leave it unattended overnight with the direction the discussion's been tending towards.
I'm not really interested in debating this given how this kind of thing plays out here, but I guess I should at least mention that these actions of people aligning themselves with antifa are pretty unambiguously fine in my eyes. This is all coming from the perspective of someone who sees them as "the good guys" here, but I think my point works regardless.
The only reason I'm here is that this is either an incredibly dishonest or misinformed article. They have to understand that antifa is primarily composed of anarchists and socialists and is mostly an extension of what those groups consider good praxis to be, right? It's a very bad look to write an article about a (movement, group of groups, whatever) that acts like the ideological underpinnings of it don't go beyond the name of the group. Even outside of how cops regularly abuse any meaningful protest beyond silently holding a sign, these groups view cops as fundamentally violent in how they uphold the status quo, protect private property, and are generally arms of a state that neither believes should even exist.
If you want to argue against that, fine, Vox...whatever. But don't give me this
trash. If you're going to vilify antifa, which I would rather you not do but you will anyway, at least do it from the grounds of the actual beliefs that most members have, not by ignoring what the group is about in order to push a narrative of them being being random maniacs who just want to hit stuff. This is just a really bad piece of journalism.
I understand why other defenders of antifa might want to get behind the "fascists cause violence more often" issue, as it's usually an easy win in the short term, but I think it's misdirected and pinning this on random individuals is also misdirected, even if it might be true in some cases.
(edited a bit for clarity on my position)
They are militant anti fascist groups that literally preach violence against people that oppose them. They regularly use Black bloc tactics to commit criminal activities and acts of violence while escaping prosecution. They show up to protests and events ready and prepared for violence.
They are no better than the alt right nut jobs they are going after, in some ways they are worse.
They should be vilified.
The amount of people in here defending them is disgusting.
Well, yes.
Let's get one thing straight, the AltRight is made up of tons of different nut job groups and neo nazis are only a small part of their numbers. Like, a really small part even at the original Charlottesville protest the Nazis were a small percentage of the AltRight protesters. You cannot just put that one small groups beliefs on the entirely of the larger group.
The Antifa preaches violence. They are a handful of loosely connected militant groups literally on the Homeland Security watch list. They use militant anarchist tactics (like Black bloc) to commit acts of violence. Make no mistake, they do not go into "counterprotests" expecting to keep the situation peaceful, they are there to escalate the situation and wanting the outbreak of violence.
So yea, if a crazy nut job white supremacist is peacefully (and legally) protesting his crappy beliefs, the group that is coming after him in violence is worse.
So you fight their current non-violence with non-violence.
Just because their ideology have the potential to lead to violence does not suddenly make unprompted violence against them justifiable.
If someone was saying rude things to me and I punched him in the face, I would get charged with assault. It wouldn't matter that he was being rude because I caused the violence. Is that really a hard concept for people to understand? Seriously, I don't get it.
Even civil rights leaders around the nation have condemned the Antifa for acting in the manor they have. They will only serve to make situations worse, cost lives and spread violence regardless of why they are doing it. And thats what they want.
They are not helping anything.
You are posting articles on crime statistics as a way to justify the Antifa attacking peaceful protestors?
I... I don't even know what to say to that. That's a completely different thing.
If a protestor is protesting peacefully you do not have the right to attack them (as the Antifa have been doing) just because you do not like that ideology. It doesn't matter how depraved said ideology they have the right to express themselves peacefully.
I am an atheist, I think organized religions are garbage and only lead to bad things. But heyy, by your logic it would be okay for me to attack a peaceful Islamic protest because other Muslims have committed acts of violence? Or attack a peaceful Christian gathering because of the crusades?
Do you seriously not see how bad that logic is?
I'm unsure why you chose my comment to also springboard off of, given that it was just a criticism of the article treating these actions as non-ideological and random. Hell, if you think they're evil and this is an example of that, you should agree with me.
Are you just trying to provoke me?
I was agreeing with you, lol my bad, it came off as way more hostile than intended. I am seriously frustrated by the amount of people in here blindly defending them. In my head I was just expanding on the reality of what they are, obviously it didn't come across that way.
Antifa are throwing eggs, water bottles, and fireworks. The alt-right ran over 19 people with a car, killing one.
These do not sound the same to me.
I have said this before here but violent Antifa tactics are a huge propaganda gift to the alt-right.
When I last googled right wing violence in the USA there was an AdWords result right on top for a think tank piece about antifa violence.
Antifa should absolutely be vilified as long as violence is an accepted tactic. They are such a huge boon to the alt-right that it boggles my mind how people could be that stupid. (Meaning those who are part of Antifa)
Edit: clarity
I am so glad other people get that.
Everyone seems to be fixating on their own emotional response to the situation while ignoring logic and the bigger picture.
Not that there's anything wrong with anyone having a strong emotional response to something like this, but I really can't find any cases of this happening, if you're referring to this thread.
You're allowed to be smug and act like other people just don't understand all you want, but you're making up an emotional boogeyman who has denounced all reason and logic who just isn't here. There are other reasons for people to disagree with you.
Everyone here is engaging with your ideas and being almost excessively polite. We're bending over backwards for you so we can maintain the style of conversation this site demands, could you at least return the favor?
Frankly, when Antifa first came on the scene I was halfway certain that they were just other white supremacists in disguise making news stories for themselves. Antifa was an alt right bogeyman far before they decided to be violent. Even today concrete evidence of Antifa organizations seem either hard to come by or appear so sketchy that they could believably be fake.
I didn’t want to get all tin-foily, but I had the exact same reaction as everything you just said. However, planted agitators are nothing new or unheard of. Thanks for saying all of that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur
In the article itself.
But also;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable_street_protests_and_violence
And there are other violent occurrences missing from these sources i'll dig up after work if you'd like.
I'm not sure what you're arguing? I didn't say that "Antifa is more violent than neo-nazis". I said "This is not the first or even the first handful of times Antifa has been more violent than the fascists it claims to be fighting against" I was referring to this event, and others where they claimed to be fighting nazi's, but instead they fought attendees, journalists and cops.
Are you joking? The Antifa have been catalysts for confrontation and violence everywhere they go. In almost every "counterprotest" they have put on, they are the group initiating violence and causing mayhem. They regularly use Black bloc tactics to get away with violence and crime. The Alt-Right says and represents some fucked up shit, but it's literally in the Antifa's group dynamic to be violent against them, regardless of whether or not they are being peaceful. The group is in many ways worse than the people the are counter protesting.
Coming at peaceful protesters using black bloc tactics with the intention of violence is wrong regardless of what those protesters are preaching.
It's messed up you, or anyone, would claim that white supremacists having a history of violence somehow means violence against the ones being peaceful is justified.
That same massively messed up logic could be used to justify both sides. Ignorance like that is no better than the Alt Right's.
I can see the fairness of violence for violence, eye for an eye, and I can see its efficacy in reducing harm - to an extent - but I can’t find restitution in it. Honor yes, and vengeance, but not order or remorse or redemption. Hate and violence are the maladaptive beliefs and behaviors of those who already feel rejected and abandoned, who are entangled in a dysfunctional social group, and who act out through addiction to rage. Hate is disarmed by empathy, not by violence.
From a WaPo article about the violence of antifa:
Here's an article from Fox News that mentions a victim that had to be dragged away before he was killed by antifa.
Here's an article from The Atlantic talking about how antifa threw bricks until riot police had to shoot tear gas at them.
What’s eroding in Portland is the quality Max Weber considered essential to a functioning state: a monopoly on legitimate violence. As members of a largely anarchist movement, antifascists don’t want the government to stop white supremacists from gathering. They want to do so themselves, rendering the government impotent.
So I guess the only thing preventing antifa from a confirmed kill is lack of aim or their targets being just lucky enough to have their unconscious body dragged out of there before they could be killed.
@kat tried to say antifa are not as violent because they haven’t killed anyone (funnily enough the infographic they linked debunks that as well), so my point was to try to show links that show antifa is violent as well, i guess clumsily trying to say degrees of violence should not be an indication of more or less violence. Cherry picked facts are pretty shitty IMO. It’s the same as Nazis cherry picking stats to try to show that blacks are more prone to violence and crime.
To me, violence is wrong. Blind hatred for someone is wrong. We shouldn’t try to distinguish between more or less evil, more or less violent, etc, but instead stopping the hate and violence.
You’re literally just trying to argue semantics now. I don’t care to differentiate between extremists as alt-left, antifa, whatever just as an extremist on the right is alt-right, a nazi, etc. They are all terrorists using the threat of violence to impose their beliefs on others.
Only confirmed kills are grounds for violence now? Or should I repeat the WaPo stat of 25 million to the Nazis vs 100 million to the communists. Who’s more violent now? Why are you so concerned with who is more violent instead of how to stop the violence?
Unless you've got a time machine, death tolls from decades ago aren't relevant to the question of how to stop the violence that's happening now.
I agree, but they are great signs that show that continued violence obviously doesn’t stop the violence
How do you get to that conclusion, exactly? Allied forces shooting Nazis helped bring an end to the Holocaust, didn't it?
And here we are over half a century later still with Nazis and continued violence.
By passing laws that outlaw bigotry and hate speech. By putting pressure on politicians and leaders who allow or support these groups, not by more violence or vigilante justice.
This feels like a weird direction to go with the discussion.
Yeah, I didn’t mean for it to go astray like it did. I’m bad with words and really just wanted to point out that it’s wrong to try to justify as lesser of evils or less violent of fundamentally violent groups.
You mean the rally that the Antifa showed up to in force possibly being the catalyst for the events that caused that woman's death?
If they had never came at the Alt Right in Charlottesville, things would never have escalated in the manor they did. Their violent presence rose tensions and made this situation worse than it ever needed to be. No, they didn't drive the car that killed her, but they caused the situation that lead to her death.
Both groups are equally garbage. Both groups are responsible for that woman's death, equally.
Now you are just putting words in my mouth. I clearly didn't say that.
That is just ignoring the fundamentals of how confrontation works.
Sure, the white supremacist committed the crime, but the Antifa caused the situation that made the murder possible in the first place.
Without their involvement the protest would never have escalated to violence and the death could have been avoided.
This idea is echoed all over reddit, and everywhere, because it's 100% true. Its sad that people get so involved in the emotion of the situation that they ignore that. I am obviously not saying the Antifia committed the murder, but they are to blame for the situation that made it possible.
Please stay away from personal attacks. I'm pretty close to locking this thread, because the discussion is quickly drifting away from anything productive. (I'm not blaming you individually for that, but it's not progressing very well overall)
Shoot, I was trying to. I fixed it and clarified what I was trying to say.
It needs to be mentioned in any discussion about the left-wing response to the alt right movement that classic techniques of discrediting the movements and manipulating their reputations are widespread. We can’t document it, though—how many agitators are wearing masks and starting the violence themselves. But laying all these crimes, unexamined, at the feet of Antifa is what the authorities want us to do.
If you want a counterview of the Charlottesville actions, check out this report from some participants: https://itsgoingdown.org/last-year-they-came-with-torches-this-year-with-badges/
Everything I'd say about this piece, someone else here already has.
I've seen a lot of people defending the actions of Antifa on reddit, and sometimes on Tilde, so i'd like to know your opinions on what happened in Charlottesville yesterday. This is not the first or even the first handful of times Antifa has been more violent than the fascists it claims to be fighting against. Based on their attacking of reporters and police, it seems like they came ready for a fight and didn't find one with the supposed neo-nazi's that were to show.
Around 50 "unite the right" attendees showed up, and of those 50 it seems they were there with American themed shirts and flags. On the other hand hundreds of masked Antifa showed up with violent slogans and committed actual violence against the press and authorities.
Does this make it more likely that Donald Trump was right in saying that there are good and bad people on both sides? Or should everyone who showed up yesterday to counter-protest be held responsible for the violent activity and violent speech of Antifa? Should the media speak up more against the actual physical violence that was committed against journalists yesterday?
Disclaimer: I shouldn't have to say this, but I obviously condemn and see the violent, racist and bigoted individuals that showed up to last years rally to be vile identity ideologues who deserve to be outed and face the consequences of their actions. But it certainly doesn't make me see Antifa's vigilante violence as a solution.
...to me, the violence from antifa is UNDERSTANDABLE. I do not condone it, but I UNDERSTAND why they are resorting to what they are resorting to.
We've seen what fascism leads to (and is currently leading us to). And when the political options are getting exhausted/we're all hinged on the midterms (which have not shown any signs of being protected from interference), people are not getting listened to when they protest, and altrighters are just making things worse, violence is to be expected.
And since politicians aren't as accessible for these people, antifa are instead turning to the enablers.
When the shooting happened at that republican baseball game a year or so ago... I was not in the least bit surprised. If I recall correctly republicans had just dealt a huge blow to healthcare the week before, and aside from physically killing the people themselves, I'm not sure how much more responsible you can get for killing the sick people off in this country. So violence was an UNDERSTANDABLE reaction.
I guess that sums it up: I am not surprised. The police aren't doing anything. (Most of) the politicians aren't doing anything. And openly-fascist people are just making things worse. And when the world is dying, families are getting separated, and there's just so much shit going on and less to live for, I think this is the result: violence against bigotry and fascism versus, versus the right being violent for... what? Homophobia? Xenophobia?
Edit: Also, the controversy behind Trump saying "bad people on both sides" wasn't whether he was right or wrong, it was that he never denounced the right/nazis/fascists, he implied maybe the crowd at the had enabled the violence (they hadn't).
I'm always fascinated by this sort of thing. People love to pretend we're better than the 'animals', somehow above violence, murder, and nature. We're simply the worst animal. Our cleverness allows us to do violence on a scale unprecedented in nature, without even being there in person, and lie to ourselves about it every day, making it as if it never happened.
The social contract is the only reason this is held in check. It's always been a tenuous counter of our own tribal tendencies. Now, forces are upsetting the social contract. When that contract goes away (whatever form it takes) the violence always returns, until it burns itself out and a new social contract takes over. That's not guaranteed to happen, either. The violence is perfectly capable of becoming the new (old) normal, as it is in many parts of the world.
Don't fuck with the social contract, that's rule number one for civilization.
Today, we've got multiple forces pulling at that contract. Most people who truly know what war is and what war means are dead (and that's progress, in a way). We've gone past the point where words mean anything, anymore. We're just about at the point where we're 'done talking.' When that happens, it's all downhill. Everyone's blaming their neighbors for the problems that poor governance has created, as is tradition throughout history. That anger is immune to reason. It demands an angry response from the other party, that's part of our own nature... most people never learn to rise above those impulses.
Vote in November, and hope for some sanity to be restored. If that fails, there will be blood. That's a fucking promise. I'm expecting blood no matter the outcome, but one of these outcomes is far worse than the other.
Edit: We've been here before.
There's no excuse for attacking journalists but the police have been repeatedly shown to inflict unnecessary force toward mainly left-wing protesters regardless of how peaceful they are and it seems as though the violence from police have been getting worse ever since the Dakota Access pipeline protests. I don't see the police as being innocent bystanders at all.
I'm going to lock this topic for now. I may unlock it again tomorrow, but I don't want to leave it unattended overnight with the direction the discussion's been tending towards.