And here's the rhetorical tricks fascists love -- create an invisible enemy that is simultaneously dangerously powerful and must be stopped as well as weak and easily crushed (ie the "soy boy"...
And here's the rhetorical tricks fascists love -- create an invisible enemy that is simultaneously dangerously powerful and must be stopped as well as weak and easily crushed (ie the "soy boy" terminology). Not to mention the masking of the antifascist element by constantly shortening it to antifa.
Labelling antifascists as terrorists is unspeakably dangerous rhetoric and should be opposed by all who claim to oppose fascism.
There's nothing legally binding in this as the presidency can't declare a domestic mass of people as terrorists, but it doesn't really matter to Law Enforcement and shit flingers I'd imagine.
There's nothing legally binding in this as the presidency can't declare a domestic mass of people as terrorists, but it doesn't really matter to Law Enforcement and shit flingers I'd imagine.
Also I mean the term "Antifa" was common here about 20 years ago - but as I recall that was mostly people who where often left wing, usually liberterian socialist, who where outspoken...
Also I mean the term "Antifa" was common here about 20 years ago - but as I recall that was mostly people who where often left wing, usually liberterian socialist, who where outspoken extraparliamentarian antifascists often sticking to small groups acting independently.
Its not much of an organisation... so I don't get how he intend to do it?
He doesn't intend to anything. He's reacting to people getting more attention than he does. But "radical islamic terrorists" weren't much of an organization either, and we put a whole lot of money...
Its not much of an organisation... so I don't get how he intend to do it?
He doesn't intend to anything. He's reacting to people getting more attention than he does. But "radical islamic terrorists" weren't much of an organization either, and we put a whole lot of money into fighting that.
Doesn't there have to be an organisation for something to be a "domestic terrorist organisation"? There needs to be organised groups, meetings, and leaders. Where are these things for this...
Doesn't there have to be an organisation for something to be a "domestic terrorist organisation"? There needs to be organised groups, meetings, and leaders. Where are these things for this nebulous "antifa"?
An uprising of the people against fascism is not an organisation. It's a movement.
I can see from the existing answers and voting that this might be against the prevailing view, but Tildes might be one of the few places I can have this discussion without having people scream...
I can see from the existing answers and voting that this might be against the prevailing view, but Tildes might be one of the few places I can have this discussion without having people scream directly at me, so here goes (I present this earnestly and in the spirit of wanting to understand, and apologise in advance if any of what I say or ask is coached in the wrong language):
From what I've seen of ANTIFA on the news (prior to this week) they come across as a loose band of agitators who cause trouble on behalf of any pro-left (more incendiary, perhaps: "any woke") or anti-right issue that's currently in the public eye.
More troublingly, this is coupled with the overuse and broadened meaning of terms like "fascist", "nazi", "right wing", etc, which is leading to ANTIFA being a group that are physically fighting anyone that disagrees with them on anything.
This seems to be summarised in the, seemingly popular, "punch a nazi" meme.
In my mind that's not constructive or productive, or conducive to getting your own way. In the simplest example I can think of: being an actual Nazi isn't a crime, but you surely want law enforcement to watching the Nazis rather than watching you, and so turning out with the express intention of punching a Nazi means that you're aligning law enforcement against you, and worse forcing them to protect Nazis.
For context I'm white and British and so I can't claim to have experience or insight of some of the people more directly impacted, and I obviously need to consider this in my worldview.
For the record, whilst I don't support ANTIFA (based on the above), I am 100% opposed to fascism in any form - it's a cancer that I'd hope we, as nations, had eradicated in 1945.
Antifa isn't nearly as much of a threat as the media and Republicans make it out to be. Notice how the worst thing people say they've done is that dude hitting people with a bike lock. Anyone...
Antifa isn't nearly as much of a threat as the media and Republicans make it out to be. Notice how the worst thing people say they've done is that dude hitting people with a bike lock. Anyone "with antifa" has literally never killed anyone. They get attention because the media and Republicans want to say "see, the left is just as bad!" because that's what Republicans do.
My grandpa who fought in WW2 used to joke about punching Hitler, so why can't I joke about punching Nazis? The police treat them kinder than they deserve.
Antifa, much like "muslim extremists" is specifically meant to be both nebulous (hard to define) and a threat. Trump could have just as easily labeled "the boogeymen" as a terrorist threat - the...
Antifa, much like "muslim extremists" is specifically meant to be both nebulous (hard to define) and a threat. Trump could have just as easily labeled "the boogeymen" as a terrorist threat - the goal is not to define specific people, but rather to rile up the base and give them something to target their fear at.
I don't really have a better answer to give than the other commentors, but I wanted to applaud your willingness to come forward and ask. I don't post here often, but from what I've read this does...
I don't really have a better answer to give than the other commentors, but I wanted to applaud your willingness to come forward and ask. I don't post here often, but from what I've read this does seem to be a place where people are more willing to entertain "devil's advocate" type arguments for the purpose of fleshing out a discussion.
Sure, political discourse gets to the heart of who we are as people and it's easy to get defensive about that, but I think that here (and everywhere else, obviously, but in such a polarized political climate it can be risky sometimes, as you pointed out) is as good a place as any to start the discussion in the hope of learning.
My two cents on the topic is I woke up today to learn I'm a terrorist. I'm not welcome in the country I was born and raised in. Because of a set of ideas I have. That thought utterly terrified me, and I've basically been non-productive all day because I can't stop trembling whenever my mind wanders to it. I don't know of "ANTIFA" [sic] as an organization, but "antifa" as an abbreviation simply means "anti-fascism," and just like any ideal, there will be extremists. I don't support any violent extremism, but the sincere thought of having to leave my homeland has entered my mind for the first time in my life, and it's not a comfortable thought.
Unfortunately there is a lot of mislabeling and misinformation in the media surrounding Antifa. This is a really good (albeit long) video on what Antifa is, by PhilosophyTube. The video also talks...
From what I've seen of ANTIFA on the news (prior to this week)
Unfortunately there is a lot of mislabeling and misinformation in the media surrounding Antifa.
This is a really good (albeit long) video on what Antifa is, by PhilosophyTube.
The video also talks about "punch a nazi" meme.
Edit: I am sorry, the video in which he does talk about "punch a nazi" meme is this (shorter) video.
From my experience with people who'd align "antifa", the idea is basically that fascism is so dangerous you have to drop your hippie attitudes (and most "antifa" people are hippie-ish in day to...
From my experience with people who'd align "antifa", the idea is basically that fascism is so dangerous you have to drop your hippie attitudes (and most "antifa" people are hippie-ish in day to day life) and actually fight it. With sticks.
As for the long-term strategy, I don't know and I think the point is rather not to get distracted by wait-and-see approaches. Politically, it's maybe not the most sophisticated strategy but I can see how what's "fought" is mostly the normalization of right-wing policies. They rather want them to be associated with fighting in the streets than with the happy slogans of a law and order campaign because – and that might be the core of it all – they believe that once people are forced to take sides in a physical fight, they rather side with them than the actual fascists who would oppose them. That is currently a dangerous theory to test.
In the US, there must be a bit more of an ideological distance to this but in Europe, "facism" certainly brings back memories of WW2 and the holocaust. You probably know stories from your grandparents and schools spend a significant part of history lessons on it. So it's rather hard to not side with "anti-fascists". You might see some images of black-wearing protesters breaking a windshield and think, "how rude", but then you remember the context and it's like... some politician protecting a policeman who shot an unarmed immigrant kid in the back and you're like... "hmm, that might be worth a windshield".
Since I asked this things have gotten so much worse on the ground that what I'm asking -- in this context, at this time -- amounts to a distinction without a difference and so I'm parking my...
Since I asked this things have gotten so much worse on the ground that what I'm asking -- in this context, at this time -- amounts to a distinction without a difference and so I'm parking my fence-sitting.
I still believe there's something material to discuss here, but this is not the time.
Right now, there is a fascist-fancying moron directing trigger-happy bullies to assault, suppress, and kill citizens. My issues around terminology are a rounding error.
And here's the rhetorical tricks fascists love -- create an invisible enemy that is simultaneously dangerously powerful and must be stopped as well as weak and easily crushed (ie the "soy boy" terminology). Not to mention the masking of the antifascist element by constantly shortening it to antifa.
Labelling antifascists as terrorists is unspeakably dangerous rhetoric and should be opposed by all who claim to oppose fascism.
Trump finally found something to distract America from COVID and the economy.
I fail to see how this is anything other than a straight-up pro-Nazi move.
You might be a fascist if Anti-fa is your enemy.
There's nothing legally binding in this as the presidency can't declare a domestic mass of people as terrorists, but it doesn't really matter to Law Enforcement and shit flingers I'd imagine.
Also I mean the term "Antifa" was common here about 20 years ago - but as I recall that was mostly people who where often left wing, usually liberterian socialist, who where outspoken extraparliamentarian antifascists often sticking to small groups acting independently.
Its not much of an organisation... so I don't get how he intend to do it?
He doesn't intend to anything. He's reacting to people getting more attention than he does. But "radical islamic terrorists" weren't much of an organization either, and we put a whole lot of money into fighting that.
Fair enough I never got how you guys managed that one too
Doesn't there have to be an organisation for something to be a "domestic terrorist organisation"? There needs to be organised groups, meetings, and leaders. Where are these things for this nebulous "antifa"?
An uprising of the people against fascism is not an organisation. It's a movement.
Yes, but to a fascist, words tend to mean whatever is most politically convenient for them
Alternate source:
Mirror in case of pay wall: https://archive.is/I3GMH
I can see from the existing answers and voting that this might be against the prevailing view, but Tildes might be one of the few places I can have this discussion without having people scream directly at me, so here goes (I present this earnestly and in the spirit of wanting to understand, and apologise in advance if any of what I say or ask is coached in the wrong language):
From what I've seen of ANTIFA on the news (prior to this week) they come across as a loose band of agitators who cause trouble on behalf of any pro-left (more incendiary, perhaps: "any woke") or anti-right issue that's currently in the public eye.
More troublingly, this is coupled with the overuse and broadened meaning of terms like "fascist", "nazi", "right wing", etc, which is leading to ANTIFA being a group that are physically fighting anyone that disagrees with them on anything.
This seems to be summarised in the, seemingly popular, "punch a nazi" meme.
In my mind that's not constructive or productive, or conducive to getting your own way. In the simplest example I can think of: being an actual Nazi isn't a crime, but you surely want law enforcement to watching the Nazis rather than watching you, and so turning out with the express intention of punching a Nazi means that you're aligning law enforcement against you, and worse forcing them to protect Nazis.
For context I'm white and British and so I can't claim to have experience or insight of some of the people more directly impacted, and I obviously need to consider this in my worldview.
For the record, whilst I don't support ANTIFA (based on the above), I am 100% opposed to fascism in any form - it's a cancer that I'd hope we, as nations, had eradicated in 1945.
Antifa isn't nearly as much of a threat as the media and Republicans make it out to be. Notice how the worst thing people say they've done is that dude hitting people with a bike lock. Anyone "with antifa" has literally never killed anyone. They get attention because the media and Republicans want to say "see, the left is just as bad!" because that's what Republicans do.
My grandpa who fought in WW2 used to joke about punching Hitler, so why can't I joke about punching Nazis? The police treat them kinder than they deserve.
Antifa, much like "muslim extremists" is specifically meant to be both nebulous (hard to define) and a threat. Trump could have just as easily labeled "the boogeymen" as a terrorist threat - the goal is not to define specific people, but rather to rile up the base and give them something to target their fear at.
I don't really have a better answer to give than the other commentors, but I wanted to applaud your willingness to come forward and ask. I don't post here often, but from what I've read this does seem to be a place where people are more willing to entertain "devil's advocate" type arguments for the purpose of fleshing out a discussion.
Sure, political discourse gets to the heart of who we are as people and it's easy to get defensive about that, but I think that here (and everywhere else, obviously, but in such a polarized political climate it can be risky sometimes, as you pointed out) is as good a place as any to start the discussion in the hope of learning.
My two cents on the topic is I woke up today to learn I'm a terrorist. I'm not welcome in the country I was born and raised in. Because of a set of ideas I have. That thought utterly terrified me, and I've basically been non-productive all day because I can't stop trembling whenever my mind wanders to it. I don't know of "ANTIFA" [sic] as an organization, but "antifa" as an abbreviation simply means "anti-fascism," and just like any ideal, there will be extremists. I don't support any violent extremism, but the sincere thought of having to leave my homeland has entered my mind for the first time in my life, and it's not a comfortable thought.
Unfortunately there is a lot of mislabeling and misinformation in the media surrounding Antifa.
This is a really good (albeit long) video on what Antifa is, by PhilosophyTube.
The video also talks about "punch a nazi" meme.
Edit: I am sorry, the video in which he does talk about "punch a nazi" meme is this (shorter) video.
From my experience with people who'd align "antifa", the idea is basically that fascism is so dangerous you have to drop your hippie attitudes (and most "antifa" people are hippie-ish in day to day life) and actually fight it. With sticks.
As for the long-term strategy, I don't know and I think the point is rather not to get distracted by wait-and-see approaches. Politically, it's maybe not the most sophisticated strategy but I can see how what's "fought" is mostly the normalization of right-wing policies. They rather want them to be associated with fighting in the streets than with the happy slogans of a law and order campaign because – and that might be the core of it all – they believe that once people are forced to take sides in a physical fight, they rather side with them than the actual fascists who would oppose them. That is currently a dangerous theory to test.
In the US, there must be a bit more of an ideological distance to this but in Europe, "facism" certainly brings back memories of WW2 and the holocaust. You probably know stories from your grandparents and schools spend a significant part of history lessons on it. So it's rather hard to not side with "anti-fascists". You might see some images of black-wearing protesters breaking a windshield and think, "how rude", but then you remember the context and it's like... some politician protecting a policeman who shot an unarmed immigrant kid in the back and you're like... "hmm, that might be worth a windshield".
Since I asked this things have gotten so much worse on the ground that what I'm asking -- in this context, at this time -- amounts to a distinction without a difference and so I'm parking my fence-sitting.
I still believe there's something material to discuss here, but this is not the time.
Right now, there is a fascist-fancying moron directing trigger-happy bullies to assault, suppress, and kill citizens. My issues around terminology are a rounding error.