It's already posted here https://tildes.net/~society/1ssq/us_supreme_court_strikes_down_donald_trumps_sweeping_tariffs_upending_central_plank_of_economic and here...
The Supreme Court on Friday struck down President Donald Trump’s sweeping tariffs — a major repudiation of a core piece of Trump’s economic program.
The 6-3 decision is a rare instance of the conservative-led court reining in Trump’s expansive use of executive power. Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Amy Coney Barrett and Neil Gorsuch joined the court’s three liberals in the majority.
“The President asserts the extraordinary power to unilaterally impose tariffs of unlimited amount, duration, and scope. In light of the breadth, history, and constitutional context of that asserted authority, he must identify clear congressional authorization to exercise it,” Roberts wrote, declaring that the 1977 law Trump cited to justify the import duties “falls short” of the Congressional approval that would be needed.
The ruling wipes out the 10 percent tariff Trump imposed on nearly every country in the world, as well as specific, higher tariffs on some of the top U.S. trading partners, including Canada, Mexico, China, the European Union, Japan and South Korea.
Several of those countries have entered trade agreements with the U.S. — and before the ruling indicated that they would continue to honor those agreements.
That is because the victory for the 12 Democratic-run states and small businesses that challenged Trump’s tariffs is expected to be short lived. The White House has signaled it will attempt to use other authorities to keep similar duties in place.
[...]
It undercuts his ability to impose tariffs on a whim to address geopolitical conflict — like a threat to impose tariffs on countries that do business with Iran — and to threaten tariffs as he tries to gain a better negotiating position — like his tariff threats in an attempt to acquire Greenland. Businesses had decried those “national security” tariff threats for fueling economic uncertainty, but the administration said they were necessary for achieving its policy goals.
[...]
The federal government could now be forced to issue billions of dollars in refunds to companies that paid the tariffs the high court ruled illegal. Many companies have already sued to protect their refund claims in the event the court struck down the Trump tariffs.
Two things I want to know about: Will businesses be refunded? How about those that have since gone under, like smaller businesses? Will they get that money back? Not even going to ask if consumers...
Two things I want to know about:
Will businesses be refunded? How about those that have since gone under, like smaller businesses? Will they get that money back? Not even going to ask if consumers will be refunded; this is America after all.
What happens to reciprocal tariffs applied to the US from other countries? I understand that tariffs against the US are paid by those countries' respective citizens/businesses. But given the US stance towards trade partners, couldn't those countries just leave the tariffs up as a deterrent to trade with the US (which affects US biz), until they get something they want from the US? Gonna need a lotta popcorn for this one. Luckily we grow lots of corn in the US!
Ya. Other countries can do whatever they want; this ruling doesn't affect them at all. Regardless of what the USA does, the damage is done already: Canada is making trade aliances with other...
But given the US stance towards trade partners, couldn't those countries just leave the tariffs up as a deterrent to trade with the US (which affects US biz), until they get something they want from the US?
Ya. Other countries can do whatever they want; this ruling doesn't affect them at all.
Regardless of what the USA does, the damage is done already: Canada is making trade aliances with other countries (including China). China is buying soy from anywhere but the USA and that's not going to change. NATO members are creating new defence pacts that don't involve the USA. Many countries now have concerns over US defence products. Several European governments are trying to switch away from Microsoft products due to concerns over digital sovereignty. Europe is also working on a new payment system to completely cut out american payment processors (Visa, MasterCard, Paypal). This is just part of what's going on I guess.
What I would like to see is for people to start cutting out American media consumption as well as stop using US tech products/services. Media is a huge industry for the US and helps keep them culturally relevant while the tech industry is also large and is throwing in with Trump at the moment.
Trump has managed to utterly destroy 80 years of soft power projection in less than one year, and this tariff thing was just one tiny piece of it. I don't think Trump understands the concept of...
Regardless of what the USA does, the damage is done already
Trump has managed to utterly destroy 80 years of soft power projection in less than one year, and this tariff thing was just one tiny piece of it.
I don't think Trump understands the concept of soft power. I believe that's the underlying basis of his "the whole world is taking advantage of the US" rant. Giving money and resources to other people, other countries, with no (blatant, obvious, immediate) strings attached ... the whole idea offends him; it's just not how his brain works. It's why he quit "giving" weapons to Ukraine, but he's very happy to let the EU buy weapons from the US, to give to Ukraine. In his mind, that's the EU being stupid, and the US is taking advantage of it.
It's true that he's apparently transactional. He doesn't demonstrate understanding of charity, honor, empathy, trust, or mutual benefits. He doesn't demonstrate understanding of long term goals or...
Exemplary
It's true that he's apparently transactional. He doesn't demonstrate understanding of charity, honor, empathy, trust, or mutual benefits. He doesn't demonstrate understanding of long term goals or benefits.
But we really don't know what he understands because he's primarily a bullshitter with no fixed belief system. A bullshitter is a kind of liar who lies constantly without even needing a strategic reason. He frequently says opposite things on different days. Whenever I hear someone say "I like his policies" I know they are idiots because he has no discernible policy except enriching himself at the expense of others.
It's ineffective for the press or anyone else to ask him questions about anything because he'll just bullshit an answer that he thinks helps him in the short term.
He's simply the worst possible type of leader (and worst type of person) and it's endlessly shocking to me that there are millions of people who don't have a functioning bullshit detector and voted for this.
Yeah as much as I hate it -- as an American -- the world needs to fuck us. And not in the fun, consensual way. At this point, I am an adherent to the "touching the stove" theory of...everything....
Yeah as much as I hate it -- as an American -- the world needs to fuck us. And not in the fun, consensual way. At this point, I am an adherent to the "touching the stove" theory of...everything. There are some of us who don't need to touch the stove to understand it's hot (ignore the fact that as like a 7yo child, I once reached into an oven to touch the glowing orange heating element). But apparently like 30-40% of my compatriots need to do so -- potentially repeatedly -- so they may learn the lesson. I am not very confident they will learn, but I don't know what else will work at this point.
While I agree with your underlying frustration, I believe the bitter truth is that there is truly no way for the 30-40% to learn any lesson whatsoever. No matter how extreme or obvious the lesson,...
But apparently like 30-40% of my compatriots need to do so -- potentially repeatedly -- so they may learn the lesson.
While I agree with your underlying frustration, I believe the bitter truth is that there is truly no way for the 30-40% to learn any lesson whatsoever. No matter how extreme or obvious the lesson, no matter how much one's personal wellbeing or one's family is affected, said 30-40% would sooner burn themselves and the rest of us to death than learn anything, ever. They will always, always, always, always double down.
I think a large part of the problem is that whatever suffering most of these folks will undergo because of Trump and the Republican party will be disconnected enough in time or have enough...
I think a large part of the problem is that whatever suffering most of these folks will undergo because of Trump and the Republican party will be disconnected enough in time or have enough complexity in cause that conservative media will be able to shift any blame for that pain to common scapegoats: immigration, "liberal" policies (Trump is still blaming his own economic woes on the Biden admin), "decline" of "western culture". His adherents are immersed in a web of alternative "information", so even when they touch the stove and get burnt they are told that it is someone else's fault, not their own. I've lived around that conservative bubble enough to have an idea that every single area of their lives is supporting and reinforcing the alternate reality that they live in.
These are the same people who won't vaccinate their kids against measles and polio. If they don't see it for themselves, surely it can't be that bad. Same thing happens with things like women's...
These are the same people who won't vaccinate their kids against measles and polio. If they don't see it for themselves, surely it can't be that bad.
Same thing happens with things like women's safety and racism. "He's always been nice to me .."
I don't exactly disagree, but I also try not to put to much stock in those feelings, because asserting that 30-40% of people - 100-150 million Americans, or 77 million voting Americans, or that...
I don't exactly disagree, but I also try not to put to much stock in those feelings, because asserting that 30-40% of people - 100-150 million Americans, or 77 million voting Americans, or that fraction of whichever demographic - are incapable of rational thought is a kind of dehumanization that I'm not really comfortable with.
But at the same time I can't help but feel there's some truth to it, and I don't like that feeling.
You know, I’ve always thought that “X makes me lose faith in humanity” talk is hyperbolic, and in most cases it’s used that way as a rhetorical device. But this past decade has done exactly that...
You know, I’ve always thought that “X makes me lose faith in humanity” talk is hyperbolic, and in most cases it’s used that way as a rhetorical device. But this past decade has done exactly that for me. A lot of humankind’s better qualities that I’ve taken for granted feel hollow now, like they were just aphorisms, traditions, and social norms that were never actually load-bearing. I’m stunned to see how many people are apparently living with no discernible ethical framework or internally consistent worldview, and how easily huge portions of the population will swallow whatever is told to them, with zero concern for its credibility, as long as it’s coded in alignment with their tribe.
We’re deep enough in this by now that I guess I’m not still surprised by it. More in the coping phase I guess. I know humanity is CAPABLE of incredible beauty, invention, adaptation, justice, aspiration, cooperation, and so on. Those things haven’t gone away, it just turns out they’re in more limited supply than I once thought.
So where do we go from here? I’m trying to be optimistic — to some degree I think we should appreciate the mask-off moment. I’d rather be clear-eyed about the world I inhabit than living under delusions about it. It’s also motivating me more to speak up and get involved, because I no longer have confidence others are going to do it for me. “Be the change you wish to see in the world” feels more like a personal mission now than a vaguely inspirational quote.
Anyway, about the dehumanization point. I think my take on that is kind of flipped now. This has reset my baseline understanding of what it means (in actuality) to be human. This isn’t saying that huge amounts of people are subhuman, it’s an admission that this is what humanity actually is, and a reminder that we’re not as sophisticated as we long pretended to be. Maybe that change in perspective can actually help us empathize with others better, to meet them where they are rather than where we want them to be.
How to actually do that though? I’m not sure, I’m still thinking through all this. I will say I’ve been redoubling my focus on local connection. Meeting my neighbors. Breaking bread with people. Watching their kids while they’re at work and can’t afford childcare. Meal trains. Mutual aid, that sort of thing. It’s not macro-level anything but it’s a necessary retreat from just posting online all the time (which I still do too, lol) and it feels great and provides immediate, visible improvements to the corner of the world where I live.
I was thinking about your "losing faith in humanity" point and ran across this essay today. Your focus on local community is, I believe, a tactical method for undoing the "unseeing" that all of...
I was thinking about your "losing faith in humanity" point and ran across this essay today.
Your focus on local community is, I believe, a tactical method for undoing the "unseeing" that all of our ideological silos encourage. I've met and engaged with people whose beliefs I consider abhorrent - those who see people like me, my loved ones, friends, and people who share our liberal ideologies and identities as malign threats who should be excluded, silenced, maltreated, expelled, exterminated. I don't know if their minds can ever be changed. But I will not cease in trying to see them as having humanity equivalent to mine, and making myself visible to them, sharing and supporting our common needs. It's the nature of reality that we coexist in the same world, regardless of how we attempt to blind ourselves to each other.
Many of our deep drives are keyed towards staying in good graces with our in-group, because our far ancestors survived and reproduced more successfully by being in good group standing, even if the...
This has reset my baseline understanding of what it means (in actuality) to be human. This isn’t saying that huge amounts of people are subhuman, it’s an admission that this is what humanity actually is, and a reminder that we’re not as sophisticated as we long pretended to be.
Many of our deep drives are keyed towards staying in good graces with our in-group, because our far ancestors survived and reproduced more successfully by being in good group standing, even if the group had objectively wrong positions, than by pursuing objective truth as individuals. Evolution selected against being able to apply our intelligence to things related to in-group identity.
I see so much talk of people holding illogical positions as being stupid, or due to a lack of education, and to me neither of those things seem to align with the divisions in our country. I believe if we don't address the real challenge of these in-group brain circuits that bypass our intelligence (or harness that intelligence for post-rationalization) and are immune to standard education, we aren't going to make any headway.
I worked in the higher-ed realm for nearly two decades. Some of these people with PhDs and other advanced degrees were baffling to me. I was like, "How do you have a PhD?? How do you survive?!"
I worked in the higher-ed realm for nearly two decades. Some of these people with PhDs and other advanced degrees were baffling to me. I was like, "How do you have a PhD?? How do you survive?!"
I don't think it was ever a good thing to have so much concentrated in one place - any one place. Congress wanted to make an Internet "kill switch" a while back. My understanding is that the only...
I don't think it was ever a good thing to have so much concentrated in one place - any one place.
Congress wanted to make an Internet "kill switch" a while back. My understanding is that the only reason it didn't happen was incompetence. NOBODY should have the ability to shut off the Internet for the world, let alone the US. When it happens in a single state by accident, 911 goes down and people die. It would be so much worse on a bigger scale.
Add to that the ability to cut off food and medicine to places that don't have enough, none of that is okay. I live in the US and don't like it, it isn't right.
Maybe the US will become deserving of trust again someday, maybe it won't. It doesn't matter, it only takes a day to destroy trust built up over a long time.
In theory everyone that paid a tariff would be refunded yes. If that's rolled into and hidden as the regular price you're probably out of luck as the consumer so the seller can double dip on this....
In theory everyone that paid a tariff would be refunded yes. If that's rolled into and hidden as the regular price you're probably out of luck as the consumer so the seller can double dip on this.
As an aside, pretty sure Lutnick was buying up tariff debt as a way to gamble that it would be overturned by the Supreme Court. Great way to profit from the people you're supposed to serve.
I saw that about Lutnick. These people are the fucking scummiest. Drain the swamp...They -- "we," as voters -- made it bigger and deeper. So tired of this country...
I saw that about Lutnick. These people are the fucking scummiest. Drain the swamp...They -- "we," as voters -- made it bigger and deeper. So tired of this country...
The dissent pushes back with an intuitively appealing argument: IEEPA authorizes the President to prohibit imports entirely, so surely it authorizes the lesser action of merely taxing them. If Congress handed over the nuclear option, why would it withhold the conventional weapon?
[...]
Not surprisingly, the same structure appears in real emergency services. A fire chief may have the authority to close roads during an emergency but that doesn’t imply that the fire chief has the authority to impose road tolls. Road closure is costly and self-limiting — it disrupts traffic, generates immediate complaints, and the chief has every incentive to lift it as soon as possible. Tolls are cheap, adjustable, and once in place tend to persist; they generate revenue that can fund the agency and create constituencies for their continuation. Nobody thinks granting a fire chief emergency closure authority implicitly grants them taxing authority, even if the latter is a lesser authority. The closure and toll instruments have completely different political economy properties despite operating on the same roads.
It's already posted here https://tildes.net/~society/1ssq/us_supreme_court_strikes_down_donald_trumps_sweeping_tariffs_upending_central_plank_of_economic and here https://tildes.net/~society/1sq9/weekly_us_politics_news_and_updates_thread_week_of_february_16#comment-hd7u
From the article:
[...]
[...]
Two things I want to know about:
Will businesses be refunded? How about those that have since gone under, like smaller businesses? Will they get that money back? Not even going to ask if consumers will be refunded; this is America after all.
What happens to reciprocal tariffs applied to the US from other countries? I understand that tariffs against the US are paid by those countries' respective citizens/businesses. But given the US stance towards trade partners, couldn't those countries just leave the tariffs up as a deterrent to trade with the US (which affects US biz), until they get something they want from the US? Gonna need a lotta popcorn for this one. Luckily we grow lots of corn in the US!
Ya. Other countries can do whatever they want; this ruling doesn't affect them at all.
Regardless of what the USA does, the damage is done already: Canada is making trade aliances with other countries (including China). China is buying soy from anywhere but the USA and that's not going to change. NATO members are creating new defence pacts that don't involve the USA. Many countries now have concerns over US defence products. Several European governments are trying to switch away from Microsoft products due to concerns over digital sovereignty. Europe is also working on a new payment system to completely cut out american payment processors (Visa, MasterCard, Paypal). This is just part of what's going on I guess.
What I would like to see is for people to start cutting out American media consumption as well as stop using US tech products/services. Media is a huge industry for the US and helps keep them culturally relevant while the tech industry is also large and is throwing in with Trump at the moment.
Trump has managed to utterly destroy 80 years of soft power projection in less than one year, and this tariff thing was just one tiny piece of it.
I don't think Trump understands the concept of soft power. I believe that's the underlying basis of his "the whole world is taking advantage of the US" rant. Giving money and resources to other people, other countries, with no (blatant, obvious, immediate) strings attached ... the whole idea offends him; it's just not how his brain works. It's why he quit "giving" weapons to Ukraine, but he's very happy to let the EU buy weapons from the US, to give to Ukraine. In his mind, that's the EU being stupid, and the US is taking advantage of it.
It's true that he's apparently transactional. He doesn't demonstrate understanding of charity, honor, empathy, trust, or mutual benefits. He doesn't demonstrate understanding of long term goals or benefits.
But we really don't know what he understands because he's primarily a bullshitter with no fixed belief system. A bullshitter is a kind of liar who lies constantly without even needing a strategic reason. He frequently says opposite things on different days. Whenever I hear someone say "I like his policies" I know they are idiots because he has no discernible policy except enriching himself at the expense of others.
It's ineffective for the press or anyone else to ask him questions about anything because he'll just bullshit an answer that he thinks helps him in the short term.
He's simply the worst possible type of leader (and worst type of person) and it's endlessly shocking to me that there are millions of people who don't have a functioning bullshit detector and voted for this.
Yeah as much as I hate it -- as an American -- the world needs to fuck us. And not in the fun, consensual way. At this point, I am an adherent to the "touching the stove" theory of...everything. There are some of us who don't need to touch the stove to understand it's hot (ignore the fact that as like a 7yo child, I once reached into an oven to touch the glowing orange heating element). But apparently like 30-40% of my compatriots need to do so -- potentially repeatedly -- so they may learn the lesson. I am not very confident they will learn, but I don't know what else will work at this point.
It wpuld be funny how one man can dismantle tens of years of building trust and relations in just one year... if the damage wasn't real.
While I agree with your underlying frustration, I believe the bitter truth is that there is truly no way for the 30-40% to learn any lesson whatsoever. No matter how extreme or obvious the lesson, no matter how much one's personal wellbeing or one's family is affected, said 30-40% would sooner burn themselves and the rest of us to death than learn anything, ever. They will always, always, always, always double down.
I think a large part of the problem is that whatever suffering most of these folks will undergo because of Trump and the Republican party will be disconnected enough in time or have enough complexity in cause that conservative media will be able to shift any blame for that pain to common scapegoats: immigration, "liberal" policies (Trump is still blaming his own economic woes on the Biden admin), "decline" of "western culture". His adherents are immersed in a web of alternative "information", so even when they touch the stove and get burnt they are told that it is someone else's fault, not their own. I've lived around that conservative bubble enough to have an idea that every single area of their lives is supporting and reinforcing the alternate reality that they live in.
These are the same people who won't vaccinate their kids against measles and polio. If they don't see it for themselves, surely it can't be that bad.
Same thing happens with things like women's safety and racism. "He's always been nice to me .."
I don't exactly disagree, but I also try not to put to much stock in those feelings, because asserting that 30-40% of people - 100-150 million Americans, or 77 million voting Americans, or that fraction of whichever demographic - are incapable of rational thought is a kind of dehumanization that I'm not really comfortable with.
But at the same time I can't help but feel there's some truth to it, and I don't like that feeling.
You know, I’ve always thought that “X makes me lose faith in humanity” talk is hyperbolic, and in most cases it’s used that way as a rhetorical device. But this past decade has done exactly that for me. A lot of humankind’s better qualities that I’ve taken for granted feel hollow now, like they were just aphorisms, traditions, and social norms that were never actually load-bearing. I’m stunned to see how many people are apparently living with no discernible ethical framework or internally consistent worldview, and how easily huge portions of the population will swallow whatever is told to them, with zero concern for its credibility, as long as it’s coded in alignment with their tribe.
We’re deep enough in this by now that I guess I’m not still surprised by it. More in the coping phase I guess. I know humanity is CAPABLE of incredible beauty, invention, adaptation, justice, aspiration, cooperation, and so on. Those things haven’t gone away, it just turns out they’re in more limited supply than I once thought.
So where do we go from here? I’m trying to be optimistic — to some degree I think we should appreciate the mask-off moment. I’d rather be clear-eyed about the world I inhabit than living under delusions about it. It’s also motivating me more to speak up and get involved, because I no longer have confidence others are going to do it for me. “Be the change you wish to see in the world” feels more like a personal mission now than a vaguely inspirational quote.
Anyway, about the dehumanization point. I think my take on that is kind of flipped now. This has reset my baseline understanding of what it means (in actuality) to be human. This isn’t saying that huge amounts of people are subhuman, it’s an admission that this is what humanity actually is, and a reminder that we’re not as sophisticated as we long pretended to be. Maybe that change in perspective can actually help us empathize with others better, to meet them where they are rather than where we want them to be.
How to actually do that though? I’m not sure, I’m still thinking through all this. I will say I’ve been redoubling my focus on local connection. Meeting my neighbors. Breaking bread with people. Watching their kids while they’re at work and can’t afford childcare. Meal trains. Mutual aid, that sort of thing. It’s not macro-level anything but it’s a necessary retreat from just posting online all the time (which I still do too, lol) and it feels great and provides immediate, visible improvements to the corner of the world where I live.
I was thinking about your "losing faith in humanity" point and ran across this essay today.
Your focus on local community is, I believe, a tactical method for undoing the "unseeing" that all of our ideological silos encourage. I've met and engaged with people whose beliefs I consider abhorrent - those who see people like me, my loved ones, friends, and people who share our liberal ideologies and identities as malign threats who should be excluded, silenced, maltreated, expelled, exterminated. I don't know if their minds can ever be changed. But I will not cease in trying to see them as having humanity equivalent to mine, and making myself visible to them, sharing and supporting our common needs. It's the nature of reality that we coexist in the same world, regardless of how we attempt to blind ourselves to each other.
Many of our deep drives are keyed towards staying in good graces with our in-group, because our far ancestors survived and reproduced more successfully by being in good group standing, even if the group had objectively wrong positions, than by pursuing objective truth as individuals. Evolution selected against being able to apply our intelligence to things related to in-group identity.
I see so much talk of people holding illogical positions as being stupid, or due to a lack of education, and to me neither of those things seem to align with the divisions in our country. I believe if we don't address the real challenge of these in-group brain circuits that bypass our intelligence (or harness that intelligence for post-rationalization) and are immune to standard education, we aren't going to make any headway.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
― George Carlin
I worked in retail for well over a decade. Unfortunately I’ve always known a lot of people are fucking dumb as rocks.
I worked in the higher-ed realm for nearly two decades. Some of these people with PhDs and other advanced degrees were baffling to me. I was like, "How do you have a PhD?? How do you survive?!"
I had a customer that insisted they were allergic to dairy, so they were also allergic to eggs because eggs are dairy.
I'm not confident of that either and instead I think this is the beginning of the end of an empire.
I don't think it was ever a good thing to have so much concentrated in one place - any one place.
Congress wanted to make an Internet "kill switch" a while back. My understanding is that the only reason it didn't happen was incompetence. NOBODY should have the ability to shut off the Internet for the world, let alone the US. When it happens in a single state by accident, 911 goes down and people die. It would be so much worse on a bigger scale.
Add to that the ability to cut off food and medicine to places that don't have enough, none of that is okay. I live in the US and don't like it, it isn't right.
Maybe the US will become deserving of trust again someday, maybe it won't. It doesn't matter, it only takes a day to destroy trust built up over a long time.
In theory everyone that paid a tariff would be refunded yes. If that's rolled into and hidden as the regular price you're probably out of luck as the consumer so the seller can double dip on this.
As an aside, pretty sure Lutnick was buying up tariff debt as a way to gamble that it would be overturned by the Supreme Court. Great way to profit from the people you're supposed to serve.
I saw that about Lutnick. These people are the fucking scummiest. Drain the swamp...They -- "we," as voters -- made it bigger and deeper. So tired of this country...
Good lord
https://www.newsweek.com/howard-lutnick-sons-may-make-money-supreme-court-ruling-tariffs-11558345
Why the “Lesser Included Action” Argument for IEEPA Tariffs Fails
[...]