The same thing that happens to most other organic matter that is sealed in a container and put in the fridge. Ocean temperature should be around +3/+4 celcius, so that's the temperature that's...
The same thing that happens to most other organic matter that is sealed in a container and put in the fridge.
Ocean temperature should be around +3/+4 celcius, so that's the temperature that's going to exist inside the vessel.
You could probably model this if you wanted to by going out in to the forest and finding a dead mouse or bird an putting it into a mason jar and in the fridge. Functionally the same thing. You could add in some pieces of polyester, cotton and wool fabric to mimic the clothing the passangers would wear. Maybe some plastics or something too as there's bound to be some inside.
Your mason jar might eventually explode from pressure buildup, but that shouldn't happen with the submarine as the outside pressure will help keep it from exploding.
After a long enought time I recon the inside would just be a soup.
That could take a very long time, I think. The reason airframes for example have a limited service life is the pressure cycles. Compressing and releasing the hull causes it to get fragile as time...
That could take a very long time, I think. The reason airframes for example have a limited service life is the pressure cycles. Compressing and releasing the hull causes it to get fragile as time goes on. But that won't happen to this sub anymore.
Both titanium and carbon fiber composites aren't easy to corrode, so that won't do it either. Possible exception if any of the hull penetrations (where pipes or wires need to lead from inside to outside) are not so corrosion resistant.
So while I can see that the hull might've failed when they first reached depth earlier this week, after that I don't think a hull failure is at all likely in the short term.
Some of the things they did are absolutely mind-boggling, at least to me. Like the nigh-uninspectable hull made of a fickle material. Or the bolted-shut-from-the-outside hatch. Or the weird way in...
Some of the things they did are absolutely mind-boggling, at least to me. Like the nigh-uninspectable hull made of a fickle material. Or the bolted-shut-from-the-outside hatch. Or the weird way in which ballast is released in an emergency.
And then there's things that seem mind-boggling to many, but are actually fairly normal in the submarining world, but still seem scary. The fact that it's very cramped? Not unusual. The fact that communication with topside is difficult? Not unusual. In fact, VLF radio can only penetrate a few 10s of meters of seawater, while ELF can reach down farther, but the transmitters are the size of a football field. So you're basically left with acoustic transmissions, or umbilical cables. I'd assume acoustic transmission at 4km range to be rather bandwidth limited, and umbilical cables, while the preferred solution, come with obvious logistical challenges. So the fact that you can only communicate with topside via text isn't all too crazy.
The hatch sort of makes sense because you want to limit penetrations into the actual vessel. It also wouldn't make much difference if they could open it if they were underwater or being tossed...
The hatch sort of makes sense because you want to limit penetrations into the actual vessel. It also wouldn't make much difference if they could open it if they were underwater or being tossed around in the open sea. Opening it in either situation would lead to less than desirable results.
As far as the ballast - I just saw a report this morning that the lines securing the ballast should have actually corroded after 24 hours and released the ballast. Now, with all of the other sketchy stuff going on with the sub, perhaps the failsafe didn't actually function properly. But at least the intent was there.
Everything else, I agree is completely mind-boggling. The biggest of which is the lack of an emergency beacon if they did manage to surface, followed closely by the use of a viewport window that wasn't rated for the depths they'd be reaching. At this point, I'm under the assumption that there was a catastrophic failure and the sub imploded. At least that's a better alternative than slowly suffocating with your scared child and three other strangers.
There are ways to bolt them in that could still do allow them to get themselves out if they needed to without outside help. My husband points out that in the apollo vehicles (not 1 cause it had...
There are ways to bolt them in that could still do allow them to get themselves out if they needed to without outside help. My husband points out that in the apollo vehicles (not 1 cause it had the same problem, the astronauts couldn't get out without outside help) they have explosive bolts. Don't know how that works but apparently it allows for people on the inside a way to get out without being unbolted from the outside.
I'm no biologist, but I seem to remember that the air you exhale still contains a good bit of oxygen, and it's the build-up of CO2 that's going to kill you before the oxygen truly runs out. I...
As far as I've understood, there would be virtually no oxygen
I'm no biologist, but I seem to remember that the air you exhale still contains a good bit of oxygen, and it's the build-up of CO2 that's going to kill you before the oxygen truly runs out. I think. If I remember that correctly, there would still be a decent bit oxygen in the air.
Man just thinking about this situation is pretty horrific.
That's generally correct, but could depend on the life support system of the sub I guess. At 96h of air in there, I don't think it's possible to rely on ambient air but needs some sort of carbon...
That's generally correct, but could depend on the life support system of the sub I guess. At 96h of air in there, I don't think it's possible to rely on ambient air but needs some sort of carbon dioxide scrubber. If that scrubber outlasts the O2 bottles, you'll end up with basically pure N2. This is the pleasant way to die; you just get sleepy and pass out. If the O2 bottles outlast the scrubber, you're going to end up with a N2 O2 CO2 mix, in that order of concentration. 20% O2 would presumably be what the life support system targets, and about 8% CO2 is what kills. Excess CO2 is extremely unpleasant. Try holding your breath until your lungs burn, now imagine that breathing doesn't fix it.
The other day I read that the Titan does have a CO2 scrubber system in place, but I don’t know a lot about how long it was intended to last. Probably not much (if at all) longer than the rest of...
The other day I read that the Titan does have a CO2 scrubber system in place, but I don’t know a lot about how long it was intended to last. Probably not much (if at all) longer than the rest of the life support systems, though.
It also depends on what mechanics failed. With 96 hours of air capacity and temperatures at roughly freezing there is a good chance they die of hypothermia before the air runs out.
It also depends on what mechanics failed. With 96 hours of air capacity and temperatures at roughly freezing there is a good chance they die of hypothermia before the air runs out.
This is definitely an interesting question. I can’t speak to all the possibilities, but from my understanding if we assume that the passengers died from lack of oxygen or some other manner in...
This is definitely an interesting question. I can’t speak to all the possibilities, but from my understanding if we assume that the passengers died from lack of oxygen or some other manner in which the hull in intact it would start with a normal decomposition. The first decomposes are the body’s gut bacteria, which are anaerobic in nature. Typically during decomposition the body eventually bloats from the build up of gases such as methane and explodes. At this point a secondary population of aerobic or aero-tolerant soil microbes take over and continue the putrefaction process, outcompeting the anaerobic gut microbes. Of course with the craft running out of oxygen this won’t happen. Without knowing how clean the interior of the craft is, though I assume it isn’t, there may be a different population dynamic at play with the community that continues to break the bodies down. Granted I do not think that this would necessarily look different from a macro prospective. Many of the larger organisms that play roles in the decomposition process would be absent, and it’s hard to say what the humidity would be inside the craft. Overall I believe that the answer by @Maxi concerning decomposition in a sealed container in the fridge is a fair guess.
Though that does not control for temperature. If the climate control failed in a way that has caused the interior to freezer then bodies may be preserved until the hull fails, as the regular cast of decomposers wouldn’t be able to perform their duties.
Even if the climate system failed to the point of freezing, once the power ran out, the inside temperature would equilibrate to the surrounding water temperature which seems to be ~4 C if they're...
If the climate control failed in a way that has caused the interior to freezer then bodies may be preserved until the hull fails
Even if the climate system failed to the point of freezing, once the power ran out, the inside temperature would equilibrate to the surrounding water temperature which seems to be ~4 C if they're at the bottom.
Ah ok, I wasn’t sure what temperature it might end up. So the example given for something sealed in a fridge is pretty spot on then. Not a great picture for those inside, but definitely an...
Ah ok, I wasn’t sure what temperature it might end up. So the example given for something sealed in a fridge is pretty spot on then. Not a great picture for those inside, but definitely an interesting question.
Are we sure it's actually at the bottom? Despite its shoddy systems, it actually had several redundant systems that would allow it to surface including one that was time based like a deadman's...
Are we sure it's actually at the bottom? Despite its shoddy systems, it actually had several redundant systems that would allow it to surface including one that was time based like a deadman's switch. I think I read somewhere that it should ascend but might not reach the surface of the water, stopping a few meters below. Would that change the effects on the occupants if we altered our assumptions to assume they are at or slightly below the surface rather than 3800m down?
Another thing to think about is the bodies after the fact if the submarine fails. human bodies go through saponification when exposed to that much cold water. That's what happened to the bodies of...
Another thing to think about is the bodies after the fact if the submarine fails. human bodies go through saponification when exposed to that much cold water. That's what happened to the bodies of the Titanic wreck.
So if the submarine cracks and leaks or it just breaks apart from the pressure, that's what's likely to happen to the bodies. There is no way for them to get back up to the surface quickly enough even if they were Michael Phelps levels of amazing swimmers if they're at the bottom of the ocean.
Note that a submarine implosion is not like crushing a soda can in your fist. The hull will fail at a single point and then water rushes into the sub at supersonic speed....
The same thing that happens to most other organic matter that is sealed in a container and put in the fridge.
Ocean temperature should be around +3/+4 celcius, so that's the temperature that's going to exist inside the vessel.
You could probably model this if you wanted to by going out in to the forest and finding a dead mouse or bird an putting it into a mason jar and in the fridge. Functionally the same thing. You could add in some pieces of polyester, cotton and wool fabric to mimic the clothing the passangers would wear. Maybe some plastics or something too as there's bound to be some inside.
Your mason jar might eventually explode from pressure buildup, but that shouldn't happen with the submarine as the outside pressure will help keep it from exploding.
After a long enought time I recon the inside would just be a soup.
It's so weird when you think about how, in the far future, people might finally find it and would be greeted by the contents.
I wonder at what point the actual mechanicals fail and it's a 'pop' moment? How long would it take?
The pressure under 12k feet of water far exceeds the pressure any bio matter in a can could ever reach. If it will ever pop, it will pop inwards.
That could take a very long time, I think. The reason airframes for example have a limited service life is the pressure cycles. Compressing and releasing the hull causes it to get fragile as time goes on. But that won't happen to this sub anymore.
Both titanium and carbon fiber composites aren't easy to corrode, so that won't do it either. Possible exception if any of the hull penetrations (where pipes or wires need to lead from inside to outside) are not so corrosion resistant.
So while I can see that the hull might've failed when they first reached depth earlier this week, after that I don't think a hull failure is at all likely in the short term.
Granted.
I've been doing some light perusing of that vehicle and it doesn't seem like "longevity" was ever really baked in.
It's insane.
Some of the things they did are absolutely mind-boggling, at least to me. Like the nigh-uninspectable hull made of a fickle material. Or the bolted-shut-from-the-outside hatch. Or the weird way in which ballast is released in an emergency.
And then there's things that seem mind-boggling to many, but are actually fairly normal in the submarining world, but still seem scary. The fact that it's very cramped? Not unusual. The fact that communication with topside is difficult? Not unusual. In fact, VLF radio can only penetrate a few 10s of meters of seawater, while ELF can reach down farther, but the transmitters are the size of a football field. So you're basically left with acoustic transmissions, or umbilical cables. I'd assume acoustic transmission at 4km range to be rather bandwidth limited, and umbilical cables, while the preferred solution, come with obvious logistical challenges. So the fact that you can only communicate with topside via text isn't all too crazy.
The hatch sort of makes sense because you want to limit penetrations into the actual vessel. It also wouldn't make much difference if they could open it if they were underwater or being tossed around in the open sea. Opening it in either situation would lead to less than desirable results.
As far as the ballast - I just saw a report this morning that the lines securing the ballast should have actually corroded after 24 hours and released the ballast. Now, with all of the other sketchy stuff going on with the sub, perhaps the failsafe didn't actually function properly. But at least the intent was there.
Everything else, I agree is completely mind-boggling. The biggest of which is the lack of an emergency beacon if they did manage to surface, followed closely by the use of a viewport window that wasn't rated for the depths they'd be reaching. At this point, I'm under the assumption that there was a catastrophic failure and the sub imploded. At least that's a better alternative than slowly suffocating with your scared child and three other strangers.
There are ways to bolt them in that could still do allow them to get themselves out if they needed to without outside help. My husband points out that in the apollo vehicles (not 1 cause it had the same problem, the astronauts couldn't get out without outside help) they have explosive bolts. Don't know how that works but apparently it allows for people on the inside a way to get out without being unbolted from the outside.
I'm no biologist, but I seem to remember that the air you exhale still contains a good bit of oxygen, and it's the build-up of CO2 that's going to kill you before the oxygen truly runs out. I think. If I remember that correctly, there would still be a decent bit oxygen in the air.
Man just thinking about this situation is pretty horrific.
That's generally correct, but could depend on the life support system of the sub I guess. At 96h of air in there, I don't think it's possible to rely on ambient air but needs some sort of carbon dioxide scrubber. If that scrubber outlasts the O2 bottles, you'll end up with basically pure N2. This is the pleasant way to die; you just get sleepy and pass out. If the O2 bottles outlast the scrubber, you're going to end up with a N2 O2 CO2 mix, in that order of concentration. 20% O2 would presumably be what the life support system targets, and about 8% CO2 is what kills. Excess CO2 is extremely unpleasant. Try holding your breath until your lungs burn, now imagine that breathing doesn't fix it.
The other day I read that the Titan does have a CO2 scrubber system in place, but I don’t know a lot about how long it was intended to last. Probably not much (if at all) longer than the rest of the life support systems, though.
It also depends on what mechanics failed. With 96 hours of air capacity and temperatures at roughly freezing there is a good chance they die of hypothermia before the air runs out.
This is definitely an interesting question. I can’t speak to all the possibilities, but from my understanding if we assume that the passengers died from lack of oxygen or some other manner in which the hull in intact it would start with a normal decomposition. The first decomposes are the body’s gut bacteria, which are anaerobic in nature. Typically during decomposition the body eventually bloats from the build up of gases such as methane and explodes. At this point a secondary population of aerobic or aero-tolerant soil microbes take over and continue the putrefaction process, outcompeting the anaerobic gut microbes. Of course with the craft running out of oxygen this won’t happen. Without knowing how clean the interior of the craft is, though I assume it isn’t, there may be a different population dynamic at play with the community that continues to break the bodies down. Granted I do not think that this would necessarily look different from a macro prospective. Many of the larger organisms that play roles in the decomposition process would be absent, and it’s hard to say what the humidity would be inside the craft. Overall I believe that the answer by @Maxi concerning decomposition in a sealed container in the fridge is a fair guess.
Though that does not control for temperature. If the climate control failed in a way that has caused the interior to freezer then bodies may be preserved until the hull fails, as the regular cast of decomposers wouldn’t be able to perform their duties.
Even if the climate system failed to the point of freezing, once the power ran out, the inside temperature would equilibrate to the surrounding water temperature which seems to be ~4 C if they're at the bottom.
Ah ok, I wasn’t sure what temperature it might end up. So the example given for something sealed in a fridge is pretty spot on then. Not a great picture for those inside, but definitely an interesting question.
Are we sure it's actually at the bottom? Despite its shoddy systems, it actually had several redundant systems that would allow it to surface including one that was time based like a deadman's switch. I think I read somewhere that it should ascend but might not reach the surface of the water, stopping a few meters below. Would that change the effects on the occupants if we altered our assumptions to assume they are at or slightly below the surface rather than 3800m down?
Edit: I also found some brief discussion of the topic in this article: https://www.insider.com/titan-sub-likely-used-96-hours-oxygen-prospects-bleak-2023-6?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=insider-worldnews-sub-post
Another thing to think about is the bodies after the fact if the submarine fails. human bodies go through saponification when exposed to that much cold water. That's what happened to the bodies of the Titanic wreck.
So if the submarine cracks and leaks or it just breaks apart from the pressure, that's what's likely to happen to the bodies. There is no way for them to get back up to the surface quickly enough even if they were Michael Phelps levels of amazing swimmers if they're at the bottom of the ocean.
Note that a submarine implosion is not like crushing a soda can in your fist. The hull will fail at a single point and then water rushes into the sub at supersonic speed. https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-the-human-body-when-a-submarine-implodes
Probably something similar to a whalefall.