I'm a bit afraid of rebooting my computer right now. I get that it doesn't change anything, windows will still boot, and I'm using windows right now, but I don't want to deal with any more...
I'm a bit afraid of rebooting my computer right now. I get that it doesn't change anything, windows will still boot, and I'm using windows right now, but I don't want to deal with any more unexpected problem solving at the moment. :(
I take this as it's only booting Linux that is not working.
Tuesday’s update left dual-boot devices—meaning those configured to run both Windows and Linux—no longer able to boot into the latter when Secure Boot was enforced.
I take this as it's only booting Linux that is not working.
I recommend setting up a flash drive with Ventoy and then adding dozens of rescue and regular distros. Ventoy itself can boot to whatever system you want, circumventing whatever mess Windows has done.
I recommend setting up a flash drive with Ventoy and then adding dozens of rescue and regular distros. Ventoy itself can boot to whatever system you want, circumventing whatever mess Windows has done.
I'm buying a new computer by the end of the year for our house and retire our laptops. My wife needs Windows because she uses Autodesk software. I only use Linux. What is the best way to have both...
I'm buying a new computer by the end of the year for our house and retire our laptops. My wife needs Windows because she uses Autodesk software. I only use Linux.
What is the best way to have both that will give less headaches? Getting a motherboard with 2 nvme slots and install each OS in it's own SSD would be the best course?
Should be no need for 2 discreet boot drives, it's pretty standard to partition one in half and give each half to one OS. Most Linux distros these days will cleanly do this for you (install...
Should be no need for 2 discreet boot drives, it's pretty standard to partition one in half and give each half to one OS. Most Linux distros these days will cleanly do this for you (install Windows, then install Linux and it will give you a tool during install to shrink the Windows partitions to free up space for Linux).
There are any number of ways to do this, but that is the one I'm most familiar with.
Also, if you specifically want to go the route you described with 2 bootable drives, there's no reason that wouldn't work. At that point it is personal preference.
That's what I did in my dual boot early days and it worked fine most days, but I keep seeing people having problems with modern Windows messing up the Linux bootloader on updates. Since my wife...
That's what I did in my dual boot early days and it worked fine most days, but I keep seeing people having problems with modern Windows messing up the Linux bootloader on updates.
Since my wife can fill her SSD space pretty fast (she is not good on keeping things clean hehe) I just figured i'd buy 2 1TB drives and don't worry about her side of things.
But i'll keep that in mind. Buying one 2TB drive should be cheaper than 2x1TB.
Honest question, can windows update actually touch the Linux bootloader if it's partitioned? My impression is the partition would pretty effectively isolate the influence of the operating systems...
Honest question, can windows update actually touch the Linux bootloader if it's partitioned? My impression is the partition would pretty effectively isolate the influence of the operating systems from each other. But I ask in case I'm misunderstanding how OSes look at partitions vs physical drives.
Windows can touch all of the disk when it's running. The partitions make it kinda easy to not do it by mistake, but there's nothing stopping windows from formatting a linux drive or the other way...
Windows can touch all of the disk when it's running. The partitions make it kinda easy to not do it by mistake, but there's nothing stopping windows from formatting a linux drive or the other way around.
Modern systems use UEFI instead of BIOS. The UEFI expects devices to have an ESP, and efi system partition. It’s a small FAT partition that’s usually 100-500mb. It searches through that to decide...
Modern systems use UEFI instead of BIOS. The UEFI expects devices to have an ESP, and efi system partition. It’s a small FAT partition that’s usually 100-500mb. It searches through that to decide what system to boot. This is where you have grub/lilo/whatever systemd has these days/windows bootloader. Windows could in theory wipe grub out of the esp and overwrite it with the windows bootloader. In practice, I don’t think that has ever happened. What windows will do usually is tell UEFI to default to the windows bootloader. This screws up any sort of dual boot option that the user set up. Usually all it takes is telling UEFI to default to grub or whatever bootloader you set up.
I never checked whether Windows actually wiped GRUB, but years ago Windows 10 repeatedly broke it to the degree where it had to be either reinstalled or automatically reconfigured using the setup...
Windows could in theory wipe grub out of the esp and overwrite it with the windows bootloader. In practice, I don’t think that has ever happened.
I never checked whether Windows actually wiped GRUB, but years ago Windows 10 repeatedly broke it to the degree where it had to be either reinstalled or automatically reconfigured using the setup tool (don't remember). At that point it seemed like Windows thought that whatever is located in the first (FAT) partition is fair game. Like most Windows 10 issues, this only happened to some PCs, but when it did, it did so repeatedly.
I guess that's kind of my question too. Apparently something can happen since it's not the first time I hear horror stories about this kind of setup. I think the practicality of having two...
I guess that's kind of my question too. Apparently something can happen since it's not the first time I hear horror stories about this kind of setup.
I think the practicality of having two separate drives is that you can choose which to boot in the UEFI implementation of the motherboard itself instead of relying on the Linux bootloader.
For me the solution was to let Windows install its bootloader in the very first partition on the SSD drive, and then install Linux including its own boot partition with GRUB on the rest of the...
For me the solution was to let Windows install its bootloader in the very first partition on the SSD drive, and then install Linux including its own boot partition with GRUB on the rest of the drive, and set UEFI to boot into that (this was normally not possible with legacy boot, but UEFI should not have an issue). That way GRUB autogenerates a menu item for the Windows bootloader that seems like it has to be located at the very first partition, everything works (for me at least) and nothing gets broken.
When I installed Linux bootloader to the first partition, Windows kept fucking it up during (some) updates.
Personally I would (and do) keep Linux and Windows on separate drives, including having two separate EFI system partitions, one on each drive. For most people, the flow of setting this up would...
Personally I would (and do) keep Linux and Windows on separate drives, including having two separate EFI system partitions, one on each drive.
For most people, the flow of setting this up would be:
Install Windows on Drive1
Install Linux on Drive2
Set motherboard to boot Linux bootloader on Drive2
Linux bootloader automatically finds Windows bootloader on Drive1
Linux bootloaders gives you the choice of Linux or Windows at each boot
Some motherboards (maybe most new motherboards) seem to be able to just find both operating system bootloaders on their own. They will then give you the OS boot choice without you having to specify the Linux bootloader as the target (so steps 3, 4, and 5 are automatic). This does mean you won't be able to customize your bootloader screen though, such as raising or lowering the amount of time you have to choose what OS to boot. You also won't be able to use fancy commands on Linux to automatically reboot into Windows. Like with systemd-boot, I can run this command in the terminal to reboot into Windows automatically: systemctl reboot --boot-loader-entry=auto-windows
On older motherboards like mine, the steps might be different. On my old motherboard, my Linux bootloader won't automatically find the Windows bootloader and present it as a boot option (steps 4 and 5). You can read my confusing comment about it if you want, but my solution was to just copy the files from the Windows bootloader partition into the Linux bootloader partition. Here's an annotated example of lsblk's output on my system:
sda 476.9G disk
├─sda1 100M part (Windows EFI system partition)
├─sda2 16M part (Microsoft reserved partition)
├─sda3 476.1G part (Windows root/home partition C:)
└─sda4 720M part (Windows recovery environment)
nvme0n1 1.8T disk
├─nvme0n1p1 2G part /boot (Linux EFI system partition)
└─nvme0n1p2 1.8T part / (Linux root/home partition)
If you do choose to install Windows and Linux onto the same drive, and especially if you set Linux and Windows to share a single EFI system partition, I would strongly recommend taking some precautions to prevent Windows from overwriting the Linux bootloader.
Also, especially in this case, but also just as general advice for anyone running Linux or Windows, keep a spare USB stick with the live installation image of your OS on it. That way, if you do experience problems, you already have a live USB ready to go.
That's how I manage it (though with a desktop and a SATA drive for the Windows, not sure about laptop options for multiple nvme), though I had drives and slots to spare any way. Windows is too...
That's how I manage it (though with a desktop and a SATA drive for the Windows, not sure about laptop options for multiple nvme), though I had drives and slots to spare any way. Windows is too aggressive to trust it to safely share a drive, as demonstrated by the article. It's a bit extra, but I won't even install Windows with non-target drives plugged in.
As others noted, it shouldn't be necessary and you can dual boot off of one drive, I just don't trust Windows after two headaches too many.
Well Then. I have a seldom-use laptop I keep for field use which is dual-boot Linux Mint and Windows. I recently had cause to use it, and updated Mint, then updated Windows... and then failed to...
Well Then.
I have a seldom-use laptop I keep for field use which is dual-boot Linux Mint and Windows. I recently had cause to use it, and updated Mint, then updated Windows... and then failed to boot back into Linux. That was last Tuesday.
Those dicks!
At least my main desktop and my lab computers are Linux-only with no Windows to fsck things up.
Edit: I am still able to boot into Mint by selecting advanced boot and manually selecting the latest Kernel - it's still booting into some kind of 'limited / safe mode' boot I think, but that does let me get in. Though now my plan to roll back with timeshift probably won't help anything if the source cause is a Windows update.
Part of the weirdness is it's a GRUB update. The Windows patch is closing a hole that allows rootkit access. Honestly that it took 2 years is the more concerning part. It's definitely Microsoft's...
Part of the weirdness is it's a GRUB update. The Windows patch is closing a hole that allows rootkit access. Honestly that it took 2 years is the more concerning part.
It's definitely Microsoft's fault this is getting applied to dual boot systems when they said it wouldn't be. It also seems vaguely the various distro's fault that they're apparently not compliant with recent enough boot images. ( I probably got some detail wrong in there, I'm only vaguely aware of how SBAT works )
I'm a bit afraid of rebooting my computer right now. I get that it doesn't change anything, windows will still boot, and I'm using windows right now, but I don't want to deal with any more unexpected problem solving at the moment. :(
If I'm reading the article correctly, affected computers aren't able to boot to either OS!
I take this as it's only booting Linux that is not working.
Well spotted! I somehow overlooked that part.
I recommend setting up a flash drive with Ventoy and then adding dozens of rescue and regular distros. Ventoy itself can boot to whatever system you want, circumventing whatever mess Windows has done.
I'm buying a new computer by the end of the year for our house and retire our laptops. My wife needs Windows because she uses Autodesk software. I only use Linux.
What is the best way to have both that will give less headaches? Getting a motherboard with 2 nvme slots and install each OS in it's own SSD would be the best course?
Should be no need for 2 discreet boot drives, it's pretty standard to partition one in half and give each half to one OS. Most Linux distros these days will cleanly do this for you (install Windows, then install Linux and it will give you a tool during install to shrink the Windows partitions to free up space for Linux).
There are any number of ways to do this, but that is the one I'm most familiar with.
Also, if you specifically want to go the route you described with 2 bootable drives, there's no reason that wouldn't work. At that point it is personal preference.
That's what I did in my dual boot early days and it worked fine most days, but I keep seeing people having problems with modern Windows messing up the Linux bootloader on updates.
Since my wife can fill her SSD space pretty fast (she is not good on keeping things clean hehe) I just figured i'd buy 2 1TB drives and don't worry about her side of things.
But i'll keep that in mind. Buying one 2TB drive should be cheaper than 2x1TB.
Back when I dual-booted, my solution was to password-protect the firmware. I found that that stopped Windows from messing with the boot configuration.
Honest question, can windows update actually touch the Linux bootloader if it's partitioned? My impression is the partition would pretty effectively isolate the influence of the operating systems from each other. But I ask in case I'm misunderstanding how OSes look at partitions vs physical drives.
Windows can touch all of the disk when it's running. The partitions make it kinda easy to not do it by mistake, but there's nothing stopping windows from formatting a linux drive or the other way around.
Modern systems use UEFI instead of BIOS. The UEFI expects devices to have an ESP, and efi system partition. It’s a small FAT partition that’s usually 100-500mb. It searches through that to decide what system to boot. This is where you have grub/lilo/whatever systemd has these days/windows bootloader. Windows could in theory wipe grub out of the esp and overwrite it with the windows bootloader. In practice, I don’t think that has ever happened. What windows will do usually is tell UEFI to default to the windows bootloader. This screws up any sort of dual boot option that the user set up. Usually all it takes is telling UEFI to default to grub or whatever bootloader you set up.
I never checked whether Windows actually wiped GRUB, but years ago Windows 10 repeatedly broke it to the degree where it had to be either reinstalled or automatically reconfigured using the setup tool (don't remember). At that point it seemed like Windows thought that whatever is located in the first (FAT) partition is fair game. Like most Windows 10 issues, this only happened to some PCs, but when it did, it did so repeatedly.
I guess that's kind of my question too. Apparently something can happen since it's not the first time I hear horror stories about this kind of setup.
I think the practicality of having two separate drives is that you can choose which to boot in the UEFI implementation of the motherboard itself instead of relying on the Linux bootloader.
For me the solution was to let Windows install its bootloader in the very first partition on the SSD drive, and then install Linux including its own boot partition with GRUB on the rest of the drive, and set UEFI to boot into that (this was normally not possible with legacy boot, but UEFI should not have an issue). That way GRUB autogenerates a menu item for the Windows bootloader that seems like it has to be located at the very first partition, everything works (for me at least) and nothing gets broken.
When I installed Linux bootloader to the first partition, Windows kept fucking it up during (some) updates.
Personally I would (and do) keep Linux and Windows on separate drives, including having two separate EFI system partitions, one on each drive.
For most people, the flow of setting this up would be:
Some motherboards (maybe most new motherboards) seem to be able to just find both operating system bootloaders on their own. They will then give you the OS boot choice without you having to specify the Linux bootloader as the target (so steps 3, 4, and 5 are automatic). This does mean you won't be able to customize your bootloader screen though, such as raising or lowering the amount of time you have to choose what OS to boot. You also won't be able to use fancy commands on Linux to automatically reboot into Windows. Like with
systemd-boot, I can run this command in the terminal to reboot into Windows automatically:systemctl reboot --boot-loader-entry=auto-windowsOn older motherboards like mine, the steps might be different. On my old motherboard, my Linux bootloader won't automatically find the Windows bootloader and present it as a boot option (steps 4 and 5). You can read my confusing comment about it if you want, but my solution was to just copy the files from the Windows bootloader partition into the Linux bootloader partition. Here's an annotated example of
lsblk's output on my system:If you do choose to install Windows and Linux onto the same drive, and especially if you set Linux and Windows to share a single EFI system partition, I would strongly recommend taking some precautions to prevent Windows from overwriting the Linux bootloader.
Also, especially in this case, but also just as general advice for anyone running Linux or Windows, keep a spare USB stick with the live installation image of your OS on it. That way, if you do experience problems, you already have a live USB ready to go.
That's how I manage it (though with a desktop and a SATA drive for the Windows, not sure about laptop options for multiple nvme), though I had drives and slots to spare any way. Windows is too aggressive to trust it to safely share a drive, as demonstrated by the article. It's a bit extra, but I won't even install Windows with non-target drives plugged in.
As others noted, it shouldn't be necessary and you can dual boot off of one drive, I just don't trust Windows after two headaches too many.
Well Then.
I have a seldom-use laptop I keep for field use which is dual-boot Linux Mint and Windows. I recently had cause to use it, and updated Mint, then updated Windows... and then failed to boot back into Linux. That was last Tuesday.
Those dicks!
At least my main desktop and my lab computers are Linux-only with no Windows to fsck things up.
Edit: I am still able to boot into Mint by selecting advanced boot and manually selecting the latest Kernel - it's still booting into some kind of 'limited / safe mode' boot I think, but that does let me get in. Though now my plan to roll back with timeshift probably won't help anything if the source cause is a Windows update.
Part of the weirdness is it's a GRUB update. The Windows patch is closing a hole that allows rootkit access. Honestly that it took 2 years is the more concerning part.
It's definitely Microsoft's fault this is getting applied to dual boot systems when they said it wouldn't be. It also seems vaguely the various distro's fault that they're apparently not compliant with recent enough boot images. ( I probably got some detail wrong in there, I'm only vaguely aware of how SBAT works )
Anyone know if
systemd-bootis affected? (I use Nix btw)Does dual boot imply both OS are on the same drive? I.e. does this affect people with Windows and Linux on separate disks?
In this case it doesn't matter how your os:es are distributed over disks.