What a remarkable success story laid over a really depressing backdrop. It's outrageous a companies can sell such expensive yet unreliable systems and try to upsell you when the components they...
What a remarkable success story laid over a really depressing backdrop. It's outrageous a companies can sell such expensive yet unreliable systems and try to upsell you when the components they cheaped out on break. Just feels dishonest. Still, really nice to see someone fall down a rabbit hole and emerge from the other side with a fix and their sanity.
The problem in this case is not that it’s a particularly unreliable system, but that it’s an overly complex solution with poor support. The thing that the author did not mention directly but...
The problem in this case is not that it’s a particularly unreliable system, but that it’s an overly complex solution with poor support. The thing that the author did not mention directly but generally speaking if you need to replace an entire control system it means that the parts in question have been discontinued. Thus, the $400 tablet found in the back of the van; its new old stock.
This is unfortunately the state of industry for any large computer-controlled appliance built by small companies. We see this all the time in the hot tub industry. It’s often caused by the manufacturer using third-party purchased electronics, and that third party stops selling them. And wouldn’t you know it? Android tablets have a pitifully small support period.
Please keep in mind I don’t mean this to excuse the manufacturer for this system. HVAC systems seem to be dramatically more expensive than they need to be.
I fully agree with you here. Though I'd say that this situation is made even more ridiculous by the fact that it technically isn't limited hardware support that caused the issue. The only hardware...
I fully agree with you here. Though I'd say that this situation is made even more ridiculous by the fact that it technically isn't limited hardware support that caused the issue. The only hardware specific thing here is the choice to hide the USB connection, the rest is all software.
So in theory they could have done things differently:
Do it right from the start. Not use a proprietary connection and just use USB.
Given the current situation, provide a USB to their proprietary connection adapter.
Then as far as the software goes:
Remove the hardware limitation entirely, so customers can just source their own tablet outside warranty.
Keep the limitation in, but instead of locking out unknown hardware, show a big ass warning when the app is started.
Expand the limitation to a few newer tablets that have been tested and point customers outside warranty to those.
What I am getting at is that, from where I am standing, it is entirely possible to provide better support and experience to their customers. I don't want to assume money grabbing malice out of the gate here. Certainly not when it seems they eventually went through the steps of sourcing an older tablet.
But at the very least, it showcases a certain deficit in their way of working that is not entirely explained by their hardware sourcing practices.
If I had to speculate, I think a lot of these companies are still very much run by hardware first people. They want to provide software offerings because they see the appeal but they don't invest nearly the same time and effort in engineering in that area. Your hot tub mention also made me think about last weeks Wan show (relevant timestamp linked) where someone asked about pool automation.
I would argue as someone who worked alongside A/C installers and repairmen that yes it's still hardware focused, but mostly for a good reason. I'm also my families IT guy, and get called all the...
I would argue as someone who worked alongside A/C installers and repairmen that yes it's still hardware focused, but mostly for a good reason. I'm also my families IT guy, and get called all the times about computer issues my older family cannot solve. If this happened with their A/C on the regular in the Southern US where I live? We would have real problems. The software side has always been buggy, especially because it's tacked on to older style hardware.
The other issue is that a lot of the trades are older, less technology savvy folks. You would not want some of these guys to set up a "modern" smart AC system, no offense to them. One of my old companies would install all of the physical equipment but leave the WiFi setup to the customer just to avoid liability issues with it. Kinda a headache.
Maybe if we start investing more in the trades again, which we are starting to see, and encouraging the next generation to go to a trade school over college in some situations, we will see more of the changes you suggested.
I think that we are talking about different (although adjacent) topics here. I can see how installation companies having trouble installing "modern" "smart" systems or diagnosing issues with them....
I think that we are talking about different (although adjacent) topics here. I can see how installation companies having trouble installing "modern" "smart" systems or diagnosing issues with them.
However, that is largely a separate issue from the manufacture not considering future proofing the software side of things.
In the current situation, I can see that an A/C installer would also shrug and go along with the "well, it is out of warranty and the original product is no longer available". However, even that can be largely solved on the manufacture side of things if they went for one of the routes I outlined. Simply by having a service manual where it explicitly mentions the option to replace the tablet with a generic one.
At the very least, this will provide decently tech-savvy customers with the option to do it themselves without having to go through the steps the article author needed.
Yeah I definitely think we need better regulation in tech in general in terms of right to repair, listen repair parts and company's labeling when they change components in say personal computing....
Yeah I definitely think we need better regulation in tech in general in terms of right to repair, listen repair parts and company's labeling when they change components in say personal computing. There is definitely a lot of updating and upgrading that could be done with A/C components.
Or another simple law: Have sufficient hardware documentation and software unlocks be mandatory submissions to relevant regulatory bodies which are then permitted to hand to downstream customers...
Or another simple law:
Have sufficient hardware documentation and software unlocks be mandatory submissions to relevant regulatory bodies which are then permitted to hand to downstream customers at their discretion for the purposes of reverse engineering.
I would say that the people running the show at this type of operation are the accountants, or an overreaching C-suite. They decided they didn’t want to spend the money on engineers who could make...
I would say that the people running the show at this type of operation are the accountants, or an overreaching C-suite. They decided they didn’t want to spend the money on engineers who could make a simple embedded system, instead opting for cheaper app developers. They didn’t hire designers to make the interface panel, they chose a cheap OEM who could make a $50 tablet and asked if they could put a demi-proprietary jack on it if they spent another few bucks on it. As a result they lost the ability to actually support it in a very meaningful way and their customers suffer for it instead. When the OEM stopped making those tablets for whatever reason, they had no real choice but to pull them from the market and set aside their stock of them for warranty claims. In the meanwhile their customers who are out of warranty suffer.
In the hot tub industry, there are two companies who make the equipment for most manufacturers, Gecko and Balboa. Unlike the OEM who made those tablets, they actually design all of their hardware and software specifically for that application, and they tend to have reasonably long runs on their products; I’d estimate about 20 years or so. They are proprietary as heck, but it gives advantages of reliability and cost effectiveness because it’s so well integrated and refined; things are not likely to break down.
But they do still get discontinued. And when that happens, the hot tub manufacturers typically have long lists of parts to tell us to buy, basically all of the new equipment they are using in their current run of spas. It’s pretty common for us to recommend installing a third party pack at that point: it may need more plumbing work but it’s much cheaper.
If your salespeople don't understand the product/service, they will fail to make sales. I've seen this in Tech and heard it from others. I'm sure their sales people don't want to have to explain...
If your salespeople don't understand the product/service, they will fail to make sales. I've seen this in Tech and heard it from others.
I'm sure their sales people don't want to have to explain to customers that they can use any old Android tablet—likely because they themselves know little to anything about Android tablets. They want to sell turnkey working systems.
Like can you imagine ADT lettjng you use commodity cameras and sensors, even though they could probably be made to work with ADT? Their salespeople wouldn't have a clue. Neither would their support people.
That said, I don't have much sympathy for these businesses. These are the same businesses that will charge you $4k for a control board for your furnace/heat pump when the board fails because someone did a shit job soldering a single component on. A single board must make furnaces faster and less error prone to assemble but makes the cost of ownership suck.
There seems to be no accountability for cost of ownership any more. Most products are built for crap. It's not necessarily planned obsolescence so much as it is making production as cheap as possible for maximum profit. The net effect, however, is often the same.
I probably shouldn't be, but I'm also surprised that the tablet is so critical tk the control system. Which is probably because of all the louvered air controls. But with a conventional system you...
I probably shouldn't be, but I'm also surprised that the tablet is so critical tk the control system. Which is probably because of all the louvered air controls. But with a conventional system you can swap out a thermostat and control the system no problem. That's a pretty painless process. But it sounds like this company is trying to bypass something standard like a thermostat in favor of being able to monopolize selling every point if the system. Not sure how well you could get the same features with a drop in place thermostat or even an Ecobee smart thermostat, but it feels pretty disengenous if they're projecting the image that this way is the best way. Cause it's obviously not as a consumer.
Manufacturers across most industries have no vested interest in making things that will work reliably long-term unless they can sell a service contract (which can be a scam in and of itself - but...
Manufacturers across most industries have no vested interest in making things that will work reliably long-term unless they can sell a service contract (which can be a scam in and of itself - but that's another story altogether). That's why it's important to have strong consumer protection laws in place.
(Akir shakes his fists angrily at the US Congress)
In my opinion, right to repair isn't just about physically being able to open the device without destroying it but also feasibly being able to repair something, like an on/off switch, without a...
In my opinion, right to repair isn't just about physically being able to open the device without destroying it but also feasibly being able to repair something, like an on/off switch, without a degree in electrical engineering.
Yes and no. I'd say the larger a given widget is the more reasonable it is to require having simple functions like on/offs repairable with minimal training (see the capacitor in AC units).
Yes and no. I'd say the larger a given widget is the more reasonable it is to require having simple functions like on/offs repairable with minimal training (see the capacitor in AC units).
I can't think of a better case for just using basic hardware that's worked over 80+ whatever years. Who needs a tablet or app to control their AC? You turn it on, turn it off, set it to a range of...
I can't think of a better case for just using basic hardware that's worked over 80+ whatever years.
Who needs a tablet or app to control their AC?
You turn it on, turn it off, set it to a range of temperature, all controlled with mostly mechanical parts and mechanisms.
Why overcomplicate an already fairly simple system that works? Tacking apps and options onto everything isn't always the answer.
I use an app (Daikin's): I have five units to deal with and the app allows me to check all temperatures and settings at one glance and toggle states with a quick series of taps without having to...
I use an app (Daikin's):
I have five units to deal with and the app allows me to check all temperatures and settings at one glance and toggle states with a quick series of taps without having to physically go around into range of each one carrying a bundle of IR remotes.
I can also control things from outside the house, meaning I can turn the units off remotely if I forget them on, or turn them on before arrival, or reliable check the temperature in the house while elsewhere.
The app tracks power consumption and displays aggregate statistics.
That said, there are several disadvantages:
The core functionality has bad UX. After toggling states, the AP tends to get confused about whether it has toggled or not, presumably until information has been sent to the unit and back to the app by the way of some remote server somewhere, so you can refresh and it will show the incorrect state, or just do so automatically.
Sometimes nothing happens if you tap a button and no feedback is provided (probably networking delays too).
It takes forever to open, for some reason (more networking delays? I have an excellent internet connection and this doesn't happen with anything else. Is the server in Japan?)
They will happily stop supporting your phone/tablet if they deem it too old, even though app availability is "sold" as an advantage of their units and new devices cost a lot of money.
While I agree that this system may be overkill, being about to program your thermostat can result in huge energy savings. Especially in areas that raise the cost of power during peak times, being...
While I agree that this system may be overkill, being about to program your thermostat can result in huge energy savings. Especially in areas that raise the cost of power during peak times, being able to adjust it to use less power (especially if nobody is home) can make a serious dent in your power bill.
Mine has no connectivity, but I'm very happy to be able to preset it by time and day of the week.
I don't think this is quite right. The features this system offers are useful (even if my reaction to my home HVAC being accessible to third parties over the Internet is visceral horror and...
I don't think this is quite right. The features this system offers are useful (even if my reaction to my home HVAC being accessible to third parties over the Internet is visceral horror and disgust). The problem isn't so much that it offers the features as that every single accessible interface needs to be an open standard. If the tablet had been hooked up via a standard USB connection which had provided some reasonable standard device class, and the apps had been standard Android apps without janky, mostly-wrong platform detection, this entire article would have telescoped to "I plugged in my unused old tablet and taped it to the wall".
I use Honeywell wifi thermostats and a corresponding app to control them. It's really nice to be able to adjust things when I'm on my way home from somewhere. There's also a neat side effect where...
I use Honeywell wifi thermostats and a corresponding app to control them. It's really nice to be able to adjust things when I'm on my way home from somewhere. There's also a neat side effect where I get notified when wither the power or internet goes down at my house.
I installed a new ventulation system in our house a couple of years ago. It came with a proprietary little touch screen thingy for controlling the system, but it also came with a booklet...
I installed a new ventulation system in our house a couple of years ago. It came with a proprietary little touch screen thingy for controlling the system, but it also came with a booklet describing what every wire in the control connection and every connector on the motherboard did. Seems like a good way to do it.
What a remarkable success story laid over a really depressing backdrop. It's outrageous a companies can sell such expensive yet unreliable systems and try to upsell you when the components they cheaped out on break. Just feels dishonest. Still, really nice to see someone fall down a rabbit hole and emerge from the other side with a fix and their sanity.
The problem in this case is not that it’s a particularly unreliable system, but that it’s an overly complex solution with poor support. The thing that the author did not mention directly but generally speaking if you need to replace an entire control system it means that the parts in question have been discontinued. Thus, the $400 tablet found in the back of the van; its new old stock.
This is unfortunately the state of industry for any large computer-controlled appliance built by small companies. We see this all the time in the hot tub industry. It’s often caused by the manufacturer using third-party purchased electronics, and that third party stops selling them. And wouldn’t you know it? Android tablets have a pitifully small support period.
Please keep in mind I don’t mean this to excuse the manufacturer for this system. HVAC systems seem to be dramatically more expensive than they need to be.
I fully agree with you here. Though I'd say that this situation is made even more ridiculous by the fact that it technically isn't limited hardware support that caused the issue. The only hardware specific thing here is the choice to hide the USB connection, the rest is all software.
So in theory they could have done things differently:
Then as far as the software goes:
What I am getting at is that, from where I am standing, it is entirely possible to provide better support and experience to their customers. I don't want to assume money grabbing malice out of the gate here. Certainly not when it seems they eventually went through the steps of sourcing an older tablet.
But at the very least, it showcases a certain deficit in their way of working that is not entirely explained by their hardware sourcing practices.
If I had to speculate, I think a lot of these companies are still very much run by hardware first people. They want to provide software offerings because they see the appeal but they don't invest nearly the same time and effort in engineering in that area. Your hot tub mention also made me think about last weeks Wan show (relevant timestamp linked) where someone asked about pool automation.
I would argue as someone who worked alongside A/C installers and repairmen that yes it's still hardware focused, but mostly for a good reason. I'm also my families IT guy, and get called all the times about computer issues my older family cannot solve. If this happened with their A/C on the regular in the Southern US where I live? We would have real problems. The software side has always been buggy, especially because it's tacked on to older style hardware.
The other issue is that a lot of the trades are older, less technology savvy folks. You would not want some of these guys to set up a "modern" smart AC system, no offense to them. One of my old companies would install all of the physical equipment but leave the WiFi setup to the customer just to avoid liability issues with it. Kinda a headache.
Maybe if we start investing more in the trades again, which we are starting to see, and encouraging the next generation to go to a trade school over college in some situations, we will see more of the changes you suggested.
I think that we are talking about different (although adjacent) topics here. I can see how installation companies having trouble installing "modern" "smart" systems or diagnosing issues with them.
However, that is largely a separate issue from the manufacture not considering future proofing the software side of things.
In the current situation, I can see that an A/C installer would also shrug and go along with the "well, it is out of warranty and the original product is no longer available". However, even that can be largely solved on the manufacture side of things if they went for one of the routes I outlined. Simply by having a service manual where it explicitly mentions the option to replace the tablet with a generic one.
At the very least, this will provide decently tech-savvy customers with the option to do it themselves without having to go through the steps the article author needed.
Yeah I definitely think we need better regulation in tech in general in terms of right to repair, listen repair parts and company's labeling when they change components in say personal computing. There is definitely a lot of updating and upgrading that could be done with A/C components.
Or another simple law:
Have sufficient hardware documentation and software unlocks be mandatory submissions to relevant regulatory bodies which are then permitted to hand to downstream customers at their discretion for the purposes of reverse engineering.
I would say that the people running the show at this type of operation are the accountants, or an overreaching C-suite. They decided they didn’t want to spend the money on engineers who could make a simple embedded system, instead opting for cheaper app developers. They didn’t hire designers to make the interface panel, they chose a cheap OEM who could make a $50 tablet and asked if they could put a demi-proprietary jack on it if they spent another few bucks on it. As a result they lost the ability to actually support it in a very meaningful way and their customers suffer for it instead. When the OEM stopped making those tablets for whatever reason, they had no real choice but to pull them from the market and set aside their stock of them for warranty claims. In the meanwhile their customers who are out of warranty suffer.
In the hot tub industry, there are two companies who make the equipment for most manufacturers, Gecko and Balboa. Unlike the OEM who made those tablets, they actually design all of their hardware and software specifically for that application, and they tend to have reasonably long runs on their products; I’d estimate about 20 years or so. They are proprietary as heck, but it gives advantages of reliability and cost effectiveness because it’s so well integrated and refined; things are not likely to break down.
But they do still get discontinued. And when that happens, the hot tub manufacturers typically have long lists of parts to tell us to buy, basically all of the new equipment they are using in their current run of spas. It’s pretty common for us to recommend installing a third party pack at that point: it may need more plumbing work but it’s much cheaper.
If your salespeople don't understand the product/service, they will fail to make sales. I've seen this in Tech and heard it from others.
I'm sure their sales people don't want to have to explain to customers that they can use any old Android tablet—likely because they themselves know little to anything about Android tablets. They want to sell turnkey working systems.
Like can you imagine ADT lettjng you use commodity cameras and sensors, even though they could probably be made to work with ADT? Their salespeople wouldn't have a clue. Neither would their support people.
That said, I don't have much sympathy for these businesses. These are the same businesses that will charge you $4k for a control board for your furnace/heat pump when the board fails because someone did a shit job soldering a single component on. A single board must make furnaces faster and less error prone to assemble but makes the cost of ownership suck.
There seems to be no accountability for cost of ownership any more. Most products are built for crap. It's not necessarily planned obsolescence so much as it is making production as cheap as possible for maximum profit. The net effect, however, is often the same.
I probably shouldn't be, but I'm also surprised that the tablet is so critical tk the control system. Which is probably because of all the louvered air controls. But with a conventional system you can swap out a thermostat and control the system no problem. That's a pretty painless process. But it sounds like this company is trying to bypass something standard like a thermostat in favor of being able to monopolize selling every point if the system. Not sure how well you could get the same features with a drop in place thermostat or even an Ecobee smart thermostat, but it feels pretty disengenous if they're projecting the image that this way is the best way. Cause it's obviously not as a consumer.
Manufacturers across most industries have no vested interest in making things that will work reliably long-term unless they can sell a service contract (which can be a scam in and of itself - but that's another story altogether). That's why it's important to have strong consumer protection laws in place.
(Akir shakes his fists angrily at the US Congress)
In my opinion, right to repair isn't just about physically being able to open the device without destroying it but also feasibly being able to repair something, like an on/off switch, without a degree in electrical engineering.
Yes and no. I'd say the larger a given widget is the more reasonable it is to require having simple functions like on/offs repairable with minimal training (see the capacitor in AC units).
I can't think of a better case for just using basic hardware that's worked over 80+ whatever years.
Who needs a tablet or app to control their AC?
You turn it on, turn it off, set it to a range of temperature, all controlled with mostly mechanical parts and mechanisms.
Why overcomplicate an already fairly simple system that works? Tacking apps and options onto everything isn't always the answer.
I use an app (Daikin's):
That said, there are several disadvantages:
While I agree that this system may be overkill, being about to program your thermostat can result in huge energy savings. Especially in areas that raise the cost of power during peak times, being able to adjust it to use less power (especially if nobody is home) can make a serious dent in your power bill.
Mine has no connectivity, but I'm very happy to be able to preset it by time and day of the week.
I don't think this is quite right. The features this system offers are useful (even if my reaction to my home HVAC being accessible to third parties over the Internet is visceral horror and disgust). The problem isn't so much that it offers the features as that every single accessible interface needs to be an open standard. If the tablet had been hooked up via a standard USB connection which had provided some reasonable standard device class, and the apps had been standard Android apps without janky, mostly-wrong platform detection, this entire article would have telescoped to "I plugged in my unused old tablet and taped it to the wall".
I use Honeywell wifi thermostats and a corresponding app to control them. It's really nice to be able to adjust things when I'm on my way home from somewhere. There's also a neat side effect where I get notified when wither the power or internet goes down at my house.
I installed a new ventulation system in our house a couple of years ago. It came with a proprietary little touch screen thingy for controlling the system, but it also came with a booklet describing what every wire in the control connection and every connector on the motherboard did. Seems like a good way to do it.